Melee community: would you have REALLY cared if L-canceling was automatic?

[Havokbringer]

What the hell is this ****.

and why the **** does it matter L-cancelling isn't going to change.

Get the **** over it and stop posting about dumass what ifs.

 

[jugfingers]

hey some people are having a lot of fun in this thread.

 

[Havokbringer]

Im just kidding. :D

Nah I don't mind that its being brought up.

Just why fight about it?

if your wrong your wrong so what?

means you just learned something and isnt that more worth it then looking like an idiot?

 

[metaXzero]

Point of brawl+ is to make brawl a melee with more characters and stages. Thats it. No need to try and upgrade what is already amazing.

So keep the necessity to press the button. If you cant learn to time it, or arent coordinated enough, your wasting your time with melee (or brawl+) and should just play brawl.

Point of Brawl+ is to make a deeper Smash game that is still accessible to newbs, NOT Melee 2.0 (we already have Melee remember). If it's going to be technical, it's going to be technical for a reason. Plus it will never be Melee

Here
(In the post that Skler quoted I mean......)
Also your whole argument is just dumb "boils down to whether or not you like to press the button."

Really?

Have you been in here the past like 16 pages or do you choose not to read?

It doesn't preserve the deepness of the game either, learning to l cancel consistently and keeping that consistency is part of skill. saying technical consistency isn't skill or that doing something manually is as deep as the game doing it for you is outright dumb. Muscle memory is something you have to develop and even then it's not 100% or else humans would be perfect. Have you even played melee?

edit thank you skler <3

After looking through these several posts, I CAN agree that it adds depth through difficulty for comboing with Spacies. However, my stance is unchanged when it comes to the rest of the cast.

 

[Banks]

Easier Controls

Inside Street Fighter, there is a wonderful battle of wits, but many potential players are locked out of experiencing it because they can't dragon punch or do Fei Long's flying kicks, or whatever other joystick gymnastics. I'm reversing the trend. There's only so far I can go with this and still call it SF2, but wherever I could, I turned the knob towards easy execution of moves. Let's emphasize good decision making—the true core of competitive games—and get rid of artificially difficult commands.

This will get more players interested in the game, eventually leading to more competition. It will also get players past the awkward beginner phase faster and into the intermediate phase where the interesting strategy starts to emerge.

There are some players who wrongly believe that this "dumbs the game down." Actually, the opposite is true. Experts can perform special moves already, so the changes listed below have very little effect on them. Experts will care about actual balance changes such as hitboxes, recovery times, new properties for some moves, and so on. Making special moves easier, however, just allows everyone else to play the "real" game without needing to develop hundreds of hours of muscle memory just to perform the moves. It's actually sad to hear that some players think that their ability to excecute a 360 command throw is why they are good, as opposed to the actual strategy of getting close enough to the opponent with Zangief to land the throw.

Another wrong-headed comment I often get is that easier controls don't leave enough skills in the game to separate good and bad players. The statement is absurd. Easier special moves don't change the strategic depth of the game at all (and the actual balance changes in HD Remix hopefully increase the strategic depth). Furthermore, there's no shortage of nuaces for experts. Does Cammy's dragon punch beat Fei Longs? It depends on exactly who did it first, which means that 1/60th of a second timing is just as important as ever. So is positioning, spacing, the difficulty of performing comobs, and the skill of reading the mind of the opponent.

^this is metax's argument articulated by someone with much more experience. I personally think it's different for smash but, at least this guy makes complexity arguments for street fighter pretty well, and this is what Metax is TRYING to say. But unlike street fighter, lcancelling isn't overly complex, you say yourself most people can do it most of the time, it just adds a barrier of skill (which you think is bad) preventing nooby players from moving flawlessly, and keeps good players working to do so.

 

[jugfingers]

After looking through these several posts, I CAN agree that it adds depth through difficulty for comboing with Spacies. However, my stance is unchanged when it comes to the rest of the cast.

you have to be able to l-cancel faster for spacies but other characters have more difficult timing for alot of there aerials, so basically the reason that your opinion is unchanged for the rest of the cast is because your opinion isn't based on rational thought......and your a scrub.

 

[Havokbringer]

Bank just ***** this arguement.

Go home

close the thread.

 

[jugfingers]

basically that sirlin is saying that that he doesn't want any technical obstacles to hinder the mental game.

this kind of thing is exactly what the halo players were so upset about when halo 2 came out.

skill level betwenn players in

halo 1


Noob---------------------------------Intermediate----------------------------------------------pro


halo 2

noob---------intermediate-----------Pro





smash bros with manual l-cancelling


Noob---------------------------------Intermediate----------------------------------------------pro


smash with auto l-cancelling

noob---------intermediate-----------Pro






is this really what you want?

 

[Banks]

but..but...we GOT IT


ITSA CALLED BARLW

 

[Havokbringer]

Hahahaha.

dont get hit.

 

[metaXzero]

^this is metax's argument articulated by someone with much more experience. I personally think it's different for smash but, at least this guy makes complexity arguments for street fighter pretty well, and this is what Metax is TRYING to say. But unlike street fighter, lcancelling isn't overly complex, you say yourself most people can do it most of the time, it just adds a barrier of skill (which you think is bad) preventing nooby players from moving flawlessly, and keeps good players working to do so.

T_T I wish I could copy-pasta that Sirlin quote into the OP...

For Fox and Falco, I can agree it adds a barrier of skill. However with everyone else, it just remains a pointless tech barrier keeping new players in the beginner phase.

you have to be able to l-cancel faster for spacies but other characters have more difficult timing for alot of there aerials, so basically the reason that your opinion is unchanged for the rest of the cast is because your opinion isn't based on rational thought......and your a scrub.

It's not the timing alone. It's the timing in combination with other things that has me convinced. All the other things Fox/Falco's have to do precisely in combination with L-canceling makes it understandable and relevent depth. HOWEVER, with other characters who aren't as technically defined, L-canceling goes back to a simple button press that holds people in the beginner phase while doing nothing to seperate those in the mid-to-top phase.

 

[jugfingers]

lol yea straight up, brawl+ might even close the gap between noobs and pros further with auto l-cancelling who knows.


Edit

. HOWEVER, with other characters who aren't as technically defined, L-canceling goes back to a simple button press that holds people in the beginner phase while doing nothing to seperate those in the mid-to-top phase.

this is just factually incorrect, technical skill does seperate mid to top players,

 

[metaXzero]

but..but...we GOT IT


ITSA CALLED BARLW

BARLW Got not no L-canceling at all T_T

basically that sirlin is saying that that he doesn't want any technical obstacles to hinder the mental game.

this kind of thing is exactly what the halo players were so upset about when halo 2 came out.

skill level betwenn players in

halo 1


Noob---------------------------------Intermediate----------------------------------------------pro


halo 2

noob---------intermediate-----------Pro





smash bros with manual l-cancelling


Noob---------------------------------Intermediate----------------------------------------------pro


smash with auto l-cancelling

noob---------intermediate-----------Pro






is this really what you want?

Excluding the spacies,

If it increases competition while still giving options for players to be better, why not?

 

[metaXzero]

lol yea straight up, brawl+ might even close the gap between noobs and pros further with manual l-cancelling who knows.

Auto=Automatic
Manual=Do it yourself

lol

 

[jugfingers]

Auto=Automatic
Manual=Do it yourself

lol

hey thanks playa

 

[jugfingers]

BARLW Got not no L-canceling at all T_T


Excluding the spacies,

If it increases competition while still giving options for players to be better, why not?

no the point is that it doesn't give players the option to be better, it takes that option away by making a technical skill automatic, remember.



technically speaking

 

[Banks]

i think one of the problems is that the developers didn't see the use of wavedashing when they made the game, and couldn't have forseen things like the waveshine etc, so if lcancelling had been automatic it would have made fox and falco look **** broken when people discovered wavedash. luckily theres this skill barrier that prevents people from shining automatically after every aerial while shffling around like a rabid animal.

 

[metaXzero]

no the point is that it doesn't give players the option to be better, it takes that option away by making a technical skill automatic, remember.



technically speaking

As I've repeated many times, mid-to-high level players will get their L-cancels enough to the point that it will have no bearing on what seperates the players in skill (Unless they are Fox/Falco). It's just a pointless tech after you are used to it...

i think one of the problems is that the developers didn't see the use of wavedashing when they made the game, and couldn't have forseen things like the waveshine etc, so if lcancelling had been automatic it would have made fox and falco look **** broken when people discovered wavedash. luckily theres this skill barrier that prevents people from shining automatically after every aerial while shffling around like a rabid animal.

lol

But yeah, that's pretty much why I changed my stance on L-canceling when it came to Fox and Falco...

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

smash bros with manual l-cancelling


Noob---------------------------------Intermediate----------------------------------------------pro


smash with auto l-cancelling

noob---------intermediate-----------Pro

No, that really wouldn't happen. L canceling is not that huge of a hastle to learn. Sure learning to do it consistently in matches take some tech skill, but saying that it's half of the learning curve to becoming a pro is beyond stupid.

your a definition of a scrub.

Learn the definition of "scrub".
hell, in play to win, Sirlin (who as far as I know started using the term) called people who would say that combos that required complex button inputs where skill based SCRUBS. Scrubs where people who called tactics that didn't require such things "cheap" and "noobish".
God, I become ****ing ashamed of the Melee community when they say that Brawl sucks just b/c it doesn't require tech skill. If that was the only negative thing about the game it might've been worth my time, but as it is now I haven't touched for over 4 months


Has anything else been said as an argument for L-canceling been said then "I like to press buttons b/c it's challenging"? (Except Skler's "make your opponent miss L-cancels" argument) Meta predicted that this would happen in the first post, lol.

 

[Csg999]

Making L-cancels automatic would be horrible in my opinion as such characters as gannon, dk and bowser would be just to fast for their strength

It shows that to make a slow character fast requires timing and skill

 

[metaXzero]

No, that really wouldn't happen. L canceling is not that huge of a hastle to learn. Sure learning to do it consistently in matches take some tech skill, but saying that it's half of the learning curve to becoming a pro is beyond stupid.
Learn the definition of "scrub".
hell, in play to win, Sirlin (who as far as I know started using the term) called people who would say that combos that required complex button inputs where skill based SCRUBS. Scrubs where people who called tactics that didn't require such things "cheap" and "noobish".
God, I become ****ing ashamed of the Melee community when they say that Brawl sucks just b/c it doesn't require tech skill. If that was the only negative thing about the game it might've been worth my time, but as it is now I haven't touched for over 4 months


Has anything else been said as an argument for L-canceling been said then "I like to press buttons b/c it's challenging"? (Except Skler's "make your opponent miss L-cancels" argument) Meta predicted that this would happen in the first post, lol.

In the cases of Fox/Falco, I can accept the depth given by L-canceling due to the fact that when combined with everything else, it shows skill in being able to execute Fox/Falco's technical combos. It'd be too easy and spammy without L-canceling added. However, that's the only case that I've changed my stance. For the rest of the cast, it's still a pointless tech barrier that mid-to-high players may feel accomplished by despite the utter simplicity of it...

 

[metaXzero]

Making L-cancels automatic would be horrible in my opinion as such characters as gannon, dk and bowser would be just to fast for their strength

It shows that to make a slow character fast requires timing and skill

Those who mastered L-canceling know that Heavies are FAR from broken with their increased speed. And as said, it just puts a pointless tech barrier between those new to it and those used accustomed.

Well, I'll be gone until Saturday, so whatever happens in this thread happens so............peace?

 

[BrawlLover]

the melee community understands smash better than the brawl community

 

[Corigames]

I don't L-cancel that much, this does not affect me.

 

[Darth Waffles]

Has anything else been said as an argument for L-canceling been said then "I like to press buttons b/c it's challenging"? (Except Skler's "make your opponent miss L-cancels" argument) Meta predicted that this would happen in the first post, lol.

Have you read my post on page 15? I mentioned both of these arguments and more. Even Wobbles contradicted himself when he said that it should be automatic because it puts "unnecessary technical pressure" on the player, yet supported the fact that L-cancelling is so necessary and easy to do, which was why there was a call for it to be automated in the first place ("There's never a time when you wouldn't want to L-cancel"). He and/or Meta said that you play "assuming" that you'll both L-cancel regularly, also leading to the "easy" aspect of it.

Also, be careful about saying that Meta predicted that Skler would argue that aspect. He's edited it at least twice, with the most recent being after Skler originally posted his viewpoint, even if it's not set off by the edits. I don't remember the Fox and Falco part of the 1st post as being part of his original post, and he eventually (partially) relented, saying that L-cancelling adds considerable depth to the spacies. That pretty much traps him, since you wouldn't make L-cancelling automatic for some/most of the characters, so either way, you'ld lose. If you take out Fox and Falco, for instance, by giving everyone else automatic L-cancelling, that's a large number of people affected right there anyway. He admitted that it added considerable depth to their game, but automatic L-cancelling is an all-or-nothing proposal.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

He didn't predict skler's argument.
I remember entering the thread when it first was created and he was saying that the argument had so far in the brawl boards essentially boiled down to "I like press buttons", asking if there where other reasons for L-canceling to be manual. And so far, no good reasons except Skler's "make your opponent miss L-cancels" have been made.

I don't recall wobbles saying that L-canceling is easy. I could be wrong, but I don't remember seeing. He just said that it's unnecessary to have it be manual since you always want to L-cancel anyway.

I still don't understand how L-canceling could give the game more depth. More button inputs (with specific timing) doesn't mean there's any more depth. Lol, that'd make smash a very shallow game compared to something like MvC2. If we where forced to press X-Y in a specific rythm when we wanted to run rather then holding the control stick in a direction, would that also give the game more depth?
Tech skill? Sure. Depth? No.

I don't really understand why you're telling me stuff meta said. How does it even relate to my post? Do I care? lol

Anyway, this is my opion on the subject:
Since you always wan't to L-cancel, there is no point in not being able to L-cancel. Controller wise it doesn't serve any purpose. Why is it there, then? Well, maybe so that the game will become more technically demanding which is fun. But the problem with it is that it discourages new players. I've started practicing people who had the potential to become good, but stopped because they found the game to technically demanding.
Is there a solution to this? Yes, I think there is (not that we'll ever change it or anything lol). The tech skill could still be a part of the game, but it could be made less necessary so less technically skilled players would still be able to compete. Tech skill should imo give you more options and advantages here and there, but you shouldn't be unable to play the game competitively if you are lacking in the area.
For example: I can shine out shield consistently, which gives me an advantage in many matchups, like the one vs. falco. Because of it, no falco is safe shieldpressuring me. But someone who can't do that can still play the game and compete vs. these falco's.

Since L-canceling is such a barrier for newcomers, and since we would STILL have loads of the tech skill parts of melee (which is fun) without it, why should it be there?

Spoiler

I'm gonna get flamed because I want to be inviting to newcomers rather then arrogant, lol.

 

[Darth Waffles]

...pointless difficulty l-canceling adds to the game.

It's one tiny glimmer of hope that you'll get an opening for a trickshot ZTD combo, and given that most technically sound players won't mess up anyhow, ...

L canceling is not that huge of a hastle to learn. Sure learning to do it consistently in matches take some tech skill, but saying that it's half of the learning curve to becoming a pro is beyond stupid.

L-cancelling is clearly, according to these three quotes, a necessity, but NOT hard to do. You and Meta are definitely more tied to this issue than Wobbles is, but he still mentions it a few times.

Anyway, this is my opion on the subject:
Since you always wan't to L-cancel, there is no point in not being able to L-cancel...

This sounds suspiciously (exactly) like what Wobbles and Meta said, which I argued against in the page 15 post. We're disagreeing over the presence or lack of depth that a possibly-missed L-cancel brings to the table, as well as the "slippery slope effect" (Yes, I brought it up again) that it might lead to.

EDIT: Possible scenario: There's a split in the community's reaction to automatic L-cancelling, instead of one viewpoint clearly being "right" over the other. That's not necessarily a bad thing, since the original topic is if the community would have cared. You're entitled to your own opinion, and so am I, even if they don't necessarily lead to one being right (which we both think we are) and one being wrong.

 

[jugfingers]

As I've repeated many times, mid-to-high level players will get their L-cancels enough to the point that it will have no bearing on what seperates the players in skill (Unless they are Fox/Falco). It's just a pointless tech after you are used to it...


lol

just because you've repeated it many times doesn't make it correct, and as i've made an argument against this point you've just repeatedly ignored it

l-canceling can be done extremely quickly. players like dashizwiz and silentwolf can shffl moves far faster than anyone else, this seperates them TECHNICALLY from basically all other players, which gives them an advantage in certain aspects. it doesn't make them win every match because there is alot of different factors involved in being good at smash but it does allow them to dominate in certain situations and strings of combos.

again there is different speeds to which you can l-cancel moves aerials it is not as simple as just learning to l-cancel and then you can do it the same as everyone else. this is a misinformed opinion and you should stop repeating it over and over as though its correct.

No, that really wouldn't happen. L canceling is not that huge of a hastle to learn. Sure learning to do it consistently in matches take some tech skill, but saying that it's half of the learning curve to becoming a pro is beyond stupid.
Learn the definition of "scrub".
hell, in play to win, Sirlin (who as far as I know started using the term) called people who would say that combos that required complex button inputs where skill based SCRUBS. Scrubs where people who called tactics that didn't require such things "cheap" and "noobish".
God, I become ****ing ashamed of the Melee community when they say that Brawl sucks just b/c it doesn't require tech skill. If that was the only negative thing about the game it might've been worth my time, but as it is now I haven't touched for over 4 months


Has anything else been said as an argument for L-canceling been said then "I like to press buttons b/c it's challenging"? (Except Skler's "make your opponent miss L-cancels" argument) Meta predicted that this would happen in the first post, lol.

first of all I believe TLC coined the term scrub.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av7m_Pgt1S8


also if you read some of the posts in this thread there has actually been alot argued for l-canceling other than making your opponent miss.

alot of my argument had to do with timing and precision, and speed

I think the main flaw in your argument is that l-cancelling is the same for everyone once you can do it. this is what metaxzero is repeating again and again to no end


I used to think this too because I could shffl all of my moves consistently I thought ok Im as technical a player as anyone in terms of shffl moves, you know triple nair to knee combos on marth whatever. and then I went to my first tournament and played friendlies with forward for half and hour and only got one stock off him in that time due to a fluke kill, a huge reason for this was his ability to shffl moves many times faster than me to the point where I was basically useless as an opponent. I had no chance due to the huge technical barrier between us although I could shffl all of my moves consistently. just not at his speed.

its not that his lag was decreased more than mine but his ability to jump out of that lag or dash out of that lag and then REPEAT another shffl'd move was incredibly fast compared to me, the repetition of the l-canceled aerial is what makes it technically demanding and gives an exceptional player the ability to perform **** combos that not anyone else can do,



saying that once you learn l-canceling you can l-cancel like pros is just not true.
its like saying once I learn a crossover I can crossover as fast as allen iverson

its just not true, so please refute this statement or stop repeatedly use that as an argument.

the melee community understands smash better than the brawl community

lol

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

^^Being able to time your dash/jump/whatever after the lag of an arial is a good example of a tech skill that wouldn't change if L canceling didn't exist. lol
SW's and DSW's L cancels aren't faster, it's just that they time whatever they do afterwards better.... Which makes them faster and more technical. The lag after the arial is the same if you L cancel it.
If L canceling was automatic, these people would still be just as much faster then us.

Once you can L-cancel you can L-cancel. It IS the same for everyone. THAT's what I said. Does this make you as technical and your shffl's as fast as the pro's? hell no! Try shffling arials into shine repeatedly like SW does in Zelghandi. L-canceling is probably the easiest part of that.

L-cancelling is clearly, according to these three quotes, a necessity, but NOT hard to do. You and Meta are definitely more tied to this issue than Wobbles is, but he still mentions it a few times.

Not according to my quote. Read it again.

 

[Darth Waffles]

I was going to put the TLC link in if you didn't lol

 

[Binx]

I dunno jug, I've played with a lot of people, and pretty much everyone I've played with shuffles about the same, better players seem fast because they move more and they move more unpredictably so you don't expect things and can't follow whats going on as easily, but forward didn't beat you because he is more technically, although he probably is. He beat you because he's smarter, he's just technical enough to do everything he can think, and thats all you really need in this game.

Auto L cancel wouldn't be a very big deal, it would actually improve the level of thought people put into the game because they wouldn't be able to john about missing them, I'll be the first to admit I occasionally miss L cancels probably about 10% of them when I'm Fox, at least until I warm up, even if I hit them 100% I wouldn't care if everyone could because it's not that hard, I never took the time to practice with Fox because I play Ice Climbers so much, after enough games it won't be an issue anymore.

And actually fast shufflers aren't L canceling any faster they are just jumping sooner afterwards, you can only shuffle during a certain window and it isn't hitting L that is making them better at, it's timing the next attack, which better players would still do, and worse players still wouldn't.

EDIT: LOL someone beat me to my last paragraph as I was writing this T.T

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Dude you said it much better then I did anyway.

 

[Darth Waffles]

You wrote the following:
"No, that really wouldn't happen. L canceling is not that huge of a hastle to learn. Sure learning to do it consistently in matches take some tech skill, but saying that it's half of the learning curve to becoming a pro is beyond stupid."

There's definitely an "It's easy" aspect in the fact that you're saying it has very little effect on actually progressing through the learning curve, and the fact that it's "...not that huge of a hastle to learn." You do, however, say that it takes "some tech skill," but all that does is then refute Wobbles' quote.
Since we're bothering to learn L-cancelling in the first place, despite its lack of getting us through the learning curve, it's also a necessity. How do you see this otherwise?

Oh, and jug, you walked yourself right into that one =\

 

[Magus420]

We're disagreeing over the presence or lack of depth that a possibly-missed L-cancel brings to the table, as well as the "slippery slope effect" (Yes, I brought it up again) that it might lead to.

What slippery slope effect?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I meant that it's a small part of in the process of becoming a freakin pro. I didn't say it was easy, I said it wasn't a big enough hastle to be considered that large of a part the overall skill in melee. Take a look at that "process of becoming a pro" thing jugs did (that I was replying to when I posted that). It implied that with L-canceling becoming a pro is twice as hard >.>. There is NO WAY l-canceling is THAT hard. Do you think consistent L-canceling is the reason m2k is where he is?

 

[Darth Waffles]

I meant that it's a small part of in the process of becoming a freakin pro. I didn't say it was easy, I said it wasn't a big enough hastle to be considered that large of a part the overall skill in melee. Take a look at that "process of becoming a pro" thing jugs did (that I was replying to when I posted that). It implied that with L-canceling becoming a pro is twice as hard >.>. There is NO WAY l-canceling is THAT hard. Do you think consistent L-canceling is the reason m2k is where he is?

Do you think NOT consistent L-cancelling ISN'T a reason for why people AREN'T as good as he is? Yes, there are other aspects involved, and as Wobbles said, times of spacing and such are where strategic choice comes in. As I mentioned earlier, I think that trying to force missed L-cancels is ALWAYS a strategic choice, something that Wobbles himself said that he had no refutation for.

Quoting you is sometimes interesting because edit your post before I finish mine. Sorry if I'm the same way.

Magus, check out my post on the bottom of page 15, starting with "You want to l-cancel."

 

[Lirok]

How many noobs that cant even L cancel will go through all the trouble to play brawl+ anyways?

Just a possible factor.

 

[Geist]

Um...
if Lcancelling was automatic it wouldn't exist. It would all just turn relative.

L Cancelling doesn't really separate those who can do it from those who can't. Those who can't obviously havn't spent the 30 some-odd minutes it takes to figure out how, and the few days it takes to get it down to usefullness.
It's a whole separate face of Melee's technical side. Might as well give us auto-sweetspots as well, in all honesty >_>

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Do you think NOT consistent L-cancelling ISN'T a reason for why people AREN'T as good as he is?

People who have developed so little in the game that they can't even L-cancel are so far from m2k in skill level it doesn't even matter. They'd still get jv 5 stocked.
If you're saying that not l-canceling is a reason why people who suck suck, then sure, I agree. It's still a minimal part in the overall skill required in melee. I'd even say that it's overall not a huge part in tech skill, but maybe that's because I play fox.

lol, i always edit my posts a ton.

 

[jugfingers]

Once you can L-cancel you can L-cancel. It IS the same for everyone. THAT's what I said.

I know thats what you said.....thats what I was refuting

^^Being able to time your dash/jump/whatever after the lag of an arial is a good example of a tech skill that wouldn't change if L canceling didn't exist. lol
SW's and DSW's L cancels aren't faster, it's just that they time whatever they do afterwards better.... Which makes them faster and more technical. The lag after the arial is the same if you L cancel it.
If L canceling was automatic, these people would still be just as much faster then us.

Does this make you as technical and your shffl's as fast as the pro's? hell no! Try shffling arials into shine repeatedly like SW does in Zelghandi. L-canceling is probably the easiest part of that.

I huge part of the speed of silentwolfs shffling is due to the fact that he jumps out of the canceled lag or shine faster than the average person, BUT another huge part is the speed at which he executes another shffl'd aerial. and the faster you repeat this process the more difficult it is to time your l-cancel properly.

for a moderately quickly shffld drillshine l-cancelling is easy because you can spam it whenever you want on the way down as long as you press it before you hit the ground.
BUT when you start shffling moves as fast as silentwolf is in zelghandi and your jamming the control stick down the very frame you reach the peak of your shorthop your now more concerned with getting the getting the L-button pressed before you hit the ground. because the window in which you can input that command is now greatly reduced.

its not that his lag was decreased more than mine but his ability to jump out of that lag or dash out of that lag and then REPEAT another shffl'd move was incredibly fast

^^^

I was going to put the TLC link in if you didn't lol

lol

I dunno jug, I've played with a lot of people, and pretty much everyone I've played with shuffles about the same,

have you played dashizwiz and silentwolf, bombsoldier?


its not that the shffl'd move in itself is any faster but it is the repetition of that technique that becomes more difficult when the speed is increased.


I linked this video earlier in this thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig2kVduNIAM

as an example at 1:16-1:21 dashizwiz pulls off a pretty devastating combo which involves L-cancelling a dair (1:18-1:19) onto the bush platform and then dashing off and L-cancelling a dair onto the ground below.

you cannot honestly say that everyone can do this as quickly as he does. because its not true. the speed at which you have to press L when dropping off that bush and fastfalling a dair into the ground is not something many proficient l-cancelling players can do.