Grunt
Smash Master
Landing normally:
Risk: none
Reward: none
Lcancel:
Reward: 1/2 lag
Risk: ????????
Risk: none
Reward: none
Lcancel:
Reward: 1/2 lag
Risk: ????????
-
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Melee community: would you have REALLY cared if L-canceling was automatic?
- Thread starter metaXzero
- Start date
- Status
jugfingers
Smash Champion
I don't believe you if your arguing for auto-l cancelling
unless you can't l-cancel
then I believe you.
EDIT
to magus and grunt.
why should it matter if there is no risk, if theres a reward shouldn't it take skill to do.
why reward someone for nothing.
and don't bring up everyone can do it once you learn to l-cancel so it changes nothing argument without watching the video I posted please.
Magus420
Smash Master
OK, I'll break it down for you. I'm seriously amazed at how you can somehow think these qualities don't describe l-canceling at all...
CHECK
CHECK
CHECK
Attempting the l-cancel costs nothing to use and has no added risk in attempting it compared to not using it, and if successful you get half lag which is obviously better than not l-canceling.
CHECK
Missing an l-cancel results in the same exact thing as not attempting the technique at all.
CHECK
Where applicable, attempting the l-cancel is always the best choice over not performing it, even if you were to mess it up every time since mistiming an l-cancel and not using it result in the same exact outcome.
CHECK
Darth Waffles
Smash Lord
This isn't just landing normally we're talking about; it's landing after an aerial. If you're not doing an aerial, you don't need to L-cancel in the first place...
Landing naturally while still in the animation of an aerial:
Risk: Not getting 1/2ed lag, gives opponents time to escape/punish you
Reward: None...you're suffering from the full lag
L-cancelling the aerial
Reward: 1/2 lag
Risk: MISSING THE L-CANCEL.
If you're about to tell me how people don't miss l-cancels, or how it doesn't cost them anything like a stock, or how it shouldn't be the only thing separating the best from the worst, please read the first 300 posts or so.
Landing naturally while still in the animation of an aerial:
Risk: Not getting 1/2ed lag, gives opponents time to escape/punish you
Reward: None...you're suffering from the full lag
L-cancelling the aerial
Reward: 1/2 lag
Risk: MISSING THE L-CANCEL.
If you're about to tell me how people don't miss l-cancels, or how it doesn't cost them anything like a stock, or how it shouldn't be the only thing separating the best from the worst, please read the first 300 posts or so.
Banks
Smash Hero
hey this is cool guys, keep arguing. no really, we'll solve a lot when this gets resolved!
heheheheheheheee heee heee hee hee hee harharhahaha
heheheheheheheee heee heee hee hee hee harharhahaha
Grunt
Smash Master
I can L cancel and I do play Fox.
I'm not arguing for auto L cancel.
If I had my say there would be some actual risk involved in missing an L cancel as opposed to not trying at all.
I'm not arguing for auto L cancel.
If I had my say there would be some actual risk involved in missing an L cancel as opposed to not trying at all.
which is the same as...Darth Waffles said:
Darth Waffles
Smash Lord
And again...OK, I'll break it down for you. I'm seriously amazed at how you can somehow think these qualities don't describe l-canceling at all...
Attempting the l-cancel costs nothing to use and has no added risk in attempting it compared to not using it, and if successful you get half lag which is obviously better than not l-canceling.
CHECK
Missing an l-cancel results in the same exact thing as not attempting the technique at all.
CHECK
Where applicable, attempting the l-cancel is always the best choice over not performing it, even if you were to mess it up every time since mistiming an l-cancel and not using it result in the same exact outcome.
CHECK
1. It doesn't cost "nothing" to use, you have to press a button. It's manual. There's risk, as I've now pointed out numerous time, and that is not performing it correctly, resulting in twice as much lag as you'ld like. The "No added risk" part leads straight into #2
2. Missing a manual l-cancel does result in the same exact thing as not attempting the technique at all, BUT that "same exact thing" is the worse outcome compared to performing it successfully. Whether you miss it or you don't perform it, you're going to suffer from twice as much lag as in the optimal situation.
3. Yes, attempting it is always the better choice over not attempting it, but this is because you now have the reward aspect of halving lag, which you would NOT have if you DIDN'T l-cancel. It has nothing to do with getting the same result as if you mistime it. As I said with #2, you don't.
@Grunt,
"missing the L cancel is the same as..."
You want me to say that it's the same as not doing it at all? Wonderful, I agree. But, whether you mistime it or you don't do it at all BOTH put you into a situation where you're at a disadvantage compared to where you would be if you HAD timed it correctly.
Magus420
Smash Master
>_>
qft
I'm done here, lmao.
jugfingers
Smash Champion
well I was listing the characters that were arguing FOR auto l-canceling
Grunt
Smash Master
Pressing a button isn't a risk.
@Jugfingers
why would the character choices make a difference?
@Jugfingers
why would the character choices make a difference?
Darth Waffles
Smash Lord
You haven't gotten my point, then, which is that the risk of pressing or not pressing a button is getting the full lag in either case, whereas pressing it at least gives you the chance for the reward of 1/2 lag. Do you see where we've gone after all of this time? I started by refuting Wobbles' post, which talked about how it should be automatic because you always want to L-cancel. Now we're...?
As far as I'm concerned, there's little point in me reiterating myself anymore either.
Good arguments Magus
jugfingers
Smash Champion
......
because fox/falco would be broken if l-cancelling was automatic.
because fox/falco would be broken if l-cancelling was automatic.
Missing an L-cancel is only a risk if...You always try to L-cancel!
But wait, why would you try to L-cancel?
Oh yeah, it's better than not L-cancelling in every situation.
So If you always try the L-cancel, what's the point of having a non-L-cancel landing?
To make you miss every so often?
Just so you can hit an extra button?
I guess. Makes perfect sense.
>.>
Also technicality != the only skill in the game.
L-cancelling does not require "skill" it requires tech skill.
If I can read my opponent really well, but he can press a button a little bit better, is he more skilled?
Darth Waffles
Smash Lord
There it is, the sad point that undeniably and invariably tells us that we have finally come full cirlce.
Yes. You want to L-cancel in every situation. Now start reading the entire thread again, because that was (at least part of) Metaxzero/Wobbles/others' arguments
I'm not going through this all again, so just start reading Banks/Skler/others comments about this. Make sure you don't skip Wobbles' posts, because I was told to refute them, which I did. We all brought up, at different times, that you WANT to L-cancel, but not everybody does 100% of the time, and that they should be punished for whenever they don't, even if they rarely miss them.
Start reading, because I'm done here.
jugfingers
Smash Champion
tech skill is a skill, as you so aptly implied by referring to it as tech skill.
yes he's more skilled at pressing a button. and pressing buttons is quite integral to this game.
see this video that ive posted three times now
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig2kVduNIAM
1:16-1:21 specifically 1:18-1:19
is dashizwiz more skilled because he can press buttons really fast?
well he is more skilled at pressing buttons fast.
in case you aren't aware melee is a fighting game, in a battle speed and timing are a necessary attribute, because there no wrong time to move quickly in a fight isn't a very good reason to make moving quickly automatic.
if your concerned at all with this game having a physical aspect.
Nwordtim
Smash Journeyman
Lol why not have L canceling at all there we go no risk no reward sounds like a plan lol. Seriously nothing wrong with pressing a button granted a little useless but, I don't know it kind of pointless to argue it since most of us who played melee are probably use to l canceling. To me L canceling is second nature so for it to be auto canceled in melee is pointless, but brawl+ however auto L-cancel would that even be a cancel anymore. If your going to do that just reduce everyone landing lag unto half there we go or better yet screw it and not even add a cancel system.
datman6699
Smash Journeyman
it's like a manual transmission vs. an automatic, manual being manual l-cancelling -- you just have more control over your actions.
enough said.
Total control.
enough said.
Total control.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
Lmao this made me laugh so hard
Magus wins <3
I'm sort of wondering if Darth is so stupid he doesn't understand what Magus is saying or if he just doesn't WANT TO understand
I main fox
I still think L-canceling is an unnecessary chore that adds nothing to the gameplay.
All you people have been saying is that it's hard and takes skill bla bla, which I haven't denied. Which is why I haven't responded to posts which have only talked about how hard and "skill-based" you think it is.
I'm just saying that it doesn't increase the amount of options you have, and therefore not the depth of the game.
EDIT: BTW, I am pretty **** technical, especially considering that I haven't played the game competitively for as long as most of you have. I do think the technical parts of melee IS fun (otherwise I wouldn't have wasted my time learning things like SHDL's), and they'd still be there AND fun if there wasn't any L-cancelling. Seriously, go to training mode and start drillshining a Ness (make sure it registers as a combo) and tell me with a straight face that that wouldn't be hard without L-canceling =/. (L-canceling is probably the easiest thing you have to deal with when drillshining, lol)
Enough with that vid seriously. For ****s sake only two moves in that combo actually needed to be L-canceled anyways(the final Bair could have been Auto Canceled)
And lol about "Where are all the Fox/Falco Mains." I can promise you that outside of maybe Shiz and SWolf not many Spacie mains are actually more technical than Magus. So ****ing what if he uses Ganon I promise you he's more technical than you are(and for that matter, I'M probably more technical than you are)
Also, speed really is only extremely important with the Spacies themselves, everyone else is all about Spacing. I don't have to move quickly if you can't hit me do I? As long as I space/predict better I don't need speed. It's people like you who give Melee players bad reps by making everyone believe all we care about is things being really fast and really technical.
Edit: And while Im at it, don't ever assume that because I main Kirby Im not technical. Do you have any idea how perfect I have to play just to not get *****? Im not ALLOWED to miss L-Cancels or screw up wavedashes, I'll get taken from zero to death if I do because my character is really that bad. To quote Gimpy talking about playing bottom tier "You have to play absolutely perfectly or else your character really is garbage tier, and even when you do they still suck"
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
I'm not going to stay here long, because this thread is pretty stupid, but let me try to break it down for you in real life terms.
There is a ravine under which lies certain death. Across this ravine there lies a sack of priceless jewels (and a switch that activates a drawbridge so you can get back safely). There are three possible outcomes in this scenario.
a) You jump across and acquire the jewels. (+1)
b) You walk away neither risking your life nor having a chance at the jewels. (+0)
c) You jump across but fail, plummeting to your death. (-1)
Let's compare this to L-canceling:
a) You choose to L-cancel and succeed. You receive half landing lag. (+1)
b) You do not attempt to L-cancel. You recieve full landing lag. (+0)
c) You attempt to L-cancel but fail. You recieve full landing lag. (+0)
... This is what Magus was trying to explain. Is it really so hard to understand?
There is a ravine under which lies certain death. Across this ravine there lies a sack of priceless jewels (and a switch that activates a drawbridge so you can get back safely). There are three possible outcomes in this scenario.
a) You jump across and acquire the jewels. (+1)
b) You walk away neither risking your life nor having a chance at the jewels. (+0)
c) You jump across but fail, plummeting to your death. (-1)
Let's compare this to L-canceling:
a) You choose to L-cancel and succeed. You receive half landing lag. (+1)
b) You do not attempt to L-cancel. You recieve full landing lag. (+0)
c) You attempt to L-cancel but fail. You recieve full landing lag. (+0)
... This is what Magus was trying to explain. Is it really so hard to understand?
Zjiin
Smash Master
lawl, I approve.
Eggm
Smash Hero
I think the pressure of having to L-cancel is a cool part of the game and does add depth in a few ways. I miss more l-cancels vs m2k than say scar. I know m2k is probably the single best smasher at punishment per mistake. He does the most devastating things per one mistake than pretty much any other player. This makes him dangerous and makes you feel more pressured and you miss L-cancels more often than say you normally would. This would take m2k's depth away as a player. His ability to stay calm in all different types of situations and still pull off awesome combos is a skill and that skill puts pressure on you. Its kinda like spirit pressure in bleach. Spirit pressure really does exist in smash. This is part of the reason why, you take l-canceling out you take out part of that.
A much more specific example. I lost quite a few of my falco ditto friendlies with shiz at FAST by 1 stock. Shiz was much better than me at making me miss l-cancels with super well timed spot dodges, which I was catching on to and doing myself for my own combos, but then he took it one step further and started predicting my sidestep to shines and did his down air's without fast falling to delay and hit me then start his own combo. That was clever and won him a few of the matches and taught me another thing to do in falco dittos. Theres probably more examples, but this depth alone isn't worth taking it away just to make it easier for newbs. But yeah, he should have won those close ones for coming up with that and pulling off his combo first. Falco dittos really come down to who can pull off their combos first. Cause combos in that matchup are devastating at low %'s. Also afterwards you have the advantage of CCing and they no longer do cause of their high % from the combo. Also players who are better at comboing than others have less of an advantage now cause there are less chances to make mistakes overall.
Not to mention it would help out ic's a lot cause theres are many times you choose to desync nana to do ariels that she would now auto l-cancel and come back into play faster with this new system.
It also takes away an advantage of IC"s with their two shields making your l-cancel timing wierd and netting them less grabs. Same thing with light shielding as a tall character vs multi hit down airs messing up their timing. Like foxes or yoshi's dair. In fact you could go as far as putting up your normal shield then toggling it to light shield at the last moment to mess them up if you were so inclined. While small, and not useful its options that would be gone.
Theres plenty of other things that are always good to do and are just a "chore" but were not taking them away right? When you know a finisher is coming you ALWAYS want to have perfect survival DI. Lets make that automatic. If your not DIng away from your opponent lets make it do auto perfect survival DI, that way you can hold away to get outta combos but then not have to do that nasty chore of holding the right survival DI when they go for their finisher because its always better to have perfect DI when you get hit hard.
So to answer the thread title Yes, we would have cared. Unless your would like a melee with slightly less depth and techincal requirements.
Edit : I thought of another thing that is always better to do than not. When I go to fire stall with fox/falco its only 100% invincible if its frame perfect. I would enjoy having perfect fire stalls every time i go to fire stall because sometimes I get hit and its a chore to have such good timing. And its 100% always better to be 100% invincible than not while stalling.
Oh yah, I just also realized that certain stages have certain things that mess up l-cancel timing and you could be better at knowing that and exploiting that than your opponent thus it would remove stage knowledge advantage too.
A much more specific example. I lost quite a few of my falco ditto friendlies with shiz at FAST by 1 stock. Shiz was much better than me at making me miss l-cancels with super well timed spot dodges, which I was catching on to and doing myself for my own combos, but then he took it one step further and started predicting my sidestep to shines and did his down air's without fast falling to delay and hit me then start his own combo. That was clever and won him a few of the matches and taught me another thing to do in falco dittos. Theres probably more examples, but this depth alone isn't worth taking it away just to make it easier for newbs. But yeah, he should have won those close ones for coming up with that and pulling off his combo first. Falco dittos really come down to who can pull off their combos first. Cause combos in that matchup are devastating at low %'s. Also afterwards you have the advantage of CCing and they no longer do cause of their high % from the combo. Also players who are better at comboing than others have less of an advantage now cause there are less chances to make mistakes overall.
Not to mention it would help out ic's a lot cause theres are many times you choose to desync nana to do ariels that she would now auto l-cancel and come back into play faster with this new system.
It also takes away an advantage of IC"s with their two shields making your l-cancel timing wierd and netting them less grabs. Same thing with light shielding as a tall character vs multi hit down airs messing up their timing. Like foxes or yoshi's dair. In fact you could go as far as putting up your normal shield then toggling it to light shield at the last moment to mess them up if you were so inclined. While small, and not useful its options that would be gone.
Theres plenty of other things that are always good to do and are just a "chore" but were not taking them away right? When you know a finisher is coming you ALWAYS want to have perfect survival DI. Lets make that automatic. If your not DIng away from your opponent lets make it do auto perfect survival DI, that way you can hold away to get outta combos but then not have to do that nasty chore of holding the right survival DI when they go for their finisher because its always better to have perfect DI when you get hit hard.
So to answer the thread title Yes, we would have cared. Unless your would like a melee with slightly less depth and techincal requirements.
Edit : I thought of another thing that is always better to do than not. When I go to fire stall with fox/falco its only 100% invincible if its frame perfect. I would enjoy having perfect fire stalls every time i go to fire stall because sometimes I get hit and its a chore to have such good timing. And its 100% always better to be 100% invincible than not while stalling.
Oh yah, I just also realized that certain stages have certain things that mess up l-cancel timing and you could be better at knowing that and exploiting that than your opponent thus it would remove stage knowledge advantage too.
Scar
#HarveyDent
I think full control over one's character is something you have to work for, you call it a "needless hoop" and everyone else calls it "learning to l-cancel."
In RPGs levelling up is a pain in the *** and it's going to take you 5 hours straight of farming to reach the level you want to reach, but then again you have that cheat code you can put in and skip right to the level and save yourself 5 hours of a truly worthless activity. But most gamers will just sit there for 5 hours and level up.
This is a poor analogy trying to explain why I think that saying "l-canceling should be automatic" is akin to being someone who uses cheat codes to level up.
Some more thoughts:
- l-canceling is a commitment test, a preview of things to come... once you've learned how to shffl, Melee does not get any easier. If you can't learn how to shffl, you won't be able to compete at high level ever.
- it rewards players simply for playing the game, since the advantage goes to the better l-canceler (all other things equal)
- it forces players to constantly think about something technical during combat. Consider normal shffls, the l-cancel is automatic, but when attempting a combo incorporating platforms and platform cancels, the l-cancel is reflex, something you can definitely screw up.
I appreciate that random scrubs can't pick up a controller, jump and press the c stick a bunch of times and then immediately dash out of 1/2 landing lags.
Doggalina
Smash Lord
Actually, when you don't go for the L-Cancel, you do so with knowledge beforehand that you'll have larger landing lag. If you go in to L-Cancel and miss it, you went in assuming you'd get 50% when you get full landing lag. There are some things I'd do with half the landing lag that I'd NEVER do with full landing lag.
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
Wow, can you imagine? That game would suck.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
Stop with slippery slope stuff people. Magus debunked that crap a long time ago. (This post)
Other then that I'm happy to finally see some more intelligent posts in this thread (eggm & scar)
Other then that I'm happy to finally see some more intelligent posts in this thread (eggm & scar)
I don't understand this part of the argument. If they're some random scrub you're still much better then them, so why does it matter?
jugfingers
Smash Champion
um yea those two moves that actually needed to be l-canceled were The only two moves that I was referencing. thats why I said specifically (1:18-1:19), good work pointing out the final bair being auto canceled as it had nothing to do with my argument, and merely trivializing the fact that there were only two dairs. your a genius.
ohhh two dairs, there were only two of them, i'll just avoid recognizing how ****ing fast they were and how much technical ability it takes to pull off that two hit combo and talk about some other part of the combo that had nothing to do with the debate at hand. really, great work. you win a medal or something.
And yea I know who magus is and how much more technical than me he is, hes ****ing magus. I've been getting hardons off his vids for years(I've different acounts since 2005). but if you play an amazing technial ganon you still can't win matches based off that technical ability, you certainly need it to implement proper spacing and punishments but you can't win purely because of it.
the point that I was making about space animals which I thought was obvious, is exactly what you just wrote about. which I will summarize in a sentence.
"space animals rely more on speed, basically every other character relies more on spacing and predictions.
which basically means that spaceanimals can gain massive advantages based largely on technical abilities. yea it is alot harder to play low tier chars from a technical standpoint, because you have to play perfect, but playing a technically perfect kirby isn't going to win you a match, which is exactly what gimpy was implying in that quote. playing a perfectly technical kirby or other low tier is only going to prevent you from losing the match, but won't give you even that much of an advantage.
im not saying that space animals don't need spacing or predictions, all Im saying is that
space animals can destroy technically inferior opponents by simply outpacing them, period.
which is why I posted that video so many times that everyone ignored as many times.
that whole match is basically dashizwiz supremely outpacing dark falchion .
not everyone can do that double dair drop combo. which again is the only part of the combo I was pointing out. and l-canceling that double dair drop as FAST as that, is above the skill level of most pros. consequently auto l-cancelling would close the gap between pros and elite pros, which is not beneficial to a competetive game.
PS
this thread is awesome.
EDIT
I never even implied that you or magus or icicleclimber head was not technical, which has nothing to do with this argument, I was merely stating that you cannot destroy your opponent simply by outpacing them with technical ability with those three characters. kirby, ganon, and iciclemountain face.
Im very aware that wobbles and magus are more tech than i am, i've never used my technical ability as authority for any point in this discussion.
Magus420
Smash Master
I actually play like half of the cast rather well, just most of my videos happen to be of my Ganon. My Falcon definitely destroys people with speed and technical ability =D
Wow. Not to disrespect Shiz since he's amazing but you are ****ing ******** if you think a Dair->Dair is a difficult combo. It's not an overly technical combo its just Dair, Fast Fall, Dair. In terms of difficulty it was probably harder just setting up the combo in an area where the combo is possible than doing the actual two hits. And lol at you getting all butthurt about me "Talking about something else" you ****ing idiot that's basically what your doing every time you post that vid. That vid has nothing to do with the argument at hand, it shows that Spacies are technical, something we pretty much all know. In terms of L-Canceling there was actually only ONE necessary L-Cancel(When Shiz landed on the platform) as the second Dair had enough stun that he wouldn't have technically needed it and the Bair could have been auto canceled.
And you get mad at me for going off tangent >_> "Space animals are technical" has nothing to do with the argument at hand, which is "L-Canceling is essentially a meaningless technique y/n?" Im fully aware what Gimpy was talking about I was having the conversation with him.
No, no, no, no and no. Everyone can do a double Dair Drop, it really isn't that hard(in terms of difficulty its way below something like a Shine Bair) My friend $heen, he's good with falco. Good, not amazing, good. He can do double Dair combos. You know why? Cus it's really not that hard. The thing that makes Shiz an amazing player is the fact that he combines his amazing tech skill with smart, innovative play while using great prediction and strong use of fundamentals. L-Canceling has nothing to do with it and its this line
that strikes as absolutely wrong the most. A pro level player is not going to miss an L-Cancel unless it's forced, in which case I have to state once again that is has less to do with the Player attempting to L-Cancel and more to do with his opponent forcing a mistake on him.
Also, think about this. Because you have to L-Cancel 100% of the time it's no longer beneficial, its the norm, the standard. So at this point L-Canceling is no longer something that is helpful it is something that can only be detrimental, i.e, you no longer get a reward for doing it you only get punished for not doing it. In all honesty that is bad game design. There shouldn't be anything in the game you HAVE to do that doesn't help you.
Ice Climbers are ******** technical. Easily more technical than every character except the Spacies themselves(and even then I'd say the IC's are more technically demanding as you don't need to do most of the ******** difficult tech stuff with Fox/Falco)
Banks
Smash Hero
lol scar & eggm cavalry, GOOD ****
Scar
#HarveyDent
Well I suppose I should just be honest with you/myself, because I could certainly bull**** my way out of this, but it's just a part of the elitist Melee mentality. I worked hard to be able to do everything that I can, and I appreciate that when I see someone else do something crazy, I know that it wasn't a fluke.
When I do something crazy and awesome and put it in I Killed Mufasa 2, it is a culmination of months and months of time wasted playing and becoming familiar with Melee, and I would be pissed if other people could do the same without really investing time, unless they were just more talented.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
Scar has a pretty sig
L-cancel isn't needed let's play Brawl :D
Scar has a pretty sig
L-cancel isn't needed let's play Brawl :D
I can L-Cancel, but you don't see me doing the **** you can do do you? The fact of the matter is L-Canceling is not hard and its not something that makes you a melee elite. The hours you spend playing and perfecting combos, learning strategies and making yourself better at the game is what makes you an elite.
jugfingers
Smash Champion
yea I've mostly just seen your ganon and jiggs, but yea cfaclon can def **** with raw speed and tech ability. ....which you've got to admit is physically satisfying.. no?
well actually hes dashing off the platform and then fastfalling not just dair fastfall dair, but it was kind of quick so I guess I can understand if you didn't catch that.
also he did need to l-cancel the second dair because a split second later he wavedashes backwards to techchase which wouldn't have been possible if he missed that l-cancel.
um I was refuting your rebuttal of the comment I made concerning the lack of space animals arguing for auto l-canceling, and the last post I made was trying to clarify why I think that a technical space animal main would be more upset about l-canceling being automated, it did have to do with the main argument in that auto l-canceling would make the space animals a lot more broken than they already are, it was also the specific refutation of an argument that you were making against my space animal comment.....
it was my reply to your post, seriously wtf please follow this more closely if your going to keep posting.
I also never said " space animals are technical", I was merely saying that if you don't have good technical ability you will have alot more trouble vs a technically adept space animal than against a technically adept lower tier char,
lol at shine bair being more difficult than a dair->dair. dude I guess you don't play falco because shine bairs are really easy, after pressing down B you can just spam up on the control stick at the same time you hit over on the c-stick, they don't take any special timing and you don't even have to move your fingers that quickly unless your shinebairing someone at 400% at least with the dair->dair you have to time something properly. there slightly more difficult with fox but its more about placing the shine at the right part of there body than moving your fingers quickly.
and I was never trying to imply that dair->dair combos are really difficult, I was trying to indicate you the speed at which it was performed
it is a specific combo where l-canceling is a difficult issue especially if your midjumping out of a shine and are an unusual distance from the ground or platform making your timing different than normal shffld aerials.
and yes I can do consistent dair->fastfalled dairs with falco, but they do take timing and practice to get them off quickly. and I sure as hell can't do them as fast as dashizwiz and I really think your making an perceptual error in thinking that everyone can do them that fast, either you haven't played any good falcos or you only play with really good falcos. lol
man seriously I'm blown away that you think everyone can dair->dair as fast as dashizwiz, the speed is what I was trying to indicate with that video but watching a video and playing with someone is vastly different.
this reminds me of someone commenting on the forward vs isai crew battle where someone said "its lame that falco can just laser, do a generic pillar combo and win vs cpt falcon"
its insane to think that any falco that can laser and pillar combo could beat isai.
to which forward replied something like "lol at you guys thinking you can laser like me"
which is basically what your saying about dashizwizs dair->dair combos so let me just take a moment to say this
lol at you thinking your friend can dair->dair combo as fast as shiz.
Dashizwiz missed several l-cancels in that match I posted and he also messed up an unforced dair to fastfall dair in the first 18 seconds, which you claim is infallibly easy. the fact that you have missed for some reason is that when you play faster, playing perfectly becomes more difficult. you need to retain complete concentration and will to not make any mistakes in high level matches.
this is the most bizarre misshapen logic I have ever come across, let me dissect this for more clear refutation.
first of all you don't have to l-cancel 100% of the time, you WANT to l-cancel 100% of the time. although l-canceling 100% of time is preferable its not mandatory for winning as shown in the match I posted where dashizwiz missed many more l-cancels than dark falchion but still managed to easily two stock him.
and just because you want to perform something all the time doesn't remove its beneficial nature, you always want to l-cancel BECAUSE its implicitly beneficial to always move quickly. so what your saying is a straight up contradiction.
l-canceling is still helpful at this point, it is still helping you move more quickly.
and your still getting rewarded for doing it, the reward is still your ability to move quickly and combo more effectively.
or you can think of the reward as not being punished, as you state will happen if you don't L-cancel.
punishment of another players mistakes is essential to any game.
an effective strategy going into a match is never hoping your opponent
is going to make a lot of mistakes, but an effective strategy is punishing all mistakes that are made.
if no player makes a mistake in chess, theoretically it should always end in a draw. (Or white should always win according to bobby fischer) either way mistakes have to punished in order to win and mistakes must be invoked as well
simply playing faster than your opponent in smash can draw him into a quicker game than he may be used to causing him to miss more l-cancels. which can then be punished.
again, you always WANT to do it because it does help you, it makes you move faster.
this argument is only valid if everyone was a robot and can l-cancel 100% of the time in every situation no matter what pressure or speed is involved. this is not the case, even m2k will make mistakes and miss l-cancels if hes put under enough pressure and he is actually a robot , everyone does not have the ability to l-cancel 100% of the time, and if they do want that ability they should have to practice and train for it. not just have it handed to them to give them an advantage against robots like jason.
I don't main the ice climbers but from what I understand alot of there technical nature isn't at all do with l-canceling, its more based off desynching and controlling nana, chaingrabs etc. i mean ive played them a bit and can do like dthrow dair chain grabs and stuff but I don't think there is anything unique to do with them that involves a complete mastery of l-canceling other than just regualr shffld aerials,
No, I did catch it, it just didn't seem important enough to mention. Dair->Platform Dash Dair is actually easier than Dair->Platform Fall Dair anyways but thats beyond the point.
No he didn't because he technically missed the tech chase he was going for. The Bair only hit because of a mistake on Dark Falcion's side jumping out of shield to early. He could have not L-Canceled and just did a dash->shine->bair with the same results, of course Shiz couldn't actually know this when playing because he's not psychic, im just pointing it out.
The space animal argument is flawed. Only Fox would be "Broken" with auto-L and it's still unlikely that anyone ever would be able to perfectly pillar a shield simply because it requires frame perfect Shine->SH Dairs, and alot of them. The chances for a mistake being made from missing a Short Hop or not Dairing on the first frame possible is much higher than someone missing an L-Cancel >_> while doing it.
Why the hell would you assume I meant Falco? Seriously? No one counts Falco's shine Bair. No one. My buddy $heen even made a joke a few days ago when I shine Bair'd him as falco saying "That doesn't count as a real Shine Bair cus your no Fox"
And I'd still go so far as to say Shine Bair with FALCO is harder than Dair->Dair with Falco.
What are your fast falls with Falco somehow slower than when Shiz fast falls with him? The Dair->Dair is only impressive because of Shiz's ability to set up for it in the middle of a high skill match. There is not a huge amount of skill involved in the actual Dair-Dair because it's really not that hard.
Lol at you thinking Shiz is a god. Shiz is an amazing player, probably the best falco in the world(My opinion, I know there are some who think otherwise) but once again Im going to state that you are a ******. Shiz did not somehow break the game engine and Dair->Dair faster than humanly possible. He did it just the same as many other falco players can do it. His ability to do a basic combo is not what makes him an amazing player. If you're going to dickride than at least dickride properly and give him some real credit for his real skill, like his amazing shield pressuring skills and his retardedly perfect lasering skills.
That looked more like prediction to me. At that percent Marth would have broken out of the hitstun before the second Dair would have been possible so Shiz was probably hoping Falcion would DI onto the platform so he could Dsmash him. Falcion just DI'd differently and Shiz missed. These things happen.
You don't seem to understand what Im saying(And you also seem to have some sort of obsession with Shiz for some reason but lets ignore that) You can't NOT L-Cancel. You just can't. You cannot play smash and expect to win without L-Canceling. If you try and argue this point, I will put you on my ignore list because I don't want to catch whatever ****** virus you might have that would make you think you can play high level smash without L-Canceling. I didn't mean you have to hit your L-Cancels 100% of the time I just meant you have to DO IT 100% of the time. You also don't seem to understand what I mean by "L-Canceling has become the standard." Because there is no way to compete without L-Canceling it is no longer a choice, it is something you have to do. The benefit of half lag doesn't matter anymore if that's what everyone is playing at already. If I went to a tournament and everyone WASN'T L-Canceling, THEN there would be a benefit to it, but those kinds of tournaments don't exist(At least hope they don't)
This isn't a reward. This is what you HAVE to do. You don't get a choice. You don't get the choice to not move quickly because it's impossible to win that way.
I'm going to ignore all of this because it's mostly meaningless restatements of things you apparently don't seem to realize I've addressed, but one line stands out to me.
You apparently understand that L-Canceling is something you always have to do, what you don't seem to understand is that L-Canceling really isn't that huge of a factor in melee(see the quote below) It's not some amazingly difficult tech that separates M2K from randomscrub233 or even you from MetaXZero. There is no difficulty or skill in the technique, there is no options, there is nothing but the chance for your opponent to make you screw up. Of course no one can L-Cancel 100% of the time, but then no one can Wavedash 100% of the time either, nor can anyone pivot 100% of the time, nor can anyone JC grab 100% of the time. The only difference is that with all those other techs is that even if you can do them it doesn't mean you have to. There are times when you should dash grab instead of JC Grab(lolbowser) times when you should roll instead of wavedash, times you should......wait, I can't think of anything for pivoting.
Since when does L-Canceling have anything to do with Tech Skill. L-Canceling != Skill
Scar
#HarveyDent
Yeah.. but very few people never miss L-Cancels and honestly it's not that easy to never bring up your shield afterwards and it's still hard for me to l-cancel some dj dairs. Also ledgehopped aerials.
The point is that there are few people who are perfect with them to the point where they might as well be automatic, so taking that out of the game is fine but it's a speed boost. It shouldn't be the default speed, which is why it isn't the default speed.
And as I was typing this I realize that once you get that comfortable with the game then it makes perfect sense, if you did something that was so awkward for you that you missed such a simple thing it makes sense for the character to slip up on his landing and take 2x as long as he would to regain his balance.
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
I rarely miss L-cancels and yet I'm not able to do the crazy *** combos you do (not often atleast. maybe if I play 100 matches i'll do 2-3 combos of the type that you do 2-3 times every match). I'm sure that even if L-canceling was automatic, I still wouldn't be able to do those combos. (consistently)
In fact, when I mess up these combos it's almost never because I miss the L-cancel.
If you think it's fun to practice and become good because of your hard work I can understand that, I think so aswell. But the game would still be very technical without L-canceling, and it would still reward the players that trained really hard to become good. (and those players would still be much faster then people who didn't practice hard)
And since L canceling is in my opinion a poorly designed game mechanic that only adds some tech skill that would be there anyway, L-canceling is useless. (I think it's a poorly designed game mechanic b/c it adds nothing to the core gameplay). I don't really mind it being there, it doesn't exactly bother me, but it's still pointless.
edit: btw, im not trying to degrade your opinion or start an argument or anything like that at all. (I'm just wondering what you think and why, and expressing my own opinion)
Dash dance->dash attack. If pivoting was somehow automatic or if the window of time for a pivot was much larger people who wanted to do a dash attack out of a dash dance would accidently throw out random pivot fsmashes
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
That's a pretty cool analogy; I've never thought of it that way.
jugfingers
Smash Champion
contradict yourself more please, you keep talking about how you ALWAYS need to l-cancel and here your claiming that he didn't need to l-cancel his second dair to tech chase.
he would not have had an opportunity to techcase if he hadn't l-cancel a dash from a non l-cancelled dair would have been to slow. and hypothetically dark falchion could have techrolled immediately, l-cancelling that last dair is always the best option.
probably cause we were discussing a falco combo,
and I also mentioned fox's shine bair in that paragraph maybe you just didn't read it.
in both cases shine bair is less technically demanding then a dair->dair combo
not each individual fast fall but his ability to string them together through platforms is much faster, his l-cancelling doesn't make his lag less, or his fast falling faster, but he is stringing them together in the most immediate fashion.
and anytime your doing something faster that requires pressing L a couple times in between you have to put all your button presses closer together which takes more physical ability than having all the button presses further apart,
faster=harder to do
and shiz's ability to set up this combo is amazing? lol its funny cause its such a good examle of shiz just ****** with pure speed.watch the combo again at 1:16 after being hit with a bair he just techs off a platform and rushes back him with a dair as dark falchion rushes him with a nair, they both collide and hit each other dark falchion gets knocked to the ground and shiz lands beside him with minor hitstun then proceeds to press down B, thats what setup this combo, down b. dark falchion has really nice DI out of the shine and shiz pops out of the shine with a shorthop empty fastfalls(quickly) back down to the ground then dashes into a fulljumped dair initiating the combo.
all that setup this combo was rushing a dair into a shine.
( shiz def has mad raw mindgames though foreal)
I brought up shiz as an example because I think hes probably the fastest in the world right now, and is a good example for this discussion.
if you l-cancel a dair onto a platform and just stand there for a second, then drop off or through the platform and l-cancel a dair your doing it slower than is possible.
shiz is linking the two together faster than you or your friend trust me. and the faster you do this the more difficult it is to l-cancel it, l-cancelling isn't making him go faster than anyone else who l-cancels it. its his ability to start moving immediately at the first possible instance. but in doing this faster every button press to do with this combo becomes harder to pull off perfectly.
and giving credit to shiz's lasering wouldn't have anything to do with l-cancelling so I don't know why I would bring that up. his shield pressure however does though so I will bring that up,
Shiz has super ill shield pressure cause he can l-cancel good and stuff.
well lucky for you that's not what I was arguing
I said its always beneficial to l-cancel, because it makes you move faster. not that you shouldn't l-cancel. and even if everyone is l-canceling 100% of the time your still being rewarded with fluid movement and the ability to implement whatever strategy you desire at whatever speed without being inhibited by lag
I'll try one more time to make my main point here, feel free to ignore it completely
1) l-canceling allows your character to move freely without movement being prohibited by lag
2)the faster you move in between l-cancels, (dashing out of l-cancelled aerials into other l-cancelled aerials, platform waveland dropping into l-cancelled aerials etc)
the harder it is to l-cancel perfectly
2)the faster you move the harder it is to not make mistakes,
2)the faster you move the harder it is to l-cancel perfectly
3)the faster you move the greater advantage you have over your opponent
4) l-cancelling allows you to move as fast as you possibly can
5) two players both l-cancelling everything perfectly are not necessarily playing at the same speed.
6)a player who is simultanously able to increase his speed and keep his l-cancelling perfect will have an advantage over a player who needs to play slower in order to retain perfect l-canceled aerials.
7)thus automatic l-cancelling is for scrubs and pregnant women.
awww your so cute when your confused,
the word technique is a synonym for the word skill.
your probably thinking of auto l-canceling which would take no skill or difficulty,
need some backup for this ish though.
Hey pink reaper from a few pages ago, what do you think about keeping manual l-canceling in smash?
oh **** gg son. *slaps high five with Pink Reaper from a few pages ago*
.....****
MikeHaggarTHAKJB
Smash Master
I don't understand how you can keep missing Pink Reaper's point after so many pages of discussion. Are you stupid or just stubborn?
Lol @ l-canceling perfectly. Either you l-cancel or you miss it. And it's always a 7 frame window (unless there is hitlag involved, then there's sometimes more, but I'm to lazy to explain how that works now).
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