Melee Stage Discussion (Sticky?)

[Ch3s]

So I was talking to Taj and Forward and some other AZ pros about this at a tourney and Taj had an interesting idea, although i dont know if it originated with him.

Why not add more CP stages, such as Mute or KJ, and then have two options for bans. Either allow someone to ban one neutral, or to ban ALL CPs. basically, if you hate all cps, you have the option of banning them all but then your opponent gets to choose any of the neutrals he wants (which in most cases allows for a character advantage like floaties still have dreamland, etc...) What this allows for is a more liberal counterpick stage list. Obviously there are cons like if you are in love with CPs but it is a good way to get certain stages included that people otherwise wouldnt consider as CPs

 

[Redact]

Wallshines requires perfect execution, if not, a mistake should result in getting KO'd (from an IC players perspective who has played those stages alot, since they are my favorites in tournament matches).

Dont know what your execution standards are, but you can just do shine wavedash (on the spot) shine wavedash... repeat to infinite any character on a wall.

The timing is far from strict or hard, I don't even play fox and I can do it consistantly.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Like I said before, there is no reason to ban a stage just because Fox is good on it. That takes away the depth of having the stage legal in every match-up that, you know, doesn't include Fox.

It would be a different story if Fox was the only viable character on the stage (forcing players to always ban the stage in fear of being taken there as Fox, or forcing a player who doesn't even use Fox to use him on that stage [a good example of this is Temple]), of course.

But otherwise, an extra stage ban for each "polar" stage would work fine.

I agree with Redact that Fox's infinites aren't difficult in the slightest, that's why stages like Yoshi's Island (the Melee one) and Peach's Castle should stay banned in my opinion.

Onett, on the other hand, has the cars that allow you to approach more safely and the platform lay-out, which allows characters like Marth and Peach to attack the camping Fox relatively safely.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So I was talking to Taj and Forward and some other AZ pros about this at a tourney and Taj had an interesting idea, although i dont know if it originated with him.

Why not add more CP stages, such as Mute or KJ, and then have two options for bans. Either allow someone to ban one neutral, or to ban ALL CPs. basically, if you hate all cps, you have the option of banning them all but then your opponent gets to choose any of the neutrals he wants (which in most cases allows for a character advantage like floaties still have dreamland, etc...) What this allows for is a more liberal counterpick stage list. Obviously there are cons like if you are in love with CPs but it is a good way to get certain stages included that people otherwise wouldnt consider as CPs

I actually had the same idea a while back. I implemented it for SGNG 1 or 2 (cant remember which). My experience from the tournament made me realize that it actually destablalizes the results of the tournament, which is the exact opposite of the desired outcome of a tournament ruleset. The rules should be there to best determine the ranking of players that are in attendance.

Its a cool idea for a small local or friendly tournament, but not something you should use for any serious tournament.

 

[TheGoat]

I think perhaps more stages should be allowed and more bans too balance it. And can I ask why Kingdom 2 is banned? It kinda sucks seeing so many stages in the game and only playing on a select few over and over again-I know the reasons behind bans for some stages, but I think at this point in time it would benefit the melee community to at least try out new stages in FRIENDLIES like at tournaments.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'm wondering why we still differentiate between neutrals and counter-picks...
I mean is it that hard to strike from 9 stages for the first game?

 

[Redact]

I'm wondering why we still differentiate between neutrals and counter-picks...
I mean is it that hard to strike from 9 stages for the first game?

I prefer 7 (as see new melb ruleset) as no one in melbourne is happy with RC/Brinstar being legal

 

[Ghostbone]

I prefer 7 (as see new melb ruleset) as no one in melbourne is happy with RC/Brinstar being legal

They're happy with Kongo but not with RC or Brinstar? O.o

Kongo's worse lol, I mean the stage is huge, you can run away really easily on it, the barrel randomly kills/saves people, and helps characters stall....

 

[Strong Badam]

^The barrel isn't random. yawn.

Klap Traps run on a timer. It doesn't matter how strong they are if they take skill to use.

No it doesn't. I spent an entire day watching Klap Trap, he doesn't have a set timer. He comes up at a random time during an interval, and whether he comes up on both sides or just one of them is random.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If Klap Trap is random, it's a borderline stage I guess.

But it shouldn't be removed without testing to see if it actually affects results in the current meta-game (it might end up being very easily avoided at a high level).

And what is the pattern for the Barrel? Seems pretty random to me. :/

 

[Strong Badam]

campy gameplay isn't desired in a competitive gameplay and encouraging such has been determined to be legitimate criteria to ban a stage
this is the reason Jungle Japes is banned, not Klap Trap. not to mention the **** you to vertical KO's and ohai to horizontal ones the stage presents, which would have only made it a cp if the platform layout wasn't obviously camp-oriented.

i need to learn the barrel's pattern. i'll see if i can do that but I'M BUSY AS **** THIS WEEK SJDFLDFKLSFDS maybe next week

 

[Ghostbone]

^The barrel isn't random. yawn.

The barrel on Kongo Jungle 64 is definitely random......

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So.... how do you know it's not random if you don't actually know the pattern?

And that supposed ban criteria on "campy" gameplay introduces so many double standards.

How about this one: Fox's lasers. Name one way they can be used offensively, please.

 

[Ghostbone]

How about this one: Fox's lasers. Name one way they can be used offensively, please.

Do they do shield damage?

 

[Strong Badam]

lol dashing shdl -> shine
shield damage too good

 

[Ghostbone]

Just checked.

The barrel on both of the kongo jungles are random.

So yea

 

[Grim Tuesday]

...

Alright, they have a very small use in shield pressure, that's it. The camping ability definitely over-shadows the offensive.

The same could be said for Jungle Japes, the gimping water encourages offensive play.

 

[Ghostbone]

The same could be said for Jungle Japes, the gimping water encourages offensive play.

But the klap trap is random and is a OHKO lol...
That's bad enough to ban the stage imo.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're right, I don't support Japes anymore because of the random Klap Trap.

But my point about camping still stands.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

There are two logical options:

You think stages can't be judged as fair/balanced/ect beyond a true broken strategy (ei, faster characters running away in circle stages like termina and hyrule). If this is the case you should argue that a significant amount of stages should be unbanned (jungle japes, mute city, MK2, pokefloats, onett).

or

You think stages can be judged as fair/balanced/ect beyond broken strategies (for example, BF is a more competitively fair environment than mute city). If this is the case you should argue for a smaller ruleset with few (if any) CP stages.


It really has nothing to do with randomness (since both players will be equally in the dark) or anything like that.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If you believe in the latter, there would only be one legal stage.

And randomness is important. The point of competition is finding out who the best player is. Randomness can lead to a player who isn't the best, winning.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

But where the line? It really has nothing to do with randomness.

For example, dreamland's wind, fountain's platforms, yoshi's shy guys, stadium's transformations. They are all random, yet give warning and have equal disadvantage for both players.

Also, the idea that non-random or static = good, is flawed. For example, look at brinstar. The lava rises in a set pattern every game. Or look at Hyrule, which is perfectly static.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That is precisely why we should avoid subjectivity in rule-sets.

What would you consider "the best"? The stage which allows for the most depth of game-play?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So you are part of the first group. You don't believe you can judge stages past broken strategies. That is a logically sound stance to take. But realize that it is your opinion and you can't ever convince someone who is of the opposing view.

 

[Ghostbone]

Almost anything that gives sufficient advanced warning is fine.
(e.g. The transformations on PS are fine since they give lots of warning, the klaptrap on JJ is not ok as it gives no warning)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Could you please answer the question I posed in my last post, Sveet? I'm trying to prove why it isn't just an opinion

And I never said that static = good. Not sure where you got that idea from. :/
Just that randomness is bad. That doesn't mean that a random stage can't be better than a static stage.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What would you consider "the best"? The stage which allows for the most depth of game-play?

The first question is purely my opinion. I like BF and DL a lot since they give me lots of room to maneuver and they still have a top platform (which is one of the strongest tactical features on platform maps, IMO).

As for the second question, I think rainbow cruise. The stage is constantly moving which both hinders and helps camping in unique ways. The stage also forces the players through various semi-chokes which allows safe approaches but doesn't force a conflict (a forced conflict would be like brinstar when the lava goes all the way up and there is only the top platform available and both players have to go there or get burned). There is an insane amount of depth to this stage, more-so than pokefloats simply because of the vertical movement aspects and less solid walls.


edit-

And I never said that static = good. Not sure where you got that idea from. :/
Just that randomness is bad. That doesn't mean that a random stage can't be better than a static stage.

Why is randomness bad? Poker has a lot of randomness but is also one of the most competitive non-sport activities on the planet and requires a lot of skill to play.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You answered the first question with the stage you like the best, that's not what I asked.

What criteria does a stage have to meet to be "good", and by extension, "the best"?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

You are asking for my opinion... Do you not want my opinion? How would you like me to answer this objectively?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wanted your opinion, yeah. On what the best stage is, not what your favourite stage is.

The first question is purely my opinion. I like BF and DL a lot since they give me lots of room to maneuver and they still have a top platform (which is one of the strongest tactical features on platform maps, IMO).

See the issue?

edit-
Why is randomness bad? Poker has a lot of randomness but is also one of the most competitive non-sport activities on the planet and requires a lot of skill to play.

I explained why it is bad already. It decreases the chance of the best player winning, which is the point of competition.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How do you define the "best player" except for the player who wins? Taking calculated risks is definitely part of competition.

Also, i didnt say they were my favorite stage. Just because i used the words "like" and "me" doesn't mean that. My favorite stage is PS because i main fox and that stage is really good for him.

 

[JPOBS]

For people who reside in the camp of "add more stages but give 2 bans", i present this concept:

If the solution to adding more stages is to give more bans, you have essentially solved nothing. If a stage is so bad that people will likely ban it automatically in all sets in tournament, then it should just be banned outright.

Assuming the striking system remained the same, you've accomplished nothing. People will still strike to BF (or what have you) and will almost always use their bans to get rid of floats/coneria/mute city/etc leaving the only playable stages as the neutral+current counterpicks.

and its because those stages are rightfully bad, tourny sets would stll be played mostly on neutrals.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

@Sveet
Well, maybe it wasn't your favorite stage. Semantics isn't an issue. You said why you liked the stage though, what I'd rather have is why the stage is good. Nevermind though, I'll come at your argument from a different angle.

Dealing with randomness is a skill, yep. But even the player who is better at dealing with randomness can lose... due to randomness.

@JPOBS
Firstly, who's to say people will automatically ban it every set? Let's use Poke Floats as an example. It's a really good Fox stage, but only if the Fox player knows what they are doing (unlike Temple). The only players who would ban PF every round are ones who are:

a) Playing against a Fox main/secondary every round.
b) Paranoid that their opponent will have a pocket Fox every round.
c) Really dislike the stage.

And banning something because players don't like it is just silly. Why remove the option for the players who do like it?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I really dont get what you're arguing for Grim. Regardless of whatever opinion-trap you might lock me into (which i think i'm doing a good job of avoiding, if i do say so myself) you will only have my personal opinion in the end. What I said before was logically correct and will always be correct.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

There are two logical options:

I'm trying to argue that there is only one.

You think stages can't be judged as fair/balanced/ect beyond a true broken strategy (ei, faster characters running away in circle stages like termina and hyrule). If this is the case you should argue that a significant amount of stages should be unbanned (jungle japes, mute city, MK2, pokefloats, onett).

Which is this. Let's call it Option A.

You think stages can be judged as fair/balanced/ect beyond broken strategies (for example, BF is a more competitively fair environment than mute city). If this is the case you should argue for a smaller ruleset with few (if any) CP stages.

And not this, Option B.

We are crafting a competitive rule-set. The more depth something has, the more competitive it is. Adding more stages that DON'T remove depth (Temple is an example of a stage that would remove more depth than it would add) will make the rule-set more competitive.

Depth can be objectively looked at, unlike opinion.

So if you go with Option B, it is unavoidable that you will either have a subjective rule-set (which leads to double standards [often, not always], disagreements and non-conformity) or a less competitively deep rule-set than Option A.

Comprende?

 

[Beat!]

The more depth something has, the more competitive it is.

This statement is extremely over-simplified, and not necessarily correct.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You can attempt to counter the statement, if you'd like.

 

[JPOBS]

@JPOBS
Firstly, who's to say people will automatically ban it every set? Let's use Poke Floats as an example. It's a really good Fox stage, but only if the Fox player knows what they are doing (unlike Temple). The only players who would ban PF every round are ones who are:

a) Playing against a Fox main/secondary every round.
b) Paranoid that their opponent will have a pocket Fox every round.
c) Really dislike the stage.

And banning something because players don't like it is just silly. Why remove the option for the players who do like it?

I can't prove people will ban it every set, but its very probable.

on another note, a question i would like to ask is what does adding pokefloats/mutecity or whatever stage the list ADD to the metagame?
seriously, whats the point in adding those stages back anyway?

Is it just for the sake of it? in others words, you don't find their reasons for being banned compelling so we "might as well" bring them back? I don't find the "might as well bring them back" argument compelling and neither do most considering there is a very small amount of people who want them back. if the best reason is honestly we "might as well bring them back", then who gives a **** if we're just doing it for sh**s and giggles anyway

And if its to add counterpicks for certain chars/matchups, then just revert back to my last post because if your adding counterpicks for matchups, thos estages are just going to be banned by the players anyway. and im not talking about fox. if floats is randomly good in ganon vs ics (for example idc if it s or not), then ics players will just ban it vs ganon's anyway, completely removing the point of adding it.

I kinda rambled but yea. To the point, what does bringing these stages back actually add to the metagame?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Erm... effectively different situations...

You know, gameplay depth.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Depth can be objectively looked at, unlike opinion.

That is not entirely true.

Also, like JPOBS said, what does it add? How does putting mute city in the stage list actually increase depth? Those stages were removed because those stages cause over-centralization not because "oh damn i lost there i say we all get together and agree to remove it"


This goes back to my binary statement, you either thing that you can judge stages beyond perfect brokenness or you can't. Either you see marginal centralizations as damaging or you don't.