Oracle
Smash Master
It's almost exactly the same, so manual just makes it more technical.
EDIT: Post 400! woohoo!
EDIT: Post 400! woohoo!
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
Melee community: would you have REALLY cared if L-canceling was automatic?
- Thread starter metaXzero
- Start date
- Status
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Normally I'd make my own statement, but Wobble's post sums it up.
Read it. I wish I could add that to the OP (**** Wii).
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Whatever you please. Though I doubt it can refute the point made by Wobbles (which is the point I've been saying since the other thread lol).
I think L-cancelling is a pointless noob barrier, put getting rid of a lag-canceling move completely seems like a bad choice because you are getting rid of options (really you are keeping them the same, since you should never choose to not L-cancel)
My Ideal Lag-cancelling solution:
-All non-cancelled aerials lag are half of what normal lag is now (Some characters need that half-lag)
-L-cancelled aerials' lag is reduced even more (none possibly? that depends on how the game turns out)
-If an L-cancel is whiffed (Not sure how. There could be a buffer system so that if you press L while the aerial is still going and you hit the ground before that time is over, it results in a whiffed L-cancel*. Likewise, if you press L once you are on the ground, but too late, it will also result in a whiffed L-cancel.) You are given even more landing lag than normal non-cancelled lag (half of current lag)
...if that makes sense.
EDIT: *Unless, of course, the aerial finishes (and you are in a purely falling state) before said buffer window ends and you hit the ground in that time.
So basically, the buffer window ends after the set time or at the end of the aerial.
My Ideal Lag-cancelling solution:
-All non-cancelled aerials lag are half of what normal lag is now (Some characters need that half-lag)
-L-cancelled aerials' lag is reduced even more (none possibly? that depends on how the game turns out)
-If an L-cancel is whiffed (Not sure how. There could be a buffer system so that if you press L while the aerial is still going and you hit the ground before that time is over, it results in a whiffed L-cancel*. Likewise, if you press L once you are on the ground, but too late, it will also result in a whiffed L-cancel.) You are given even more landing lag than normal non-cancelled lag (half of current lag)
...if that makes sense.
EDIT: *Unless, of course, the aerial finishes (and you are in a purely falling state) before said buffer window ends and you hit the ground in that time.
So basically, the buffer window ends after the set time or at the end of the aerial.
Darth Waffles
Smash Lord
Quoted for truth
Of course it makes a difference. Yes, high-level players will miss less L-cancels, but they still DO occasionally. In fact, in a game like Melee, that's what MAKES people into higher-level players. People should be rewarded for having dexterity, fast movements, and fast reactions. Newcomers to the Smash (Melee, at least) scene will forever remain far below competetive players for this reason. Taking the button pressing away by having it automatically figure in anyway just decreases the overall skill required to play at a competetive level, and that's exactly what was WRONG with Brawl in the first place. It allowed people to come in and do as well as more dedicated people for LACK of "true advanced techniques," even if these techniques were as simple as pressing or not pressing a button.
EDIT: It also wouldn't be that far-fetched to believe that if L-cancelling becomes automatic, a time could come when topics go from "Should L-cancelling be automatic" to "Should ________ be automatic"
Also, with all of the "then Silent Wolf should clearly be the best player" lines, that's not true because he has a LIMIT. He can't JC shines for 8 minutes straight, or shoot shdls with Fox and somehow camp on every stage (I'd cry). You can't say L-cancelling separates good from bad based on technical skill, SW is the most technical, and therefore he must be the best. In fact, for things that make him so technical, JC shines and shdls don't even USE l-cancelling. He's not the best BECAUSE of his limit, even though it's undoubtedly higher than the rest of ours. There comes a point where he has to space himself and perform the same L-cancelling that everyone else does. If he messes up, which is entirely POSSIBLE, than he should get punished for it. As someone made an example of, a slight difference in consistent<-- skill, even L-cancelling, should decide an advantage
DTKPch: If two players were equal except one could l-cancel better, then yes, that guy is the better player. If they didn't have to l-cancel, that better player (probably due to a greater time investment) would be spending his time learning new tricks or watching videos or practicing his spacing or sweet spotting or something. His devotion to the game would shine through in other areas.
However... this leads into a whole new realm of argument. A player who had the same knowledge of the game would presumably be aware of his inability to L-cancel and would be playing to minimize that risk (if he were smart), while the other player is taking advantage of opportunities and new situations afforded to him (again, if he were smart). They would be thinking differently about the match and using different strategies and approaches. Since awareness of your technical ability is a skill unto itself, if the inferior technical player were putting himself in positions where l-canceling made the difference, he wouldn't be as aware, would he?
There is no rule that says the more time you spend practicing the "better" you should be. I played for three and a half years (during which time I practiced religiously whether alone or with others) by the time Mango had played eight months (during which he claims to have practiced very little by himself). He won Pound 3 while I didn't make it to the bracket.
People want to be better than others; that's great. There are plenty of ways to be better than your opponent that require practice and dedication. Learn those instead.
Please share the SC example though, I'm interested to hear it.
Edit: Darth Waffles, Brawl isn't worse than Melee because there isn't technicality. It's worse because there is substantially less creativity and very poor punishment opportunities (except for the specific character matchups where one mistake gets you killed).
And no, there is almost nothing else in the game that should be automatic. Everything else has strategic value and choice involved; l-canceling doesn't. Again, there are already countless other ways to be technical in Melee that aren't based on l-canceling.
However... this leads into a whole new realm of argument. A player who had the same knowledge of the game would presumably be aware of his inability to L-cancel and would be playing to minimize that risk (if he were smart), while the other player is taking advantage of opportunities and new situations afforded to him (again, if he were smart). They would be thinking differently about the match and using different strategies and approaches. Since awareness of your technical ability is a skill unto itself, if the inferior technical player were putting himself in positions where l-canceling made the difference, he wouldn't be as aware, would he?
There is no rule that says the more time you spend practicing the "better" you should be. I played for three and a half years (during which time I practiced religiously whether alone or with others) by the time Mango had played eight months (during which he claims to have practiced very little by himself). He won Pound 3 while I didn't make it to the bracket.
People want to be better than others; that's great. There are plenty of ways to be better than your opponent that require practice and dedication. Learn those instead.
Please share the SC example though, I'm interested to hear it.
Edit: Darth Waffles, Brawl isn't worse than Melee because there isn't technicality. It's worse because there is substantially less creativity and very poor punishment opportunities (except for the specific character matchups where one mistake gets you killed).
And no, there is almost nothing else in the game that should be automatic. Everything else has strategic value and choice involved; l-canceling doesn't. Again, there are already countless other ways to be technical in Melee that aren't based on l-canceling.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Dark Waffles. Refute this post.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
You mean "technicality /=/ depth" or "technicallity does not equal depth?
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
No way, really, meta? I can't believe you made this thread.
In most programming languages, "!=" means "does not equal." It also looks much less dumb than "=/=" or "/=/". I prefer to just use "≠", though.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
First time I've seen "=!"
1 w1nged @ngel made a misplaced Brawl+ thread that devolved into this discussion. I just redirected it lol
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
i mean if it was in brawl, i'd still love it! that's all i gotsta say my brawlthas!
Discolicious
Smash Apprentice
Wow this thread is so pointless I can't even express it...just learn to l-cancel it's pretty satisfying shffling someone to death your first time and brawl is beyond the point of no return
metaXzero
Smash Champion
^IYO
As said, I never saw "!=" before. And maybe it was just my time around Yuna, but I saw ALOT of "/=/" or "=/=".
metaXzero
Smash Champion
DP
Did you even READ the freaking OP? My god.....
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
yo bra, windowlzors is like knowledge for that bra
Banks
Smash Hero
l-cancelling makes it so it takes work to do a lot of combos, and making it automatic makes it a shallower experience. just because "everyone can do it" doesn't matter, that's a horrible reason to take it out. when everyone can double shine lets add a TURBO button to every controller to make it easier too. everyone can do it, might as well be easier RIGHT? and so what if there is never a reason to NOT lcancel, makes it all the more important to learn, and all the better to punish when they mess up and people DO mess up. theres plenty of reasons not to walk into a charged fsmash but you have the option to do that if you want, we shouldnt make it impossible to walk forward when your opponent is charging something. OR SHOULD WE DURRR DURRR
also, this is a pointless argument because brawl+ is a gimmick that will only ever be played for fun, AND on top of that the dude who makes a code can make two versions with each option.
also, this is a pointless argument because brawl+ is a gimmick that will only ever be played for fun, AND on top of that the dude who makes a code can make two versions with each option.
Darth Waffles
Smash Lord
Well, here we go
Note: SSB64 is/was played with 5-6 stocks
SSBM was competetive because of multiple advanced tactics. One prominent one was l-cancelling. Are there other situations to out-think or out-play your opponent? Yes, but if you can't jump through the hoops by L-cancelling yourself, then you're taking out an important skill which shows that you put in the time to learn how to follow up your attacks.
Note: SSBM is/was played with 4 stocks
SSBB was immediately deemed "less competetive" than the other two because of a lack of techniques which made the other two competetive. It had no L-cancelling, and less hitstun after connecting hits to make following up attacks even harder. I'm pretty sure that there's an old thread floating somewhere in one of the general discussions about what makes a game competetive. Brawl was considered the least competetive of them all, despite all of the new characters, moves, and "basic advanced tactics," for lack of a better term.
Note: SSBB is played with 3 stocks. There's definitely a trend, and I believe that a great deal of it is from the automatic NO L-cancelling
SSB64 was competetive because it was all about avoiding the 0-death combos. Although it was easily possible to mess up these combos, SSB64 defined the smash bros series as being competetive because of l-canceling. There was no airdodging or anything, and these combos literally separated Isai from the pros, and the pros from everyone else.
Note: SSB64 is/was played with 5-6 stocks
SSBM was competetive because of multiple advanced tactics. One prominent one was l-cancelling. Are there other situations to out-think or out-play your opponent? Yes, but if you can't jump through the hoops by L-cancelling yourself, then you're taking out an important skill which shows that you put in the time to learn how to follow up your attacks.
Note: SSBM is/was played with 4 stocks
SSBB was immediately deemed "less competetive" than the other two because of a lack of techniques which made the other two competetive. It had no L-cancelling, and less hitstun after connecting hits to make following up attacks even harder. I'm pretty sure that there's an old thread floating somewhere in one of the general discussions about what makes a game competetive. Brawl was considered the least competetive of them all, despite all of the new characters, moves, and "basic advanced tactics," for lack of a better term.
Note: SSBB is played with 3 stocks. There's definitely a trend, and I believe that a great deal of it is from the automatic NO L-cancelling
You want to l-cancel. If you don't get it off, however, you need to adjust to the lag and react with consideration to the landing lag. Isn't that just another example of what you refer to as "strategic choice?"
I'll probably keep going with this later, but it's nearly 12:30 in the morning now. I haven't really gotten to the second half at all yet
Lol, I wish I was a mod. I'd ban you just for being this ********.
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
The more you know...
Grunt
Smash Master
all landing lag should disappear like other fighters.
YAAAAAY!
YAAAAAY!
Wtf, Wobbles is still alive? I thought he like, died or something.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
yeah i know rite? thought he been just brawlin
th0rn
Smash Lord
If you take out spacing and strategies then you can have more time to focus on the other things, like l-canceling.
See how ******** that arguement is... stop trolling wobbles. Go back to the debate hall if this is what you like doing in your spare time.
See how ******** that arguement is... stop trolling wobbles. Go back to the debate hall if this is what you like doing in your spare time.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
so melee isn't all about l canceling? mmm *further studies the deepness of melee*
metaXzero
Smash Champion
-______-
You press a button. That's it. The work comes from reading your opponents DI, NOT pressing a button.
It being the 100% best option means their is NO purpose to not L-canceling. If their is no purpose to not doing it, why have it manual when everybody (who knows about it) is going to do it?
And to that last statement, side-tournies? Potential to become it's own lil community?
Banks
Smash Hero
you have to time it, you don't just press it. do you know how to waveshine YOU PRESS THREE BUTTONS do you know how to quintuple shine, you press b and y SO EASY. yea, you press a button to do it, what else could you possibly do? mindlink with the gamecube?
it's pretty simple, there is lag on aerial moves, if you want to cancel the lag you have to....lag-cancel. if you don't you can't do certain ground moves RIGHT after doing an aerial, you could't even do some combos REGARDLESS of DI. who gives a shiiiiit if all you do is press a button, it's what the button does that counts
i have an idea though, go to a tournament and when you miss an lcancel and get *****, state your argument to the guy, see how it goes over. and at the same time i'll falco ditto the shizwiz and every time he does a shine-bair i'll say "HEY THAT SHOULD BE AUTOMATIC" . i bet we'll be the two biggest f@gs at the tournament
I suppose the issue is that since this will never happen, we can only argue about what we think the game would be like.
For example, this situation actually becomes a reality in starcraft. In starcraft 2, they're adding multiple features such as the idle-worker button, auto-mining, and the ability to control group buildings, which essentially remove the small, technical advantages pros have over noobs (similar to what l-cancelling does for pros in melee).
However, through several games they played on a beta at blizzcon, pros saw that such features made macroing too easy. They could hit 2 keys and have everything working fine instead of having to spend 4 times that amount of time. While this does not seem to add up to much for these pros, who have upwards of 200 apm, it does make a difference in the gameplay as a whole. From what I hear, these features cause starcraft 2 to have a lot more stalemates, since both players' macros are so good that they just essentially cancel out, and any forward progress is impossible, regardless of whether you win the small, individual battles or not.
In the same way, while we don't really care about what l-cancelling would do for games between pros and noobs, what would it do for the pro community and the metagame? Would more people who were previously not as technically capable switch to Fox, since they now have one less action they have to worry about? Since they can concentrate on doing other stuff and practicing other stuff, would the metagame as a whole develop towards more tech heavy characters (and away from Peach
).
I'm not actually arguing that this would happen. I'm saying that theoretically, making l-cancelling automatic could have unforeseen repercussions that change the game, for the better or worse.
For example, this situation actually becomes a reality in starcraft. In starcraft 2, they're adding multiple features such as the idle-worker button, auto-mining, and the ability to control group buildings, which essentially remove the small, technical advantages pros have over noobs (similar to what l-cancelling does for pros in melee).
However, through several games they played on a beta at blizzcon, pros saw that such features made macroing too easy. They could hit 2 keys and have everything working fine instead of having to spend 4 times that amount of time. While this does not seem to add up to much for these pros, who have upwards of 200 apm, it does make a difference in the gameplay as a whole. From what I hear, these features cause starcraft 2 to have a lot more stalemates, since both players' macros are so good that they just essentially cancel out, and any forward progress is impossible, regardless of whether you win the small, individual battles or not.
In the same way, while we don't really care about what l-cancelling would do for games between pros and noobs, what would it do for the pro community and the metagame? Would more people who were previously not as technically capable switch to Fox, since they now have one less action they have to worry about? Since they can concentrate on doing other stuff and practicing other stuff, would the metagame as a whole develop towards more tech heavy characters (and away from Peach
).I'm not actually arguing that this would happen. I'm saying that theoretically, making l-cancelling automatic could have unforeseen repercussions that change the game, for the better or worse.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
It's not difficult. It's barely technical. Really, it's technical for the sake of being technical (which is dumb).
Their is no benefit to not doing it. Most mid-to-high level players will get it every important time. So WHY have it as manual? It seperates players who are accustomed to it from players who aren't. What is the point of that barrier?
See Wobbles post on p. 3(?). Can anyone refute that?
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
thanks for the info bra, i appreciate it
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Banks. You don't play Melee hoping for your opponent to miss an L-cancel at a crucial moment. If it happens, you punish them of course, but you don't bank your chances of winning on your opponent missing L-cancels. That's dumb like trying to bank your chances of winning a Brawl match with tripping (though not quite).
Wind Owl
Smash Lord
lol, sounds exactly like Brawl.
Banks you're missing the point. L-canceling isn't really a "Technique" or a "Skill" it's more a "Do this or else" kind of thing. There is never a reason NOT to L-Cancel, there is never a time when you can chose not to do it and have a better outcome than when you would. This isn't comparable to something like Waveshining because waveshining is an actual technique, one you can chose not to do at given times to get different, sometimes more desirable outcome. With L-Canceling isn't a choice or a skill or a technique, it's just something you HAVE to do. It's like saying Jumping is a technique or Recovering is a technique. They aren't. You must jump, you must recover and you must L-cancel. It's not a choice.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
his name is Banks...
starcraft is mad ****, but it'll never replace brawl!
also, i must get at me for multi quoting, brawl day everyday
Banks
Smash Hero
so your saying if something isn't hard to do, but has value then it shouldn't be in the game and should be automatic? let's make it so you have to input a 27 button code to l-cancel! people mess up lcancels, it makes many technical combos from fox and falco, and every character challenging to perform perfectly each time under pressure. you sound like sakurai, suggesting we make it so everyone can do everything so they can win and feel fuzzy inside.
regarding your post about banking on it, actually playing vs fox and falco I DO watch for that, i've played PC CHRIS and gotten grabs off his missed lcancels, it is crucial that they lcancel, taking it out makes their approach so much easier to be a ***got about. its the way u sheild, how high they jump, it happens, people like silent wolf etc maybe miss them NEVER but EVERYONE else isn't perfect about that
pink reaper - yea it's required but who cares, it's another way for a worse player to mess up and for a better player to be efficient. having technical talent isn't a bad thing. taking it out makes playing good an easier thing to do.
it's like playing an instrument, taking strings off a guitar and putting a cd player on it doesn't help anyone except people who suck at guitar. guitar players strive to be technical.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
guys banks is right, as a rightful brawlloving man, i gotta say he's right
This thread actually has almost nothing to do with Brawl, since we're considering a possibility in Melee right now...
And on starcraft 2 being like Brawl, I'm very scared that it could be. I've been disappointed with quite a few sequels recently.
And on starcraft 2 being like Brawl, I'm very scared that it could be. I've been disappointed with quite a few sequels recently.
BrawlLover
Smash Champion
says you, but it's quite related in some ways and you can see from the discussions above, its involvement between the games are quite apparent
- Status