Circus Re-read
What's going on in here? A game of mafia, you say?
Vote: Xatres
Xatres, should I know who you are?
This stands out to me as important in RVS. Xatres will be of focus today! :D
Xatres, comments on every single play in the game please.
No.
Nah, I'll probably find someone to tunnel all Day for something small and then switch to an inactive lynch 24 hours before deadline, like usual.
How serious is your reasoning for voting Overswarm?
Has it really been that long? I think that was the first game we ever played together. We also got steamrolled in that game, so let's not do that again.
Meh.
I've had a couple of IGMEOY moments, but not much more than that yet. Something about him you're specifically curious about?
Then I'll make a point of not doing that. Good to know that you're aware of how your play is perceived though, and that you're choosing not to adjust it.
@The bolded: Who told you that?
Also, if you want Ryker (or anyone) to contribute in any specific way, then you should probably, like, ask him a question or something. Not that there's any guarantee that he won't just respond to you with an eyerolling gif.
Are you going to play this game for real or just comment on it to look like you're in it?
Some minor stuff with Rajam, some poking at Nich (which is a ****ing stupid mistake, never engage tunnelers directly). Nich is confirmed town at this point, so this is important to learning how Circus thinks. The fact that he directly was aggressive at Nich is important to look for elsewhere.
Not seeing where Boat censor dodged.
Meh.
Oh, right, you're a mod.
I don't find OS' hatred of RVS scummy, if that's what you're asking. I have no idea what his problem with it is, and he's being a bit of a buzzkill, but it's nothing I wouldn't expect from OS based on the limited amount of play I've seen from him in other games.
Meeeeeeh
Ugh, feel like I have a hundred things I want to say. Posts incoming.
Meh
So, to be clear, you do or do not have some strong suspicion toward Inferno?
I would consider basically anyone a better lynch than a no lynch. Though I'm going to tell you right now that you trying to set-up Ryker as the default fallback lynch this early in the game, based on pretty much nothing, is not rubbing me the right way about you at all. There are plenty of people I would have no problem falling back on before Ryker, and he would be a good choice for scum to try and get rid of early if he's town. If he's still alive by D3, then we can talk about lynching him. But until then, he's not the kind of person I just want to throw away on D1 if we don't someone better. We'll find someone better. I know you and Ryker have some out-of-game beef or something, and I'm hoping that's not what is informing your opinion of him here.
I think I want him to start playing soon, because I didn't even note that he was in this game until just recently.
I do not share your town read on Rajam. Can you point to what it is that gives you that read?
What kind of question is this? Weirdest form of buddying I think I've ever seen.
If there's scum between AB and OS, it's AB. The headbutting those two were doing earlier just looked like ego v. ego to me, but this random buddying from AB afterward feels really grimey.
At least one person on this wagon is being opportunistic.
Vote: Inferno
Tery can die. But that's a job for a vig, if anyone, the way I see it right now.
So a vote for Inferno. Condemnation of Rajam, boost of me (Because I'm awesome!) and condemnation of AB (who is confirmed town). Biggest thing here is a fixation on Ryker. He could be leaving Boat alive because Boat is useless, could be defending him to attempt to let his scummate live. Dunno.
If there isn't a Doc, Boat needs to die. Or JTB. There was no NKill over the Night phase, so it would be a really, really bad scum member who did it.
I guess I have a higher opinion of him than you do. If I were scum and Ryker wasn't on my team, I would want him gone before he had a chance to sniff me out. Because I would expect him to do so. In fact, I pretty much tried to do exactly that in Super Heroes, as I'm sure you're intimately aware. I kept thinking I could use his abrasiveness against him to get him lynched so I wouldn't have to deal with him pointing fingers at me all game long.
You seem to have better meta on him than I do (which makes sense; I basically have none). I don't consider the idea that the entire scum team is bad all that unlikely, and the way Rajam is reaching for the point you're highlighting specifically rings insincere to me. I tend not to give much weight to "scummates wouldn't let so-and-so do that" logic anyway.
For accuracy's sake, I wasn't ignoring him as much as I was waiting for him to come back to the thread to see if he would respond to me before getting too hopped up on what I've been seeing from him. I've had my eye on him since his first post directed at me.
Mostly Royal Sleepover. You were town there. I've skimmed games that may have had you in them that aren't sticking in my memory, but Sleepover's my biggest reference point because I actually had to read that game when I replaced in. It seemed like you didn't like RVS there either.
I attribute your initial wagon almost entirely to people being in RVS mode. The Boat wagon seems to have formed very suddenly, and with no reason given that I find worthwhile. It's possible that there were
also opportunistic people on your wagon, but Boat's feels more telling. Four people are on that wagon, and they all seem to think they have a decent reason to be there, and none of them do.
Another defense of boat, another condemnation of Rajam. I'm feeling better about rajam every minute, because Circus' statements are seeds, not cases.
Why not JTB or Xartes or Tery or *glances at player list* Raziek (he's in this game?) if that's the case? So far, I would assume all of them to be similarly useless this game. But I also wouldn't really consider any of them a threat to scum, where as Ryker could be. That's why this is bothering me. Would you not consider Rykertown to be an asset if we have him?
He unvoted Overswarm and then basically asked "Who do you hate the most on your wagon, OS? I'll take 'em down with ya!" Looks like he's trying to get on OS' good side but doesn't know how to do it in a way that looks natural.
I didn't read FE, but I'll keep it in mind. I wouldn't say that I have an active town read on OS yet, but I have leaning scum reads on multiple players who have interacted with him that make me feel okay with him for now.
Yes, I think Ryker's just being Ryker. He's always antagonistic; it's not a scumtell. I know nothing about Moth. I may be projecting too much, but I consider attacks on things like Ryker's pic posting and "emotional" responses and antagonistic style to be fishy, because they remind me of myself in Super Heroes. It doesn't take much effort to point at a player with a playstyle that people don't like and try to turn town against them purely on that basis. All the better if it's a player that is good at finding scum. And then, when he's dead, you can just say "well, we're better off without having to worry about him anyway."
Another defense of boat. Minor reference to all the hidden players. Hard to interpret this in any meaningful way on its own.
Harsh.
Generally speaking, the later on the wagon one is, the more opportunistic it seems. Inferno had expressed some very light distaste for Boat's play earlier, but he didn't lay his vote on him until others got some momentum going on him first. His generally fluffy/safe play already had me arching an eyebrow at him anyway.
Really, my vote could almost as easily go on Tery, especially considering the point Nich brought up in his 246. But, like I said, I think I'd prefer him as vig fodder at this point. Plus, I'm not completely comfortable with Nich, so I don't feel great about following his lead on Tery just because he's making a decent point.
Circus routinely says Tery is vig fodder. If his teammate is bullet-proof, it is Tery.
@Nich: I don't see why you find that odd. If I had a strong town read on you, but still had my suspicions of Tery, why wouldn't that give me more incentive to "take your side," so to speak?
As it is, you're both pretty iffy to me.
Weak on Circus' part.
Nice FoS you've got there. You were dangerously close to OMGUS-ing him for no reason, which would have looked pretty bad for your already tarnishing image. Luckily, you subverted it with a finger of suspicion, which totally does not make you look like scum unwilling to throw the full weight of their vote around. Nice job.
What is with everyone burying their noses in Overswarm's undies this game?
Rajam's point against OS is bad, but not for this reason. Is Rajam your new most desired lynch or are you still on Boat?
So was your "reading and such" going to lead to some contribution or are you just not going to join this game until more people start looking at you?
And you're going to do that by what? Sitting around and watching (one or two of) them post? For someone who thinks he's got the scumteam locked up, you don't seem interested in pressuring any of them.
Interesting, but not substantial.
I never voted Tery. Though he seriously needs to get vig'd toNight. What don't you like about my last post?
WE GET IT CIRCUS.
Seriously, if Tery is a PGO mafia member, I am going to slap Circus with a trout for being so transparent. I really hope he's just doing this for town points and to try to divert the vig away from scum.
Also, I don't know what you're talking about. You're wrong about my alignment all the time. In the very last game we played together, you were calling me scum right before you got lynched, even though I was town, and cleared by the cop, with the godfather already flipped.
GAH. YOUR NOSE. OS' ***. I CAN'T SEE WHERE ONE ENDS AND THE OTHER BEGINS.
Inferno, pick a stance. Are you suspicious of OS or do you trust him completely? Because you're questioning him about why he wants the information he's asking for, but you seem to have no problem offering it up to him without resistance, and you're beholden to his whims above all others. OS asks you to jump and you say "how high?" I ask you to jump and you say "only if OS says it's okay." What has OS done to earn your trust? Has he earned your trust?
That's not what you said. And AB isn't the only person who hasn't followed your orders toDay; he's just the one who most actively defied them. This can't be the only reason you consider him the play now.
Interesting because this is the first time he's really gone into discussing Inferno. The fact that Circus ALSO went along with whatever I said means it was a conscious mafia decision to blend in with me. So, it being something already on their minds, it's not surprising to see it referenced. Circus has done so repeatedly. Inferno is of suspicion for this reason.
Left this out of my last post.
It's 100% sarcastic, I assure you. The only reason I'm not voting for you right now is because Inferno keeps making my eyebrow go further up my forehead than I thought it could go.
And because apparently townies do use FoS the way you just did even though it's totally pointless and dumb and this is why I hate trying to read people I've never played with.
Rajam should really get in here and respond to some of the heat he's been getting. And Boat should probably get prodded or something if he hasn't been yet.
Some more condemnation of Inferno. Makes it seem more likely he's just trying to take advantage of a player making mistakes rather than create a dichotomous relationship between scum.
V/LA today due to nephew's b-day party and probably heavy drinking afterward. Guess I'll probably be rereading AB's posts when I get the chance. And that's about all I have time to say right now. Will try to get on tonight, but I might not be in my most intelligent state of mind.
Meh, we already know AB is town.
OS, deadline's in about two days. If you want AB's lynch to go through, you're going to have to give more than this. I read over AB's posts, and his interactions with you in general, and I'm only catching a whiff of what you're apparently smelling. I see you taking AB's actions and attributing stronger negative connotations to them than they deserve. If you feel really strongly about this, then make a case. Why is AB the best lynch choice today? Please don't just give me this "if you trust me then trust me" crap again, because I just do not have any reason to believe that your read is sound even if you're town. And Inferno's 419 alone makes me want to glue my vote to him. And there are several people I would prefer to switch to before AB if I have to in order to make a lynch happen.
More condemnation of Inferno. This ramping up of that at a significant point makes me give Inferno town points... temporary, water-dissolving town points.
Well, holy ****. OS, I'd be lying if I said I actually expected you to indulge me with a laid out case. The effort is pretty impressive. I still think you're reaching in places though—particularly with your graphs (what exactly are they meant to show? Just general discrepancies between actions?), your analysis of Gheb/Adum's scum picks (you said yourself that Adum has been playing most of the game. It makes sense that we would be aware of his picks and that Gheb's would be more of a surprise when they were presented) and the post that you call "the one that damned him" (I was close to making a similar post toward you myself). And Gheb's aggression? Not a scum tell for him.
I admire the work that went into presenting all this, and I see the clues you're pointing to regarding deflection and the way AB has remained very present throughout the Day but has done little in the way of any actual action, but the confidence just doesn't match the evidence for me. You seem so certain he's scum and I'm just not there with you. I see how he's a decent play. I just don't see how he's THE play.
AB, you should probably claim as soon as possible. Deadline's a day away, and you're wagon's the one that's rolling downhill now.
Tee hee.
Exactly what I was just thinking. Even before this stupid color thing popped up, Adum was doing a good job of making me think we should switch to someone else. Frankly, the point on Frozen is totally legit, in my opinion.
Looks like frozen is toooooown.
My vote isn't even on you. Do you want it on Frozen or what?
Would be fine with Rajam too, to be honest.
lololol.
Unvote
Vote: Frozenflame
Also, Tery's jump to rule breaking after being silent and useless for the past several days is duly ****ing noted. Seriously, best vig choice. No other option.
I'd rather have Boat's slot replaced.
Tery is outright scummy to me at this point.
I'm just gonna go out on a limb and clear FF, Rajam, and Nich from everything that's happened so far. Tery is suspect, but not by much. Definitely not a vig target though.
I just got online, and there's a mountain of quote warring going on this thread that I have to weed through. Feels like there are a million and a half things that I want to respond directly to, and then a heap of new garbage gets hoisted on top of it.
Your comments on a No Lynch being better in this situation are horse**** and smack of desperate scum to me.
That was at FF, who is town.
Unvote if it'll get your panties untwisted for a minute.
This will be going back on before deadline if we don't find a better lynch. Because, to be honest, you're right, I would prefer a Tery or Inferno lynch at this point. If you want to help me make that happen, then go ahead, but no one else seems to be as bothered by their bull**** as I am.
And we're not No Lynching.
This unvote made me wonder about FF's alignment, but I think FF has proven himself to be town.
The above is directed at Frozen, just to be clear.
AB, here's what I was going to post before Soup froze the game when you asked for scum picks.
Without seeing Frozen's flip, Tery and Inferno are my biggest active scum reads. Tery's newbie in general, and I was pretty okay with just letting him get vigged on that alone, but he smells specifically newbscum to me at this point. His posts have been pretty sparse, and when they do come they're about nothing or they have anti-town uses. Almost all of the posts he has made this game so far have been complaining about the fact that he has to read the thread or fluff posts dressed up as useful "commentary." Coming out of the shadows after four days of complete silence to point at AB and cry "rule breaker!" once he claimed is terribad. Town has no incentive to do something like that; scum does.
Inferno's been playing every side of every argument this whole game. He's been following the herd on every single issue brought up throughout the Day, especially when OS has been leading it (which has been most of the time), only to turn when the tide meets any amount of resistence ("Hey, you're right, why does OS want to know that? No I'm suspicious too!"). I don't think I've seen him give an honest, free-thinking opinion on anything all game. He asks other people what his opinion should be. And when he does seem like he's about to start pressuring someone of his own volition, he backs off immediately as long as he gets some kind of response from them. He's working hard not to be on anyone's bad side.
I have a few second tier picks and people who mostly make sense based on other players' flips, but I won't list them as that would effectively out my town reads.
Condemnation of Infero and Tery.
The point that you yourself hopped onto AB's wagon opportunistically.
And yes, I absolutely was/am piggybacking. Get over it. I made that post when we had less than 12 hours before deadline. I was and still am basically in "prevent no lynch" mode. You had 3 votes on you when I voted you, one being cleared AB and one being OS, the game's most vocal and forceful player all Day. Like it or not, your lynch was the one that was happening, and still probably is.
Because I basically wasn't suspicious of you at all until you popped out of nowhere to hop on AB's wagon a day before deadline when you had basically spent all game out of the public eye. And I had no problem with someone like you staying out of the public eye for a while, but that move was unreal. AB is right when he says a player like you should know better. TownFrozen following that wagon like that doesn't make nearly as much sense to me as ScumFrozen trying to solidify the lynch and hoping it's too late for anyone to call him on it.
Your wagon was rolling. Your vote on AB was disgusting. You've been null to me all game, which is why you never saw me pressing you until after your totally transparent AB hop. But I have no problem with you being our alternative lynch, even if you're not my first choice, because I've been bringing up how much I don't like Tery and Inferno all game and hardly anyone else has even batted an eyelash at either of them. I would be a fool to expect people to switch to one of my choices at this point. It's called compromising.
But seriously, think about what you're saying to me. My vote on you, half a day before deadline, when you were already halfway toward the vote majority, is scummy and opportunistic, even though you're already basically guaranteed to be going down anyway. But your vote on AB, a day before deadline and four straight days since your last post, is not? Back when you voted AB, we may have actually had some time to find a better option. At this point, we hardly do. You plopped your vote on AB because you thought it would seal his fate as the lynch candidate, and now you're pissed that it backfired on you. You seriously didn't have a single thing to say to anybody for four days, but when deadline starts closing in you vote for AB out of the blue to try to make sure we can't switch to anyone else. And you give basically no reasoning other than "I agree with OS."
Get out of here with that bull****.
This No Lynch stuff seriously goes against everything that any veteran has ever said to me regarding lynches and deadlines. Like, I don't even know how this is being legitimately discussed. Even if we don't get to talk about it much beforehand, we get to talk about Frozen's flip plenty afterward, which is the whole point behind the theory. It is good for town to see flips, period. No lynching and allowing scum to pick the first death takes control out of town's hands and allows scum to steer the game. This is BAD. And of all the mafia vets that I respect, this is all I've ever heard them say.
Someone who's opinion I actually respect and who isn't Frozen since he has every reason to flail needs to sell me on a No Lynch if I'm going to be cool with it. Because this No Lynch movement feels completely wrong to me. I'm willing to lynch Frozen. I'm willing to lynch someone other than Frozen. I'm not willing to No Lynch. Flips are too beneficial to just sit on our hands and let scum decide which ones we see.
What a cluster****.
The fact that he's so determined to get a lynch makes me wonder if he was unhappy with Scum's strength in numbers.
Vote: Terywj
**** it, make this happen.
I'm going to go eat dinner. I'll be back on soon. I'll probably be online and here until deadline.
Yaaaay, Circus votes for Tery, effectively clearing or condemning Tery based on how you look at it. Given that there was no major lynch started, I'll go with Tery being more cleared than not.
I'm being opportunistic? My brain is going to explode.
Will be bulldozing Nich's wall-o-**** in a moment. Also, expansion on why Tery's the play, though I feel like it should be obvious to anyone paying attention.
More diversion FROM Circus TO Tery. I doubt he'd be silly enough to do it this early.
Are you kidding me? You might as well just say that you picked me completely arbitrarily. "OS is OS and the rest are noobs" are not good reasons for disqualification and you should know that.
You are also acting like you already know Frozen is town. Care to show me where that was established? Looks like you're trying to hold my vote on Frozen against me as if it's already clear that he flipped town. If you're trying to frame me, you're jumping the gun quite a bit.
I've had my vote on Inferno for most of the game. His extra safe and sheepy play has been bothering me all game, and I've been pointing out examples of this as I see them, but a large portion of my time spent on this game has also gone toward trying to figure out OS and whether or not his reads were going to be things I would support or fight. OS made himself town mob leader pretty early on, and that naturally caused me to focus not only on people that I found scummy, but also on what common ground I could find with OS since I knew he would be leading the lynch later on regardless of my own reads.
Also, your analysis that I was in favor of the AB wagon is simply false. You bolded one line out of that post that showed why I considered AB's lynch decent, but it was surrounded with reasons I had for doubting OS' read. I was willing to lynch AB because we were getting close to deadline, but I was still open to other avenues, which is why my vote didn't go on him. You're cherrypicking parts of my posts.
Nothing changed my mind about AB. I never found his play overly scummy, and his defense was convincing. The only things that really changed were my view of Frozen and my willingness to lynch AB. You are misreading me, or mischaracterizing me.
You don't have to buy the no lynch explanation, since that's not the explanation I gave. The no lynch simply factors into the way I'm manically vote hopping because I want a lynch, which means I'm much more willing to compromise and lynch people that I do not find ideal.
The explanation that I actually gave for my vote on Frozen was how opportunistic his vote on AB looked, after being completely absent from the game for four straight days. I've already explained that pretty well, I think, if you've actually been reading my posts.
I do not recall this Tery wagon you're talking about. Sure, people expressed distaste for Tery, but there was never a wagon from what I remember.
I voted for Frozen because he was looking like the only reasonable option after AB claimed since he had garnered the most votes and I found his jump on AB scummy. We were 12 hours away from deadline. I consider that serious crunch time. The fact that we're still arguing about this and bringing up new options 3-4 hours away from deadline is absolutely bananas to me.
I picked one thing to reply to at first. I logged on, saw a mountain of new posts to read, and decided to tackle it in pieces, starting with the easiest thing I could respond to.
And of course I was intent on pushing the Frozen lynch through. I was intent on pushing A lynch through, as opposed to not lynching.
I guess it depends on what you consider notable. I've been pushing them both all day, but my passion for it has been lacking until recently since we weren't in a ******** scramble for getting someone lynched toDay until right now. I will freely admit that most of my time has been spent trying to figure out how much I want to trust OS and how closely I'm willing to follow his reads.
Was there more to this? Looks like you forgot to finish writing something, because I don't follow.
Again. 12 hours to deadline. We needed (and still need) 7 players for a lynch. In that scenario, you COMPROMISE. Trying to flip to some other player that late in the Day is normally a good way to fall into a no lynch. And hey, look what's happening....
I never pushed for a Tery lynch before because I just thought he was useless and that he should get vig'd. His post regarding AB's goof is what made me want him straight up dead for being scummy.
What are you talking about? Everyone was following AB. Of course I count AB's vote; he hadn't lost his voting privileges yet. Frozen's wagon was very much the wagon that was rolling down the hill toward the lynch, and Tery's was not. I still found Frozen very scummy. I still do think that Frozen's vote on AB is very scummy. I could have tried to push the momentum toward Tery, but why should I do that if I think Frozen is scummy too?
The only reason I'm on Tery now is because Frozen's wagon was losing steam anyway. I might as well push for who I really want. And also probably because Frozen's AtE worked on me a little bit.
I took my vote off Frozen so he would stop shrieking about the predicament he was in and I could get a better idea of what I wanted to try to do without him filling up the thread with AtE. I said I would be putting my vote back by deadline if I didn't feel like trying to pursue something else.
There is opportunistic and then there's doing what you have to do to make a lynch happen. Townies make concessions in order to keep the Day from ending in a no lynch and robbing town of information. If you had played or watched any game with me in the last few months, you would know that I am no exception to this. I'm on almost every lynch that happens in every game I'm in. Because I want to make sure it goes through, even if it's not my first choice for a lynch. Because seeing flips is CRUCIAL for town.
Defense of frozen, discussing why he didn't go after Tery before.
....
How are we not lynching you?
This was @ Tery. I can't imagine Circus knew he'd be dead at this point.
I find ones that specifically make me facepalm and quote them.
Rajam already did ask for a replacement. You're not even paying attention.
How the **** did I even get from not being considered for lynch at all to essentially the only doable lynch choice in, like, two hours?
Velguarder, basically a Maverick VT.
And frankly, I do not even have the energy to crush all of your stupid and in some places downright hypocritical points with 6 votes on me and an hour left in the Day.
Hammer me. I welcome the release of death at this point.
Huh. Weird how much of a weight off my shoulders that feels.
Good job, Nich.
Sooooooo. Given the above, and the fact that there was NO NKill whatsoever, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that we DON'T have a vig. Unless the vig and scum decided to attack the same person who was protected by doc or both were lazy. Doubtful. Given that we don't have a vig, I'd be inclined to clear Tery because... why have bulletproof scum with no vig? It's possible, but still.
1. Inferno3044
2. JTB
3. Overswarm
4. Red Ryu (red ryu had an opportunistic jump on the Circus wagon; wouldn't have done that as scum, only indie, which is not what I'm looking for)
6. Analytical Buttheads (Gheb_01/adumbrodeus)
7. Rajam
8. Nicholas1024
9. Xatres
10. Terywj
11. Raziek
12. Boatchouli (Ryker/Moth)
13. Frozenflame751
The three of prime suspicion today, imo, would be JTB, Raziek, and Boat. All three have been completely absent.
vote: Raziek
Frozen, who do you think we should go for?
![Terywj [태리]](/data/avatars/l/71/71007.jpg?1555906021){kind=avatar}
