Melee Stage Discussion (Sticky?)

[Fortress | Sveet]

None of those glitches come even close to making Link "broken" on the stage.

I dont see how link being stuck to the ground (almost) regardless of damage or knockback is NOT broken.


edit- Mute city is such a good stage for peach that armada himself has said it is a free win for peach. Also, to my knowledge he has never lost a game on that stage while it was legal (for reference, genesis had mute city legal)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What? You mean where he hides under that thing?

He probably isn't the only character that can do that, he can be grabbed and you can roll behind him to hit him out.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

he is literally stuck to the floor and can throw his projectiles through the walls. If he is hit by an attack he stays on the ground. If he gets a grab on you his throws spike you through the level to your death.


^ broken.

 

[PK Webb]

i just feel as if there arent enuff stages anymore at least give me back corneria

 

[Grim Tuesday]

he is literally stuck to the floor

1. It doesn't work in 1.2
2. He can be thrown out of it.
3. He still takes damage.

and can throw his projectiles through the walls.

Not broken. :/

If he gets a grab on you his throws spike you through the level to your death.

Erm... only on a certain part of the ship.

^ broken.

Nope.

 

[Bones0]

i just feel as if there arent enuff stages anymore at least give me back corneria

It's gonna get banned anyway. Bad counterpicks like Brinstar, RC, MC, and Corneria should be renamed ban-burners.

 

[Ghostbone]

Why are you arguing about venom there's a bunch of reasons to ban it outside of just the Link glitch >.>

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That's actually a really good point Ghost ;P

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's gonna get banned anyway. Bad counterpicks like Brinstar, RC, MC, and Corneria should be renamed ban-burners.

Who bans Brinstar in the Jigglypuff vs. Peach match-up?

Who bans Rainbow Cruise in the Captain Falcon vs. Marth match-up?

Who bans Mute City in the Ice Climbers vs. Dr. Mario match-up?

 

[Bones0]

Most people don't CP *** stages when it doesn't give them a huge advantage. You never see Fox players CP Rainbow Cruise in dittos, and you never see ICs or Dr. Marios taking each other to MC. Obviously I'm sure it happens sometimes, but even when they do pick a weird stage it's because they are assuming they have more experience on that stage and hope their opponent has no idea how to abuse the stage. It's really rare that anyone counterpicks neutrals based on how experienced their opponent is on that stage because everyone typically plays all the neutrals in friendlies.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So you think we should remove options because... people aren't using them?

Cool, really good idea. Let's get rid of Pichu too!

 

[LatexRhombus]

Who bans Brinstar in the Jigglypuff vs. Peach match-up?

Who bans Rainbow Cruise in the Captain Falcon vs. Marth match-up?

Who bans Mute City in the Ice Climbers vs. Dr. Mario match-up?

you realize he mentioned 4 stages as "ban burners," regardless of whether i agree w/ him or not (i don't), but either way theres no possible way for all 4 stages to be banned in any match-up you can list. lol

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Could I request a sticky for this thread (directed at any moderators who are looking)?

 

[Divinokage]

You gotta be kidding me.. Sticky for this? lol...

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If "Help Germ Win the Wedding of his Dreams!" warrants a sticky, so does this.

 

[Marth307]

I agree this seems to be a thread worth a sticky more than Germs wedding...whoever that is

 

[Ghostbone]

Grim I wouldn't plead for a sticky >.>

Though it's kinda ******** how brawl has a whole section for stage discussion and Melee doesn't even have a stickied thread on it.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wouldn't call it pleading, it's just a request.

I'd like if this thread could actually get some decent discussion going again.

 

[Ghostbone]

Eh ok

Let's discuss............
Kongo Jungle 64

 

[ETWIST51294]

I agree this seems to be a thread worth a sticky more than Germs wedding...whoever that is

...

learn your history bro

...

 

[Dark Hart]

Though it's kinda ******** how brawl has a whole section for stage discussion and Melee doesn't even have a stickied thread on it.

While I don't think this should be stickied... ^ this is a very valid point

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

for a stage discussion thread there is very little discussion about stages. so lets talk about mute city and why is it banned? The only reason i can think is maybe it makes resting to easy for jiggs but if thats not the reason then i want to know what is.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It is banned because of Jigglypuff (and Peach to a lesser extent).

Though I don't really see the point when an extra stage ban or Hybrid Stage List striking solves the issue with ease.

 

[Ghostbone]

I don't think Mute City is that bad.

Jiggs is pretty good on it though, but I don't think it's to any broken extent (I prefer Brinstar with Jiggs actually, though that's probably just me...)

And what Grim said, adding a couple more stages and giving players another stage ban would add to the strategic depth of counter-picking, and keep stages that are legit in most match-ups.


Edit:
Apparently it lags in doubles though, so it would need to be banned in doubles because of that.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

figured it must be b/c of jiggs, imo peach is really good on mute but she is not good enough for it to be banned. but i could see jiggs being to good on mute and it getting banned.

when i first started playing melee the DK stage with the klap traps was legal what happened to that stage? was it b/c of to much spam? (guessing they use a K to spell their name not sure)

Also i want to add that in the thread about applying to the mbr people were saying that they wanted to ban more stages such as brinstar. i want to say i think that is a terrible idea and the stage list is very small as it is and any smaller would only hurt melee. stages like brinstar are imo the perfect example of a counter pick, kinda gimmicky, gives certain character help in MU but does not make anyone one character to good or unbeatable. at least thats my opinion

 

[Divinokage]

What? A good Peach that has super easy reads on Mute City is undefeatable, she gains advantage over the entire cast just because she can edgeguard pretty much on the whole stage.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

like i said shes really good on mute but not good enough to get the stage banned. ive played there ive watched tons of matches on mute and its not unbeatable just really good. and to be fair kage, ganon is one of the characters that gets hurt the worst on that stage so i can see how u feel that way but i dont agree

 

[Grim Tuesday]

If she's undefeatably broken there, that's not a sign to ban the stage, it's a sign to add more stage bans.

 

[Ghostbone]

You mean Jungle Japes?

The klaptrap is random and a OHKO, that's pretty much an auto-ban right there imo.

Edit: Dammit 3 posts between what I was replying to.

Edit2: No Grim if Peach is the only viable character on the stage then it needs to be banned.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

first off i kinda figured it was the klaptraps.

now once again peach is great on mute no one is saying otherwise but she is not the only viable character there and i think other characters can beat her on that stage. i think the only reason that stage should/would be banned is b/c of jiggs. it seems that with jiggs wall of pain plus no edges for easy rests would be what makes that stage banned not peach having better but not un-winnable MU there

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Look, there is no reason to ban a stage because a character is too good there, okay?

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

then in your opinion what is a reason to ban a stage? just wondering what u r basing this on so we are all on the same page.

 

[Ghostbone]

Look, there is no reason to ban a stage because a character is too good there, okay?

If a stage is overcentralized around a certain character then yes there is...

e.g. Yoshi's Island

Anyway as for Mute City Tero's Jiggs was counter-picked there before lol.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Being good there =/= over-centralizing

 

[Ghostbone]

Being good there =/= over-centralizing

Obviously not, but being extremely good on a stage can cause over-centralization

 

[Divinokage]

like i said shes really good on mute but not good enough to get the stage banned. ive played there ive watched tons of matches on mute and its not unbeatable just really good. and to be fair kage, ganon is one of the characters that gets hurt the worst on that stage so i can see how u feel that way but i dont agree

No, I think it's every matchup. I said take a good Peach there and she's undefeatable. Max skill Peach > anything.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Edit2: No Grim if Peach is the only viable character on the stage then it needs to be banned.

But she isn't the only viable character there.

Obviously not, but being extremely good on a stage can cause over-centralization

No it can't.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

No, I think it's every matchup. I said take a good Peach there and she's undefeatable. Max skill Peach > anything.

thats just wrong on the fact that jiggs is better on that stage. and besides the stage gives peach advantages but its not like her weaknesses disappear, she can still lose there

 

[Ghostbone]

No, I think it's every matchup. I said take a good Peach there and she's undefeatable. Max skill Peach > anything.

Why is she undefeatable? Because of easier edge-guarding? I hardly think that makes her broken.

 

[Xyzz]

Armada didn't lose a single match during pound IV there, and he states that Peach is probably too good on the stage. This alone should make you think that there is a slight problem.
If you don't think Peach / Jiggz are too strong there I suggest you pay attention to the recoveries of the cast. The two mentioned characters (or Yoshi / kirby ) usually do just fine without the edge, while others often severely punished if they are forced to land on the stage with their laggy up b moves.

Just adding a new stage and give out an additional ban to make sure you don't get taken there, if the stage feels unfair is not the optimal solution neither.
Follow me for a quick example: Suppose we have five stages s1, s2, ..., s5 (the neutrals ) that are allowed to be played on, s1 giving you a decent advantage, and s2 a slight one. s3 is pretty neutral, s4 is a slight advantage to me, s5 is fairly good for me. Now we add c1 which is hugely in my favor.
Suppose I win our first match of the set (where we striked to s3).
If I had a single ban, I'd ban s1, and our second game would be on s2, which feels about fair for your counterpick.
However adding c1 gives me an additional ban, so I ban s1 and s2, and your best bet is to pick the neutral stage again.

Of course this is a pretty special case, but it might happen (maybe not in a variant which is so dramatic as the one above... say we had c2, and c3 without additional bans. C2 favours me again, c3 is even better then s1 for you. So we would end up fighting on s2, instead of s1 for the second match). So why add new stages which are just in favor of a very limited amount of characters and gives them the option to burn away fairly neutral stages where the opponent has a slight advantage?

I feel having a set of stages which are fairly neutral in the first place is the best idea. The neutral stages + pokemon stadium (maybe KJ64) are pretty fine. There is a slight advantage for some characters on some of the stages, like Marth liking Yoshis Story, or Peach doing pretty well on Dreamland, but these slight advantages are pretty insignificant compared to player skill.