Melee Stage Discussion (Sticky?)

[Divinokage]

You know? Wavedash to shine = death.

Any stage that you can kill someone off the side while being on stage should be auto-banned.

 

[Zelof]

Great Bay, Venom, and Fourside should be legal. Discuss.

 

[TheGoat]

You know? Wavedash to shine = death.

Any stage that you can kill someone off the side while being on stage should be auto-banned.

Ah....damn fox.

Great Bay, Venom, and Fourside should be legal. Discuss.

Great bay wont work cuz fox and falco have lasers and fantasm. Fourside is ********. Venom is a fun map so maybe...

 

[DualCats]

Venom has mysterious troll-walls blocking the blastzones. :< (also shine infinites etc. )

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Why have stage bans at all when you can just only play on the good stages? Does adding stages actually add depth?

Yes, it adds depth. It adds more situations to the game that can come up while still retaining the old ones and not over-centralizing gameplay around the new ones (as long as you have the right number of stage bans). That's what I've been trying to say.

You know? Wavedash to shine = death.

Any stage that you can kill someone off the side while being on stage should be auto-banned.

For that to work, you need to be in-between your opponent and the blast-zone. That is almost unavoidable on a stage like, for example, Yoshi's Island (Melee).

On a stage like MKII, though, you can still safely approach the Fox relatively safely (and it's high risk-high reward, the Fox is hanging around near the walk-off to try and get a Shine > Death, so he can die pretty easily from Peach's Fthrow, Marth's Fsmash, etc...)

Great Bay, Venom, and Fourside should be legal. Discuss.

Great Bay has circle camping.

Venom has camping behind the walls (almost impossible to beat Marth if he gets the lead).

Fourside has wall-jump camping, run-away camping and Fox's shine infinites.

Dang... I never thought of that. Grim knows his ****!

<3

I've been doing this on the Brawl Stage Discussion boards for over 2 years now, so I've picked up a few things xD

 

[Divinokage]

On a stage like MKII, though, you can still safely approach the Fox relatively safely (and it's high risk-high reward, the Fox is hanging around near the walk-off to try and get a Shine > Death, so he can die pretty easily from Peach's Fthrow, Marth's Fsmash, etc...)

Exactly, you said it yourself. Do you really believe one hit kill like this adds depth? Let's just sit near the blastzone until you one hit kill each other over and over, that sounds like a lot of fun.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

*Jigglypuff's Down Special*

And you'll only be getting OHKOs if someone is camping the walk-off in the hope of getting a OHKO on their opponent.

Suggesting that there'll be OHKOs "over and over" and that there'll be no other combat is sort-of like suggesting that Jigglypuff mains only use Rest.

 

[Lovage]

LOL at comparing landing marths fsmash on that tiny side of the stage to landing a drill with fox

COMEON BRO

THESE STAGES SUCK ABSOLUTE DONKEY **** AND WE ALL KNOW IT

 

[Divinokage]

*Jigglypuff's Down Special*

And you'll only be getting OHKOs if someone is camping the walk-off in the hope of getting a OHKO on their opponent.

Suggesting that there'll be OHKOs "over and over" and that there'll be no other combat is sort-of like suggesting that Jigglypuff mains only use Rest.

Why wouldn't I want to do that vs lower skilled players or even equally skilled players? I can abuse this tactic pretty easily, just one good read and it's done. There won't be much happening in stages like this, couple of hits and then death every single time since the stage is so small too. Since there's a ledge also on both sides, it's even easier to techchase and kill someone in 2 seconds. Just one hit can bring them into a ****ty position. And then what if you are in the hole? Whoops garanteed edgeguard, too easy. There's also not really any edgeguarding done with those stages since I believe it's part of the game as a whole.

I don't think it promotes actual tactics, it promotes using broken strategies.. We want as a standard to be as fair as possible without actually skewing any matchups to the point where it's unplayable which is why using only neutrals actually adds variety to every character. A low tier will be a lot more viable in tournament play and that's what we want, you want to give players that love playing their character a chance to win fairly and also bring more new people in since it will be inspiring that way.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I'm with Lovage. Nothing will change out of these posts anyway. The only way any of this stage changing would work is if it was posted in the MBR...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'll reply in the morning, can't be bothered tonight.

 

[Cemetery]

I liked the criteria Grim posted.

However, the stage dilemma is probably working out perfectly fine this way. I would love Mute City back, and while rampant overcentralization may be present, I have never run into considerable amounts of Peach or Jigglypuff players. I also don't think Mute City is that broken, and essentially, a counter-pick is supposed to strengthen your character of choice.

Rainbow Cruise works exceptionally well for Fox, yet we don't ban that. Fox also never wins tournaments. The opposing player just needs to ban Mute City on game 2 if they win against aforementioned characters.

Overall, there are several different matchup spreads. It adds depth.

 

[Slashy]

Why isn't Mushroom Kingdom 2 used in singles or Yoshi's Island?

 

[KaptenKagg]

I don't see what's wrong with the current stage list...

some people are just too salty

yhea, like how america started banning mute city after genesis but kept far more ******** stages like rainbow ride.
now thats salt in its purest form.

Wallshines requires perfect execution, if not, a mistake should result in getting KO'd (from an IC players perspective who has played those stages alot, since they are my favorites in tournament matches).

Camping bair is in no way unbeatable, there is even ledges for invincibility to promote approaching there.

As IC I just desynch Nana to charge a fsmash, while watching if theres a jump for a back air, if not, just grabs the ledge and hit/force them to try getting another position.


More then one stageban does however work perfecly with more stages, allowing more strategic play and less repetive play.

yes, everyone who knows you and has discussed stages with you know for a 100% certain fact that you ONLY consider these things from an ic players perspective. no need to remind anyone.
"ban dl, because cf can time ic's on that stage ;(". shut up, its one matchup. with a ****ty character that is barely tourny viable and likes penis (ics are gay). you say it might be possible in a handful of other matchups but thats in the theories of your small head.

also perfectly infinite:ing someone isnt even that hard w/ fox, and its stupidly easy to get a shine, you only want it on because its good for ic's

So I was talking to Taj and Forward and some other AZ pros about this at a tourney and Taj had an interesting idea, although i dont know if it originated with him.

Why not add more CP stages, such as Mute or KJ, and then have two options for bans. Either allow someone to ban one neutral, or to ban ALL CPs. basically, if you hate all cps, you have the option of banning them all but then your opponent gets to choose any of the neutrals he wants (which in most cases allows for a character advantage like floaties still have dreamland, etc...) What this allows for is a more liberal counterpick stage list. Obviously there are cons like if you are in love with CPs but it is a good way to get certain stages included that people otherwise wouldnt consider as CPs

@ stiig we had the ruleset of either banning 1 neutral or 2 cps
having it so that you ban ALL cps is ****ing ********, because then the first person banning will get a massive disadvantage, since in alot of cases both players will want to ban (some of) the cps.

 

[Bones0]

I'm amazed how people are STILL arguing about what counterpicks should be banned or unbanned. Like I've said a million times:

Counterpicks are inherently an uncompetitive way to choose stages.

Allowing counterpicks makes games less fair; that is WHY they are considered counterpicks. Arguing for a bunch of legal stages with a bunch of stage bans is not only pointless because they will be banned all the time anyway, but it isn't fair anyway. If all the stages were legal and each player had a **** ton of bans, Fox would easily dominate because he has more stages that he can win easily on than other characters (walls to shine against, walk-offs to get waveshine kills, etc.).

Do people understand why stages like Mute City and Corneria are banned? It is because they are so unfair for certain characters that it basically forces players to waste their ban on it. None of the neutrals (BF, DL, FD, FoD, and even PS, and sometimes KJ) are so bad that they are instant banned. Obviously some matchups have insta-bans (Falco vs. Marth, I ban FD every time, no questions asked), but for most matchups these stages can ben considered an advantage either way. I have seen Peach players counterpick DL against Falcos, and I have also seen them ban and strike it vs. Falcos. Which neutral is the best decision is heavily based on personal preference and specific playstyle issues (a Peach may counterpick a Fox to YS if they are really campy and utilize gimps but bad at killing off the top). Stages outside of the core neutrals are VERY matchup dependent and have little variability in whose advantage they will be in.

I'm starting to ramble, so I'll just end with this point:

There is no point adding stages in if they will be banned 99% of matches anyway. The goal of striking and bannings is to ensure players play on the most fair and evenly matched stages available. Anything beyond that will only serve to make sets a best of 1 as the first match will be fair, but the second and third will just be easy wins in either player's favor.

 

[Tirno]

From a competitive standpoint, we shouldn't be adding more situations/spreads/etc. for the sake of variety. In chess, white has the advantage, and they alternate colors to minimize the effect. You don't see anybody say, "Hey, let's add other ways to tip the scales to the rule set!" Competitively, anything that adds imbalance is something to avoided or minimized.

I don't see why some people see the presence of inevitable stage advantages in Melee as a sign that we should include every stage just short of broken. At Pound 5, I was glad to see Grand Finals played out without stages like Mute City or Rainbow Cruise. I got to see a highly competitive set of matches between two extremely skilled players, without stages getting in the way of balanced, fair matches.

The only reason from a competitive standpoint to make a stage legal is if it increases depth/variety, but not at the expense of balance. If someone can come up with a rule set that doesn't hurt balance while increasing the number of legal stages, more power to you. However, it's still going to be an uphill battle to convince people to switch to a more complicated counterpicking system just so we can ban imbalanced stages ourselves, every set.

Edit: Bones0 beat me to it, haha.

 

[Merkovski]

I'm amazed how people are STILL arguing about what counterpicks should be banned or unbanned. Like I've said a million times:

Counterpicks are inherently an uncompetitive way to choose stages.

Allowing counterpicks makes games less fair; that is WHY they are considered counterpicks.

Yes. I understand Grim's whole purpose of this thread; he wants the most objectively competitive stage system that will be most accurate in determining the best player in any given tournament (best player gets 1st place).

BUT, Bones0's point is how it is, and I don't see any way around it. Having a counterpick system is inherently uncompetitive, but it's also inherently strategic. Isn't strategy a part of competition? Let's say a less skilled player wins finals against a pro mostly due to the counterpick he chose. Is that unfair? I don't think it is. A "pro" is expected to be just that, a pro. Meaning they' re expected to be prepared for anything that's thrown at them, and to handle it to their best ability. If they're not comfortable on a certain stage, then that's on them.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think its more important for the strategy to be in the single game, not for the strategy to revolve around checkmating your opponent with stages, while when played the stage makes the match-ups very skewed.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I've already said that I don't support counter-picks...

 

[Smasher89]

Venom was banned due to link in NTSC, and I fully support that ban since Link is just ridiculus in a way he is broken(one strategy means win) on that stage.

 

[Marth307]

I'd like to ask what everyone thinks of...MUTE CITY

 

[Merkovski]

I'd like to ask what everyone thinks of...MUTE CITY

The small platform forces pressure on both opponents, which is an interesting dynamic. Lack of edges gives automatic advantage for certain characters (puff, peach), but I still think it's a good counterpick.

 

[Slashy]

If a player needs to ban a stage due to the match up, then that is a drawback to picking the character.

 

[Tirno]

Saying it's a character flaw doesn't address anything. A character's matchups are directly affected by the ruleset. Most of the cast's inability to catch a campy Fox is only as much as a flaw as we make it. Same with characters who need ledges to have a chance at recovering.

As for Mute City, I'm pretty sure Peach/Puff already have even or better matchups with the majority of the cast on the neutral stage set. Adding it would only serve to create imbalance in what should be even matchups.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Venom was banned due to link in NTSC, and I fully support that ban since Link is just ridiculus in a way he is broken(one strategy means win) on that stage.

Marth seems more broken here than Link...

 

[Marth307]

why dont tourneys just use the random button for stages??Dont get angry with me i seriously want to know why a stage isnt just picked at random

 

[Cemetery]

How is Link broken on Venom?

 

[Bones0]

why dont tourneys just use the random button for stages??Dont get angry with me i seriously want to know why a stage isnt just picked at random

Random was used back when the stage list was really huge, but now stage striking has replaced it. Striking stages is just when you take turns knocking off stages until you have 1 left. That is typically a very balanced stage because each player had a say in what stages would be unfair for the matchup. If we just used random, people might get wins solely based on luck. For instance, Marth destroys Falco on Final Destination pretty easily cause of his chain grab, so if a Marth and Falco play in tournament, it would be dumb for the Falco player to lose because he simply got unlucky and the random button chose FD.

 

[Marth307]

ok so is there like an offical ban list posted somewhere i can look @?

 

[Bones0]

I think the Melee Back Room decided on a suggested stage list, but from what I've seen tournament stages are almost entirely up to how the TO feels. I've been to recent ones where they had Mute City and Rainbow Cruise, but the last tourney I hosted I only had the 5 neutrals + PS and KJ available for singles.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

Hypothetical if you had to have a serious match on a banned stage, which one would you chose, and why?

 

[Marth307]

Idk if its banned but i would pick Onett if it was my choice....why?I like the BGM

 

[Bones0]

Hypothetical if you had to have a serious match on a banned stage, which one would you chose, and why?

Green Greens, then Jungle Japes, then Flat Zone.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hypothetical if you had to have a serious match on a banned stage, which one would you chose, and why?

Rainbow Cruise. I have spent so much time on that stage that it will always be my favorite stage to play on.

 

[Doser]

Hypothetical if you had to have a serious match on a banned stage, which one would you chose, and why?

Peach's Castle, Rainbow Cruise (if it counts), or Green Greens.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Onett or Mushroom Kingdom II, depending on the match-up.

 

[Smasher89]

How is Link broken on Venom?

Something with this glitch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdrA82T-rZI

 

[Cemetery]

I had no idea any of that was possible. Thanks for the link.

Most of those glitches are situational though, and a few more directly require items. Still, understandable. Also, if I needed to play on a banned stage, I'd probably pick Fox and go to Brinstar Depths. Good game.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

None of those glitches come even close to making Link "broken" on the stage.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

i want to get back to talking about mute city, i want someone to explain to me or give me a link to a thread that explains why it is banned. I also want to say i think the stage gives an advantage to characters such as peach and jiggs but i dont think the advantage is enough to warrant banning that stage.