Melee community: would you have REALLY cared if L-canceling was automatic?

[metaXzero]

Lower level playes miss l-canceling a lot and they get *****. Go practice and stop being bad. Why should they get a pass... because they are like brawl players who have no videogame talent? looool

AGAIN, L-canceling seperates those who can L-cancel consistently from those who can't (usually due to being new to it). It DOES NOT seperate good players from bad ones at mid-to-high level play since both will L-cancel consistently.

And why do you keep bringing up Brawl?

 

[th0rn]

metaXzero is horrible at debating because he doesn't even take what people say and argue it, he just makes up claims no one said. He obviously has no clue as to what he's talking about.

If you're too much of a scrub to understand that you should just stop arguing.

QFT

 

[metaXzero]

th0rn. You're trolling now. Just leave...

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I don't understand why people are calling Meta a scrub. Nothing he has said has been scrubby, or has in any way shown a scrubby mindset. Seriously, that word has lost it's definition >.> It's just stupid name-calling. Stop.
Let's not forget that Wobbles has basically the same opinion as meta in this debate. So if you're calling meta a scrub for his opinion, you're also calling wobbles a scrub. >.> And calling wobbles a scrub is pretty much impossible. He's even against the banishment of WOBBLING! That's as far from a scrub as you can get.

I'm not gonna argue in this thread anymore with anyone since I've already expressed my point of view but I have a question for the "pressing L gives melee depth" people:
Does the requirement of Jump Canceling your grabs (with most chars) add extra depth to the game because it is possible to mess up? (If you do mess that up you could actually die. imagine if you're fox and time it to late, so you fulljump a fair off the stage. Now it's easy edgeguard mode for your opponent)

 

[ZeroFrames]

Originally Posted by ZeroFrames
Say what you want,
the Mainstream will choose if Brawl+ will have Manual or Auto LC

and there are really really good arguments for Manual!

You hear it over and over again in all Smashboards:
"Brawl is as Technical as brushing teeths"

Do you really believe that any option, which makes the game more Technical will be ignored for a "new" Brawl? ^^

The argument for Manual has basically become "we want a press a button"

Brawl+ is about adding options and depth (Technical or otherwise). Manual-L-cancel doesn't add anything substantial that Brawl+ doesn't already add.

I wonder why you still argue ^^

There is more than "Pressing a Button"
you have to Manage the Time WHEN you pressing the Button
incluse the Hit-Frames which makes it more difficult to time this Button
(short: a none-hitted-Airial is a bit different to L-Cancle than a hitted-Airial in form of Timing)

OffTopic Question to metaXzero:

How long did you play Melee Compettive?

 

[th0rn]

th0rn. You're trolling now. Just leave...

You're not listening to any logic and you just repeat yourself like a robot when it doesn't even make sense to their arguement.

 

[metaXzero]

I wonder why you still argue ^^

There is more than "Pressing a Button"
you have to Manage the Time WHEN you pressing the Button
incluse the Hit-Frames which makes it more difficult to time this Button
(short: a none-hitted-Airial is a bit different to L-Cancle than a hitted-Airial in form of Timing)

OffTopic Question to metaXzero:

How long did you play Melee Compettive?

It's still just pressing a button at the right moment. If people just say they prefer to press a button, then I have nothing to argue with them over. But when they say Manual beats auto because of "depth", "seperating good players from bad", and stuff like that, then I'll argue.

Did? I still do (or I plan to whenever I am able to enter a tourny)

EDIT: Th0rn. BECAUSE I hear the same thing repeated about "depth" (it adds none really), "seperating good players from bad" (actually only seperates those accustomed to it from those who aren't), and "they can miss an L-cancel" (Irrelevant when they rarely do). If I just heard "I prefer it that way", I can't argue anything. Really, that was the original point of this thread (sort of).

 

[Discolicious]

So what's ONE BUTTON as meta says...
So we take out l-canceling make it automatic...
Ok well i guess theres no reason sweetspot ledging shouldn't be automatic so put that in too...
Wavedashing wellll that kind of "seperates those who can wavedash consistently from those who can't" so lets take that out too...
*Continuing to take out small things that seperate good players from bad players*

POOF you have brawl!

 

[BrawlLover]

th0rn. You're trolling now. Just leave...

it's people that post like you that need to leave, just leave...

 

[metaXzero]

So what's ONE BUTTON as meta says...
So we take out l-canceling make it automatic...
Ok well i guess theres no reason sweetspot ledging shouldn't be automatic so put that in too...
Wavedashing wellll that kind of "seperates those who can wavedash consistently from those who can't" so lets take that out too...
*Continuing to take out small things that seperate good players from bad players*

POOF you have brawl!

You don't always want to sweetspot, you don't always want to wavedash, and L-cancel DOES NOT seperate good and bad players (only the accustomed to the non-accustomed). That comparison blows.

And why bring up Brawl?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

If things like wavedashing and L-canceling where deciding skill factors in melee it'd be a terrible game with no depth. They're more like necessities. (lol spelling?)

 

[BrawlLover]

There's a lot more that goes into melee apparently.

 

[Discolicious]

You might as well bring up brawl because this thread is theoretical and pointless and you won't listen to anyone

 

[Wobbles]

No th0rn, I'm pretty sure you're a troll.

Like I said before, there are reasons NOT to sweetspot, or NOT to edge-tech, or to delay the jump cancel on a shine.

Look at Brawl; you up+b ANYWHERE close to the edge, and you'll get the sweetspot. If the opponent tries to edgehog, you go past it automatically. Combined with longer timing on ledgehops, edge-guarding people in this way becomes nearly impossible. Edge-guarding depth is significantly reduced thanks to the auto-sweetspot mechanic.

You don't always want to JC shine b-air or waveshine or whatever. These are decisions you make based on the situation, and the technicality arises *naturally* from the situation. This game is still technically difficult without forcing you to l-cancel.

The only argument that isn't "slippery-slope" is Skler's argument that depth arises from trying to force missed L-cancels--which is funny, because nobody else is bringing it up--and again, I don't have an answer to that. Hell, I use it with ICs and get lots of infinites out of it. Again though, I don't think that added depth is significant or worth the barrier and pointless difficulty l-canceling adds to the game.

I feel terribly sorry for the slower characters who don't have options for dealing with Fox and Falco but Melee has a whole host of balancing issues and it's not all about messing up their l-cancels. It's one tiny glimmer of hope that you'll get an opening for a trickshot ZTD combo, and given that most technically sound players won't mess up anyhow, the matchups are hardly evened out that way.

Edit:

Holy crap, how can you people keep making that slippery slope argument and think it's logically valid?

 

[Magus420]

If Melee instead required you to press L/R every time at the end of even more actions like B moves, ground moves, landing from jumps, etc or else you would have double the normal lag, that could only make the game better and have more 'depth' right?

 

[metaXzero]

You might as well bring up brawl because this thread is theoretical and pointless and you won't listen to anyone

In your context, bringing up Brawl was pointless.

And because no one can bring up a valid point for Manual beating Auto besides "I prefer it that way"? That's the only type of response I can't argue. This thread was supposed to see how many would really care if it had been auto (the game doesn't change besides that).

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

If Melee instead required you to press L/R every time at the end of even more actions like B moves, ground moves, landing from jumps, etc or else you would have double the normal lag, that could only make the game better and have more 'depth' right?

hell yes! i'd feel so cool, amazing and superior for being able to do it that i will flame anyone who thinks it's unnecessary. it separates me from the noobs!

 

[metaXzero]

No th0rn, I'm pretty sure you're a troll.

Like I said before, there are reasons NOT to sweetspot, or NOT to edge-tech, or to delay the jump cancel on a shine.

Look at Brawl; you up+b ANYWHERE close to the edge, and you'll get the sweetspot. If the opponent tries to edgehog, you go past it automatically. Combined with longer timing on ledgehops, edge-guarding people in this way becomes nearly impossible. Edge-guarding depth is significantly reduced thanks to the auto-sweetspot mechanic.

You don't always want to JC shine b-air or waveshine or whatever. These are decisions you make based on the situation, and the technicality arises *naturally* from the situation. This game is still technically difficult without forcing you to l-cancel.

The only argument that isn't "slippery-slope" is Skler's argument that depth arises from trying to force missed L-cancels--which is funny, because nobody else is bringing it up--and again, I don't have an answer to that. Hell, I use it with ICs and get lots of infinites out of it. Again though, I don't think that added depth is significant or worth the barrier and pointless difficulty l-canceling adds to the game.

I feel terribly sorry for the slower characters who don't have options for dealing with Fox and Falco but Melee has a whole host of balancing issues and it's not all about messing up their l-cancels. It's one tiny glimmer of hope that you'll get an opening for a trickshot ZTD combo, and given that most technically sound players won't mess up anyhow, the matchups are hardly evened out that way.

Edit:

Holy crap, how can you people keep making that slippery slope argument and think it's logically valid?

So people can see this on this page.

 

[dudutsai]

It takes skill to L-cancel
Even if it's not that much skill, especially at high levels of play. There really isn't any reason to remove it other than wanting the game to be more noob friendly.

Auto L-canceling would make the game less skill based. That's a pretty good reason that Manual > Auto. Right?

 

[metaXzero]

It takes skill to L-cancel
Even if it's not that much skill, especially at high levels of play. There really isn't any reason to remove it other than wanting the game to be more noob friendly.

Auto L-canceling would make the game less skill based. That's a pretty good reason that Manual > Auto. Right?

But the "skill" doesn't matter at mid-to-high level play since both players will be consistent with it...

Making it automatic would make it easier for people new to get to the techs that actually matter in the long run (Wavedash, DI, Crouch-Cancel, etc.) instead of dealing with a pointless barrier.

 

[Pink Reaper]

It adds the option of me trying to make them miss the l-cancel. You of all people should appreciate that, if Fox and Falco couldn't miss l-cancels I would be forced to roll out of my shield every single time they touched it because there would be no way for them to make a mistake. Think of how gay the game would be if Fox and Falco forced every character to roll out of their shield. Low tiers would get even more ****ed up than usual. Half the reason Fox and Falco are so **** hard to play as is the tech skill you need since each missed l-cancel can potentially lose you a stock. It would be absolutely ******** to take away that barrier.

I'd have no reason to try and spotdodge space animal approaches because there would be no way for them to mess up. Might as well not even shield in those matchups since they can never make a mistake serious enough for a slow character to punish.

LOL@ meta getting what Banks said completely wrong. Banks said that PC misses l-cancels that let people punish him. He obviously doesn't miss a lot, but he still misses them occasionally. One mistake like that coming from him can make him lose the stock. If you take away the l-cancels and you make the offensive side of smash (mainly the space animal offensive side) broken as ****. Aggressive players had to deal with missing l-cancels because it's technically demanding to play aggressively, removing l-cancels makes it so much easier to play aggressively that you will never be able to punish shield pressure unless that space animal forgets to shine or doesn't know how to JC.

Once again you're mistaking "Your opponent screws up" for "Options." Nothing your opponent does or doesn't do is controlled by you, therefore it is not an option, it's just a mistake. If my opponent doesn't space well and misses an Fsmash, this is not an "Option" it is just a mistake.

Also, for all the ways that a Space Animal can screw up, not being able to miss an L-cancel would make you quit the match up forever? It's not like there aren't other mistakes to be made, screwed up Wavedashes, missed short hops, improper spacing, etc. Hell, I can get out of shine pressure by just timing my WD out of shield(Granted this is only because my character doesn't take >9000 frames to jump like yours does) L-Canceling will never make or break a match at a high level, yes people will screw them up occasionally but once again its ridiculous to assume you're only going to win/lose due to you're ability to punish missed L-Cancels.

 

[Banks]

this is such a dumb argument. this is a videogame, you press buttons to do stuff, you press a button to cancel lag. if you don't want to press buttons you should watch a movie and pretend you are controlling it.

 

[metaXzero]

this is such a dumb argument. this is a videogame, you press buttons to do stuff, you press a button to cancel lag. if you don't want to press buttons you should watch a movie and pretend you are controlling it.

WHY do you have to press a button to cancel lag when it's the 100% best thing to do? Other things requiring button pressing have their good and bad scenarios when considering doing it. L-canceling has no downsides EVER.

 

[Banks]

"why does something in a videogame have to require input from the player to be completed?" thats ur question....A videogame is a form of media which the player controls, idk if you know this. Have you ever played street fighter? you have to do a button combonation to do ryu's fireball, or any other special move. most of the directions are arbitrary and are pointless, yet no one argues for a fireball button or an autoball when you shove a controller up your ***.

think of smash like street fighter, if you were to do a waveshine you need to press x>down>a>L>down+b

lcancel standing alone may seem pointless to you, but it is part of everything. so is pressing down when you do a quarter circle > punch for a hadouken. WHY SHOULD U HAVE TO DUCK TO SHOOT PHir3 BAWWWW

your argument is that since everyone can hit that L button its pointless and we should take it out. I think technical games with button combos are good, i like videogames and the controller which controls it which is made of plastic and buttons.

so i guess I'll just say I PREFER it this way, since that's the only answer you accept. but really, I think if developers add a button that performs a function you dont need to dumb it down just because everyone can do it most of the time. even though it requires timing and adds to the complexity of performing well.

 

[iMichael]

But the "skill" doesn't matter at mid-to-high level play since both players will be consistent with it...

Making it automatic would make it easier for people new to get to the techs that actually matter in the long run (Wavedash)

Wha?

 

[Proverbs]

I haven't read a whole lot of the past posts, just a forewarning. But I did check out Wobbles' posts. So I have two things to say on the subject.

1. I prefer l-cancelling manually. I'm someone who still needs to master l-cancelling and I would still rather it be manual. It's not what separates n00bs from pros or whatever--but I think that there is a technical aspect to it. When there are a million things for your hands to do in a match, forgetting one of them can mess you up. Let's say it's a heated battle and you're going for the grab that would give you a lead. But say you missed JCing the grab. If you're playing someone like Ness and use his running grab, you're going to get punished pretty easily.

The thing is, in this situation the pressure didn't cause him to miss an l-cancel. But the thing is, this player hasn't been l-cancelling for enough time to make it natural, and so he was so focused on getting that l-cancel a second earlier that he missed JCing his grab.

The thing is, l-cancelling is a chore and it does just add another thing that you have to do. Like JCing grabs, there's never a time you don't want to l-cancel or JC a grab (so far as I know about the latter, anyhow). But having to do these things means that you need better finger dexterity. That doesn't mean that people with poor finger dexterity can't play, it just means that they have to practice more.

This way it DOES separate those who have been practicing and have been getting their tech skill down perfectly from those who haven't.

For me, adding another 'chore' that you have to do while playing is important. It makes Melee a harder game to play. Taking away chores like these make Melee a more relaxed game, but what I like about Melee is that every button you press counts and that you need to be focused on getting everything down at all times--and those who haven't been playing as long will have sloppy tech skill. L-canceling is just a part of this.

I don't hate the fact that I need to l-cancel manually. I realize it's a chore but I don't loathe it. I know that it's making me a better player, because it will force me to have to get the timing of hitting multiple buttons quickly and keep my mind sharp on that level. It's too easy for me to lazily play Marth, but when I'm forced to employ a bit of tech skill, the lack of finger dexterity shows.

And even if you never want to not l-cancel, that doesn't mean that it's a useless tech skill. It changes from player to player when they l-cancel--you do have 7 frames to do it. And it also matters if you're pressing L, R, or Z. And if you're pressing L it matters whether you're pressing it halfway down or all the way. All of these things contribute to how fast your fingers can get to the next button. The way one person does it may be superior to another person's. It may not change the game a whole lot, but it will make a difference, even if it's only a slight one.

And if you think talking about frames is nitpicking then you must think powershielding is also nitpicky. For better or for worse, frames do matter and do come into competitive play.

2. And here's my second point: Why does it matter? L-cancelling isn't going to change any time soon, so we might as well get used to the fact that it is manual, whether you think that's a chore or not.

Anyway, sorry if I repeated previous arguments. If I did and they've already been dismissed as invalid, just say they've already been brought up. You don't need to repost whatever you said before. I know it's frustrating having to hear the same thing over and over for people who haven't read the whole thread.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

I'm sure there are people in the SF community who have the opinion that less button inputs should be necessary for different things.

 

[Banks]

I'm sure there are people in the SF community who have the opinion that less button inputs should be necessary for different things.

Was there a street fighter: brawl?

 

[metaXzero]

"why does something in a videogame have to require input from the player to be completed?" thats ur question....A videogame is a form of media which the player controls, idk if you know this. Have you ever played street fighter? you have to do a button combonation to do ryu's fireball, or any other special move. most of the directions are arbitrary and are pointless, yet no one argues for a fireball button or an autoball when you shove a controller up your ***.

think of smash like street fighter, if you were to do a waveshine you need to press x>down>a>L>down+b

lcancel standing alone may seem pointless to you, but it is part of everything. so is pressing down when you do a quarter circle > punch for a hadouken. WHY SHOULD U HAVE TO DUCK TO SHOOT PHir3 BAWWWW

your argument is that since everyone can hit that L button its pointless and we should take it out. I think technical games with button combos are good, i like videogames and the controller which controls it which is made of plastic and buttons.

so i guess I'll just say I PREFER it this way, since that's the only answer you accept. but really, I think if developers add a button that performs a function you dont need to dumb it down just because everyone can do it most of the time. even though it requires timing and adds to the complexity of performing well.

The only way that comparison would be valid is if Fireballs were the 100% best thing to do everytime (meaning no point in punching at all). And you should know that is FALSE.

My argument is everyone who knows to hit the shoulder button when landing WILL hit the shoulder button upon landing. As such, what is the point of the non-L-cancel induced state? Their is no point in it being there since people won't go into it, so why should it? Hence why I say Auto would be better...

Wha?

What?

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Was there a street fighter: brawl?

 

[Skler]

The only argument that isn't "slippery-slope" is Skler's argument that depth arises from trying to force missed L-cancels--which is funny, because nobody else is bringing it up--and again, I don't have an answer to that. Hell, I use it with ICs and get lots of infinites out of it. Again though, I don't think that added depth is significant or worth the barrier and pointless difficulty l-canceling adds to the game.

The thing is, l-canceling is really easy unless the opponent does something to mess it up. Unless you're me and have terrible tech skill you don't really miss many l-cancels unless something unexpected happens. I feel like that minor technical barrier is worth that depth. Taking out depth just to make the game easier is pretty iffy, no matter how trivial the depth. That's our disagreement, I get why you think it should be taken out but I feel like any depth is worth that inconvenience.

I'm also pretty sure l-canceling helps balance the game. Most characters have it easy with l-canceling, and then there's Fox and Falco. Those guys have to l-cancel about 100000 times per match, and missing one of those can cost them the stock. I think the effort it takes to learn to l-cancel well balances out their strengths. Besides, their shield pressure would be way too powerful without the l-cancel. It isn't hard for them to pressure shields now but without the chance of making a punishable mistake (or with a much smaller chance of making a punishable mistake) it would be borderline broken.

I've been calling meta a scrub because he doesn't even acknowledge my argument, he just spouts the same exact **** he's been spouting for the entire thread. It's annoying. He also doesn't seem to understand the options l-canceling gives.

Pink Reaper, I can influence the timing of their landing so I can try to force mistakes. Spot dodging in an effort to make them miss an l-cancel is a lot like dashing in for an approach and WDing back to see if they'll whiff an attack. You're trying to coax them into making a mistake. That's a big part of smash, taking out l-canceling takes away lots of chances for them to make a mistake. If you don't see what I'm trying to say read the part of Wobble's post that I quoted, he does the same thing I do.

P.S. I would love to have Sext.

I'd even say l-canceling adds to enjoyment of the game, but that's just personal preference. Watching a gymnast do flips and cartwheels on a balance beam is impressive, but if you make the balance beam 6 feet wide it's a lot less impressive. Why is that so? It's a lot harder to make a mistake, and nobody will break their face falling off the balance beam. Difficulty just makes things more impressive, but that brings me to my next point.

Adding difficulty for difficulty's sake is silly, but l-canceling is not only really easy most of the time, it also adds some depth to the game. Removing that depth just to make the game more noob friendly (I say noob friendly because everyone else already l-cancels about 90% of the time, so this would only save new players time) would be pointless. Saving some noobs 15 minutes isn't worth any loss of depth.

 

[Discolicious]

You are trying to argue with people who know infinitely more about smash than you do...ABOUT SOMETHING THAT WILL NEVER ****ING HAPPEN
I hope I get banned for calling you the SINGLE STUPIDEST FÚCK ON ALL OF SMASHBOARDS

 

[metaXzero]

The thing is, l-canceling is really easy unless the opponent does something to mess it up. Unless you're me and have terrible tech skill you don't really miss many l-cancels unless something unexpected happens. I feel like that minor technical barrier is worth that depth. Taking out depth just to make the game easier is pretty iffy, no matter how trivial the depth. That's our disagreement, I get why you think it should be taken out but I feel like any depth is worth that inconvenience.

I'm also pretty sure l-canceling helps balance the game. Most characters have it easy with l-canceling, and then there's Fox and Falco. Those guys have to l-cancel about 100000 times per match, and missing one of those can cost them the stock. I think the effort it takes to learn to l-cancel well balances out their strengths. Besides, their shield pressure would be way too powerful without the l-cancel. It isn't hard for them to pressure shields now but without the chance of making a punishable mistake (or with a much smaller chance of making a punishable mistake) it would be borderline broken.

I've been calling meta a scrub because he doesn't even acknowledge my argument, he just spouts the same exact **** he's been spouting for the entire thread. It's annoying. He also doesn't seem to understand the options l-canceling gives.

Pink Reaper, I can influence the timing of their landing so I can try to force mistakes. Spot dodging in an effort to make them miss an l-cancel is a lot like dashing in for an approach and WDing back to see if they'll whiff an attack. You're trying to coax them into making a mistake. That's a big part of smash, taking out l-canceling takes away lots of chances for them to make a mistake. If you don't see what I'm trying to say read the part of Wobble's post that I quoted, he does the same thing I do.

P.S. I would love to have Sext.

I'd even say l-canceling adds to enjoyment of the game, but that's just personal preference. Watching a gymnast do flips and cartwheels on a balance beam is impressive, but if you make the balance beam 6 feet wide it's a lot less impressive. Why is that so? It's a lot harder to make a mistake, and nobody will break their face falling off the balance beam. Difficulty just makes things more impressive, but that brings me to my next point.

Adding difficulty for difficulty's sake is silly, but l-canceling is not only really easy most of the time, it also adds some depth to the game. Removing that depth just to make the game more noob friendly (I say noob friendly because everyone else already l-cancels about 90% of the time, so this would only save new players time) would be pointless. Saving some noobs 15 minutes isn't worth any loss of depth.

Taking out the pointless barrier from manual-L allows new players to get to what REALLY makes Melee great faster.

again, Again, AGAIN, you don't play mid-to-high level Melee with the thought "what if they miss an L-cancel" because most players will usually get it. As Pink Reaper said, that's your opponent making a mistake, NOT you using options!

Did scrub get a new definition or something? IIRC, scrubs are those who won't do whatever it takes to win and whine when others do. How am I a scrub? And Auto-L-canceling would give those SAME OPTIONS.

The rest of your post is just preference on your part...

Discolicious: reported. Just leave this thread if all you are going to do is flame.

 

[Banks]

yea we should eliminate all chances for someone to make a mistake, good call

 

[metaXzero]

yea we should eliminate all chances for someone to make a mistake, good call

You actually play Melee hoping your opponents miss their L-cancels enough for you to secure victory?

-______-

 

[Banks]

no, i never said that....? where did you get that info?

 

[strangely mundane]

What I don't get is why you guys are debating a hypothetical subject?

 

[Banks]

yea which is exactly why I'm going to stop posting long posts and chuckle at the terrible points and let skler do all the talking LOL

 

[metaXzero]

no, i never said that....? where did you get that info?

Your post seemed to be saying "Manual beats Auto because you can mess up L-cancels" even though that's just your opponent making mistakes. It's not something you play hoping it will happen.

You play assuming your opponent will cancel their lag at almost all times. If they mess up, you punish them, but you don't base your path to victory (or even part of it) on your opponent failing L-cancels (unless they are new to it).

 

[Banks]

why does that matter, no one plays waiting for mistakes, but when they happen you punish them. no one plays street fighter waiting for someone to mess up a combo, but when they do they get punished. no one fights in the UFC expecting their opponent to slip on their own poop and fall, but if it happened the guy would get his *** beat for it. kthanks