Melee community: would you have REALLY cared if L-canceling was automatic?

[Discolicious]

Banks you're missing the point. L-canceling isn't really a "Technique" or a "Skill" it's more a "Do this or else" kind of thing. There is never a reason NOT to L-Cancel, there is never a time when you can chose not to do it and have a better outcome than when you would. This isn't comparable to something like Waveshining because waveshining is an actual technique, one you can chose not to do at given times to get different, sometimes more desirable outcome. With L-Canceling isn't a choice or a skill or a technique, it's just something you HAVE to do. It's like saying Jumping is a technique or Recovering is a technique. They aren't. You must jump, you must recover and you must L-cancel. It's not a choice.

Alright so lets make recovering automatic...you automatically get to come back on the stage...good analogy...

 

[Skler]

Banks. You don't play Melee hoping for your opponent to miss an L-cancel at a crucial moment. If it happens, you punish them of course, but you don't bank your chances of winning on your opponent missing L-cancels. That's dumb like trying to bank your chances of winning a Brawl match with tripping (though not quite).

Since this appears to be your only argument let me tell you something.

I play hoping that my opponent will miss an l-cancel because of something I do. Allow me to explain why this is in words anyone can understand.

Hello, my name is Skler and I happen to play Link in Super Smash Brothers Melee. Link is really ****ing slow, so his defensive options are also pretty slow. If a Fox jumps at me with a drill I might just shield it and see if he l-cancels. Usually they do because they expect the shield and then they shine and go for more shield pressure. This time I decide to spot dodge whatever move they throw out which messes up the amount of time they spend in the air, making them reach the ground faster than usual and throwing off their l-cancel timing. Yes, I do play this way (obviously not all the time, it's just one option).

What would I do if they can't miss l-cancels and hit my shield? I'd have to roll. I'd have to roll every single time a Fox or Falco touched my shield. Why would you want to take away options?

Melee is good because of all the options, options are what make fighting games good in general. If you take out l-canceling you remove some of Melee's options, not offensive options (since you do always want to l-cancel), but defensive options. Those options give the game depth. If you take out l-canceling you take away some of Melee's depth. That can't be denied, you either want depth or you don't.

 

[metaXzero]

so your saying if something isn't hard to do, but has value then it shouldn't be in the game and should be automatic? let's make it so you have to input a 27 button code to l-cancel! people mess up lcancels, it makes many technical combos from fox and falco, and every character challenging to perform perfectly each time under pressure. you sound like sakurai, suggesting we make it so everyone can do everything so they can win and feel fuzzy inside.

regarding your post about banking on it, actually playing vs fox and falco I DO watch for that, i've played PC CHRIS and gotten grabs off his missed lcancels, it is crucial that they lcancel, taking it out makes their approach so much easier to be a ***got about. its the way u sheild, how high they jump, it happens, people like silent wolf etc maybe miss them NEVER but EVERYONE else isn't perfect about that

pink reaper - yea it's required but who cares, it's another way for a worse player to mess up and for a better player to be efficient. having technical talent isn't a bad thing. taking it out makes playing good an easier thing to do.

it's like playing an instrument, taking strings off a guitar and putting a cd player on it doesn't help anyone except people who suck at guitar. guitar players strive to be technical.

What value? You press a button to get something with no negatives to it. It's technical for the sake of being technical. It only seperates those who can from those unaccustomed to it.

These were recent? These matches of PC Chris consistently missing L-cancels. Were these tourny matches or friendlies?

Skler: And when they do predict the side step (or simply just stay consistent with their timing regardless of your response), they will L-cancel and you will STILL have to roll.

Yes, by making L-cancel auto, you lose the CHANCE that your opponent will miss their L-cancel. But that rarely happens anyway with experienced opponents so why does it matter?

 

[th0rn]

Alright so lets make recovering automatic...you automatically get to come back on the stage...good analogy...

Yeah because making recovering automatic , you can then focus more on spacing and strats!!!!

Can we make ledge teching when i'm recovering automatic too! No one messes that up either mirite? All you do is press L... it's one button dur DUR dur DURRRRR

/wobbleslogic

 

[DTKPch]

says you, but it's quite related in some ways and you can see from the discussions above, its involvement between the games are quite apparent

In math speak, we use "it's quite apparent" or "it clearly follows that..." when we don't know the reason for a certain step in a proof.

So it's involvement is "quite apparent," which you've definitely cited as the "discussions above."

Thanks for being so darn specific.

 

[Banks]

Are you dense man? You're telling me that no one misses l-cancels? I never said he consistently missed them and yes they were recent enough, but that is IRRELEVANT because if I played ANYONE they would mess up, because you can powersehild down airs, you can air dodge, you can EXPECT people to miss them when they are going at you from an awkward position, or if they bust out a short hop dair after being sheild pressured themselves. If they DO get the lcancel every ****ing time I EVER tried to grab or do anything I'd be like HEY THIS GUY IS ****ING GOOD i wouldn't say EVERYONE SHOULD BE DO DAT AUTO, EVERYBUDDY CAN DO DAT

I could go play a ****load of falcos/foxes and I guarantte I would grab them a bunch of times when they try to pressure my sheild aggressively. do you think it is easy to pillar waveshine a sheild and not ever get hit? who do you play with who does this and never messes up? must be one of like 3 famous people who are technical beasts, because 90% of people you meet in tournament matches are not like this.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Alright so lets make recovering automatic...you automatically get to come back on the stage...good analogy...

Shut the **** up and go the **** away. You've already proven that you lack the ability to comprehend anything going on in this thread so Im not going to bother to point out how ******** your statement is or how you're putting words in my mouth. Just **** off.

Edit: Skler I love you, you know I do, but stop being lame. Yes, your opponent missing an L-cancel is good for you just like missing an L-cancel is good for your opponent but lets be honest, L-canceling does not add depth to Melee. Once again, it doesn't add any options for YOU it only adds a psuedo-option for your opponent in that they can hope you miss an L-cancel in a way that they can punish.

Edit Edit: Get on AIM so we can have Text Sex(Sext?)

 

[Banks]

L-Cancelling makes it take timing and precision and technical ability to do things that would otherwise be easy as pie. how is that not depth.....just because metaX thinks everyone can do it perfectly?

 

[Discolicious]

Sorry I guess I didn't understand the very complicated topic and sorry I paraphrased your post making you look stupid ...sleep time

 

[metaXzero]

Are you dense man? You're telling me that no one misses l-cancels? I never said he consistently missed them and yes they were recent enough, but that is IRRELEVANT because if I played ANYONE they would mess up, because you can powersehild down airs, you can air dodge, you can EXPECT people to miss them when they are going at you from an awkward position, or if they bust out a short hop dair after being sheild pressured themselves. If they DO get the lcancel every ****ing time I EVER tried to grab or do anything I'd be like HEY THIS GUY IS ****ING GOOD i wouldn't say EVERYONE SHOULD BE DO DAT AUTO, EVERYBUDDY CAN DO DAT

I could go play a ****load of falcos/foxes and I guarantte I would grab them a bunch of times when they try to pressure my sheild aggressively. do you think it is easy to pillar waveshine a sheild and not ever get hit? who do you play with who does this and never messes up? must be one of like 3 famous people who are technical beasts, because 90% of people you meet in tournament matches are not like this.

I'm saying no one accustomed to L-canceling messes up their L-cancels enough for it to cost them a match. Most dwcent players are not going to mess up their L-cancels when they use an aerial at a crucial moment.

I asked those things about PC Chris because maybe he was having a bad day, wasn't trying his hardest, or just abnormally struggles with L-canceling...

So basically what you are saying is even Top level players will constantly F up their L-cancels through out matches and lose.

.........-______- That doesn't even sound right.

 

[Pink Reaper]

L-Cancelling makes it take timing and precision and technical ability to do things that would otherwise be easy as pie. how is that not depth.....just because metaX thinks everyone can do it perfectly?

Yes but auto L-canceling wouldn't take away any options, it would just make things easier to do, which is what you seem to be opposed to. As it is most players at this point have gotten skilled enough at L-canceling to the point where you don't miss one during a combo just because you know what you're doing. A falcon Nair->Uair->Knee is rarely going to fail do to the falcon not L-canceling the move. Misses really only occur during shield hits and such when the opponent uses Light/Full shield properly to alter hitlag on the shield(Or when using Mario/Doc's Dair. **** I can never seem to L-Cancel that properly )

 

[th0rn]

By your logic ledge teching should be automatic too? There's no reason to not tech when getting edgeguarded, its a "do or die".... By your reasoning, ledge teching also adds no depth. So we should make this automatic as well?

 

[Pink Reaper]

By your logic Ledge teching should be automatic too? There's no reason to not tech when getting edgeguarded.... By your reasoning, ledge teching also adds no depth. So we should make this automatic as well?

You're right, ledge teching doesn't add any depth, however ledge teching != L-canceling. The recovery/edge guarding dynamic is something entirely different than L-canceling. Besides, Ledge Teching really ISN'T always the best option as characters like Ness and Bowser actually can't recover from a ledge tech so in their cases it's better to take the hit and use survival DI to attempt to recover.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

ness can recover from a ledge tech

 

[Magus420]

Since when is ledge teching an independent game mechanic? That's not a great example.

 

[Blackshadow]

I come into this thread, and from reading the title, it LOOKS to be an opinion thread, yet looking through a few pages (and the latest edit to the OP) you guys are making it out that one opinion has to be WRONG and the other has to be RIGHT. Disregarding the fact you can't prove an opinion wrong anyway, what's the point of debating whether manual or auto l-cancelling would be better in a MELEE forum? It's not like Melee is being hacked as we speak, and the result of this thread's "debate" will end up being implemented, that's the case for BRAWL+. Not Melee. Take this **** back to the Brawl forums.

So, tl;dr, this has just devolved into spam, if anything. There's no point to this thread's existence.

 

[Weimdog]

This debate looks like a blast, I think I'll join for a post.
Before I do; Thank you metaXzero for the good topic

You press a button. That's it. The work comes from reading your opponents DI, NOT pressing a button.

A fox is recovering from offstage, versus a Marth on stage. The Marth stands on stage, patiently waiting for the firefox. Fox's Up-B ends well high of the ledge, and still a little away from the stage. The Marth begins charging a forward smash to end the stock.

**
At this point: Fox is pretty screwed, no? I love this part of the game. Marth is about to be rewarded for his smart play to get fox off stage! All marth has to do is release his forward smash at the right time, and fox dies, game over. Marth doesn't even have to push a button at this point, just release A -- and fox's more or less unalterable path downward is so easy to predict, too...
**

Has this been practiced? You bet. Easy to hit? Yup. Any reason to miss intentionally? No.
Yet thankfully it's not automatic. It's a moment like this, where even the best Marth player in the world can choke, and a slight mis-timing makes the Marth miss.

** Not only does the Marth miss, the fox makes it to the ledge with his one stock, and wins the match. Poor Ken

I feel the example here and L-canceling are comparable. I also feel that F-smashing fox at the ledge AND L-cancelling should not be automatic.
Please let me know what you feel about this metaXzero.

 

[Wind Owl]

Ignore this.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I haven't read the entire thread, but I see that lots of people are using the argument that certain things that are very good would be to easy to perform. It's not comparable to things like sweetspotting , b/c sweetspotting is more then just pressing a button. Also, auto-sweetspotting completely changes around the options that you have (which auto-lcanceling wouldn't), since an opponent who can see that you're going for the sweetspot can just edgehog you.

It isn't comparable to powershielding either. b/c it's so hard to do that doing something else (like normal shielding) to avoid the risk of messing it up is often preferable.
Also, powershielding does have a disadvantage to normal shielding: more shield-knockback, which can push you out of shieldgrab range. So if you're going for a shield-grab doing a normal shield is just plain better.
Here you have 2 options, one that is usually better: powershielding (if your char has a good close range attack that is faster then his grab). And one that is MUCH easier to do and almost as good: normal shielding. But the advantage of powershielding isn't huge and it's very hard to do. You take a big risk to gain a small advantage in close range combat (powershielding) or you can make a safe choice that is almost as good and very easy to do (normal shielding). This makes powershielding a much less viable option. You have a CHOICE.
This does not exist when it comes to L-canceling. You L-cancel or you miss the L-cancel, end of story. You wouldn't choose to not L-cancel in any situation b/c it is safer. L canceling is always the best option.

Anyway, I wouldn't mind if noobs could shffl. if you're good enough you can win anyway, you just need to play smarter. And playing smart is what all competitive games SHOULD be about. What's the fun in winning just because your opponent kept messing up his l cancels? He's practically giving you the win! You don't even have to unsmart him. That's boring.

Also, I don't really agree that it would take away a large aspect of technical skill from the game.
I'll use drillshining as an example:
L canceling is prolly the easiest technical thing you have to worry about with when drillshining. Timing the jump cancel of the shine is much harder (not to fast or nothing will happen b/c of the hitlag, not to slow b/c then it won't combo) and doing the dair early enough in the jump are the hardest technical parts. Except for the spacing off course, which is by far the hardest part of drillshing (especially if your opponent has unpredictable DI)

SSB64 was competetive because it was all about avoiding the 0-death combos. Although it was easily possible to mess up these combos, SSB64 defined the smash bros series as being competetive because of l-canceling. There was no airdodging or anything, and these combos literally separated Isai from the pros, and the pros from everyone else.

This is not true, at all. I can and have pulled off many of the combos that Isai does in SSB64 but I'm not even close to his skill. I'm convinced that he's 5-stock me if we ever played (even if my combo/tech skill was equal to his, which it isn't, it sucks compared to his)
Also, L canceling in SSB64 is very easy (easier then in melee, you can just mash Z if you want and you'll l cancel everything) and NOT what makes those combos hard at all. I can't beleive you think that >.> What kind of combos are you doing if L-canceling is the hardest part of them? lol

It's not difficult. It's barely technical. Really, it's technical for the sake of being technical (which is dumb).

QFT.

 

[Magus420]

*snip*

Marth-hitting-Fox-out-of-his-Up-B-with-a-charged-F-Smash-when-Fox-is-on-his-last-stock is also not a game mechanic. >_>

 

[Zjiin]

You think that missing an l-cancel can't cost you a stock?

This.

I come into this thread, and from reading the title, it LOOKS to be an opinion thread, yet looking through a few pages (and the latest edit to the OP) you guys are making it out that one opinion has to be WRONG and the other has to be RIGHT. Disregarding the fact you can't prove an opinion wrong anyway, what's the point of debating whether manual or auto l-cancelling would be better in a MELEE forum? It's not like Melee is being hacked as we speak, and the result of this thread's "debate" will end up being implemented, that's the case for BRAWL+. Not Melee. Take this **** back to the Brawl forums.

So, tl;dr, this has just devolved into spam, if anything. There's no point to this thread's existence.

I was just going to reply with a similar post. This has turned into more of a "defend why L-canceling should be manual or else you lose" thread then an actual debate.

Overall, people, even highest level compition players, miss l-cancels, so it does matter. No one is looking for someone to miss one, but if they do, you should be instinctive enough to be able to punish it. Instinct that wouldn't exist if it weren't for small argurably-essential techs like l-cancelling.

It's a bit of an extreme, but i'd go as far to say that in a highly competitve game, every advantage you give to yourself should require some kind of skill/timing/precision in order to accomplish. Not to bring in brawl into this (because i think this thread would be more interesting without the mention of it) but they went the opposite way, even as far as just holding down buttons for jabbing and auto sweet spotting.

No one likes playing a game at a high level of play if it's easy to pick up. (unless you're a brawl player "oooohh dayyyumn!")

 

[ZeroFrames]

Why should someone who doesnt play competive be as fast as someone who plays competive?

Or:

Why should someone who Plays Brawl without AdvancedTechs be as fast in his Gameplay as Someone who plays Brawl with ATs?

There isnt Much to say...

L-Cancle (with Pressing Buttons) differentiated Pros from N00bs
no Pro will be slower in his Gameplay than a Noob.

 

[Blea Gelo]

this is pretty imporntant... remember that while more bottons u press in a second, its harder to think and control mentally the game.. so yea, l-cancel its somethinkg melee can lose..

 

[Skler]

Edit: Skler I love you, you know I do, but stop being lame. Yes, your opponent missing an L-cancel is good for you just like missing an L-cancel is good for your opponent but lets be honest, L-canceling does not add depth to Melee. Once again, it doesn't add any options for YOU it only adds a psuedo-option for your opponent in that they can hope you miss an L-cancel in a way that they can punish.

It adds the option of me trying to make them miss the l-cancel. You of all people should appreciate that, if Fox and Falco couldn't miss l-cancels I would be forced to roll out of my shield every single time they touched it because there would be no way for them to make a mistake. Think of how gay the game would be if Fox and Falco forced every character to roll out of their shield. Low tiers would get even more ****ed up than usual. Half the reason Fox and Falco are so **** hard to play as is the tech skill you need since each missed l-cancel can potentially lose you a stock. It would be absolutely ******** to take away that barrier.

I'd have no reason to try and spotdodge space animal approaches because there would be no way for them to mess up. Might as well not even shield in those matchups since they can never make a mistake serious enough for a slow character to punish.

LOL@ meta getting what Banks said completely wrong. Banks said that PC misses l-cancels that let people punish him. He obviously doesn't miss a lot, but he still misses them occasionally. One mistake like that coming from him can make him lose the stock. If you take away the l-cancels and you make the offensive side of smash (mainly the space animal offensive side) broken as ****. Aggressive players had to deal with missing l-cancels because it's technically demanding to play aggressively, removing l-cancels makes it so much easier to play aggressively that you will never be able to punish shield pressure unless that space animal forgets to shine or doesn't know how to JC.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Most chars (not link ) can shieldgrab a pillaring falco/fox (even if it's done frame perfect) iirc. I remember reading that in a thread by scotu where he posted frame-data about everything. It just requires very good timing.

 

[Skler]

Not Fox, Fox can start his drill as soon as he gets into the air and it won't end until he touches the ground. It's possible against Falco, but who pillars the front of shields?

The point is moot anyways, you remove a defensive option when you remove L-canceling (trying to force a missed l-cancel is an option because it is entirely possible to change the air time of the other character). That's one option too many to remove.

 

[ridikulus]

SKLER WINS THREAD
close nao plz? o.o

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

No I'm pretty sure you can shieldgrab fox's aswell. His dair has very little shielhitstun. I could look up the thread if you want me to.
I'm not trying to disprove you of your point btw

 

[metaXzero]

Not Fox, Fox can start his drill as soon as he gets into the air and it won't end until he touches the ground. It's possible against Falco, but who pillars the front of shields?

The point is moot anyways, you remove a defensive option when you remove L-canceling (trying to force a missed l-cancel is an option because it is entirely possible to change the air time of the other character). That's one option too many to remove.

If your opponents are missing L-cancels to the point of it being a consistent option against them, then that says something about your opponents.

Yes, people miss L-cancels, but if they consistently miss it like the Foxs/Falcos you are referring, it shows your opponent is still not accustomed to L-canceling consistently.

 

[th0rn]

LOL @ all these horrible scrubs arguing for videogames to be just about playing "smart". What happened to individual skill and natural talent at videogames to be a "pro gamer". You're taking out everything so bad kids at videogames (like brawl kids) can try to be on the same "mental" level because they have no technical videogame skills (like brawl)??

I'm sorry, but if pressing an L button is too hard for you, or you don't feel like taking the time to learn the techs for a game, then I think you're a bad scrub who should go play chess, and quit videogames.

If you made halo or gears of war auto aim, because you're too lazy and have no skill to aim (every top level player can AIM just about perfect right, just the bad kids who cant) That way you can practice different positioning, teamwork, outsmarting, and map strats ...gtfo you dumb scrubby noob.

If your opponents are missing L-cancels to the point of it being a consistent option against them, then that says something about your opponents.

Yes, people miss L-cancels, but if they consistently miss it like the Foxs/Falcos you are referring, it shows your opponent is still not accustomed to L-canceling consistently.

Exactly his point, his opponent having horrible videogame tech skill makes skler a better player because of it. His opponents shouldn't suck so much at videogames and get better l-canceling.

 

[Eggm]

The only person I've seen consistently grab a foxes down air to shine is vidjo. NO ONE else I've seen can do that consistently. Anyways, I agree with everything skler has said, and I think that overall it removes depth and skill.

 

[Cam3ron]

Makes it easier for newcomers to get into it i guess, but i also like the feeling that ive practiced hard for something and have mastered it.

 

[metaXzero]

LOL @ all these horrible scrubs arguing for videogames to be just about playing "smart". What happened to individual skill and natural talent at videogames to be a "pro gamer". You're taking out everything so bad kids at videogames (like brawl kids) can try to be on the same "mental" level because they have no technical videogame skills (like brawl)??

I'm sorry, but if pressing an L button is too hard for you, or you don't feel like taking the time to learn the techs for a game, then I think you're a bad scrub who should go play chess, and quit videogames.

If you made halo or gears of war auto aim, because you're too lazy and have no skill to aim (every top level player can AIM just about perfect right, just the bad kids who cant) That way you can practice different positioning, teamwork, and map strats ...gtfo you dumb scrubby noob.



Exactly his point, his opponent having horrible videogame tech skill makes skler a better player because of it. He shouldn't suck so much at videogames and get better l-canceling.

I thought the OTHER techs for Melee (DI, Crouch Canceling, Wavedash, etc.) were for that?

So you are saying that bad players will be able to good ones just because they don't need to press ONE BUTTON? I didn't know mindgames and utilizing and your options and other techs were so useless.....

You know you are saying that players in Skler's area are really bad right?

 

[Skler]

If your opponents are missing L-cancels to the point of it being a consistent option against them, then that says something about your opponents.

Yes, people miss L-cancels, but if they consistently miss it like the Foxs/Falcos you are referring, it shows your opponent is still not accustomed to L-canceling consistently.

Nobody L-cancels 100% of the time. It isn't like I go into a match and say "every time they pressure my shield I'm going to make them miss the l-cancel", I go into matches knowing I have more options than just rolling. You always have the option of changing the timing for their l-cancel, just because I choose to try it doesn't mean it will make them mess up. Removing l-canceling = removing that option. An option is always an option whether it works or not.

If you're too much of a scrub to understand that you should just stop arguing.

 

[Banks]

Do you know how many times in one game someone needs to l-cancel? the chances that someone would miss a couple aren't OUT OF THIS WORLD especially if they play fox or falco and are intermediate level players. no one said anyone misses it consistently or constantly, or enough to be the reason they lose, but maybe it's the reason they got a 50%, or a 20% combo on them...maybe you were pressuring them and they missed it trying to play too fast. They players in "skler's area" are just as good good as the players in every area. No one is saying top level players miss l-cancels constantly or that it's the reason they lose anything, just that it happens to everyone and the argument that everyone can do it so it should be automatic is dumb, because it does take timing however easy it might become to people.

 

[ridikulus]

meta i think your a scrub now for even questioning the depth lcancelling gives melee.
without lcancelling a large part of technical AND the mental game would go to a lower standard.
gotobawrlruumnaokplzthnzx

 

[BrawlLover]

The only person I've seen consistently grab a foxes down air to shine is vidjo. NO ONE else I've seen can do that consistently. Anyways, I agree with everything skler has said, and I think that overall it removes depth and skill.

what do you mean timmy? like he can just grab you everytime? how is that possible?

 

[th0rn]

Lower level playes miss l-canceling a lot and they get *****. Go practice and stop being bad. Why should they get a pass... because they are like brawl players who have no videogame talent? looool

 

[metaXzero]

Nobody L-cancels 100% of the time. It isn't like I go into a match and say "every time they pressure my shield I'm going to make them miss the l-cancel", I go into matches knowing I have more options than just rolling. You always have the option of changing the timing for their l-cancel, just because I choose to try it doesn't mean it will make them mess up. Removing l-canceling = removing that option. An option is always an option whether it works or not.

If you're too much of a scrub to understand that you should just stop arguing.

If it's a consistent option, then your opponents aren't good at L-canceling. If it's an every blue moon type of option (like your opponent tripping into your attack in Brawl), then why should it matter if those small moments are gone?

I

Do you know how many times in one game someone needs to l-cancel? the chances that someone would miss a couple aren't OUT OF THIS WORLD especially if they play fox or falco and are intermediate level players. no one said anyone misses it consistently or constantly, or enough to be the reason they lose, but maybe it's the reason they got a 50%, or a 20% combo on them...maybe you were pressuring them and they missed it trying to play too fast. They players in "skler's area" are just as good good as the players in every area. No one is saying top level players miss l-cancels constantly or that it's the reason they lose anything, just that it happens to everyone and the argument that everyone can do it so it should be automatic is dumb, because it does take timing however easy it might become to people.

See above.

If the argument for manual L-canceling was just preference, I'd have no reason to debate it. But when it's claimed to be better because you press a button, then I feel the need to argue it...

 

[Banks]

K i'm done with this thread i'll just talk to skler, th0rn and eggm about how awesome l-cancelling is

you aren't really arguing effectively imo, guess we need wobbles in here again LOL