MELEE-FC Tournament Ruleset Discussion

[KishPrime]

Kish, what is your response to the fact that japes heavily promotes camping? Haing the stages split into 3 platforms like that means that certain styles of camping on the side platforms with some characters would be ridiculously powerful.

Nevermind the klaptrap, but have you considered this as a fault of japes?

Actually, its the other way around. Nationals have a tendency to deviate from the standard and then create a new "standard." Nationals actually have a tendency to go against the grain, and in doing so, progress is made.

A good question.

The side platforms are a unique feature that certainly are powerful in that way. Three points:
1. To camp, you must first earn a lead, which earns you the right to maintain a more powerful position
2. Japes does a relatively good job, though imperfect, of forcing interaction in the crossover
3. As a last resort, characters who are not good at handling this environment would ban this stage

I agree that it favors certain types of characters over others, like any stage, but I think more than a few characters are viable. And as for people who main the others, you either switch to a secondary or use the ban-hammer.

Also on your note about national stagelists setting the standard is ironic. MLG actually took FC's ruleset and then propagated that as the standard. It appears we have come full circle.

 

[baka4moé]

To camp, you must first earn a lead, which earns you the right to maintain a more powerful position

Doesn't having the lead already mean you're in a more powerful position? Why is ok to have the stage, something independent of the player, (have the "right" to) help even more?

i was gonna say something else too but i forgot

 

[KishPrime]

Doesn't having the lead already mean you're in a more powerful position? Why is ok to have the stage, something independent of the player, (have the "right" to) help even more?

i was gonna say something else too but i forgot

The premise of your question answers it. The only reason the person with a lead would have an advantage at all is if the stage grants him it. If a Fox/Falco can safely laser from across the stage, then a lead grants you nothing.

My point is that, when in doubt, it's best for the player with the lead to have an advantage rather than the opposite. Japes actually prevents some types of projectile camping.

 

[choknater]

lol man leffen, i know you're a competitive dude, but there's some things about FC that doesn't really have to do with competitive melee's metagame, but its HISTORY.

midwest and FC famous for these things
- weird stage lists
- epic crew battles
- establishing rivalries

if i was ever to go to an MW tourny that's just something i'd expect. maybe i know only because i've been in the scene for a long time. one of their famous old players is Dope, who was famous for counter picking rainbow cruise all the time.

it just wouldn't feel right without their weird stages... heck, i'm surprised poke floats is not on there. (i'd prefer it to be on LOL.)

they're not going for a regular major melee tournament. they want it to be epic. but they also want to exemplify what FC stands for, and what their region represents. if you don't want to go because you feel it would be a waste of money and it's not your kind of competition, that's fine. we all go in with a different set of expectations.

MW has always been doing this so if i were to go, i know i'd have a blast. i'm sure NONE of the players are used to this ruleset so it'll be a fun, new experience for everybody.

i find it great that kish has all the logic to back up the stage list too. even so, we ALL KNOW the list is mad janky lol. but that's part of the fun of FC.

 

[Fregadero]

Going back to an earlier idea of Leffen's, I think it would ease a lot of peoples issues with this ruleset of there was some method of trading cp bans for neutral bans.

Maybe allowing for a trade of 3 cp's for one neutral. I think its less extreme than all cps for one neutral.

I'm not necessarily in favor of an idea like this, but I think it would help ease this stage disagreement that will not be resolved without a rule change.

 

[Kal]

I remember watching Rayzorium beat Dope's Falco on Rainbow Cruise with Falcon. That was an exciting *** set.

Boat Mode, if you already have three bans, I don't see how what you've suggested is any different.

 

[KishPrime]

Or eliminating all of the counterpick stages, but you give up the ability to change your character.

There's about a million fun ways to play this game.

 

[ORLY]

The Kishes are the TOs of my dreams.

 

[Fregadero]

My post was more about the idea, and I didn't think much further than that. I just dont like the idea of trade 1 neutral for all cps, when there are more cps than neutrals to begin with. But the more of these you put in the longer each set takes. Oh the life of a TO. Slave away for hours to everyone can have a good time whild still maintaining integrity, everyone hates you.

Maybe something like, if requested by one or both players, first stage is neutral strike, then winner gets three bans, loser cps from 8 stages, ect.

Compromise is stupid. Here's your dinner, ****ing eat it. Or leave.

 

[Mew2King]

imo get rid of rainbow, you have to be spacie to be able to win there at all

i feel jungle japes is more fair than rainbow because multiple chars can win on that stage while you pretty much have to be spacie to win on rainbow

 

[Violence]

I also like the idea of "true neutral," as proposed by Scar. It works especially well with a large stage set.

The stage both players strike to in game 1 is regarded as true neutral and both sides can counter pick it freely regardless of who wins on it.

 

[Fregadero]

That gives a lot of power to whoever gets that last strike.

 

[KishPrime]

Someone sent me that. I don't believe in double jeopardy, hence the FC rule. If you beat someone on their best counterpick, then you shouldn't have to face their best counterpick again (which it probably is, if the person wants to go back there) unless you agree to it. Which you may, if you won there anyway. Finality of the set, making each round matter, blah blah blah. Shrug.

If both players agree, then they can do whatever the heck they want, stagewise.

 

[LuCKy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOspjmvBSpE

not complaining about the rules but this reminded me of a very sad match LOL

i definitely read the last roll for an up smash on the last stock

 

[Lovage]

historical tournaments gonna be historical i guess, if ya'll want to use a bunk stagelist then it'll probably work out fine. the tourny will be like 4x better if you just use the apex ruleset tho.

 

[KishPrime]

historical tournaments gonna be historical i guess, if ya'll want to use a bunk stagelist then it'll probably work out fine. the tourny will be like 4x better if you just use the apex ruleset tho.

The stagelist is officially called the "Bunk Bed' stagelist, if you please.

The Ship is very careful with its naming policies.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOspjmvBSpE

Haha...nice end indeed.

 

[ORLY]

lol lucky that was a tragic end for you

brinstar too good

 

[RFrizzle]

Mushroom kingdom 2? lol i'm done.

 

[Shai Hulud]

As for the randomness- are you serious? Yes, both brinstar, mk2 and junglejapes have PATTERNS, but there is still a VERY huge difference (5 seconds often... and that is A LOT)

Even if you know what pattern the fish takes on JJ for example, that there is still enough variation in the timing that would mean death/no death from a shine at 0% and you can't react to it either.

I am pretty sure on JJ the crocodile appears exactly every 15 seconds in a given spot. I will check this later. Don't know about MK2 as to whether Birdo appears randomly, I will check, but it's not that big an issue as you can easily see when the eggs are coming.

Brinstar is more objectionable than these other stages IMO.

I think a lot of players just assume non MBR5 stages are "random" even though many of them are not.

EDIT: Briefly checked JJ, looks like the crocodile is slightly random, appears every 11 - 15 seconds in a given spot. Still not a huge thing IMO, just be very wary of those ledges.

 

[Construct]

Not that my opinion matters for anything at all, but I for one really like where you're going with this.

 

[Lovage]

its not even about them being random/predictable/exploitable or not. it's about them being ****ing ******** stages that no good player wants to play on LOL.

really sucks when i feel we've reached the highest level of competition in melee with the help of our reserved stagelist and now we're gonna be seeing PP vs. armada turnip/laser camping on CORNERIA. no one wants to see that at all in an international grand finals lol.

people play to win nowdays, you WON'T see unique and exciting matches on dumb stages because everyone it's 2012 and everyone is gonna camp each other LOL.

 

[Shai Hulud]

its not even about them being random/predictable/exploitable or not. it's about them being ****ing ******** stages that no good player wants to play on LOL.

really sucks when i feel we've reached the highest level of competition in melee with the help of our reserved stagelist and now we're gonna be seeing PP vs. armada turnip/laser camping on CORNERIA. no one wants to see that at all in an international grand finals lol.

people play to win nowdays, you WON'T see unique and exciting matches on dumb stages because everyone it's 2012 and everyone is gonna camp each other LOL.

Corneria is actually not one of the legal stages for singles.

 

[KishPrime]

GAH NINJA

Corneria's not on in Singles, so that will not, in fact, happen. Plus one of them could ban it.

 

[JPOBS]

What about the notion that one of the players could just completely go for jank and ban BF/FD/Dreamland and essentially be guaranteed to play on some bunk bed stage?

 

[Battlecow]

Welp, I guess I'm not entering melee.

I really dislike jank stages, and I don't want to get drawn into a meandering philosophical discussion about the "true purpose" of melee and "playing it as completely as possible." I just don't wanna get grabbed by a random-*** klaptrap that no one's had to deal with since 2007 and die for no good reason.

 

[KishPrime]

I'm pretty sure if you just burn neutrals that you'll end up on a cp that's bad for your character...so...

 

[baka4moé]

Or eliminating all of the counterpick stages, but you give up the ability to change your character.

IM ALL FOR THIS. please lol

 

[Kal]

Supposing my only goal is to reach a bunk bed stage (I actually quite like calling them that), and my opponent's only goal is not to reach one, with the assumption that I strike first, with red indicating a ban, green indicating a strike, and blue indicating the stage to play the first match on:

1)

• Starter
• Starter
• Starter

2)

• Counterpick
• Counterpick
• Counterpick

3)

• Starter

4)

• Counterpick
  [*]Counterpick

5)

• Starter

So we will be playing on a Starter.

The remaining four stages being half-counterpick and half-starter. What I get out of this is the choice of which starter the first match will be played on (it will necessarily be a starter), as well as the choice of what the two remaining starter stages will be. My opponent gets the choice of what the two remaining counterpick stages will be.

This analysis is sort of overkill. I just like the colors. There are six starters and five counterpicks, and both players get three bans + two strikes. In the end, you can always force a starter stage.

 

[JPOBS]

Yea, you can force a starter stage round 1, and guarantee 2 BUNK BED cps.

Meh.

edited for great justice

 

[Kal]

*bunk bed CPs

just saiyan

 

[KishPrime]

Yea, you can force a starter stage round 1, and guarantee 2 bunk bed cps.

Meh.

Yeah, but they're the two bunk bed stages that your character is the worst on.

It doesn't play to your advantage to only ban MBR5 stages.

 

[Strong Badam]

bunk bed stages sound so comfortable

 

[KrIsP!]

Please, "A scrub is a player who is handicapped by self-imposed rules that the game knows nothing about. A scrub does not play to win. "

A scrub is actually a fighting game player who inputs random moves thinking all combos come from scrubbing the controller buttons. But these days scrub has replaced noob outside of the mainstream so I couldn't care less, everyone knows when your local news station says something from the internet is loses all meaning.

As for this ruleset, I'm not going so I can't say much but I feel it helps spacies more when they don't need help. As well as most top tiers but I guess that's not something you can avoid, they're currently banned for a reason, maybe just allow people to play on the same stage twice to help out non-spacies.

 

[Wake]

Mute City. Huh. I like weird stages, except Brinstar. Lawd have mercy that stage is terrible.

MK2 sounds hilarious, by the way. You can catch Birdo's eggs right?

 

[Shai Hulud]

A scrub is actually a fighting game player who inputs random moves thinking all combos come from scrubbing the controller buttons. But these days scrub has replaced noob outside of the mainstream so I couldn't care less, everyone knows when your local news station says something from the internet is loses all meaning.

Well that is the origin of the word, but the word has been exported to other games besides fighting games, and has a wider meaning than "a player who mashes buttons." The idea of a "scrub mentality" originates from the common mentality of these types of players (button-mashers). But people of all skill levels can have a scrub mentality. In fact it's very common in the Smash community at all skill levels, much more so than many other games, probably due to the goofy nature of the franchise, which just attracts scrubs.

As for this ruleset, I'm not going so I can't say much but I feel it helps spacies more when they don't need help. As well as most top tiers but I guess that's not something you can avoid, they're currently banned for a reason, maybe just allow people to play on the same stage twice to help out non-spacies.

"They're currently banned for a reason" is true, but it doesn't mean the reason is a good one. And years ago, the stages weren't banned, so someone could say "Hey, these stages were unbanned for a reason." I hope you see why your position is arbitrary.

You also shouldn't look at stages under the lens of which characters they help. You are presupposing that certain characters, say, Fox and Falco, should only be so good, and that they should be gimped by removing their best stages. This is invalid IMO. You should also keep in mind that some counterpicks (e.g., Brinstar) are bad for Fox and Falco. The counterpick stages don't universally help certain characters, in other words.

 

[Divinokage]

Mute City. Huh. I like weird stages, except Brinstar. Lawd have mercy that stage is terrible.

MK2 sounds hilarious, by the way. You can catch Birdo's eggs right?

Wtf, Peach is amazing on Brinstar, you on crack? lol.

 

[Wake]

So I've been told. I don't like playing there though haha. I'd honestly rather just go to RC. It's more fun than Brinstar anyways.

 

[ORLY]

wake i can teach you the mystical ways of brinstar

mother brinstar must accept you as her acolyte before you may have her blessing

 

[Wake]

Ok I would enjoy playing a ton on Brinstar with you, Orly. No way that wouldn't be fun.

 

[ORLY]

dart and i played for about three hours on brinstar once

it.. was a rough afternoon for him

but he wanted to learn!

EDIT: the night before FC, we will play many games there, wake.