Melee community: would you have REALLY cared if L-canceling was automatic?

[Pink Reaper]

That's still just difficulty for difficulties sake. There's no real reason for it >_>

 

[Wobbles]

I think we can all agree that the discussion has degenerated enough that this thread needs closing.

I agree, Skler. Good ****, Melee. Good ****.

 

[jugfingers]

iceclimberhead? -_T

You don't have to be perfect to L-cancel your aerials at every crucial moment. It's one button press at a specific time.

When you take into account the other ATs of Melee, no you are not crippling the atheletic ability required to play Melee. Fox/Falco still require speed of fingers to play effienciently.

With manual or Auto L-cancel, DaShiz would still **** in the same way he does now. All high level players will.

If all that made Melee technical was L-canceling, then Melee would barely be technical at all.

And I can too L-cancel consistently >

I'm just thinking of those new to Melee who have to deal with the barrier of L-canceling before they deal with the TRUE nature of what seperates players.

I was referring to wobbles as icicleclimber head....cause he is one.


its not one button press, its many button presses repeatedly in very quick succession , l-cancelling consistently is vastly different than shffling drillshines incredibly fast, and this does seperate top players from highlevel players. l-cancelling is not just pressing a button its about precise timing in intense battle. taking this away is lowering the depth of technical play.


your just advocating for the game to be less mentally demanding in terms of concentration and timing, which is part of the reason why eliteplayers can beat highlevel pros.

this wouldn't just lessen the gap between pros and noobs it would lessen the gap between all players.

there is different levels of abilities and speed of l-canceling among top level players contrary to what you falsely believe, and this is part of the reason why top level players beat other top level players PART of the reason. and taking this away is simply taking away the necessity to have accurate precision, skill and proficient concentration in a highly competitive tournament game which is ridiculous for anyone to suggest,




EDIT

nice post skler

 

[metaXzero]

I think we can all agree that the discussion has degenerated enough that this thread needs closing.

Yep. In the end, it just boils down to whether a person likes to press a button for something (no matter how simple and pointless that press may be). The gap caused by those who are accustomed to it and those who aren't (due to being new to it) doesn't matter to those who like to press the button and feel accomplished despite its simplicity in the long run.

Too bad mods don't pay attention to me...

 

[Zodiac]

its just one more skill gap to overcome.

 

[metaXzero]

its just one more skill gap to overcome.

One that is only there for technical's sake.

Just saying.

 

[jugfingers]

One that is only there for technical's sake.

Just saying.

part of being good at competitive smash is being technically adept.

you wouldn't be suggesting having auto-l cancelling if you you were yourself.

 

[metaXzero]

part of being good at competitive smash is being technically adept.

you wouldn't be suggesting having auto-l cancelling if you you were yourself.

Utilizing your options to it's fullest is what seperates good and bad players. Manual L-cancels won't matter in the long run

And stop accusing of being technically lacking when you don't even know me. I don't suggest this for me. I suggest for newcomers wanting to get to the REAL meat of the game (WD, CC, DI, Combos, Mindgames) instead of dealing with a pointless barrier that only exists because people like the satisfaction of doing something so menial.

 

[BrawlLover]

it's a huge gap skill to overcome

 

[Banks]

p3n1s in yah butt son, p3n15 in ya butt

 

[BrawlLover]

all day wong!

 

[jugfingers]

Utilizing your options to it's fullest is what seperates good and bad players. Manual L-cancels won't matter in the long run

concentration, precision and timing don't matter at all?

 

[metaXzero]

concentration, precision and timing don't matter at all?

Those too. They matter when utilizing your options...

 

[BrawlLover]

spacing/placement

 

[jugfingers]

Those too. They matter when utilizing your options...

but I guess those attributes don't have anything to do with l-cancelling do they.

 

[Binx]

Eh, I don't really care either way, I'm really only VERY upset at the loss of dash dancing in brawl, I also really like wavedashing and wavelanding but could live without them, I could care less about L canceling as long as the lag is still short enough to combo out of.

 

[metaXzero]

but I guess those attributes don't have anything to do with l-cancelling do they.

Well of course they do when you are just learning it. But after you get used to L-canceling, it just become muscle memory.

 

[BrawlLover]

just the movement alone is entirely gone

 

[dudutsai]

But the "skill" doesn't matter at mid-to-high level play since both players will be consistent with it...

Making it automatic would make it easier for people new to get to the techs that actually matter in the long run (Wavedash, DI, Crouch-Cancel, etc.) instead of dealing with a pointless barrier.

Most Mid to high level players are equally consistent at wavedashing and other stuff as well (consistent, but they still make mistakes even for easy stuff like l-canceling once in a while). All that taking away manual l-canceling would do is make it easier for new people.

I don't really feel like looking back through all those pages again, but could you tell me if and why that is wrong?

 

[metaXzero]

Most Mid to high level players are equally consistent at wavedashing and other stuff as well (consistent, but they still make mistakes even for easy stuff like l-canceling once in a while). All that taking away manual l-canceling would do is make it easier for new people.

I don't really feel like looking back through all those pages again, but could you tell me if and why that is wrong?

With WD and other techs though, you DON'T always want to do it. They have their situations where they are the best and worst options.

Removing a POINTLESS technical barrier while retaining the overall deepness of the game and options for me ISN'T wrong. It keeps the game enjoyable with depth while allowing newcomers to get to what is important to being good.

 

[Zodiac]

One that is only there for technical's sake.

Just saying.

You can look it at that way, or you can look at it the right way. That its there for skills sake, it would take SO much less skill to auto cancel aerials, it would be you know, boring to simply fast fall instead of a button press.

Yes, it would have really affected how competitive the game was.

 

[DoH]

With WD and other techs though, you DON'T always want to do it. They have their situations where they are the best and worst options.

Removing a POINTLESS technical barrier while retaining the overall deepness of the game and options for me ISN'T wrong. It keeps the game enjoyable with depth while allowing newcomers to get to what is important to being good.

It's not pointless.

It's a test of skill.

It's like being able to keep the ball in bounds in tennis. Most everyone can do it consistently, and it's never the best option to not (though I disagree slightly; I sometimes don't FC/l-cancel Peach fairs to duck under sheik/marth grabs). However, we shouldn't make rackets or balls that force shots to stay in bound because using topspin and other sets of skills to keep a ball in bounds is a technical threshold that everyone must pass in order to compete. Not only is it a test of athletic/relex ability (like l-cancels) but it is also a mental test, whether or not you can focus to hit the ball in the direction you want it and continue to play, much like l-cancels force you to be able to press a button to achieve a goal. It's not some monumental task that's insurmountable, like Rob's pie balance beam example. It provides depth without detracting from the experience. Removing l-canceling button presses doesn't provide an equal amount of depth because the physical component isn't there. L-cancelling is a reasonble test, and therefore sets a bright line as to what is expected out of a tournament player.

Tournaments are more than just the matches played; they're tests of endurance. Whether or not your eyes can take staring at a TV, or if your hands cramp up, or if you get distracted because you haven't eaten in hours, or will you still be playing the same if you go to the restroom and pee out the 4 red bulls you had earlier...Especially for space animal players; they have all these advantages, like Fox's guaranteed kills if he lands a drill on certain characters, at the cost of having to press a button and be able to do the inputs.

This isn't some RPG, where once you learn something you can use it over and over and not have to exert yourself; l-cancelling is a skill that you have to exercise everytime you need it.

If you want auto l-cancels, play Peach and just FC. Seriously.

 

[Darth Waffles]

Alright, I've got more time to discuss this now, so here we go again. EDIT: There's ANOTHER wobbles post that I'm supposed to refute? :\

L-canceling really should be automatic.

Melee already has a lot of technical tricks and nuances to it that require practice and knowledge. Taking away l-canceling doesn't diminish the competitiveness of the game at all. The game is competitive because there are lots of options and situations to outthink and outplay your opponent.

SSB64 was competetive because it was all about avoiding the 0-death combos. Although it was easily possible to mess up these combos, SSB64 defined the smash bros series as being competetive because of l-canceling. There was no airdodging or anything, just getting out of the hitstun and avoiding or attacking back. Seriously, L-cancelling, even though it may not have been hard, was what made the game competetive, or at least exciting.
Note: SSB64 is/was played with 5-6 stocks

SSBM was competetive because of multiple advanced tactics. One prominent one was l-cancelling. Are there other situations to out-think or out-play your opponent? Yes, but if you can't jump through the hoops by L-cancelling yourself, then you're taking out an important skill which shows that you put in the time to learn how to follow up your attacks.
Note: SSBM is/was played with 4 stocks

SSBB was immediately deemed "less competetive" than the other two because of a lack of techniques which made the other two competetive. It had no L-cancelling, and less hitstun after connecting hits to make following up attacks even harder. I'm pretty sure that there's an old thread floating somewhere in one of the general discussions about what makes a game competetive. Brawl was considered the least competetive of them all, despite all of the new characters, moves, and "basic advanced tactics," for lack of a better term.
Note: SSBB is played with 3 stocks. There's definitely a trend here, and I believe that a great deal of it is from the automatic NO L-cancelling

Skler: You don't want to always sweet spot because there are options available from not doing it. There's depth to whether a person will try to sweet spot the edge or not; it creates a strategic situation. Powershielding is a bonus based on knowing exactly when the opponent will attack you; regardless, it's not even a really viable part of the game beyond projectile reflection because it's so difficult to do. You wouldn't want to JC your shines automatically because there are situations where delaying the jump is the smarter option.

Also, drillshine infinites can be affected with smash DI and still require effort regarding the timing of your wavedash and consistently short-hopping (ANOTHER technical aspect where strategic choice is involved).

So you want to take out pressing a button to L-cancel simply because there are OTHER technical aspects involved in the string or timing of the buttons? That's either oddly convenient, or taking the easy way out, something I'll talk about below. You favor the former, and I believe the latter.

You always want to l-cancel. Always. There is no time where failing to l-cancel is the smarter move. The only exception I can think of is Kirby, whose landing lag puts him in a crouching animation that makes him harder to grab. As long as we're amending the game though, I have quite a few suggestions regarding Kirby, but L-canceling?

You want to l-cancel. If you don't get it off, however, you need to adjust to the lag and react with consideration to the landing lag. Isn't that just another example of what you refer to as "strategic choice?"

I mentioned this before, and it may have been addressed since my original post, but do you really believe that there is absolutely no chance of the "slippery slope" effect that I keep seeing in some of these posts? Think of why you want L-cancelling to be automatic. Why, of all things to change or become automatic, are you focusing on L-cancelling? Because it's "always the right thing to do"? Going with that...
...The next day...
Thread: "Should falco's short hop laser be automatic?" Post: Pressing B on the ground is clearly worse in all cases than short hop lasering. Any tournament-viable falcos will have learned to SHL with ease. Therefore, pressing B while on the ground (not necessarily the ledge), should automatically start the jumping animation as well, eliminating the need to press the jump button itself. The control stick would still be used for momentum and air control, including fastfalling or not.
...Eventually...
Thread: "Should JC grabs be automatic if you're in range?" Post: Standard grabbing is clearly inferior to JC grabs if you're (only) in range of the latter. Any tournament-viable characters will always want to grab their opponent with a slightly increased range, rather than suffer from the lag of a missed grab. (etc.)

I'll agree that there are situations where trying to affect somebody's l-cancel timing is a strategic decision, and I honestly don't have a refutation for it. I do believe, however, that it's a fair trade-off to lose those situations and make Melee less mechanical.

A fair trade-off to lose "situations when you try to affect somebody's l-cancel timing"? You just told me all about how L-cancelling is so required and so necessary that it has become a standard part of the game. You said how since there's no time that I wouldn't want to L-cancel, it should be automatic, simply eliminating the need to press the button, since everyone always wants to L-cancel anyway. It's not that there are "situations" when you would want to force your opponent to miss the L-cancel, you always want your opponent to miss them. It clearly gives you more time to make your "strategic choices," and also reduces your opponent's options. If you want to L-cancel every time, AND you benefit from your opponent NOT L-cancelling, then having automatic L-cancelling clearly makes a difference.

Yes, you practiced it, it made you better, but it didn't *teach* you anything about playing the game well besides giving you lower lag moves. It didn't make you a smarter or more strategic player. It puts unnecessary technical pressure on you.

Unnecessary technical pressure? Hang on, there. Didn't you keep reiterating in earlier posts how you make moves assuming that both you and your opponent will L-cancel? You (or someone else) even went to the extent of saying that the chances of someone missing their L-cancels is small--> negligible--> automatic L-cancelling wouldn't change much. Doesn't that mean that with all this assumption going on, and the fact that it is so standard that everyone at a tournament can do it at least 90% of the time, just mean that it's easy? You can't tell me that something so standard and easy should be automated to avoid "unnecessary technical pressure." We're almost at the "convenient vs easy way out" part

There are plenty of situations to practice your tech skill in creative ways that set you apart from other players; l-canceling is not one of them. It's a chore, a needless hoop you have to jump through to experience the fun, creative and strategic aspects of Melee.

A needless hoop. Here we go with the convenience (of the person L-cancelling) versus easy way out (of the same person) argument.

Making L-cancelling automatic is, in effect, removing it from being an issue. If you always L-cancel, then that's one less thing to think about, right? One less button to press? You're cutting the number of situations to consider after performing an aerial in half. There's no worry about missing it, because it's automatic. You just have to wait for the halved frames of lag before you can go on with your "fun, creative, and strategic aspects" of playing. Great, huh?

I respectfully disagree. I believe that something shouldn't be automated just because the majority of people can perform it the majority of the time. To me, all that means is that people take it for granted (which may be true at a competetive level) whenver they perform it, but that the technique itself is easy, although still possible to mess up on. I think that people are just getting lazy about having to do it, and want an easy answer. I value the importance of every possibly-missed L-cancel, even if it only happens once or twice a match. You talk about getting infinites with the Ice Climbers by trying to make the other person miss an l-cancel. If you could get in a grab and do massive damage every time someone missed an l-cancel, why would you want to eliminate that possibility, however small it might be?

I don't think that a technique or button should be automated just because it's so easy yet necessary to perform. The possibility of failing, as I've mentioned earlier, is, in my opinion, well worth making the opponent push a button. At the risk of weakening my argument(s) by going a little off-topic, a technique or button should only be considered (and I'm really going out on a limb here, not really supporting this as much as my other points) to be automated only if NOT automating it would split the community in terms of winning into people who can perform ______ and people who can't. Honestly, though, if the intent is to make it more even (something even automated L-cancelling would do) by making it easier for people to do, a better thing than "automation" for the invaluable technique would be "ban", since they both remove the issue at hand, and banning just eliminates the "broken" technique from play anyway. This also removes the cries of "I can't perform _____ like _____ can, so it should be automated. Again, that probably just weakened my argument, but whatever... I'm kind of intent on finishing this post.

I'll risk being brutal when I say this: if an L-cancel is all that's separating you from your scrubby friends, then you are a scrub. You have no understanding of how to play this game well.

I agree! Yay! L-cancelling shouldn't be what separates someone from a scrubby friend. All in all, what I'm arguing, though, is that L-cancelling being automatic would definitely have an (non-negligible) impact on Melee, even in higher-level play.

 

[KevinM]

Well after reading this i've learned a few things.

1. Manual L-canceling is obviously better then automatic, sit on a **** if you think otherwise. JAY KAY but srsly.

2. <3 Maine and NH.

3. Skler is a beast.

4. Meta is a scrub.

5. Banks is sexy.

6. Meta is a scrub.

7. Th0rn is a sexy troll.

8. Meta is a scrub

 

[Darth Waffles]

Aww... All of the important-looking people who agreed with me (though with shorter posts) got on the list. No love for me after writing all of that right above your post?

 

[metaXzero]

WTF happened to the original definition of scrub? Seriously...

 

[Skler]

Yep. In the end, it just boils down to whether a person likes to press a button for something (no matter how simple and pointless that press may be). The gap caused by those who are accustomed to it and those who aren't (due to being new to it) doesn't matter to those who like to press the button and feel accomplished despite its simplicity in the long run.

Too bad mods don't pay attention to me...

Even the people arguing for your side agree that l-canceling adds some depth. They just think the l-cancel is more of a barrier than that amount of depth is worth (which is admittedly small).

You're the only person on this thread who doesn't seem to know how to argue. Stop posting. Stop trying to get the last word in. It isn't that I can't accept your opinion, it's that you blatantly ignore everything that's said that does not support you. Hell, Wobbles even supported you and said l-canceling does add some depth (just not enough to warrant the technical barrier) and you ignored that too. This thread should be closed and you should never post in the Melee section again. Seriously, stop.

If your post wasn't such a smug, underhanded shot at all the people who like manual l-canceling I wouldn't have minded you being such an idiot (though it was annoying). you made no valid points. Wobbles pretty much made your whole argument with the help of a few others. All you did was say the same exact thing that had already been refuted over and over again while adding nothing to the debate. It was annoying and a waste of space. After that you made the post that I quoted. It makes you look like a tool.

 

[jugfingers]

Well of course they do when you are just learning it. But after you get used to L-canceling, it just become muscle memory.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig2kVduNIAM&feature=related

1:16-1:21

"yea everyone can do that if they practise l-cancelling for awhile so lets just make it automatic"


.... said the scrub.

 

[iMichael]

WTF happened to the original definition of scrub? Seriously...

The one TLC made?

 

[metaXzero]

It's not pointless.

It's a test of skill.

It's like being able to keep the ball in bounds in tennis. Most everyone can do it consistently, and it's never the best option to not (though I disagree slightly; I sometimes don't FC/l-cancel Peach fairs to duck under sheik/marth grabs). However, we shouldn't make rackets or balls that force shots to stay in bound because using topspin and other sets of skills to keep a ball in bounds is a technical threshold that everyone must pass in order to compete. Not only is it a test of athletic/relex ability (like l-cancels) but it is also a mental test, whether or not you can focus to hit the ball in the direction you want it and continue to play, much like l-cancels force you to be able to press a button to achieve a goal. It's not some monumental task that's insurmountable, like Rob's pie balance beam example. It provides depth without detracting from the experience. Removing l-canceling button presses doesn't provide an equal amount of depth because the physical component isn't there. L-cancelling is a reasonble test, and therefore sets a bright line as to what is expected out of a tournament player.

Tournaments are more than just the matches played; they're tests of endurance. Whether or not your eyes can take staring at a TV, or if your hands cramp up, or if you get distracted because you haven't eaten in hours, or will you still be playing the same if you go to the restroom and pee out the 4 red bulls you had earlier...Especially for space animal players; they have all these advantages, like Fox's guaranteed kills if he lands a drill on certain characters, at the cost of having to press a button and be able to do the inputs.

This isn't some RPG, where once you learn something you can use it over and over and not have to exert yourself; l-cancelling is a skill that you have to exercise everytime you need it.

If you want auto l-cancels, play Peach and just FC. Seriously.

My knowledge of Tennis fails. I can't effectively try and refute that analogue. I'll respond to that after looking it up on my own time.

Anyway, L-canceling itself is simply muscle memory. You see yourself landing, you press a shoulder button. It's like when someone throws a ball at your face and you put your hands up to block, or even something coming to your eye and you blink. It's not really a skill.

 

[jugfingers]

The one TLC made?

lololololol

11lols


EDIT

My knowledge of Tennis fails. I can't effectively try and refute that analogue. I'll respond to that after looking it up on my own time.

Anyway, L-canceling itself is simply muscle memory. You see yourself landing, you press a shoulder button. It's like when someone throws a ball at your face and you put your hands up to block, or even something coming to your eye and you blink. It's not really a skill.

you don't think a blocking a tennis ball from hitting your face is a skill????


what......

wait what..




seriously dude I really wish I was in the room with you when you posted that so I could smoke you in the face with a tennisball and then be like ......"gg"

 

[Banks]

Aww... All of the important-looking people who agreed with me (though with shorter posts) got on the list. No love for me after writing all of that right above your post?

I think you take the cake for arguing the hardest ^_^ lawl


and kevinM you so secksy haf mah babby

 

[metaXzero]

Even the people arguing for your side agree that l-canceling adds some depth. They just think the l-cancel is more of a barrier than that amount of depth is worth (which is admittedly small).

You're the only person on this thread who doesn't seem to know how to argue. Stop posting. Stop trying to get the last word in. It isn't that I can't accept your opinion, it's that you blatantly ignore everything that's said that does not support you. Hell, Wobbles even supported you and said l-canceling does add some depth (just not enough to warrant the technical barrier) and you ignored that too. This thread should be closed and you should never post in the Melee section again. Seriously, stop.

If your post wasn't such a smug, underhanded shot at all the people who like manual l-canceling I wouldn't have minded you being such an idiot (though it was annoying). you made no valid points. Wobbles pretty much made your whole argument with the help of a few others. All you did was say the same exact thing that had already been refuted over and over again while adding nothing to the debate. It was annoying and a waste of space. After that you made the post that I quoted. It makes you look like a tool.

Where in that post did I say manual L-canceling DIDN'T add depth? Where did I take an underhanded shot at those who prefer it? I said in the end, it boils down to whether or not you like to press the button.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ig2kVduNIAM&feature=related

1:16-1:21

"yea everyone can do that if they practise l-cancelling for awhile so lets just make it automatic"


.... said the scrub.

It's not loading for me. You'll have to tell me what happened.

And again, what happened to the def. of "scrub"?

 

[jugfingers]

Where in that post did I say manual L-canceling DIDN'T add depth? Where did I take an underhanded shot at those who prefer it? I said in the end, it boils down to whether or not you like to press the button.


It's not loading for me. You'll have to tell me what happened.

And again, what happened to the def. of "scrub"?

johns...

dashizwiz refuted your "its just pressing a button argument" from about 1:16-1:21



EDIT

your a definition of a scrub.

 

[metaXzero]

DP

EDIT





you don't think a blocking a tennis ball from hitting your face is a skill????


what......

wait what..




seriously dude I really wish I was in the room with you when you posted that so I could smoke you in the face with a tennisball and then be like ......"gg"

The response of you trying to block the ball from hitting your face. Whether you actually blocked it isn't of concern here...

 

[jugfingers]

DP


The response of you trying to block the ball from hitting your face. Whether you actually blocked it isn't of concern here...

Just like the issue of whether you l-cancel isn't of concern when trying to l-cancel?


that basically contradicts your argument if your trying to make a comparison between l-canceling and blocking tennisballs from hitting your face.

 

[metaXzero]

johns...

dashizwiz refuted your "its just pressing a button argument" from about 1:16-1:21



EDIT

your a definition of a scrub.

By missing an L-cancel I assume lol. So he missed an L-cancel, maybe he even lost a stock because of it (didn't see the vid remember). But was his missing of L-cancels so consistent that his opponent could rely on it to secure victory?

And bring the definition of scrub here. Because I bet you guys just want a name to call me (even if in this context, it makes no since).

 

[Lirok]

Point of brawl+ is to make brawl a melee with more characters and stages. Thats it. No need to try and upgrade what is already amazing.

So keep the necessity to press the button. If you cant learn to time it, or arent coordinated enough, your wasting your time with melee (or brawl+) and should just play brawl.

 

[Ryan-K]

Where in that post did I say manual L-canceling DIDN'T add depth? Where did I take an underhanded shot at those who prefer it? I said in the end, it boils down to whether or not you like to press the button.

Here

Auto and Manual give the same depth (more options from reduced lag). Manual just has a pointless button press.

My comparison of missed L-canceling and is valid in the fact you can't rely on them winning you the match due to the rarity of it happening.

If it preserves the deepness of the game while removing a pointless tech barrier (which allows new players that AREN'T scrubs to get in) then it's beneficial.

Also your whole argument is just dumb "boils down to whether or not you like to press the button."

Really?

Have you been in here the past like 16 pages or do you choose not to read?

It doesn't preserve the deepness of the game either, learning to l cancel consistently and keeping that consistency is part of skill. saying technical consistency isn't skill or that doing something manually is as deep as the game doing it for you is outright dumb. Muscle memory is something you have to develop and even then it's not 100% or else humans would be perfect. Have you even played melee?

edit thank you skler <3

 

[jugfingers]

By missing an L-cancel I assume lol. So he missed an L-cancel, maybe he even lost a stock because of it (didn't see the vid remember). But was his missing of L-cancels so consistent that his opponent could rely on it to secure victory?

And bring the definition of scrub here. Because I bet you guys just want a name to call me (even if in this context, it makes no since).

haha no he ***** the **** out of dark falchion with an amazing combo.. it was just a muscle reflex though I guess anyone could really have done it.....

seriously though watch the vid when you get the chance.