MELEE-FC Tournament Ruleset Discussion

[Fregadero]

I believe sveet said he was at one that ran it and said he didnt like the way it played. Don't want to speak for other people though.

 

[BigD!!!]

Toph how do you trigger falling through stadium? Everybody knows walking off seels head, but stadium doesn't seem to have a specific action, just the tree is dangerous sometimes

 

[KishPrime]

I feel like we need some actual testing rather than just a bunch of worthless theory crafting. Run a local tourney or two with the FC ruleset and see if the results are skewed to favor these "jank" strategies. There is still a good amount of time before the FC, so we can get a lot of data in.

Unfortunately, ruleset discussions have never operated from a point of "data" before and I doubt they will now. Just not enough facts, and always too much limited information, even if we did start to collect some now.

Plus, this clearly needs to be settled earlier. Shrug.

 

[choknater]

juggleguy: just for the record, rainbow is really not that bad vs ic's. you kinda just have to stay grounded and poke from below.

i'm sure Fly_Amanita can personally attest to winning on both rainbow and pokefloats

 

[PEEF!]

juggleguy: just for the record, rainbow is really not that bad vs ic's. you kinda just have to stay grounded and poke from below.

i'm sure Fly_Amanita can personally attest to winning on both rainbow and pokefloats

We've all won there, but it is abysmal, and honestly no other character has nearly as bad of a time on either stage as the ICs do, and it isn't even close. The "poke from below" strategy can be dealt with by just "not going too far above." The reason IC players can win there is because they have a real strategy whereas other chars usually choose it "because ICs are bad there" with no plan.

 

[choknater]

well IMO the main places to fight are on the boat, which is not bad for us at all, and the flat parts at the top.

at the left part of the stage, my goal is to lay low and what most people do is go to the higher platforms first and just try to run away from me and pester me with projectiles or something. if they want to keep fighting me, i will try to fight but i don't really see myself losing badly to characters that aren't fox or peach, who are difficult matchups anyway.

they give themselves a fighting chance by picking a stage where grabs are very difficult to connect, but i don't think it is extremely terrible. but i do think it is bad enough a stage for us that i usually ban it if it's available.

upon looking at the fc stage list, i do agree that rainbow is probably the worst for us but none of the stages really make it unwinnable for us.

 

[Bones0]

I could talk about stage balance, randomness, etc. but it's all pretty irrelevant to me. The fact of the matter is, nationals should use the status quo for rulesets. If any changes are to be made, they should be as minimal as possible. If you want Japes and MKII to be legal, run them at locals and encourage other regions to do the same. Forcing players to play on stages they have never played on before just because it's your tournament is just stupid and almost rude in a way. Obviously TOs always have the ability to say "**** you. If you don't like my rule set, don't come." It's served the community well in the past, but only for locals. However, this mentality needs to be thrown out the window for nationals because it's not worth risking them flopping. You can fight to change the stage list every weekend of the year, so don't pick the biggest tournament of the year to run an experimental stage list.

 

[KishPrime]

so don't pick the biggest tournament of the year to run an
experimental stage list.

Technically, it's our only tournament in five years, it was meant as a partial throwback to the old days, and we were just following the old mantra of "If you believe in a ruleset, run a tournament."

That said, I'm thoroughly cheered that you see this as potentially the biggest tournament of the year, as we had no idea what kind of reception to expect. As we've said repeatedly, we did see this as a compromise between old and new that made sense to us and those I showed it to, and obviously it was not enough of one...so we'll try again. Since clearly you new guys are willing to support the event as well, we're listening.

If you're not reading the main thread, we're getting our relaunch ready for Friday with registration, and we'll announce our compromise we come up with, version 2, at that time. We certainly still appreciate and will consider conversation in this thread until then, and I'm happy to talk via PM with anyone who has additional thoughts to share personally, as I have been with some of you.

 

[Juggleguy]

I feel like we need some actual testing rather than just a bunch of worthless theory crafting. Run a local tourney or two with the FC ruleset and see if the results are skewed to favor these "jank" strategies. There is still a good amount of time before the FC, so we can get a lot of data in.

It's not just about results being skewed. It's about not messing up the tourney experience of potential attendees with an unnecessarily janky stagelist. There has to be a balance between what the majority of attendees want / expect / have been practicing for based on the last two nationals, and what the TO staff believes in / wants to raise awareness about. But right now the scale is tipped heavily towards the latter.

 

[FrootLoop]

ruleset is sweet
WI is gonna tap cuz we still play these stages
they're so fun

 

[ORLY]

and frank demonstrates why WI and i get along so well

my northern neighbor brothers

 

[omgwtfToph]

ORLY I'll MM you for $5-20 with all stages legal if you're up to it. No camping lol

 

[Big_R]

hey i want in on this hot fire! we playin em alll baby so best of 11? 11 bux winner take all and ya no camping.

oh if ur down for no camping i got a sweet rule i just made up. if any matches go longer than 5.30 the campier person--determinded by a 3rd party--forfeits that match.

 

[ORLY]

ORLY I'll MM you for $5-20 with all stages legal if you're up to it. No camping lol

hey i want in on this hot fire! we playin em alll baby so best of 11? 11 bux winner take all and ya no camping.

i accept both of these! $20 a piece

camping is for sissy babies

EDIT: @toph: do you mean all stages meaning ALL stages or the FC stagelist (as it stands now [fingers crossed it doesn't change!])?

 

[Metà]

pretty sure he means all 29 stages

 

[ORLY]

god i hope so

meta are you coming to this? it's been too long

 

[omgwtfToph]

ALL FRIGGIN STAGES \o/

idk lol I'm down to do whatever MM with any player to be honest, I just thought I'd propose all stages cuz it'd be fun

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

"Here's a prime example as to how strong CP's can be for certain characters. Trail manages to beat Darkrain match 1 of the set using IC's. Darkrain displays his understanding of how powerful CP's can be by taking Trail to Rainbow Cruise. This is a notoriously bad stage for IC's, and Trail even comes out with his known secondary, Marth, which is basically the only suggestion thus far for combatting against CP stages. Darkrain proceeds to absolutely demolish Trail, continuing the set to game three, where darkrain barely wins. Now what stage exactly does Trail have to pick against Darkrain that gives him that same advantage? Mute? Lol getting knee'd once means Darkrain gets a free edge guard kill with IC's sorry recovery, to which admittedly IC's can do back, but the moving stage removes their CG, so at best it's even and at worst it's still in CF's favor. Corneria? Say hello to 70% knee kills. So here is an instance where characters and stage advantage/disadvantage played a large enough role that the player had no real answer for it. The stages introduced advantages to one character that the other character had no access to."

I lost a lot of sets like this and i felt robbed lol. "Learn to play another char" BRO I DONT SEE DIS ***** USING ANOTHER char, this is some bs. The best would be losing game one and then just accepting that im prob gonna lose game 3 playing on a stupid stage.

 

[baka4moé]

looking forward to the revision!

 

[Metà]

god i hope so

meta are you coming to this? it's been too long

yeah man, definitely.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Toph how do you trigger falling through stadium? Everybody knows walking off seels head, but stadium doesn't seem to have a specific action, just the tree is dangerous sometimes

wavedashing down into the right side of the top of the tree (between the branches) triggers it. anything other than that is extremely rare

 

[1048576]

Just out of curiosity, how is brinstar depths "worse" than the alternate stages already up here? Is there a reason it wasn't included?

 

[omgwtfToph]

Trail's example is pretty good imo. Of all the "good" characters, ICs are definitely the one that gets hit the hardest by a ruleset like this because ICs generally prefer simpler stages. If a floaty bans 3 neutrals the ICs are in a pretty tough situation for both the first match of the set and even their own counterpick (most likely, all they'll get to do is counterpick some relatively "neutral" stage). Peef gave a similar example.

That's why I think it'd be a good idea to differentiate between "neutral" and "counterpick" stages for the first game in the set (just like most tournaments in the past) and only begin the "ban 3 stages" thing after the first game has been played.

Edit: and Brinstar Depths is bad because it basically combines every reason a weird stage would be considered weird: encourages camping, rotating stage leads to pretty "random" deaths (or being "randomly" put in a very bad position), doesn't have ledges, and fighting in general is just super weird lol.

 

[t3h Icy]

Also, I am never going to another tournament hosted by Alex Strife ever again.

lol

lol man leffen, i know you're a competitive dude, but there's some things about FC that doesn't really have to do with competitive melee's metagame, but its HISTORY.

midwest and FC famous for these things
- weird stage lists
- epic crew battles
- establishing rivalries

Maybe that's why MW players are as skilled as they are?

 

[Strong Badam]

mw players would **** on you, icy
#sometwitterbull****

 

[Morin0]

yeah, icy

**** on u

 

[PEEF!]

mw players would **** on you, icy
#sometwitterbull****

Icy vs Strong_Bad, sh*tty contested stages only.

 

[Strong Badam]

no, we'll use WC ruleset with items on just like in 2003
let's settle this on ur terms so u look even worse when i **** up ur ****

 

[t3h Icy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5J-kD_MMBM

 

[leffen]

Maybe that's why MW players are as skilled as they are?

haha yooooooooooo


MW is ****ing terrible compared to any other region lol

 

[Divinokage]

Not everybody but saying stuff like that coming from a lower skilled player is kinda.. lame. You can't really back up your words that way because he's too weak!

 

[john!]

haha yooooooooooo


MW is ****ing terrible compared to any other region lol

why is midwest so bad?

curious to hear people's thoughts on this

 

[Prince_Abu]

i think midwest has a lot of ok players but not that many really good ones

 

[Moooose]

haha yooooooooooo


MW is ****ing terrible compared to any other region lol

i heard duck beat u in a mm

 

[leffen]

i heard duck beat u in a mm

yes, duck beat me 2-1 in a 1 dollar money match

and he still didnt even make bracket
god damn that changes EVERYTHING

no wait its still much worse than any other region of comparable size (and many much much smaller)

yes, they have some above average players but what region doesn't lol

inb4 john talks about how good kels is
lmao

 

[PEEF!]

no wait its still much worse than any other region of comparable size (and many much much smaller)

I'm not sure you quite understand how small the active, tourneygoing Midwest population really is.

I would say we are the worst region besides Western Europe.

 

[Strong Badam]

MW isn't as good as almost any other region. I don't think you'll find anyone to argue that. It's due in part to our "size." For some of us, we have to travel 12 hrs for a regional. On the flip side, I've heard people in SoCal go "Nah I don't feel like going to that tourney 45 mins away, we went to one last weekend." It's still an irrelevant point in relation to the stage list; extremely obvious ad hominem.

 

[PEEF!]

It's still an irrelevant point in relation to the stage list; extremely obvious ad hominem.

I wouldn't call it irrelevant, as it is a real possibility that our silly stagelists have contributed somewhat to our not being as good as we could have been.

 

[john!]

no wait its still much worse than any other region of comparable size (and many much much smaller)

wow, you really think that being spread out over a large area is a good thing for the midwest tourney scene?

please let me know now if you actually think this, so i don't waste my time talking to a moron

btw, nobody has answered my question: why is the midwest worse than other regions?

 

[Moooose]

yes, duck beat me 2-1 in a 1 dollar money match

and he still didnt even make bracket
god damn that changes EVERYTHING

no wait its still much worse than any other region of comparable size (and many much much smaller)

yes, they have some above average players but what region doesn't lol

inb4 john talks about how good kels is
lmao

im not disagreeing with you. midwest is the worst region. i'm just pointing out that you lost to duck. =)