Melee Stage Discussion (Sticky?)

[Grim Tuesday]

Melee Stage Discussion​

This thread's purpose is to provide a place to discuss, socialize, research, inform and debate on the topic of stages in Super Smash Brothers Melee.

Some of the topics that are encouraged and expected in any future replies are:​

• 1. Discussion of the general principles by which stages should be legal or to discuss changes to stage selection procedure
• 2. Discussion of the legality and status of specific stages.
• 3. A place to post and compile guides on the mechanics and properties of different stages.
• 4. Social discussion of the mechanics and properties of different stages.

With that in mind, here are some general ground rules to ensure that this thread stays on-track:​

• 1. The Global Rules still apply here.
  This should be simple enough. Just because this thread is partly a general/social thread does not mean spam, double posting, etc... are all fair game. They aren't.
  
• 2. Don't reply to people who obviously didn't see rule #1.
  This should also be simple. If someone comes in and is like "Lol, Post Count +1", ignore them and pretend it never happened. They'll get infracted and as long as you don't respond to them and egg them on or join in, you won't.
  
• 3. Try to keep things on whatever the current subject is.
  This isn't too strict of a rule, but if there is productive discussion going on, try not to derail it and ruin it for everyone else, okay?

 

[Madtsunami]

let's talk about pokefloats

 

[Grim Tuesday]

From a legality perspective... seems fine to me.

Fox can camp a few characters out (Peach and Ganondorf come to mind straight away), but it's no-where near over-centralizing enough to make it a "Pick Fox or lose" stage like Temple.

The lack of ledges isn't ban criteria... falling through the seel is predictable... The walls are temporary and relatively easy to avoid.

Seems like a good Fox stage, but nothing more. It'd be a lot better if there were 2 stage bans though.

 

[Timic83]

why do some douchebags ban greens

 

[Rush]

why do some douchebags ban greens

Apples and blocks I'm guessing.



These are my opinions, nothing more.

I'm personally fine with Pokefloats, even though it is a very good Fox stage. It doesn't seem like the advantage is monumentally greater than any other matchups with the current stage list.

I'm also fine with Mute City. There are cars, but they are nothing you can't avoid. There are no ledges but that isn't a gamebreaker. Yes it is a good stage for certain characters like Peach, but again I don't think the advantage is overwhelming to be worth banning. By the way, can anyone tell me why it was banned in the first place?

With Corneria, I'm okay with it either way. The major thing that prevents me from supporting it is the Arwings firing. Oh and yes you can camp and the cannon but that's probably considered stalling and bannable.

Same thing with Jungle Japes, although Klaptraps is more significant than Arwings, as Klaptraps have one-hit KOs.

I also believed that Stadium and it's transformations is more neutral than FoD and it's platforms.

Everything else that is current with the stage list is okay with me.

 

[Smasher89]

why do some douchebags ban greens

Spacies is very very dominant on green greens(not sure I´ve seen more then like one shiek or something win on that stage, counting 50+tournamentmatches with different players).

Gaining control with a laser to force an approach over the blocks is effective, to then doubleshine or upthrow upair to kill very early %.
I didn´t want to ban it since it seemed doable to beat Fox on this stage, but truth to be told it´s much harder to beat a fox on that stage then on corneria or onett.
So I support that ban, even though I don´t agree on the other 2 stages banned that I mentioned.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

dont listen to anything smasher89 says about opinions regarding stages, he thinks **** like that dl64 and bf should be banned but princess peach castle should be alowed
im dead ****ing serious i can link quotes from the swedish forum

 

[Slashy]

I played some friendlies at a tournament yesterday, even Falco vs Ness on Onett didn't seem to be GREATLY in Falco's favor (I think the guy was a Falco main). I was able to punish crouch cancels whihc was amazing to see.

 

[Smasher89]

dont listen to anything smasher89 says about opinions regarding stages, he thinks **** like that dl64 and bf should be banned but princess peach castle should be alowed
im dead ****ing serious i can link quotes from the swedish forum

Yep, if all other stages is banned, theres unbalance in DL64 that needs to get rid of("airplanking as puff for example, if you´re curioius).

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

bull****, even the idea of banning a stage as neutral as dl64 is ridicoulus and noone will agree with you.
and unbanning other stages wont make it more balanced lol

 

[JPOBS]

falling through the seel is predictable..

wait what? explain pl0x

 

[Teczer0]

I think he meant it as, everyone knows what causes the glitch where you fall through the seel. As in its not random and therefore avoidable.

 

[Bones0]

SINGLES:
- BF
- DL
- FD
- FoD
- YS
- KJ (counterpick)
- PS (counterpick)

DOUBLES:
- BF
- DL
- FD
- PS
- YS
- KJ (counterpick)
- Brinstar (counterpick)
- RC (counterpick)

 

[JPOBS]

I think he meant it as, everyone knows what causes the glitch where you fall through the seel. As in its not random and therefore avoidable.

go on... because i honestly don't.

 

[stelzig]

go on... because i honestly don't.

Eh, pretty sure it only happens if you dash over it so just... Don't.

I remember talking about this during a match between two people (small tourney) right next to them only to see one of them do it anyway, lol. And he was still extremely surprised by it hahaha.

 

[Doser]

I just cannot see the reason why people are so quick to ban stages due to fox being too strong on it. Foxes aren't winning nationals, they aren't close to being too common in top 10's in huge tournaments, why not let it play out. The community seems to be much more fine with really strong floaty counterpicks (brinstar, and mute city seems to not be opposed as much as floats and corneria)

 

[JPOBS]

its less to do with fox being good on it and more to do with over centralizing the metagame. if the game breaks down into no items, fox only, pokefloats, then no one wants to play it.

having a game with less stages is preferred to having a game with more stages, but less character diversity.

 

[Smasher89]

Eh, pretty sure it only happens if you dash over it so just... Don't.

I remember talking about this during a match between two people (small tourney) right next to them only to see one of them do it anyway, lol. And he was still extremely surprised by it hahaha.

Happens on more places though, I´ve seen it happen once on chikorita, but the holes exists on pokemon stadium too so theres not even close to the reason to ban the stage.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

With Corneria, I'm okay with it either way. The major thing that prevents me from supporting it is the Arwings firing. Oh and yes you can camp and the cannon but that's probably considered stalling and bannable.

It's not stalling, it's camping. If Young Link gets the lead on this stage, he automatically wins. This would mean that you'd either
a) Always have to ban this stage
or
b) Always pick Young Link on your opponent's CP.

Same thing with Jungle Japes, although Klaptraps is more significant than Arwings, as Klaptraps have one-hit KOs.

Klap Traps run on a timer. It doesn't matter how strong they are if they take skill to use.

Spacies is very very dominant on green greens(not sure I´ve seen more then like one shiek or something win on that stage, counting 50+tournamentmatches with different players).

Gaining control with a laser to force an approach over the blocks is effective, to then doubleshine or upthrow upair to kill very early %.
I didn´t want to ban it since it seemed doable to beat Fox on this stage, but truth to be told it´s much harder to beat a fox on that stage then on corneria or onett.
So I support that ban, even though I don´t agree on the other 2 stages banned that I mentioned.

Rather than banning a stage because a character is really good on it (which is a character strength, removing said stage is just as much an arbitrary nerf as removing Fox's shine), wouldn't it make more sense just to add more stage bans?

Anyway: On the topic of walk-offs... I can't see anything inherently wrong with them.

Camping them is high risk-high reward*, and if we were out to ban things like that we'd also have to get rid of Rest, Warlock Punch, etc...

*Unlike in Brawl, where walk-offs are mid/low risk-high reward due to strong defensive gameplay.

 

[Stratford]

I just cannot see the reason why people are so quick to ban stages due to fox being too strong on it. Foxes aren't winning nationals, they aren't close to being too common in top 10's in huge tournaments, why not let it play out.

This is actually an interesting point.

 

[tarheeljks]

This is actually an interesting point.

i'd guess the short answer is that it promotes a style of play the most people feel hurts the game

 

[Beat!]

Or you could read JPOBS's post.

 

[Dark Hart]

I don't see what's wrong with the current stage list...

some people are just too salty

 

[Doser]

its less to do with fox being good on it and more to do with over centralizing the metagame. if the game breaks down into no items, fox only, pokefloats, then no one wants to play it.

having a game with less stages is preferred to having a game with more stages, but less character diversity.

But that is what I'm saying in the post you quoted, we aren't seeing many foxes, what makes you think that there will be too many with these stages? Why doesn't this come up with other stages, brinstar is amazing for jigglypuff and peach, but they don't cp to it every time and they aren't overcentralizing the metagame. Floaties didn't do it when mute city was legal either. It doesn't become no items brinstar only, jigglypuff peach. Fox is not dominating nationals, how on earth would this put it over the edge?

I think everyone just sees the tier list and thinks that they cannot give the best character any advantage, but the problem is the tier list is not fully indicative of reality. Either don't give any top tiers a largely advantageous stage or give them equal fairness when choosing stages to be legal.

On a somewhat unrelated note I also support 2 bans and more stages. That way the players can choose what stages they want to play on with greater choice and with no chance of a player playing on a stage that's awful for them because of the "new" stages introduced.

 

[Marth307]

Being completly random i would like to say temple sucks

 

[tarheeljks]

Or you could read JPOBS's post.

i did, thanks but he didn't, or didn't process it totally

 

[Slashy]

I would like to talk about Onett. I've friendlied on that stage several time and I've seen nothing that doesn't make it counterpick worthy. Being a Ganondorf player, I can dominate floaty characters on that stage due to its walls, low cieling, and no need to recover.

 

[Redact]

I just cannot see the reason why people are so quick to ban stages due to fox being too strong on it. Foxes aren't winning nationals, they aren't close to being too common in top 10's in huge tournaments, why not let it play out. The community seems to be much more fine with really strong floaty counterpicks (brinstar, and mute city seems to not be opposed as much as floats and corneria)

This concept and the logic behind it is terrible.

First off there hasn't been many top foxes in recent tournaments due to many reasons, one of them being theres no current pure fox player at the same level as armada/amsah/drpp/m2k/mango(even though he sand bags)/hbox APART from maybe jman, who HASN'T been able to attend every tournament.

The reason these stages are banned are not because foxes are winning, its because due to the way the stages are designed, people can see that these stages can be abused by foxes for easy wins if played correctly.

In a medical perspective a prevention is the best cure, and in a smash perspective, it is best we dont wait until m2k plays fox and camps/abuses on bad stages to win a major before we ban them.

 

[Marth307]

Soooo people abuse fox on what stages exactly??If hes being abused there should be a character to abuse his abuse right??Isn't that how its supposed to work?

 

[Dark Hart]

Soooo people abuse fox on what stages exactly??If hes being abused there should be a character to abuse his abuse right??Isn't that how its supposed to work?

See, this is why these threads are ********.

 

[Marth307]

well typically games are balanced so things like this can be beaten one way or another xP but i wouldnt know i was just taking a guess

 

[Doser]

well typically games are balanced so things like this can be beaten one way or another xP but i wouldnt know i was just taking a guess

Have you played melee yet?

 

[Redact]

well typically games are balanced so things like this can be beaten one way or another xP but i wouldnt know i was just taking a guess

The basic example of character abuse is Hyrule:

If fox (or any other fast character) gets a lead against a slower character, they can just run away for the rest of the match rather than fighting. Theres no way around this unless the fox player is flat out dumb and runs back into the slower character.

Otherwise stages like onett with wallshines/camping under the platform on the left side, camping the sides on green greens or such. All these campy promoting stages are just a negative influence on the meta-game.

 

[-ACE-]

SINGLES:
- BF
- DL
- FD
- FoD
- YS
- KJ (counterpick)
- PS (counterpick)

DOUBLES:
- BF
- DL
- FD
- PS
- YS
- KJ (counterpick)
- Brinstar (counterpick)
- RC (counterpick)

Damn near perfect imho.

 

[Marth307]

Have you played melee yet?

YES :D i Just got it

 

[Marth307]

The basic example of character abuse is Hyrule:

If fox (or any other fast character) gets a lead against a slower character, they can just run away for the rest of the match rather than fighting. Theres no way around this unless the fox player is flat out dumb and runs back into the slower character.

Otherwise stages like onett with wallshines/camping under the platform on the left side, camping the sides on green greens or such. All these campy promoting stages are just a negative influence on the meta-game.

Thanks for good example

 

[Smasher89]

Otherwise stages like onett with wallshines/camping under the platform on the left side, camping the sides on green greens or such. All these campy promoting stages are just a negative influence on the meta-game.

Wallshines requires perfect execution, if not, a mistake should result in getting KO'd (from an IC players perspective who has played those stages alot, since they are my favorites in tournament matches).

Camping bair is in no way unbeatable, there is even ledges for invincibility to promote approaching there.

As IC I just desynch Nana to charge a fsmash, while watching if theres a jump for a back air, if not, just grabs the ledge and hit/force them to try getting another position.


More then one stageban does however work perfecly with more stages, allowing more strategic play and less repetive play.

 

[Divinokage]

Having more neutral stages is definitely more balanced and has actually given a rise to more character variety in tournaments. Look at Pound 5 results for example. All the top 5 use different characters. There's no more BS gimmicks which will completely gimp certain matchups, like Peach on Mute City will 99% always win. You never really want to fight the stage at all even though it's kinda of the essence of smash but it is not tournament standards however. In a tournament, you want to focus solely on your opponent and see how you can out smart him. Of course you still need to learn the stages and how you can do the best decisions but.. Simply having 2 ledges and some platforms is good. That way, even the most obscure matchups will have a better chance at doing well. Using rules like this promotes using low tiers and it's awesome imo.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Stadium should replace FD in the striking. I posted about it a while back but didnt receive much attention. There are many ways of logic to the decision, I will try to explain some of them in this post.

Any spacie player who has struck vs a marth knows how advantaged he is. By striking dreamland, the marth's opponent is left with picking from marth's 4 CP stages. By changing FD to Stadium, marth now has 2 "bad" stages (though i dont think any stage in the current ruleset is that bad for him).

A similar scenario happens in every match-up with a CG on only one side, as a single grab leads to more guaranteed damage on FD than any other stage, forcing the opponent to strike the stage for that reason alone. The lack of platforms on FD makes it the most different stage of the 6. Match-ups with CGs on one side cause the striking system to break down, as the size and layout of the stage becomes irrelevant.

Another way to look at it is to organize the stages into categories.

Battlefield is, in many ways, the neutral ground for all categories. Stage size and blast zones are both moderate and the stage is static in every way (unlike the other 4, which all have a perk or variance). By organizing the 5 stages into 2 small & 2 big with 1 medium, it guarantees a more balanced stage strike environment.

Stadium being a currently CP stage (though considered neutral for far longer, and only taken off neutral because of numbers) is the logical rebuttal to this argument. The stage changes make it the least fair of the 6 stages in many people's minds. While this is an opinion based argument, I will go to say that it is not so important the balance of one stage as much as maintaining the overall balance of the strike.

 

[MTKO]

Eh, pretty sure it only happens if you dash over it so just... Don't.

I remember talking about this during a match between two people (small tourney) right next to them only to see one of them do it anyway, lol. And he was still extremely surprised by it hahaha.

I also was unaware of how the glitch worked. About an hour ago I was playing pokefloats with my sister's boyfriend and he fell through snorlax. Is it the same as falling through seel?