Melee community: would you have REALLY cared if L-canceling was automatic?

[metaXzero]

What I don't get is why you guys are debating a hypothetical subject?

This started as an attempt to get that misplaced Brawl+ thread on track again, then an attempt to see how many Melee faithful would care if it were auto. Now, I'm just debating points that say "Manual beats Auto because--". Preference, I can't do anything about though........

 

[metaXzero]

why does that matter, no one plays waiting for mistakes, but when they happen you punish them. no one plays street fighter waiting for someone to mess up a combo, but when they do they get punished. no one fights in the UFC expecting their opponent to slip on their own poop and fall, but if it happened the guy would get his *** beat for it. kthanks

If the mistake (missed L-cancels) almost never happens in a match turning fashion for those used to it, why even have the ability to miss it.

I could understand manual L-canceling if their was a downside to it, but their isn't.

Magus said something like this in the Auto-L-cancel vs. L-cancel vs. S-cancel thread on the Brawl boards: Name other GOOD fighters that have a mechanic that is 100% the best thing to do in all situations.

DP -_-

 

[ZeroFrames]

I cant believe that there are 11 sides of discussion for such a thing

What is the Problem in Manual-LC?

It makes Finger-Movement faster and is a factor of concentration which should be in an CompettiveGame. Also it needs to be learnd and in my opinion, a game which i can earn money in, should have 2-3 Years Practise-Time.

Probaply it is useless to press a Button for high Matches
but why the **** do you want it out?

There are much more Arguments for Manual and Dito!

Thread should be closed

 

[th0rn]

I mean, for the whole having l-cancel either be manual or automatic for "brawl".... I don't think it matters because brawl is a horrible game anyway and adding l-canceling won't fix it.

As for this debate in melee... Even if we somehow could change it to automatic, all the "good" players would still press the L button anyway because it's a habit. We would just switch it off for random noobs, who would still get dominated if they actually did not know how to L-cancel.

 

[metaXzero]

I cant believe that there are 11 sides of discussion for such a thing

What is the Problem in Manual-LC?

It makes Finger-Movement faster and is a factor of concentration which should be in an CompettiveGame. Also it needs to be learnd and in my opinion, a game which i can earn money in, should have 2-3 Years Practise-Time.

Probaply it is useless to press a Button for high Matches
but why the **** do you want it out?

There are much more Arguments for Manual and Dito!

Thread should be closed

Being technical for the sake of being technical. That's basically what Manual L-canceling is. It makes a barrier between those accustomed and those not. That's a dumb and pointless barrier.

What is "Dito"?

 

[Vro]

I think that playing with the expectation that your opponent (who's used to L-canceling) will miss an L-cancel at a crucial moment is the same (not quite but similar) as playing Brawl expecting to your opponent to trip at a crucial moment: Really dum.

Sorry for the late reply but if you have to expect a missed l-cancel to punish it, you're not a very good player. If the opponent is within reach and they missed an l-cancel, you can easily grab or combo them. In a lot of matchups, zero to death is very possible and mistakes adds up.

 

[metaXzero]

I mean, for the whole having l-cancel either be manual or automatic for "brawl".... I don't think it matters because brawl is a horrible game anyway and adding l-canceling won't fix it.

As for this debate in melee... Even if we somehow could change it to automatic, all the "good" players would still press the L button anyway because it's a habit. We would just switch it off for random noobs, who would still get dominated if they actually did not know how to L-cancel.

Lag-canceling isn't the only thing added to Brawl+ (hitstun, sheildstun, removal of auto-sweetspotting, etc.).

As said, auto would allow newcomers to get into what really makes the game good competitively (utilizing of options given by reduced lag, DI, etc) instead of working around a pointless barrier.

 

[metaXzero]

DP

Sorry for the late reply but if you have to expect a missed l-cancel to punish it, you're not a very good player. If the opponent is within reach and they missed an l-cancel, you can easily grab or combo them. In a lot of matchups, zero to death is very possible and mistakes adds up.

If they miss an L-cancel, you punish it. But them missing L-cancels should not be a key part to you winning since they are going to get their L-cancels at most times.

 

[BrawlLover]

auto sweet spot is the funniest thing i've seen

 

[ridikulus]

Ok, so what you're saying, is you suck and you wish L-Cancelling was automatic, so the people who suck like you and dont even realize that there is more to L-Cancelling besides cancelling lag, can compete on an even level with the good players?
sounds like brawl.

L-cancelling expands possible mental game wich you clearly havent stumbled upon,
I'm not gonna bother explaining because you're a blithering idiot.
But it has to do with pressure, baiting, forcing people into corners, under and over shooting etc. It has a lot more to do with than just "cancel lag" .

You say melee is good because you can utilize the options reduced by lag, and reading DI, etc. OOookkkk...
Well, first of all, before you jump to the large mental game melee has, you need to be TECHNICALLY COMPETENT, you have to be able to focus on your opponent and observe what he does, exploit the flaws you pick up on.
YES. of COURSE you can do this if the lag was auto cancelled.
But the work that goes into your tech skill is a waste of time. Just like brawl, you dont need to ****ing practice because everything is set and done for you, so all brawl is, majorly based on mental game.
So where exactly is there a difference between brawl and melee now, once you take out a key part of the game and the way characters move?

just go play brawl. bai bai thread. this was pointless.

 

[Vro]

DP
If they miss an L-cancel, you punish it. But them missing L-cancels should not be a key part to you winning since they are going to get their L-cancels at most times.

What good player relies on their opponent to make a technical mistake? The point isn't reliance or expectation. Just as Banks said, if they miss it, you punish it. L-Canceling by no means is hard, it's just the most commonly used tech.

 

[Wobbles]

Banks: Crouching punch does a different kind of punch than standing still. Forward+punch often does a different kind of punch as well. That's a pretty weak counterargument.

You *could* say that there should be a special button for fireballs, where holding back does a weak fireball, neutral does a medium fireball, and forward does a fast one... but then what about uppercuts and hurricane kicks? The special move mechanic is designed to give characters a varied moveset with SF's chosen button layout. You'll also note that Sirlin, in his HD remix redesign for Super Turbo, made certain character's specials less difficult to execute; his exact reasoning is that the game is about the decisions you make, not unnecessarily complicated inputs.

Is a wavedash unnecessarily complicated? No. It arises naturally from the game's engine. You jump to leave the ground so you can airdodge, you airdodge to use its momentum to slide along the ground. It requires practice to do consistently with multiple characters, but it's logical.

Skler: I also think you're underestimating how long it takes for the average player to master L-canceling. Fifteen minutes and you L-cancel perfectly under complicated gameplay situations? It took me over a year to be effective at L-canceling, wavedashing, and short-hopping during actual gameplay, and I still messed them up constantly. Admittedly, I'm not a shining example of technical talent, but that was a huge barrier to overcome before I could even start thinking about the game strategically.

I'm a more technically sound player now (constant practice for three years will aid even the untalented), so please don't assume I'm complaining because I don't want to put in work. I love practicing. But there's a significant time investment where there is no reason to have it.

The question is simply this: why should there be a special input to cancel your lag when you always want that input to happen? I don't always want to dash, so there's a difference between walking and dashing. I don't always want to short hop, so there's a difference between short hops and full jumps. I don't always want to wavedash or waveshine, so different commands are required. Why is a special command required when that command is the only viable thing to input?

And for other slippery-slope folks... no, this doesn't mean your f-smash should always magnetize you to the opponent because hitting him with the smash is always the superior option to missing. You know that's ridiculous. I shouldn't have to explain why, but I guess I will.

1) In teams with friendly fire, your teammate is an enemy for all intents and purposes besides the victory conditions of the match. Your forward-smash now magnetizes to him if he's nearby. Great.

2) This nullifies the point of dodging, rolling, and using any evasive maneuvers because your f-smash always hits when you input it, eliminating strategy and turning the game into "who f-smashes first."

3) Oh, but wait, it doesn't matter who f-smashes first, because TIMING is involved in connecting with your smash, and we're eliminating that too. So as long as the smash hasn't hit me yet, mine will also keep me safe.

Of course L-canceling is a skill. I could also argue it takes more skill to perform in Skler's balance beam example if people throw pies at you while doing your routine, or if you had to whistle the entire time. Just because something becomes more difficult and requires an extra skill doesn't mean it's more deep or strategic. It's just harder.

Without it, I guarantee you the smarter players who make better decisions and who practice more would still win. The game would still be fast paced and challenging and difficult and deep, and it would even continue to have more new blood who weren't discouraged into believe they needed years of practice to even start *thinking* about the game. It would shift focus onto what the game is actually about, because I promise you that Smash is not, at its core, about punching the trigger button every time you land.

Edit: ridikulus, your name is remarkably apt. What other technical skills could there possibly be to practice in Melee besides L-canceling?

Certainly not waveshining, wavedashing, short hopping, timing your fast-falls around hit stun, spacing on sweetspots, spacing in general, SH-double aerials, moonwalking, pivoting, DJC'ing, shield-dropping on platforms, platform-cancels, auto-cancels, wavelands, JC'ed shines, de-syncs, chaingrabs, wavedashes out of shield, JC'ed grabs, float-canceling, shine-b-airs, up-smash out of shield, buffering tilts... None of those. Nope.

 

[th0rn]

New players to melee still couldn't get involved just because l-canceling is now auto... they'd still get dominated and probably would slit their dirty little wrists.

Why make a game like melee, when you can just play melee? oh wait, new characters and color schemes.... holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit >_>

 

[ZeroFrames]

Ok, so what you're saying, is you suck and you wish L-Cancelling was automatic, so the people who suck like you and dont even realize that there is more to L-Cancelling besides cancelling lag, can compete on an even level with the good players?
sounds like brawl.

L-cancelling expands possible mental game wich you clearly havent stumbled upon,
I'm not gonna bother explaining because you're a blithering idiot.
But it has to do with pressure, baiting, forcing people into corners, under and over shooting etc. It has a lot more to do with than just "cancel lag" .

You say melee is good because you can utilize the options reduced by lag, and reading DI, etc. OOookkkk...
Well, first of all, before you jump to the large mental game melee has, you need to be TECHNICALLY COMPETENT, you have to be able to focus on your opponent and observe what he does, exploit the flaws you pick up on.
YES. of COURSE you can do this if the lag was auto cancelled.
But the work that goes into your tech skill is a waste of time. Just like brawl, you dont need to ****ing practice because everything is set and done for you, so all brawl is, majorly based on mental game.
So where exactly is there a difference between brawl and melee now, once you take out a key part of the game and the way characters move?

just go play brawl. bai bai thread. this was pointless.

a bit hard but.... he is right xD

qft.

 

[BrawlLover]

Ok, so what you're saying, is you suck and you wish L-Cancelling was automatic, so the people who suck like you and dont even realize that there is more to L-Cancelling besides cancelling lag, can compete on an even level with the good players?
sounds like brawl.

L-cancelling expands possible mental game wich you clearly havent stumbled upon,
I'm not gonna bother explaining because you're a blithering idiot.
But it has to do with pressure, baiting, forcing people into corners, under and over shooting etc. It has a lot more to do with than just "cancel lag" .

You say melee is good because you can utilize the options reduced by lag, and reading DI, etc. OOookkkk...
Well, first of all, before you jump to the large mental game melee has, you need to be TECHNICALLY COMPETENT, you have to be able to focus on your opponent and observe what he does, exploit the flaws you pick up on.
YES. of COURSE you can do this if the lag was auto cancelled.
But the work that goes into your tech skill is a waste of time. Just like brawl, you dont need to ****ing practice because everything is set and done for you, so all brawl is, majorly based on mental game.
So where exactly is there a difference between brawl and melee now, once you take out a key part of the game and the way characters move?

just go play brawl. bai bai thread. this was pointless.

yes you need mass tech skill to be able to compete but to win over your opponent, you have to be smarter and use better strategies

 

[metaXzero]

Ok, so what you're saying, is you suck and you wish L-Cancelling was automatic, so the people who suck like you and dont even realize that there is more to L-Cancelling besides cancelling lag, can compete on an even level with the good players?
sounds like brawl.

L-cancelling expands possible mental game wich you clearly havent stumbled upon,
I'm not gonna bother explaining because you're a blithering idiot.
But it has to do with pressure, baiting, forcing people into corners, under and over shooting etc. It has a lot more to do with than just "cancel lag" .

You say melee is good because you can utilize the options reduced by lag, and reading DI, etc. OOookkkk...
Well, first of all, before you jump to the large mental game melee has, you need to be TECHNICALLY COMPETENT, you have to be able to focus on your opponent and observe what he does, exploit the flaws you pick up on.
YES. of COURSE you can do this if the lag was auto cancelled.
But the work that goes into your tech skill is a waste of time. Just like brawl, you dont need to ****ing practice because everything is set and done for you, so all brawl is, majorly based on mental game.
So where exactly is there a difference between brawl and melee now, once you take out a key part of the game and the way characters move?

just go play brawl. bai bai thread. this was pointless.

Options given by L-canceling are given by Auto-L-canceling. You DON'T need the experience from learning L-cancel to learn other techs. Otherwise, this post was basically just flaming me. Go **** off if that's all you are going to do.

What good player relies on their opponent to make a technical mistake? The point isn't reliance or expectation. Just as Banks said, if they miss it, you punish it. L-Canceling by no means is hard, it's just the most commonly used tech.

Commonly used because you HAVE to use it. If you don't rely on your opponent missing L-cancels, then why would it matter if L-canceling was automatic?

New players to melee still couldn't get involved just because l-canceling is now auto... they'd still get dominated and probably would slit their dirty little wrists.

Why make a game like melee, when you can just play melee? oh wait, new characters and color schemes.... holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit >_>

If new players can't get in at all, then Melee would have died a LONG time ago.

1. Brawl+ will never be Melee (even with Melee airdodging)
2. We CAN play both you know >_>
3. Yes. Some Brawl characters aren't in Melee and some characters just FAIL in Melee.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Without it, I guarantee you the smarter players who make better decisions and who practice more would still win. The game would still be fast paced and challenging and difficult and deep, and it would even continue to have more new blood who weren't discouraged into believe they needed years of practice to even start *thinking* about the game. It would shift focus onto what the game is actually about, because I promise you that Smash is not, at its core, about punching the trigger button every time you land..

massive QFT
This is the ENTIRE reason I have the opinion that having to press L to cancel your lag is unnecessary. Thank you wobbles, you said it better then I ever could.

btw, how do you "buffer tilts"? do you mean like starting to tilt during the lag of something so you don't accidently dash/jump/do a smash attack?

 

[Ryan-K]

yeah are you kidding me lol

l cancel adds depth and saying relying on miss l cancel is the same as tripping is the stupidest **** i have ever heard because missing an l cancel is an error on the opponent's part and isn't random at all, and any half *** decent player doesn't rely on the opponent making a mistake on something as simple as l cancelling.

anything that strengthens the scrubs game for the sake of a bit of technical ease is dumb

skler is amazing

 

[ridikulus]

New players to melee still couldn't get involved just because l-canceling is now auto... they'd still get dominated and probably would slit their dirty little wrists.

Why make a game like melee, when you can just play melee? oh wait, new characters and color schemes.... holy shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit >_>

i love you.
go to CT so we can have hot steamy secks

 

[BrawlLover]

you can't disagree with skler, because his point is very valid

 

[metaXzero]

yeah are you kidding me lol

l cancel adds depth and saying relying on miss l cancel is the same as tripping is the stupidest **** i have ever heard because missing an l cancel is an error on the opponent's part and isn't random at all, and any half *** decent player doesn't rely on the opponent making a mistake on something as simple as l cancelling.

anything that strengthens the scrubs game for the sake of a bit of technical ease is dumb

skler is amazing

Auto and Manual give the same depth (more options from reduced lag). Manual just has a pointless button press.

My comparison of missed L-canceling and is valid in the fact you can't rely on them winning you the match due to the rarity of it happening.

If it preserves the deepness of the game while removing a pointless tech barrier (which allows new players that AREN'T scrubs to get in) then it's beneficial.

 

[knightpraetor]

tl; dr

only read to page 8 instead..

anyways, skler and wobbles posts were the most useful ones i think

L-cancelling does add a major feature in terms of screwing up L-cancelling timings...this is indeed a valid technique that is very important even at the highest levels of play...and i don't want to hear "but it's not like this is going to matter at top level play," because it does. Only when i was a scrub did i believe that nonsense about people like m2k never making technical mistakes. Even back then, m2k himself was always telling me how he had missed things over and over. Nowadays i've played for more years (about 5...3 competitively) and I can see how the vast majority of pro matches are determined by many small technical mistakes adding up..Failing to dash in time after an L-cancel (one of the biggest challenges of L-cancelling is not doing it when unnecessary and ending up with a shield...or doing it at the wrong timings against double shields, light shields, spotdodges, angled shields, and the like). And falco's most definitely do miss L-cancels occasionally even at the highest level..especially off of a fastfalled Full jumped aerial with falco onto an opponent who may or may not shield/Spotdodge...

L-cancelling is just as an important a technical skill as perfect wavedashing out of a shine or the many other skills that are necessary in high level play.

Despite this, I am in favor of removing L-cancelling...you're probably surprised about now....but despite spending years to get good at this game..i'm disappointed now because there is no one to play it with...teaching someone to get anywhere close to my level is hundreds of hours just to get the basic technical skills done. I would rather have more players, and the slight loss of L-cancelling...or even if they made wavedashes done by pressing L+R and a direction together..would be fine with me. But to act as if technical skill is unimportant and mental skill is all that should determine a match denies a big portion of video games. I don't think smash is chess. If we wish to make the game more reliant on mental skill instead of technical skill, that is fine; however, we need to realize that many gamers value physical talent just as highly. And we should also realize that in video games, the level of mental talent needed to learn matchups is not as high..so in order to differentiate between people at pro level play, it is usually better to have technical skill involved as well.

I mean, granted that m2k and the like have done well in brawl by learning matchups and learning how to use the characters they play well. However, it is much harder to differentiate top level play in brawl than in melee, and this is precisely because of the lack of technical differentiation.

Also, while i think that for fun with friends casual play is superior. At a tournament level, what made melee so beautiful to me was the unlimited skill cap. I say this without reserve. M2k lacks anything close to perfect technical skill..and even the pros flop too often in terms of technical skill. Moreover, even the pros don't keep all matchup knowledge in their head consistently. They often lose matches and have to adapt because they were playing stupid. I would argue that m2k's general style against mango wasn't very good to begin with as well...there was still so much potential in melee that is now being lost.

Anyways, i don't think the reason i dislike L-cancelling is because is is a technical skill..I think the main reason i dislike it is that it takes a long time to get down consistently and i would rather my friends be able to get into the game early and get addicted and then need technical skills to push the level up. Unfortunately L-cancelling is a skill that means that the new player cannot even touch the beginner who has 3 months of L-cancelling under his belt.

So part of me would prefer to not have it in the game..yet I wonder if even that is honest of me. I mean, even if they had perfect L-cancelling..isn't dashdancing so integral that the avg beginner's use of DD is so poor that they will get 4 stocked by me for the first 3 months anyways?

So in that respect one could argue that L-cancelling does little damage to the player base compared to the plethora of other skills that have to be learned. As such, you could say that L-cancelling is beneficial at the high levels of play to differentiate and is only slightly troublesome for the beginners.

 

[Pink Reaper]

I've been calling meta a scrub because he doesn't even acknowledge my argument, he just spouts the same exact **** he's been spouting for the entire thread. It's annoying. He also doesn't seem to understand the options l-canceling gives.

I can say the same thing about you and Banks >_> You keep stating that "L-Canceling gives options" but it doesn't. L-Canceling gives opportunities to punish when you're opponent makes a mistake, it gives zero options to the users themselves. I understand all the stuff you say down there VVVVVVV but it doesn't change the fact that the statement "L-Canceling gives options" is fundamentally false.

Pink Reaper, I can influence the timing of their landing so I can try to force mistakes. Spot dodging in an effort to make them miss an l-cancel is a lot like dashing in for an approach and WDing back to see if they'll whiff an attack. You're trying to coax them into making a mistake. That's a big part of smash, taking out l-canceling takes away lots of chances for them to make a mistake. If you don't see what I'm trying to say read the part of Wobble's post that I quoted, he does the same thing I do.

Once again, this really has nothing to do with L-Canceling, this has to do with you forcing your opponent to make a mistake, it just so happens the L-Canceling is the medium. Lets equate this to the statement

Spot dodging in an effort to make them miss an l-cancel is a lot like dashing in for an approach and WDing back to see if they'll whiff an attack.

The options here come from YOU wavedashing not your opponent attacking. In this example substitute "attacking" for L-canceling and "WDing" for spot dodging. The options didn't come from the attack, they came from your actions, your opponent screwing up is just the results of you choosing the correct option. Whatever they screw up, L-Canceling, attacking, rolling, etc. has nothing to do with it.

P.S. I would love to have Sext.

<3

I'd even say l-canceling adds to enjoyment of the game, but that's just personal preference. Watching a gymnast do flips and cartwheels on a balance beam is impressive, but if you make the balance beam 6 feet wide it's a lot less impressive. Why is that so? It's a lot harder to make a mistake, and nobody will break their face falling off the balance beam. Difficulty just makes things more impressive, but that brings me to my next point.

Adding difficulty for difficulty's sake is silly, but l-canceling is not only really easy most of the time, it also adds some depth to the game. Removing that depth just to make the game more noob friendly (I say noob friendly because everyone else already l-cancels about 90% of the time, so this would only save new players time) would be pointless. Saving some noobs 15 minutes isn't worth any loss of depth.

Keep in mind that I am not arguing that L-Canceling should be automatic(I really don't care to be honest) im just on the side that says L-Canceling doesn't add any options to the game. Yes it does add DEPTH(it's just one more thing you can try and make your opponent screw up) but there are no options to the technique, it's just "Do it or else"

 

[jugfingers]

You're right, ledge teching doesn't add any depth, however ledge teching != L-canceling. The recovery/edge guarding dynamic is something entirely different than L-canceling. Besides, Ledge Teching really ISN'T always the best option as characters like Ness and Bowser actually can't recover from a ledge tech so in their cases it's better to take the hit and use survival DI to attempt to recover.

every character can recover from teching...

Was there a street fighter: brawl?

****.





Metaxzero/Iceclimberhead


basically your argument and wobbles argument is that there is never a wrong time to l-cancel so making it automatic doesn't take any depth away from a theoretically perfect player and doesn't take any depth away from the thinking game, the metagame. which is true in a theoretically perfect player(although skler makes an excellent point on this in that no player can l-cancel perfectly all the time not even otto)

this would however cripple the athletic ability that it takes to play smash, there are other technical/athletic techniques of course but none as essential and integral to high level play as l-cancelling.


so basically this isn't a right or wrong debate its a debate of opinions in that Wobbles/pink reaper and metaxzero all want everyone to be able to perform theoretically at a perfect or near perfect state and let the winner be the one with superior mindgames.

whereas everyone else enjoys the athletic challenge and dexterity it takes to play this game at a highlevel.


Meta you keep bringing up the statement technical for the sake of being technical, this is like saying athletic for the sake of being athletic, or skilled for the sake of being skilled.

yea having athletic/technical ability is a part of the reason why people like playing this game.

you also keep saying that people from mid-highlevel of play all can l-cancel pretty much all the time. watch dashizwiz ****** highlevel marths simply because of superior athletic finger speed. its a physical aspect of the game that is not even between high level players. you keep stating that eveyone can l-cancel but what you don't understand and what I haven't seen brought up in this thread is that Not everyone can L-cancel at the same speed not everyone can jump/wavedash/dash out of cancelled lag into another shffl'd attack at the same speed and as this technique is multiplied l-cancelling becomes more difficult to perform quickly. bombsoldier is another good example of a player who can destroy highlevel(so called perfect l-cancelling players) simply because he has more athletic ability in terms of finger movement,


the type of game your advocating is for unathletic players, like yourself
which is legitimate in that you want to play a thinking game rather than being defeated by pure athletic ability but this is just taking the athletic depth out of the game and is providing a handicap for those who cannot compete physically.


melee is not just a thinking game it is incredibly physically as well and manual l-cancelling is just destroying this aspect.




also lol at metaXzero who obvious can't l-cancel very well.

 

[BrawlLover]

the fact that melee is still fast, you can dash dance, and waveland, moving around makes it fun

 

[Wind Owl]

First time I've seen tech skill referred to as 'athletic ability.' Interesting.

 

[BrawlLover]

it's athletic on the tv screen

 

[Wind Owl]

You're athletic on the TV screen.

 

[jugfingers]

technicalsmashers/technical pianists=small muscle athletes

 

[Pink Reaper]

every character can recover from teching...

Ledge Teching >_>

I'll ignore the obvious Yoshi and go straight for the two I mentioned. Ness can't recover from a Ledge Tech. Ever. If it's a ledge tech jump he has a small chance to recover if his opponent chooses to stand still and not do anything while he PKT himself. Bowser can't recover from a ledge tech jump. His momentum will actually carry him away from the ledge while using his Up B. He can recover from a ledge tech if he up b's instantly but even then he wont be able to sweet spot so he's just a giant spinning target. There's others, like Doc who get screwed if they ledge tech jump or Zelda/Mewtwo who have trouble if they don't. In some of these cases it really is better to take the hit and use survival DI unless you literally CAN'T survive being hit again.

 

[jugfingers]

Ledge Teching >_>

I'll ignore the obvious Yoshi and go straight for the two I mentioned. Ness can't recover from a Ledge Tech. Ever. If it's a ledge tech jump he has a small chance to recover if his opponent chooses to stand still and not do anything while he PKT himself. Bowser can't recover from a ledge tech jump. His momentum will actually carry him away from the ledge while using his Up B. He can recover from a ledge tech if he up b's instantly but even then he wont be able to sweet spot so he's just a giant spinning target. There's others, like Doc who get screwed if they ledge tech jump or Zelda/Mewtwo who have trouble if they don't. In some of these cases it really is better to take the hit and use survival DI unless you literally CAN'T survive being hit again.

I meant ledge techning, wtf at ness can easily recover from ledgetechjumps, and he can recover from regledgetechs o if you aim his pkthunder correctly, and on final D he can easily use the curve to recover from regledgetechs. bowser can't recover from ledgetechjumps cause of momentum but he can still upb from reg ledgetechs. maybe not as well as some chars but he can still do it.


lots of chars can get screwed if they ledgetechjump and others can get screwed if they just reg ledgetech, but they can all use one or the other to survive.


yoshi can ledgtech jump and then airdodge onto a cloud on his homestage.(but yea ok ill give you yoshi)

 

[BrawlLover]

ledge teching is crucial, but making your opponent miss again is the utmost crucial

 

[Pink Reaper]

I meant ledge techning, wtf at ness can easily recover from ledgetechjumps, and he can recover from regledgetechs o if you aim his pkthunder correctly, and on final D he can easily use the curve to recover from regledgetechs. bowser can't recover from ledgetechjumps cause of momentum but he can still upb from reg ledgetechs. maybe not as well as some chars but he can still do it.


lots of chars can get screwed if they ledgetechjump and others can get screwed if they just reg ledgetech, but they can all use one or the other to survive.


yoshi can ledgtech jump and then airdodge onto a cloud on his homestage.(but yea ok ill give you yoshi)

OPTIONS!

Which is why Recovering != L-Canceling

And once again, I acknowledge that these characters CAN survive from ledge teching but it's not always their best option. When ness is that close to the ledge very few characters CAN'T edge guard him. Bowser has to be perfect to survive the tech, etc. Options. That is what im arguing.

Lol Yoshi.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Having more necessary inputs to a certain extent makes the game better. The closer to the peak of human capability the better, in this case. No L-Canceling would make the game boring.

 

[jugfingers]

oh I wasn't saying l-cancelling is ledgeteching, read my post above to see my view on this debate.

I was just saying that all characters can ledgtech to recover, just cause I wanted to point that out. and ness can have some pretty sick ledgetech recoveries.

 

[jugfingers]

Having more necessary inputs to a certain extent makes the game better. The closer to the peak of human capability the better, in this case. No L-Canceling would make the game boring.

haha I was waiting for you to post in this thread.



I doubt you'll see many spaceanimal mains for auto l-canceling lol

 

[metaXzero]

every character can recover from teching...




****.





Metaxzero/Iceclimberhead


basically your argument and wobbles argument is that there is never a wrong time to l-cancel so making it automatic doesn't take any depth away from a theoretically perfect player and doesn't take any depth away from the thinking game, the metagame. which is true in a theoretically perfect player(although skler makes an excellent point on this in that no player can l-cancel perfectly all the time not even otto)

this would however cripple the athletic ability that it takes to play smash, there are other technical/athletic techniques of course but none as essential and integral to high level play as l-cancelling.


so basically this isn't a right or wrong debate its a debate of opinions in that Wobbles/pink reaper and metaxzero all want everyone to be able to perform theoretically at a perfect or near perfect state and let the winner be the one with superior mindgames.

whereas everyone else enjoys the athletic challenge and dexterity it takes to play this game at a highlevel.


Meta you keep bringing up the statement technical for the sake of being technical, this is like saying athletic for the sake of being athletic, or skilled for the sake of being skilled.

yea having athletic/technical ability is a part of the reason why people like playing this game.

you also keep saying that people from mid-highlevel of play all can l-cancel pretty much all the time. watch dashizwiz ****** highlevel marths simply because of superior athletic finger speed. its a physical aspect of the game that is not even between high level players. you keep stating that eveyone can l-cancel but what you don't understand and what I haven't seen brought up in this thread is that Not everyone can L-cancel at the same speed not everyone can jump/wavedash/dash out of cancelled lag into another shffl'd attack at the same speed and as this technique is multiplied l-cancelling becomes more difficult to perform quickly. bombsoldier is another good example of a player who can destroy highlevel(so called perfect l-cancelling players) simply because he has more athletic ability in terms of finger movement,


the type of game your advocating is for unathletic players, like yourself
which is legitimate in that you want to play a thinking game rather than being defeated by pure athletic ability but this is just taking the athletic depth out of the game and is providing a handicap for those who cannot compete physically.


melee is not just a thinking game it is incredibly physically as well and manual l-cancelling is just destroying this aspect.




also lol at metaXzero who obvious can't l-cancel very well.

iceclimberhead? -_T

You don't have to be perfect to L-cancel your aerials at every crucial moment. It's one button press at a specific time.

When you take into account the other ATs of Melee, no you are not crippling the atheletic ability required to play Melee. Fox/Falco still require speed of fingers to play effienciently.

With manual or Auto L-cancel, DaShiz would still **** in the same way he does now. All high level players will.

If all that made Melee technical was L-canceling, then Melee would barely be technical at all.

And I can too L-cancel consistently >

I'm just thinking of those new to Melee who have to deal with the barrier of L-canceling before they deal with the TRUE nature of what seperates players.

 

[metaXzero]

DP

Having more necessary inputs to a certain extent makes the game better. The closer to the peak of human capability the better, in this case. No L-Canceling would make the game boring.

The options from it are still there (it would be auto). And their are still other technical things (DI, CC, WD, JCing) to work with (and Fox is still demanding at high levels of play).

You would seriously get bored with Melee faster because you didn't have to press L/R whenever you land?

 

[Silent Wolf]

A lot more bored than I'd be with it in there.

 

[Skler]

Meta, would you remove depth (it doesn't matter how much, this is yes or no) from a game just to make it so people don't need to hit a button before landing after they do an aerial? That's what it all comes down to.

I agree with SW, it isn't as exciting if they don't need to constantly be perfect. People being really good at something is exciting.

OH BOY. LOL @ not saying you have to be perfect to l-cancel at every crucial moment. If it's so ****ing easy to do why do you complain about it? It's hard to l-cancel all the time in a finals match. It's hard to do when there's a crowd behind you and money's on the line. Everything becomes hard to do at that point, and l-canceling then just shows how amazing you are at the game. It shows that in addition to everything going on you can still time a button press 7/60ths of a second before you land every time.

As a spectator I'd rather watch two people have to do something intense where every attack gives them a chance to make a mistake, forcing them to play perfectly. Would you rather watch two players, with good spacing and all that jazz but none of the "if they miss this press they might just lose the game" feeling? Watching finals is intense because of that ****, that's why nobody cares about the finals of Brawl matches. It's boring and easy to predict who will win. In Melee things can turn at the push of a button (or the lack of that push).

This is, again, personal preference, but danger = excitement most of the time. It's so much more exciting to watch Melee than a game that doesn't force you to be perfect, removing l-canceling removes the need to be as perfect. God **** Melee is amazing. Good **** Melee.