Melee community: would you have REALLY cared if L-canceling was automatic?

[Winston]

Eggm and Scar bring up probably the most valid point for the pro L-cancelling side, which is that it's not uncommon even for top players to miss L-cancels occasionally, especially under pressure.

Removing L-cancelling wouldn't change the speed or strategy of the game at all; what it would do is mitigate the effects of nerves. If you think that those who can maintain perfect technical play under pressure should be rewarded, then L-cancelling is a plus.

 

[Eggm]

Eggm and Scar bring up probably the most valid point for the pro L-canceling side, which is that it's not uncommon even for top players to miss L-cancels occasionally, especially under pressure.

Removing L-cancelling wouldn't change the speed or strategy of the game at all; what it would do is mitigate the effects of nerves. If you think that those who can maintain perfect technical play under pressure should be rewarded, then L-canceling is a plus.

He basically wins the thread. All we are arguing over is if you think melee is a bit too intense and or technically difficult and if you think it is you'll probably be on the pro automatic side. If not probably you are on the pro manual side. From wobbles and everyone elses points you can tell that if there were a tech to alleviate the too intense / technically demanding point it would in fact be l-canceling as it would affect the overall game play the least of removing anything. So all we are really arguing over is how hard should melee be? That's kinda dumb. Lol.

I personally like it really intense/technically demanding that's what attracted me to the game and part of what I really like about it. IMO something isn't worth getting in to competitive wise unless it does take a lot of dedication and time to become good at, so i like it the way it is. I realize by your posts that removing this wouldn't affect the game all that much especially with spacing mind games and all that, but it would lose something special about the game i love whatever it may be no matter how small or how big, and you aren't going to change my mind about it and i suspect others that feel like me so this argument is rather pointless. <_<

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

All we are arguing over is if you think melee is a bit too intense and or technically difficult and if you think it is you'll probably be on the pro automatic side. If not probably you are on the pro manual side.

This part is not true. I don't think people like Magus and Wobbles are particuarly worried about missing L-cancels. (you know that better then me though, chances are you've played with them, idk)

My whole argument is that L-cancel is pointless and doesn't surve any purpose, so I wouldn't have minded if it wasn't there. Just because I can do it (under pressure) doesn't mean I think it serves a purpose when it doesn't, lol

As for the game being technically demanding I like it aswell, but it would still be technically demanding even without L-canceling, making L-cancel pointless. But like I said I don't mind it being there, so w/e

 

[Scar]

edit: btw, im not trying to degrade your opinion or start an argument or anything like that at all. (I'm just wondering what you think and why, and expressing my own opinion)

Yeah no I know, and I see what you're saying and the more I think about it, the more I see it being pretty stupid.

However it is not an easy thing to learn and it is definitely something that I have already accepted as being a part of Melee. If you are suggesting that the programmers should have done what they did with Brawl, I would be against that. I don't think any moves should have a stupidly long amount of landing lag. But it makes sense that they wanted Ganon's dair to have that sort of lag, and it also makes sense that we should be able to cancel or at least shorten it.

I just think that Melee's l-canceling system is a good compromise between Brawl and a Melee with auto-l-canceling.

 

[NJzFinest]

Scar, I think those who wouldn't mind the removal of L-Canceling are picturing moves canceling on their own (naturally ending just as fast as they would if they were L-Canceled), rather then what Brawl did.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Nah man, I'm not saying they should do like they did with brawl. Brawl sucks terribly lol, i think everyone can agree on that

In brawl, they focused so much on making it noob-friendly and technically easy to play that they nerfed the amount of (viable) options you have, making the game bad (from a competitive standpoint). They completely took away options that where to hard to perform in melee (technically), making the game shallow (imo)

Great examples of things like that are WD:ing and Dashdancing. Why did they take it out? Maybe because it was to hard for noobs to use properly. But this also limited the options you have in the game. I can't dash out of range of my opponent to avoid an attack and then come back and punish in brawl the way that I do in Melee. I have one less option for punishment, which is bad.

But if you would instead make L-canceling automatic (to make it easier for noobs), it really wouldn't change the options available. Therefore I wouldn't really mind. (and it's what it makes it so different from taking away something like dashdancing).
This isn't what they did in brawl btw, they just made arials lag unreasonably much forcing you to auto cancel. Which limits your options for when and where you're able to use an arial and still be safe

Not only is brawl lacking from a competitive standpoint, it's also incredibly boring. Personally I think the lack of technical challenge in the game makes the game less fun. If they wanted to make Brawl fun, why did they take away comboing? >.>

Thanks for making good contributions to this thread, and actually taking my point in consideration. I have massive respect for you Scar. BTW, your advice in the falcon boards has helped my Falcon game alot.

 

[jugfingers]

I don't understand how you can keep missing Pink Reaper's point after so many pages of discussion. Are you stupid or just stubborn?

kaiokanx20lols

There is no difficulty or skill in the technique,

That's still just difficulty for difficulties sake. There's no real reason for it >_>

kaiokanX20lols

Lol @ l-canceling perfectly. Either you l-cancel or you miss it. And it's always a 7 frame window (unless there is hitlag involved, then there's sometimes more, but I'm to lazy to explain how that works now).

ok let me try and say this a different way.

you l-cancel something in your 7 frame window, and then like 5 seconds later l-cancel something else in the 7 frame window, and then maybe 5 seconds later l-cancel something in a 7 frame window its not that hard.


now if your playing faster you l-cancel something in a 7frame window and then 7frames later you l-cancel something in a 7-frame window then 7 frames later l-cancel in in your 7frame window, THIS is more difficult to execute perfectly than the latter, if you don't think so your insane, doing something that requires timing will always be more difficult if your doing it faster and more times in a shorter period.

read what gustav wind and eggm said, your basically just saying you want playing fast to be easier, and we want it to remain more difficult. it has nothing to do with options

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

read what gustav wind and eggm said, your basically just saying you want playing fast to be easier, and we want it to remain more difficult. it has nothing to do with options

I don't "want" the game to be easier, I just wouldn't have cared if it wouldn't have been in the game (since it does not affect the options available). I never wanted to change it. Changing it hasn't even been discussed, noone's hacking melee so why it even be up for consideration? In fact, if someone would make a melee hack that made L-canceling automatic I wouldn't play it.

And what do you even mean with "it has nothing to do with options"? That's the only thing I've really been talking about in this thread. Me not caring if L-canceling had been automatic in melee has to do with options and nothing else. Do you think you know my reasoning behind my argument better then I do?

The question in the thread was: would you have really CARED if L-canceling was automatic? And my answer is NO, I really wouldn't (because it wouldn't affect the options available). THAT's what we're discussing.

 

[T-REX!]

I think the fact that you wouldn't have to do anything to get the effect is more annoying than anything.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I don't understand how you can keep missing Pink Reaper's point after so many pages of discussion. Are you stupid or just stubborn?

He's just stubborn. I guess that he thinks by quoting me out of context he's somehow wins the argument. Here let me try

I suck at this game because I am a scrub

The only difference here is, rather than failing at understanding your point while simultaneously using the same incorrect argument over and over in a condescending fashion in an attempt to disguise the fact that Im wrong like you've been doing I just used random words from your old posts to insult you because I don't need to argue with you anymore.

I guess its really my fault, i mean, this is the internet so assuming you'd be smart enough to comprehend what I was saying was giving you too much credit. Maybe I should have spelled everything out word by word, maybe then you wouldn't seem like such an idiot. I guess the failure is mine and I apologize for it, next time some random scrub comes in and starts pretending to know **** about ****, I'll make sure I slow things down, explain everything in detail and wont assume they know how to think. I somehow get this feeling that the only reason you're so adamant about this is because the only thing that separates you from some random scrub who can jump and use the C-Stick is that you actually can L-cancel and you don't want us taking away from your one single accomplishment in the game. But don't worry, no one is going to take away your only skill, no one is planning to hack the game, this is just a discussion.

Im done arguing with you just because you've failed to bring up your own points and just as I've accepted many of the points on the manual L-canceling side(Since you'll probably fail to understand how I'll spell it out for you: I talk to people like Scar, WoA and Skler on AIM alot, so discussion didn't necessarily only happen in this thread) they can understand my points as well.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Dude this guy obviously understand our points very well. He understands them so well that he knows my reasoning behind my arguments better then I do! He also understands that this discussion has nothing to do with options. This is a smart guy.

 

[jugfingers]

And what do you even mean with "it has nothing to do with options"? That's the only thing I've really been talking about in this thread. Me not caring if L-canceling had been automatic in melee has to do with options and nothing else. Do you think you know my reasoning behind my argument better then I do?

The question in the thread was: would you have really CARED if L-canceling was automatic? And my answer is NO, I really wouldn't (because it wouldn't affect the options available). THAT's what we're discussing.

your argument of options has nothing to do with this debate.....beeecccaaaaaauuusse

your right. there is no options added or taken away by making l-cancelling automatic in the sense that you always have to try to l-cancel to play this game competively.

your right, AND pink reaper is also right on this point, you always need to l-cancel all the time or attempt to l-cancel all the time.


no decisions are taken away by automating l-canceling

no options are taken away by automating l-canceling

THUS it has nothing to do with this debate,


the only matter of concern is the thing that IS being taken away by automating l-cancelling

which is the physical difficulty. which is the only thing being removed by automating l-cancelling. and is consequently is the factor in whether it should be automated or not

 

[KosukeKGA]

Oh boy, this thread is so damn hilarious. I was laughing every page since Th0rn's posts.

Th0rn, Banks, Skler, Wobbles, and Magus are too good. Runner up for Wind Owl's ravine post. lmfao

***
As for me, I would've cared if L-Canceling was taken out. I like it. So I'll keep it. And it will stay in the game forever. So there.

 

[jugfingers]

He's just stubborn. I guess that he thinks by quoting me out of context he's somehow wins the argument. Here let me try

I suck at this game because im a scrub

dayumm I knew I never should have said that.

The only difference here is, rather than failing at understanding your point while simultaneously using the same incorrect argument over and over .

my only argument has and will continue to be that manual l-cancelling is difficult and takes skill....

Im done arguing with you just because you've failed to bring up your own points and just as I've accepted many of the points on the manual L-canceling side

my only point has been that manual l-cancelling is difficult and takes skill.


yea your right its not my own point, let me see who beat me to that one

OH YEA pink reaper from page 14.

That's still just difficulty for difficulties sake. There's no real reason for it >_>

I hope this isn't quoting you too out of context as its your ENTIRE POST from page 14.

no johns.

 

[Scar]

But if you would instead make L-canceling automatic (to make it easier for noobs), it really wouldn't change the options available. Therefore I wouldn't really mind.

Yeah I agree with all that and I acknowledge that while removing l-canceling would make the game somewhat more n00b friendly, it would not take away from any significant amount of depth or really anything I love about Melee.

I just happen to think that the appropriate and realistic amount of time the characters should take to land an aerial move is exactly how long was programmed, and I am also thankful that they put in a command that can give the characters a speed boost.

So we agree on everything basically, just a small difference of opinions. Good talk.

 

[_Keno_]

Peach actually does have a single (unused) advanced teq that requires that you neither l-cancel nor float cancel. When peach fairs a shiek's shield, and the shiek tries to shield-grab, she will completely miss if peach doesnt do either. =D
Although this unused tech is vastly insuperior to float-canceled moves and like I've said, unused.

Also after reading wobbles post I still would prefer have to have non auto-l-canceled moves. But then again im sure it would attract brawlers to the melee scene, which would be very nice.

 

[BrawlLover]

I am tolly thankful that they put in a command that can give the characters a speed boost!

GREAT TALK! love yaaaa

 

[Huber]

Having played games like X men Vs Street Fighter online where people map controls to do usually complicated commands with a simple one button touch (Magneto air dash) and hating that, something like auto-l-canceled moves leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Solaris1110]

But removing L-canceling would give elitist jerks one less thing to show off! =(

Deep down we all know thats the real reason...

 

[Skler]

But removing L-canceling would give dumb scrubs one less thing to john about!

Deep down we all know that's the real reason...

 

[Binx]

But removing L-canceling would give dumb scrubs one less thing to john about!

Deep down we all know that's the real reason...

I'm gonna go ahead and agree with this, L canceling is not difficult if you actively play the game, if you want to play a game where you don't have to practice but still want to pretend it's competitive play brawl.

But I still support that I don't care either way because I can already L cancel so it doesn't effect me, I also am already beating noobs who do L cancel, timing and strategy is much more important, although all the foxs mindlessly trying to drill shine would get annoying (don't read difficult to deal with)

 

[Tomacawk]

Making R cancels automatic is a BIG deal. Nobody expects missed R cancels, true, but stop basing your argument off of that. People react fast enough to punish it. I don't expect fox players to forward air me. Does that mean when they do I don't punish it? **** no.
If you make R canceling automatic, it's just one less thing somebody has to practice to get good. Would you like it if basketballs came with magnets in the middle of them so if you hit the rim, it's pulled into the net?
Would you like footballs to have motors that make them automatically spiral?
Easing the learning curb makes it easier to be good, therefore decreasing skill/practice required to become "good."
Do you give a chef who microwaves a pizza the same respect as a chef who made the dough, shredded the cheese, mixed the sauce, crafted the pizza, and cooked it in an oven?
And even the best players can miss an R cancel. I have extremely high tech skill, I can do almost everything in melee. I might miss an R cancel if I'm link and dair somebody, and I expect it to hit their shield and bounce, but then they light shield and I hit R too quick. This does happen. Or sometimes you may legitimately miss it, but that is very unlikely.
The point is, weaken the learning curb, bring the bad players closer to the good players. That's not a good thing for a competitive game. If brawl players want that, do it. I don't play brawl. I like games that reward the better player.
So please, stop acting so cynical like you've "shown those melee players what's up."
You have a demeanor that insinuates you think you're superior to others. Drop that. Don't challenge people to disprove you. Encourage it.
What 4 competitive games are still around from a long time ago?
Starcraft, Counter-Strike, Melee, and Halo 1. Ever wonder why? They all have very high learning curves.
Have a great day, *******.

 

[N64]

I have a question. I vaguely remember something about tech timing. When you hit a surface (ground/wall/ceiling) you have a certain window in which to hit L or R and you will tech. Hitting L/R close enough before this window also prevents you from being able to tech (even if you hit L/R again during the window). Correct me if this is wrong.

So, this may very well be nitpicking, but I have a questions with this pertaining to l-cancelling. Is it conceivable that if you start an aerial, but soon notice the oponent will be able to intercept and hit you with his own attack, you could forfeit your opportunity to tech the hit (if it's available) in that instance?

I don't believe it's a strong enough argument for including lc-cancelling on its own (it's probably more related to the issues with having multiple uses for the same button), I just thought it was interesting enough to inquire about.

 

[Tomacawk]

I have a question. I vaguely remember something about tech timing. When you hit a surface (ground/wall/ceiling) you have a certain window in which to hit L or R and you will tech. Hitting L/R close enough before this window also prevents you from being able to tech (even if you hit L/R again during the window). Correct me if this is wrong.

So, this may very well be nitpicking, but I have a questions with this pertaining to l-cancelling. Is it conceivable that if you start an aerial, but soon notice the oponent will be able to intercept and hit you with his own attack, you could forfeit your opportunity to tech the hit (if it's available) in that instance?

I don't believe it's a strong enough argument for including lc-cancelling on its own (it's probably more related to the issues with having multiple uses for the same button), I just thought it was interesting enough to inquire about.

Do you mean trying to L cancel, but getting hit so you hitting L forfeits the tech ability for 60 frames? If that's what you mean then yes, you can't tech for a second.

 

[metaXzero]

Making R cancels automatic is a BIG deal. Nobody expects missed R cancels, true, but stop basing your argument off of that. People react fast enough to punish it. I don't expect fox players to forward air me. Does that mean when they do I don't punish it? **** no.
If you make R canceling automatic, it's just one less thing somebody has to practice to get good. Would you like it if basketballs came with magnets in the middle of them so if you hit the rim, it's pulled into the net?
Would you like footballs to have motors that make them automatically spiral?
Easing the learning curb makes it easier to be good, therefore decreasing skill/practice required to become "good."
Do you give a chef who microwaves a pizza the same respect as a chef who made the dough, shredded the cheese, mixed the sauce, crafted the pizza, and cooked it in an oven?
And even the best players can miss an R cancel. I have extremely high tech skill, I can do almost everything in melee. I might miss an R cancel if I'm link and dair somebody, and I expect it to hit their shield and bounce, but then they light shield and I hit R too quick. This does happen. Or sometimes you may legitimately miss it, but that is very unlikely.
The point is, weaken the learning curb, bring the bad players closer to the good players. That's not a good thing for a competitive game. If brawl players want that, do it. I don't play brawl. I like games that reward the better player.
So please, stop acting so cynical like you've "shown those melee players what's up."
You have a demeanor that insinuates you think you're superior to others. Drop that. Don't challenge people to disprove you. Encourage it.
What 4 competitive games are still around from a long time ago?
Starcraft, Counter-Strike, Melee, and Halo 1. Ever wonder why? They all have very high learning curves.
Have a great day, *******.

Brawl? Where does that keep coming from?

Spoiler

lol

Well I'm unchanged in opinion towards L-canceling as a manual mechanic (excluding Spacies). :/

 

[Tomacawk]

Brawl? Where does that keep coming from?

Spoiler

lol

Well I'm unchanged in opinion towards L-canceling as a manual mechanic (excluding Spacies). :/

"You've spoken the truth and I can't disprove/attack your argument, so I'm just gunna say that I'm unchanged and ignore it because I'm stubborn and I'm wrong."
I'm done posting here before I start flaming too hardcore.

 

[BrawlLover]

Making R cancels automatic is a BIG deal. Nobody expects missed R cancels, true, but stop basing your argument off of that. People react fast enough to punish it. I don't expect fox players to forward air me. Does that mean when they do I don't punish it? **** no.
If you make R canceling automatic, it's just one less thing somebody has to practice to get good. Would you like it if basketballs came with magnets in the middle of them so if you hit the rim, it's pulled into the net?
Would you like footballs to have motors that make them automatically spiral?
Easing the learning curb makes it easier to be good, therefore decreasing skill/practice required to become "good."
Do you give a chef who microwaves a pizza the same respect as a chef who made the dough, shredded the cheese, mixed the sauce, crafted the pizza, and cooked it in an oven?
And even the best players can miss an R cancel. I have extremely high tech skill, I can do almost everything in melee. I might miss an R cancel if I'm link and dair somebody, and I expect it to hit their shield and bounce, but then they light shield and I hit R too quick. This does happen. Or sometimes you may legitimately miss it, but that is very unlikely.
The point is, weaken the learning curb, bring the bad players closer to the good players. That's not a good thing for a competitive game. If brawl players want that, do it. I don't play brawl. I like games that reward the better player.
So please, stop acting so cynical like you've "shown those melee players what's up."
You have a demeanor that insinuates you think you're superior to others. Drop that. Don't challenge people to disprove you. Encourage it.
What 4 competitive games are still around from a long time ago?
Starcraft, Counter-Strike, Melee, and Halo 1. Ever wonder why? They all have very high learning curves.
Have a great day, *******.

oh man! im gonna quote you too! bra.

 

[metaXzero]

"You've spoken the truth and I can't disprove/attack your argument, so I'm just gunna say that I'm unchanged and ignore it because I'm stubborn and I'm wrong."
I'm done posting here before I start flaming too hardcore.

No, I'm just lazy and don't feel like arguing now. Though you are welcome to flame the coming wall....

Said it before. I'll say it again. L-canceling doesn't seperate good and bad players. It only seperates those accustomed from those who aren't. Unless it is Fox/Falco doing combos, most mid-to-high players get their L-cancels every meaningful time. Alot of Melee players prefer their manual L-cancel due to the feeling of increased control, love of pressing a button and calling it "tech skill", and (lower players) feeling of superiority over those who can't/are just learning to L-cancel. But this doesn't change the fact it doesn't add much manually once you are at mid-to-high play where everyone is getting their L-cancels (unless they are Spacies comboing). So I STILL see it as a mechanic that only serves to be a barrier for new players (but serves as a skill barrier for comboing with Fox and Falco).

What I've learned from observing over the weekend....

 

[BrawlLover]

No, I'm just lazy and don't feel like arguing now. Though you are welcome to flame the coming wall....

Said it before. I'll say it again. L-canceling doesn't seperate good and bad players. It only seperates those accustomed from those who aren't. Unless it is Fox/Falco doing combos, most mid-to-high players get their L-cancels every meaningful time. Alot of Melee players prefer their manual L-cancel due to the feeling of increased control, love of pressing a button and calling it "tech skill", and (lower players) feeling of superiority over those who can't/are just learning to L-cancel. But this doesn't change the fact it doesn't add much manually once you are at mid-to-high play where everyone is getting their L-cancels (unless they are Spacies comboing). So I STILL see it as a mechanic that only serves to be a barrier for new players (but serves as a skill barrier for comboing with Fox and Falco).

What I've learned from observing over the weekend....

you can flame but like, all you have to do is akss, 'how was your thanksgiving bra!?' then it's all good

 

[metaXzero]

you can flame but like, all you have to do is akss, 'how was your thanksgiving bra!?' then it's all good

> I got dragged to Georgia and watched MY turkey get eaten by my grannys dog...

 

[BrawlLover]

WHAT? you have to be joshing me...

 

[metaXzero]

No.....My cousin let the dog in while I was on the john. I look out the window of it and see my T-leg being torn to shreds...

Dogs are gay...

 

[BrawlLover]

yo that's mad wack X! like for real, i don't let no dogs getting near my thanksgiving nuh uh man, no way can do

 

[JFox]

I agree with wobbles. He's a really smart dude.

If people relied less on others technical mistakes, they would be better off. People should be trying to figure ways to work around shield pressure, not how to get their opponents to mess up.

Skler- every falco and his mom can pillar up and down on you without messing up at all, and you still find ways to win. I don't buy that auto l cancels would really change your game much.

 

[DrewB008]

i said what n64 said on the first page and nobody paid attention, just like nobody is paying attention to n64 now

i also said that if you try to l cancel when your aerial is gonna slip off an edge, youll airdodge like an idiot

2 situations when you shouldnt l cancel

 

[Magus420]

You shouldn't be pressing the button in all the way to l-cancel anyway.

 

[Mew2King]

i wouldn't care

 

[JesiahTEG]

i wouldn't care

oovideogamegodoo (2:47:04 AM): I'd cry myself to sleep if L cancelling was automatic

 

[Mew2King]

you can't just type in random ****

 

[Pink Reaper]

Lol, I can't imagine M2K caring about this, he'd still go on winning just as much as he already does.