Megaman X: Day of Death. ~ EVERYBODY DIED. SCUM WINS. GAME OVER.

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Flailing scum.

Nah, mad town.

But I did call you a liar.

Based on our differences in our view on your meta, which is complete bull**** to call me a liar for. Can you point to a SINGLE explicit lie I've made where the facts in question weren't in dispute? Nope.jpg You're calling me a liar for disagreeing with you about your meta simply because we used to be partners and you're just stubbornly assuming that I must have taken out of that game EXACTLY what you wanted me to.

I haven't lied at all. You just don't agree with my assessment of your play. Calling me a liar is a complete representation of the situation and you know it.

I know you're good, but seriously even a cursory read of the game without confirmation bias and you should KNOW that I never shrugged off the limelight, pushed cases, and pushed against cases. I didn't even deflect.

And a cursory read of this game without YOUR OWN bias would reveal that you are guilty of these things. What, you think OS just made all that **** up? Because if I'm a liar than so is he, isn't he?

Why aren't you voting for him then, or calling him a liar? OS can disagree with you about your meta and it's ok but I can't? That's a pretty reasonable standard.

Clearly OS and I had similar interpretations of your play. Why the **** do you think I asked you guys early on who had made your early posts in the game? I was specifically asked to find out if it was you (adum) because I was getting what ended up being a similar vibe that OS got from you. You can try to mislabel and misrepresent it as empty bandwagonning all you want but maybe if YOU would re-read the game without spite bias you'd know that I've been entirely consistent and wasn't just being an opportunist like half the ****ing crowd here. Me being busy and not being able to throw a vote on you for a few days doesn't make me an opportunist when I had clearly voiced a willingness to pressure you early on in this day.

If you KNOW you're bad at meta, why did you say it mirrored your reasoning? If I was just inherently scummy, WHY DIDN'T YOU JUST SAY THAT? Why did you feel that need to toss in meta?

How does me being bad at meta in any way, shape, or form make someone else reasoning and partial meta case incompatible with my own meta read? Like, what? I didn't just "toss in" meta, it was a legitimate part of my overall reason to be suspicious of you, a stance I'm not backing down from. You were scummy for BOTH reasons (being obstinate/uncooperative/unreasonably critical of OS drawing focus to himself AND the meta connection), and I wasn't just taking anything on. The only reason I focused more on explaining the meta aspect of my case is because THAT'S THE PART YOU TOOK ISSUE WITH AND CALLED ME A LIAR FOR, but that doesn't mean it was the primary thrust of my stance.

I don't buy it FF, if you have reasons to believe a player is scum, you have a reason to believe a player is scum. Taking it back suggests that you were just jumping on cause it was easy.

I'm not taking back anything. I already ****ing said I still stand by saying what you were doing was scummy and that I WOULD STILL PROBABLY BE VOTING FOR YOU IF YOU WEREN'T CONFIRMED TOWN. How is that taking anything back?

I still seriously can't believe you think I'm the play over the scummy *** bandwagoners flying all over the place.

Oh and I forgot Tery is still scummy as **** too for jumping on my bandwagon for no good reason either. Add him to the other 3 I just listed. Now I'm really sure there's probably 2 scum in that screw.

 

[Raziek]

Right here. What is there to say? My questions were never answered, and unless someone wants to sell me on a NL (which I see little benefit to), I'm following the votes.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Circus, what the hell? What separates Boat from FF at this point?

Inferno same.

FF, I'd like a claim, I'm willing to move off, but not over a NL. Claim.

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

Raz, we don't have the time for anyone else, vote FF.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Circus, what the hell? What separates Boat from FF at this point?

Inferno same.

FF, I'd like a claim, I'm willing to move off, but not over a NL. Claim.

And this is why you're like the only person who I don't really have a problem with gunning for me

We don't see eye to eye. I get that. But dude seriously, even YOU should be able to tell that this wagon is complete bull**** and most of the people on it are opportunistic as ****.

I get it that NL is rarely the ideal route to go. However, it is absolutely NOT the worst route to go. What I can tell you is rushing a last minute claim and lynch with less than a day to discuss the claim and the implications of the lynch is ALWAYS worse than just letting the no lynch go.

Like seriously, last minute claims and rushed lynches are absolutely anti-town and don't let anyone tell you otherwise. All you're doing is giving the scum a free lynch and information about PRs that way WITHOUT allowing the town to get the benefit of the claim and the pending flip which is DISCUSSION.

Let me repeat, rushing last minute claims and lynches GIVES THE SCUM ALL THE INFO THEY WANT AND OFTEN A FREE MISLYNCH, AND DOESN'T GIVE THE TOWN ANY BENEFICIAL INFO THAT PEOPLE MIGHT PURPORT IT DOES.

Pressuring people to claiming is pro-town when we have ample time to discuss the claim itself and the wagon that led up to the claim. We don't have that here. We have spiteful people and opportunists chomping at the bit to get a lynch just for the sake of getting a lynch which is complete bull****. Like seriously, take a step back and look at what other people are doing and you should know this who scenario just reeks of awful play.

I seriously don't get why people are so gung-ho about NEEDING a lynch. NL is undoubtedly a better decision than stupid last minute wagons with no good substance to hold people accountable for. No Lynching IS NOT a universal bad for the town, and securing lynches IS NOT a universal good for the town. Use ****ing common sense people.

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

Nah, mad town.


Based on our differences in our view on your meta, which is complete bull**** to call me a liar for. Can you point to a SINGLE explicit lie I've made where the facts in question weren't in dispute? Nope.jpg You're calling me a liar for disagreeing with you about your meta simply because we used to be partners and you're just stubbornly assuming that I must have taken out of that game EXACTLY what you wanted me to.

I haven't lied at all. You just don't agree with my assessment of your play. Calling me a liar is a complete representation of the situation and you know it.

And a cursory read of this game without YOUR OWN bias would reveal that you are guilty of these things. What, you think OS just made all that **** up? Because if I'm a liar than so is he, isn't he?

Why aren't you voting for him then, or calling him a liar? OS can disagree with you about your meta and it's ok but I can't? That's a pretty reasonable standard.

Clearly OS and I had similar interpretations of your play. Why the **** do you think I asked you guys early on who had made your early posts in the game? I was specifically asked to find out if it was you (adum) because I was getting what ended up being a similar vibe that OS got from you. You can try to mislabel and misrepresent it as empty bandwagonning all you want but maybe if YOU would re-read the game without spite bias you'd know that I've been entirely consistent and wasn't just being an opportunist like half the ****ing crowd here. Me being busy and not being able to throw a vote on you for a few days doesn't make me an opportunist when I had clearly voiced a willingness to pressure you early on in this day.


How does me being bad at meta in any way, shape, or form make someone else reasoning and partial meta case incompatible with my own meta read? Like, what? I didn't just "toss in" meta, it was a legitimate part of my overall reason to be suspicious of you, a stance I'm not backing down from. You were scummy for BOTH reasons (being obstinate/uncooperative/unreasonably critical of OS drawing focus to himself AND the meta connection), and I wasn't just taking anything on. The only reason I focused more on explaining the meta aspect of my case is because THAT'S THE PART YOU TOOK ISSUE WITH AND CALLED ME A LIAR FOR, but that doesn't mean it was the primary thrust of my stance.

I'm not taking back anything. I already ****ing said I still stand by saying what you were doing was scummy and that I WOULD STILL PROBABLY BE VOTING FOR YOU IF YOU WEREN'T CONFIRMED TOWN. How is that taking anything back?

I still seriously can't believe you think I'm the play over the scummy *** bandwagoners flying all over the place.

Oh and I forgot Tery is still scummy as **** too for jumping on my bandwagon for no good reason either. Add him to the other 3 I just listed. Now I'm really sure there's probably 2 scum in that screw.

FF.

You vouch for Majora's mask as an adaquet showing of the meta that I'm talking about.

You didn't push for anything else as far as general scummyness. No, you left the meta as essentially the gist of why you were voting for me. I'm not concerned with you changing votes, I'm concerned with you BACKING OFF FROM THE POSITION THAT THE META WAS WHAT WAS DAMNING.


Meta isn't some nebulous thing that you can use to justify anything, things that people did have meanings and if you're gonna justify a meta read THEN JUSTIFY IT. Provide examples, explain it.

Especially since my interaction with OS is NOTHING like it was early in the other game. There it was playful, here it was outright antagonistic.


As for why I'm not hanging on OS doing the same, because you're better then him. Town OS has an issue where he tends to think that if you disagree with him you're scum. Knowing that, he examined meta with a confirmation bias. You don't fall into that trap, and beyond sheer scummyness you had no reason to go into meta this way.

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

Let me repeat, rushing last minute claims and lynches GIVES THE SCUM ALL THE INFO THEY WANT AND OFTEN A FREE MISLYNCH, AND DOESN'T GIVE THE TOWN ANY BENEFICIAL INFO THAT PEOPLE MIGHT PURPORT IT DOES.

Die.

The wagon gives bad info, but it gives us a flip which decreases our chances of hitting scum in general.

Less question marks = fewer people to kill through before we hit scum.


You know better FF.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Saying we don't have the time to go for someone else is also bull**** btw AB and you know it. If this many people can just pop on to bandwagon me over a few hours it can happen very easily again. Not that it will though, since the scum will be perfectly content to sit on my wagon to stall out the day, hiding behind your "we must push through a lynch" misguided principle bull****.

FF.

You vouch for Majora's mask as an adaquet showing of the meta that I'm talking about.

You didn't push for anything else as far as general scummyness. No, you left the meta as essentially the gist of why you were voting for me. I'm not concerned with you changing votes, I'm concerned with you BACKING OFF FROM THE POSITION THAT THE META WAS WHAT WAS DAMNING.

Yes, I vouched for MM being an adequate showcasing of the meta that OS was talking about when he made his case against you. I never said meta was the gist of why I was voting for you either. In fact, if anything, you should have been able to gather that the whole meta case OS brought was just the tipping point for me to move from having you as someone I was simply ok with lynching to actually going ahead and voting for. Never once did I mention meta before OS did. That's because though I had the idea kind of swirling around in the back of my mind, it was never my primary thrust for my suspicion of you.

I NEVER said that meta was the "damning" factor. I only ever said that I agreed with OS in his meta assessment of you, and that I had REASON TO DO SO BASED ON WHAT I TOOK OUT OF MY EXPERIENCE WITH YOU. That's literally all I ever said or even ****ing implied. You're strawmanning the **** out of me right now. I can't back off from a position I never ****ing took.

Meta isn't some nebulous thing that you can use to justify anything, things that people did have meanings and if you're gonna justify a meta read THEN JUSTIFY IT. Provide examples, explain it.

OS did that for me. What did you want me to do? Present my own ****ing feature length presentation that is just a rehash of what OS said with charts and everything to be ****ing obnoxious? Why the **** would I do that. Why isn't it simply enough to say, "I agree with OS, here's why, and here's my experience that informs my position of agreement with him."?

Especially since my interaction with OS is NOTHING like it was early in the other game. There it was playful, here it was outright antagonistic.

Opinions, opinions everywhere.

As for why I'm not hanging on OS doing the same, because you're better then him. Town OS has an issue where he tends to think that if you disagree with him you're scum. Knowing that, he examined meta with a confirmation bias. You don't fall into that trap, and beyond sheer scummyness you had no reason to go into meta this way.

Again, you're too tied up with this whole meta thing. Just because I happened to agree with OS's meta assessment doesn't mean I was advocating that as the primary reason to lynch you. I was simply affirming FOR OTHER PEOPLE that I thought that it had merit as a case. YOU on the other hand are taking that way too far and trying to condemn me simply for agreeing with OS, and you're trying to force me to take positions I never took. You're literally accusing me of being scum and trying to get me lynched for doing something I never ****ing did.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Die.

The wagon gives bad info, but it gives us a flip which decreases our chances of hitting scum in general.

Less question marks = fewer people to kill through before we hit scum.


You know better FF.

WHAT IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND HOLY AM I ****ING READING.JPG

I mean, I'm gonna assume you mean to say "increases" but still this is a load of bull****.

That's like saying we should just lynch at random because even if you don't hit scum, we get a flip, and one less townie in the game increases our numerical chances of getting scum next time.

Like you're literally arguing that even making the most bull****, uninformed lynches are ok because even if we **** up and kill town, we have a better shot next time numerically.

Jesus ****ing christ how tunnel visioned are you right now?

BAD LYNCHES NET BAD INFO. THE TOWN NEEDS GOOD, USEFUL INFO IN ORDER TO WEED OUT THE SCUM. A RUSHED BAD LYNCH LIKE THIS GIVES THE SCUM FREE INFO, POTENTIALLY A FREE PR KILL, AND A NIGHT TO WREAK HAVOC WITH LITTLE TO NO BENEFIT FOR THE TOWN.

A NO LYNCH GIVES THE TOWN NO INFO, THE SCUM NO INFO, AND A NIGHT TO WREAK HAVOC.

My ****ing dog could tell me which of the two scenarios is worse for the town.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 7 (7 members and 0 guests)

frozenflame751, Inferno3044, Red Ryu, Circus, Raziek

Sup useless people who aren't commenting and lurking scumbags! I wonder who the invisibles are. =O

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Unvote

FF is the only person making sense right now, and despite my irks with him, I have to agree with his line of reasoning.

Push Boat, since he would be a fine fallout for right now.

Vote: Boatchouli

i'll be back for the deadline.

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

RR:

Saying we don't have the time to go for someone else is also bull**** btw AB and you know it. If this many people can just pop on to bandwagon me over a few hours it can happen very easily again. Not that it will though, since the scum will be perfectly content to sit on my wagon to stall out the day, hiding behind your "we must push through a lynch" misguided principle bull****.

Yes, I vouched for MM being an adequate showcasing of the meta that OS was talking about when he made his case against you. I never said meta was the gist of why I was voting for you either. In fact, if anything, you should have been able to gather that the whole meta case OS brought was just the tipping point for me to move from having you as someone I was simply ok with lynching to actually going ahead and voting for. Never once did I mention meta before OS did. That's because though I had the idea kind of swirling around in the back of my mind, it was never my primary thrust for my suspicion of you.

I NEVER said that meta was the "damning" factor. I only ever said that I agreed with OS in his meta assessment of you, and that I had REASON TO DO SO BASED ON WHAT I TOOK OUT OF MY EXPERIENCE WITH YOU. That's literally all I ever said or even ****ing implied. You're strawmanning the **** out of me right now. I can't back off from a position I never ****ing took.

OS did that for me. What did you want me to do? Present my own ****ing feature length presentation that is just a rehash of what OS said with charts and everything to be ****ing obnoxious? Why the **** would I do that. Why isn't it simply enough to say, "I agree with OS, here's why, and here's my experience that informs my position of agreement with him."?

Opinions, opinions everywhere.

Again, you're too tied up with this whole meta thing. Just because I happened to agree with OS's meta assessment doesn't mean I was advocating that as the primary reason to lynch you. I was simply affirming FOR OTHER PEOPLE that I thought that it had merit as a case. YOU on the other hand are taking that way too far and trying to condemn me simply for agreeing with OS, and you're trying to force me to take positions I never took. You're literally accusing me of being scum and trying to get me lynched for doing something I never ****ing did.

Then why didn't you post an ACTUAL CASE AGAINST ME? If the meta wasn't the thrust of your reasoning to believe I'm scum then why didn't you say the thrust?



The closer it is to deadline more difficult it is to actually force a lynch to happen. Yes they CAN, but the odds of it happening are ridiculously low when we have to switch at such a late date.

WHAT IN THE NAME OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND HOLY AM I ****ING READING.JPG

I mean, I'm gonna assume you mean to say "increases" but still this is a load of bull****.

That's like saying we should just lynch at random because even if you don't hit scum, we get a flip, and one less townie in the game increases our numerical chances of getting scum next time.

Like you're literally arguing that even making the most bull****, uninformed lynches are ok because even if we **** up and kill town, we have a better shot next time numerically.

Jesus ****ing christ how tunnel visioned are you right now?

BAD LYNCHES NET BAD INFO. THE TOWN NEEDS GOOD, USEFUL INFO IN ORDER TO WEED OUT THE SCUM. A RUSHED BAD LYNCH LIKE THIS GIVES THE SCUM FREE INFO, POTENTIALLY A FREE PR KILL, AND A NIGHT TO WREAK HAVOC WITH LITTLE TO NO BENEFIT FOR THE TOWN.

A NO LYNCH GIVES THE TOWN NO INFO, THE SCUM NO INFO, AND A NIGHT TO WREAK HAVOC.

My ****ing dog could tell me which of the two scenarios is worse for the town.

No, deadline lynches net NO info, not bad info and it improves numerical odds.

No lynches are that without improving numerical odds.

There are too many people that need to die to skip a valuable lynch.

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

RR, he's lashing out against everyone and everything to avoid his lynch, even not missing lynches.

Do you know how much town win rate drops with a no lynch? Even a deadline lynch improves numerical superiority, and it's not bad info, it's just sheer nullness.


He's just flailing, put your vote back please.

 

[Circus]

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 7 (7 members and 0 guests)

frozenflame751, Inferno3044, Red Ryu, Circus, Raziek

Sup useless people who aren't commenting and lurking scumbags! I wonder who the invisibles are. =O

I just got online, and there's a mountain of quote warring going on this thread that I have to weed through. Feels like there are a million and a half things that I want to respond directly to, and then a heap of new garbage gets hoisted on top of it.

Your comments on a No Lynch being better in this situation are horse**** and smack of desperate scum to me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'll be here at the deadline, if your gonna lynch him do so, but I'll be here later if need be to make a decision on that.

 

[Circus]

Unvote if it'll get your panties untwisted for a minute.

This will be going back on before deadline if we don't find a better lynch. Because, to be honest, you're right, I would prefer a Tery or Inferno lynch at this point. If you want to help me make that happen, then go ahead, but no one else seems to be as bothered by their bull**** as I am.

And we're not No Lynching.

 

[Circus]

The above is directed at Frozen, just to be clear.

 

[Gova]

1. Inferno3044 ()
2. JTB ()
3. Overswarm (2) Rajam, Boat
4. Red Ryu ()
5. Circus (1) FF
6. Analytical Buttheads (1) Nich
7. Rajam (1) Xatres
8. Nicholas1024
9. Xatres ()
10. Terywj ()
11. Raziek ()
12. Boatchouli (1) RR
13. Frozenflame751 (3) OS, Inferno, Raziek

Not voting - JTB, Circus, AB, Tery

With 13 playing, it takes 7 to lynch!

Deadline is September 20th at 11:59 PM EST (GMT-5).

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

I'll be here at the deadline, if your gonna lynch him do so, but I'll be here later if need be to make a decision on that.

**** y'all, it's this attitude which makes us not get lynches.

Unvote if it'll get your panties untwisted for a minute.

This will be going back on before deadline if we don't find a better lynch. Because, to be honest, you're right, I would prefer a Tery or Inferno lynch at this point. If you want to help me make that happen, then go ahead, but no one else seems to be as bothered by their bull**** as I am.

And we're not No Lynching.

This post really ****ing smells. Not because of the unvote because it's passive as hell. If you wanna pursue other people, YOU should be making it happen, not FF.


Also, not sure about tery, but inferno reads completely noobtown, the stuff he's doing seems to be cause he doesn't know the game not because he's scum.


A little more then 6 hours left, lets move folks!

 

[Circus]

AB, here's what I was going to post before Soup froze the game when you asked for scum picks.

Without seeing Frozen's flip, Tery and Inferno are my biggest active scum reads. Tery's newbie in general, and I was pretty okay with just letting him get vigged on that alone, but he smells specifically newbscum to me at this point. His posts have been pretty sparse, and when they do come they're about nothing or they have anti-town uses. Almost all of the posts he has made this game so far have been complaining about the fact that he has to read the thread or fluff posts dressed up as useful "commentary." Coming out of the shadows after four days of complete silence to point at AB and cry "rule breaker!" once he claimed is terribad. Town has no incentive to do something like that; scum does.

Inferno's been playing every side of every argument this whole game. He's been following the herd on every single issue brought up throughout the Day, especially when OS has been leading it (which has been most of the time), only to turn when the tide meets any amount of resistence ("Hey, you're right, why does OS want to know that? No I'm suspicious too!"). I don't think I've seen him give an honest, free-thinking opinion on anything all game. He asks other people what his opinion should be. And when he does seem like he's about to start pressuring someone of his own volition, he backs off immediately as long as he gets some kind of response from them. He's working hard not to be on anyone's bad side.

I have a few second tier picks and people who mostly make sense based on other players' flips, but I won't list them as that would effectively out my town reads.

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

Fair point on Tery.

For Inferno thought, being led too easily is way too common in noobtown, I really don't see it as scummy.


But if you're want one of them to die, WHY AREN'T YOU PUSHING THEM? Why you asking FF to do it?

 

[Inferno3044]

Frozen is finally putting **** down. Before today, he has been fairly inactive and the only thing he actually did worth significant value was jumping on the AB wagon. His posts make a lot of sense, bring a lot of information, and make me less willing to lynch him.

After this RR, there is a lot of difference between him and Boat. Before they both didn't put in too much of value and was thinking that they can both die. My opinion is now changed (at least for Frozen's case). I am still willing to lynch boat. He was here for like the first 3 days and just vanished and in that time he didn't do ****. Also I have no idea why people took their vote off of him and why nobody would support that play. It's a much better play than Frozen atm and in 6 hours it can definitely work.

Unvote Vote: Boatchouli

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

Frozen is finally putting **** down. Before today, he has been fairly inactive and the only thing he actually did worth significant value was jumping on the AB wagon. His posts make a lot of sense, bring a lot of information, and make me less willing to lynch him.

After this RR, there is a lot of difference between him and Boat. Before they both didn't put in too much of value and was thinking that they can both die. My opinion is now changed (at least for Frozen's case). I am still willing to lynch boat. He was here for like the first 3 days and just vanished and in that time he didn't do ****. Also I have no idea why people took their vote off of him and why nobody would support that play. It's a much better play than Frozen atm and in 6 hours it can definitely work.

Unvote Vote: Boatchouli

Because FF is activily scummy, look at him he's using any trick to try to survive including lashing out at the most basic rule of thumb, that no lynches are bad, especially d1 (which ridiculously reduces win rates for town).

He's backing entirely off his reason to jump on my wagon, and saying he had other reasons which he conveniently never said.

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

Seriously, nobody else sees how hard FF is backing off everything now that he's actually being brought to task for what he said?


How is this not ridiculously scummy?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Unvote

FF is the only person making sense right now, and despite my irks with him, I have to agree with his line of reasoning.

Push Boat, since he would be a fine fallout for right now.

Vote: Boatchouli

i'll be back for the deadline.

Dude go for circus instead. He's the most obvious opportunist and after his latest gem of a post he's only strengthening that scummyness.

I just got online, and there's a mountain of quote warring going on this thread that I have to weed through. Feels like there are a million and a half things that I want to respond directly to, and then a heap of new garbage gets hoisted on top of it.

Your comments on a No Lynch being better in this situation are horse**** and smack of desperate scum to me.

LOL. That's some big talk you got there. Mind trying to actually substantiate your claim that my analysis is BS instead of just dismissing it and calling me wrong? I'd LOVE to see you try. At the very least I'll have the satisfaction of showing how absolutely deplorable your command of the mafia metagame is before I get killed because of people who can't think rationally.

RR:Then why didn't you post an ACTUAL CASE AGAINST ME? If the meta wasn't the thrust of your reasoning to believe I'm scum then why didn't you say the thrust?

Most of it had been covered at least in passing and on a few occasions where OS was discussion your simple playstyle and criticizing it before the huge meta case. I didn't elaborate much on exactly what my major thrust was, and you're well within your rights to criticize me for that. I don't really have a defense for that, all I can say is that I didn't have anything particularly unique to contribute concerning my read of you and didn't feel like saying it for the sake of saying it.

You can criticize me for that all you want. It was bad town play, yeah, I can own up to that. Don't ****ing indict me for **** I didn't do though. And I REALLY don't think me simply not explicitly stating all my reasons for wanting you lynched is SO scummy that it outweighs the fact I've been consistent and transparent about my read of you all game leading up to your claim.

The closer it is to deadline more difficult it is to actually force a lynch to happen. Yes they CAN, but the odds of it happening are ridiculously low when we have to switch at such a late date.

Well then why didn't you say that the odds were just lower? Why DID you say that we "didn't have time" for another lynch? OMG WHY ARE YOU BACKING DOWN FROM YOUR PREVIOUS STANCE AB?!?! HURR DURRRR. See how ****ing annoying that is?

No, deadline lynches net NO info, not bad info and it improves numerical odds.

No lynches are that without improving numerical odds.

There are too many people that need to die to skip a valuable lynch.

Wrong.

Let's take a look at our little scenario here.

You guys are trying to rush a last minute lynch on me, right now. Here's what can happen.

1.) I don't claim and you guys last minute lynch me.

2.) I claim and you guys still last minute lynch me.

3.) We no lynch.

In scenario 1, town just gets to know what I was which is pretty useless after the fact, you guys are either down a VT OR a PR (varying degrees of severity of the loss) AND scum has one less person to deal with, has a numerical advantage getting their first free mislynch, and can get their free night kill.

In scenario 2, town gets to know what I am before I die, but then lynches me anyway so my claim is basically useless, and the limited info you MIGHT get would be people discussing the implications of my claim before deadline, which would amount to a few hours of discussion at the most with BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION very few people. Then again, mafia has secured their first mislynch, the town is down a VT at best and a very important PR at worst, so scum is at an advantage (of varying severity) and they don't have to deal with me anymore. They they get their free NK.

In scenario 3, town gets no info and nothing to discuss in terms of flip. This is the ONLY downside town faces in this scenario. However, in this scenario the town BENEFITS from NOT risking the loss of a VT (at best) or a PR (at worst) AND the scum is left to their own WIFOM deliberations about what I may or may not be, and has to decide whether my refusal to claim indicates I'm a PR or I'm a VT. The ball is now in their court and they don't get to get rid of me for free like the do in the other scenarios. Furthermore, since they don't know my role, they remain in the dark as to the nature of the setup and don't get valuable info as to what other people might be based on what I claim. They only net one townie kill from the whole exchange, as opposed to two.

Though I can imagine you might retort saying that the scum getting to get rid of two townies is a good thing now since we have a better chance of hitting scum next time. I still don't understand how you don't see the problem with that logic.

In scenario 3 BOTH factions are left without info. In the other two, the scum ABSOLUTELY GAINS THE ADVANTAGE, WITH THE WORST CASE SCENARIO BEING WE MISLYNCH A VERY USEFUL PR RIGHT OFF THE BAT THAT THE SCUM DIDN'T EVEN HAVE TO FIGHT TO GET LYNCHED.

No Lynch is absolutely better than rushed last minute lynches. Without the ample discussion surrounding roleclaims and the wagons leading up to them, all the purported benefits the town gets from lynching, even mislynching, go right down the ****ing drain and anyone with half a brain should be able to see that.

RR, he's lashing out against everyone and everything to avoid his lynch, even not missing lynches.

That's a lie. You're trying to imply that I'm lashing out against almost everything against me SIMPLE because it's against me. You're establishing a false cause. I'm lashing out against most things and people against me because THE ATTACKS AGAINST ME ARE TERRIBLE AND THE PEOPLE VOTING ME ARE BLATANT OPPORTUNISTS. RR was against me and I didn't lash out against him because he had the only reasonable stance. That example proves your standard for characterizing my play as false, since it can't account for that discrepancy. Nice try though.

Do you know how much town win rate drops with a no lynch? Even a deadline lynch improves numerical superiority, and it's not bad info, it's just sheer nullness.

Oh yeah, go ahead and try to be cool and cite your bull**** mafia scum NEWBIE GAME NO LYNCH WIN RATE STATISTICS. The applicability of that study to CLOSED SETUPS, WITH VETERAN PLAYERS, WITH VARIOUS AND MORE POWERFUL POWER ROLES is limited to the point of basically being irrelevant. Furthermore, just because avoiding No Lynch is GENERALLY a good thing, doesn't mean it is ALWAYS a good thing, and I've thoroughly explained to you WHY this scenario is NOT a good time to be enforcing the "No Lynch is a bad idea" principle.

Your logic is literally a ****ing trainwreck. You are LITERALLY taking the stance that in ANY circumstance, a RANDOM UNINFORMED LYNCH is BETTER than a NO LYNCH, which is absolutely absurd. And I'm not even straw manning. Based on the principles you're espousing, that is a NECESSARY assumption for you to work with as a mantra of basic strategy.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Because FF is activily scummy, look at him he's using any trick to try to survive including lashing out at the most basic rule of thumb, that no lynches are bad, especially d1 (which ridiculously reduces win rates for town).

He's backing entirely off his reason to jump on my wagon, and saying he had other reasons which he conveniently never said.

Bolded is WRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONGWRONG.

Your sample for that ridiculous principle tenet is complete bull**** and not applicable to games of this type with this type of players and ESPECIALLY not in this scenario. STOP ACTING LIKE NEVER NO LYNCHING IS SOME KIND OF PRO TOWN RULE. IT ISN'T.

Seriously, nobody else sees how hard FF is backing off everything now that he's actually being brought to task for what he said?


How is this not ridiculously scummy?

I HAVEN'T backed off of anything! Holy ****, I told you I still stand by pretty much everything I said and I STILL stand that if you weren't confirmed town I'd be voting for you. How the **** is that backing off of anything?

Unless you call calling you out for your strawmans and explaining how I'm NOT taking the stances you were accusing me of in a misrepresentative manner "backing off", then I haven't backed off anything, end of story.

I already said why I didn't offer specifics as to why I had a scum read on you. You have me there, I should have been more clear. Still doesn't mean I backed off anything though.

 

[Circus]

What point? Piggybacking much?

The point that you yourself hopped onto AB's wagon opportunistically.

And yes, I absolutely was/am piggybacking. Get over it. I made that post when we had less than 12 hours before deadline. I was and still am basically in "prevent no lynch" mode. You had 3 votes on you when I voted you, one being cleared AB and one being OS, the game's most vocal and forceful player all Day. Like it or not, your lynch was the one that was happening, and still probably is.

Wow. If it wasn't piggybacking before it is now. Where was all this latent suspicion of me voiced beforehand? Oh wait, it wasn't. Cool beans just being an opportunist though.

Because I basically wasn't suspicious of you at all until you popped out of nowhere to hop on AB's wagon a day before deadline when you had basically spent all game out of the public eye. And I had no problem with someone like you staying out of the public eye for a while, but that move was unreal. AB is right when he says a player like you should know better. TownFrozen following that wagon like that doesn't make nearly as much sense to me as ScumFrozen trying to solidify the lynch and hoping it's too late for anyone to call him on it.

Ok so let me get this straight.

You think Boat is useless and should be replaced. You think TERY IS OUTRIGHT SCUMMY, but just think he should be vig'd, assuming we even have one.

And then you ****ING VOTE ME because you "like a point" on me and don't even elaborate as to why and have never even voiced suspicion of me before in any significant way this whole game?

How does this make sense from a town perspective? Yeah, it doesn't. Like any townie who ACTUALLY had these views of yours wouldn't be voting for me right now. You're just doing it because I'm the easier target than Tery and the more likely to be able to get lynched before deadline because everyone else is doing it. I don't think I've ever seen a more opportunist, shoehorning sequence of posts in a long time. You can ****ing die, scum.

Your wagon was rolling. Your vote on AB was disgusting. You've been null to me all game, which is why you never saw me pressing you until after your totally transparent AB hop. But I have no problem with you being our alternative lynch, even if you're not my first choice, because I've been bringing up how much I don't like Tery and Inferno all game and hardly anyone else has even batted an eyelash at either of them. I would be a fool to expect people to switch to one of my choices at this point. It's called compromising.

But seriously, think about what you're saying to me. My vote on you, half a day before deadline, when you were already halfway toward the vote majority, is scummy and opportunistic, even though you're already basically guaranteed to be going down anyway. But your vote on AB, a day before deadline and four straight days since your last post, is not? Back when you voted AB, we may have actually had some time to find a better option. At this point, we hardly do. You plopped your vote on AB because you thought it would seal his fate as the lynch candidate, and now you're pissed that it backfired on you. You seriously didn't have a single thing to say to anybody for four days, but when deadline starts closing in you vote for AB out of the blue to try to make sure we can't switch to anyone else. And you give basically no reasoning other than "I agree with OS."

Get out of here with that bull****.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

**** missed the quick edit.

I changed the "of" in "Unless you call calling you out [of] your strawmans and explaining how I'm NOT taking the stances you were accusing me of in a misrepresentative manner "backing off", then I haven't backed off anything, end of story." to "for".

 

[Inferno3044]

The NL was the only thing that really got something suspicious in my head. In my first mafia game I made the noobish decision of deciding to vote for a no lynch. A LOT of people used that against me and called me scum because of it. They also said it was scummy for the reason AB said (to reduce numbers and have a better chance at finding scum).

@Frozen - Do you think there is any viable lynch choice today?

 

[Xatres]

Well... I have to say I'm not sold on the FF lynch. While he's definitely flipping out right now, he's also flipping out while making good, honest points.

Everyone following AB just because he's confirmed town is bullcrap. OS should know better than to suggest it. In fact, as FF pointed out, OS thought AB's case against FF was utter crap. Why should that case be suddenly improved because AB essentially cheated to prove himself town? Ethos arguments can only go so far, and it doesn't save the fact that the case against FF wasn't and still isn't very strong.

Likewise, the idea of rushing an entirely new lynch candidate in the last 12 hours of play concerns me. This is not enough time for town to truly agree on anything. No one will be truly satisfied or able to be held responsible for any vote that goes down today. Everyone will be accused of rushing, or not rushing fast enough, or of going along with the crowd. This is bad.

Let me repeat. This rushing a lynch at the last minute is BAD for town. It gives mafia plenty of ammo to accuse townies of wrongdoing. Either A) FF flips scum and they go after anyone who actually took their time to think things through or B) FF flips town and they go after anyone who rushed the lynch for being opportunistic

This whole situation reaks for town, and there's really only one way out.

We have to settle for the No Lynch. Here's why:

1) Mafia cannot take advantage of this crappy situation. Town will have more time to sort through this mess and increase their chances of making a good, solid lynch toMorrow.

2) AB has a voting restriction for the next two Days. Slowing down the rate of death makes this punishment less detrimental to town.

3) If we mislynch toDay or toMorrow (which is likely given how much damage this mad 12-hour rush is going to do to the town), then we have more to lose than to gain. The following is based on the idea of this game having 3 scum:

Mislynch toDay, Mislynch toMorrow = D3, 9 players, 3 scum, 6 town
Mislynch toDay, Lynch toMorrow = D3, 9 players, 2 scum, 7 town
Lynch toDay, Mislynch toMorrow = D3, 9 players, 2 scum, 7 town
No Lynch toDay, lynch toMorrow = D3 10 players, 2 scum, 8 town
No Lynch toDay, Mislynch toMorrow = D3, 10 players, 3 scum, 7 town
No Lynch toDay, No lynch toMorrow = D3, 11 players, 3 scum, 8 town

The best scum/town ratio on that list is actually the two days of No Lynch one. Obviously no one is going to go for that, but the margin between the one day 1 Day No Lynch options and the 1 lynch + 1 mislynch options is pretty low.

Unless you all feel confident that we can hit scum two days in a row without AB's vote, then I say we go for the No Lynch today.

Unvote

Vote: No Lynch

Let me reiterate: This situation sucks, hard. We cannot make a good decision at this stage and hope to make a good decision toMorrow as well. The level of ammo any lynch would give scum in the Morning is too high. We must take the No Lynch option.

 

[Raziek]

unvote; vote: No Lynch.

Consider me sold on it. Just doesn't feel right pushing this through.

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

Dude go for circus instead. He's the most obvious opportunist and after his latest gem of a post he's only strengthening that scummyness.


LOL. That's some big talk you got there. Mind trying to actually substantiate your claim that my analysis is BS instead of just dismissing it and calling me wrong? I'd LOVE to see you try. At the very least I'll have the satisfaction of showing how absolutely deplorable your command of the mafia metagame is before I get killed because of people who can't think rationally.

Most of it had been covered at least in passing and on a few occasions where OS was discussion your simple playstyle and criticizing it before the huge meta case. I didn't elaborate much on exactly what my major thrust was, and you're well within your rights to criticize me for that. I don't really have a defense for that, all I can say is that I didn't have anything particularly unique to contribute concerning my read of you and didn't feel like saying it for the sake of saying it.

You can criticize me for that all you want. It was bad town play, yeah, I can own up to that. Don't ****ing indict me for **** I didn't do though. And I REALLY don't think me simply not explicitly stating all my reasons for wanting you lynched is SO scummy that it outweighs the fact I've been consistent and transparent about my read of you all game leading up to your claim.



Well then why didn't you say that the odds were just lower? Why DID you say that we "didn't have time" for another lynch? OMG WHY ARE YOU BACKING DOWN FROM YOUR PREVIOUS STANCE AB?!?! HURR DURRRR. See how ****ing annoying that is?

Wrong.

Let's take a look at our little scenario here.

You guys are trying to rush a last minute lynch on me, right now. Here's what can happen.

1.) I don't claim and you guys last minute lynch me.

2.) I claim and you guys still last minute lynch me.

3.) We no lynch.

In scenario 1, town just gets to know what I was which is pretty useless after the fact, you guys are either down a VT OR a PR (varying degrees of severity of the loss) AND scum has one less person to deal with, has a numerical advantage getting their first free mislynch, and can get their free night kill.

In scenario 2, town gets to know what I am before I die, but then lynches me anyway so my claim is basically useless, and the limited info you MIGHT get would be people discussing the implications of my claim before deadline, which would amount to a few hours of discussion at the most with BY YOUR OWN ADMISSION very few people. Then again, mafia has secured their first mislynch, the town is down a VT at best and a very important PR at worst, so scum is at an advantage (of varying severity) and they don't have to deal with me anymore. They they get their free NK.

In scenario 3, town gets no info and nothing to discuss in terms of flip. This is the ONLY downside town faces in this scenario. However, in this scenario the town BENEFITS from NOT risking the loss of a VT (at best) or a PR (at worst) AND the scum is left to their own WIFOM deliberations about what I may or may not be, and has to decide whether my refusal to claim indicates I'm a PR or I'm a VT. The ball is now in their court and they don't get to get rid of me for free like the do in the other scenarios. Furthermore, since they don't know my role, they remain in the dark as to the nature of the setup and don't get valuable info as to what other people might be based on what I claim. They only net one townie kill from the whole exchange, as opposed to two.

Though I can imagine you might retort saying that the scum getting to get rid of two townies is a good thing now since we have a better chance of hitting scum next time. I still don't understand how you don't see the problem with that logic.

In scenario 3 BOTH factions are left without info. In the other two, the scum ABSOLUTELY GAINS THE ADVANTAGE, WITH THE WORST CASE SCENARIO BEING WE MISLYNCH A VERY USEFUL PR RIGHT OFF THE BAT THAT THE SCUM DIDN'T EVEN HAVE TO FIGHT TO GET LYNCHED.

No Lynch is absolutely better than rushed last minute lynches. Without the ample discussion surrounding roleclaims and the wagons leading up to them, all the purported benefits the town gets from lynching, even mislynching, go right down the ****ing drain and anyone with half a brain should be able to see that.

That's a lie. You're trying to imply that I'm lashing out against almost everything against me SIMPLE because it's against me. You're establishing a false cause. I'm lashing out against most things and people against me because THE ATTACKS AGAINST ME ARE TERRIBLE AND THE PEOPLE VOTING ME ARE BLATANT OPPORTUNISTS. RR was against me and I didn't lash out against him because he had the only reasonable stance. That example proves your standard for characterizing my play as false, since it can't account for that discrepancy. Nice try though.

Oh yeah, go ahead and try to be cool and cite your bull**** mafia scum NEWBIE GAME NO LYNCH WIN RATE STATISTICS. The applicability of that study to CLOSED SETUPS, WITH VETERAN PLAYERS, WITH VARIOUS AND MORE POWERFUL POWER ROLES is limited to the point of basically being irrelevant. Furthermore, just because avoiding No Lynch is GENERALLY a good thing, doesn't mean it is ALWAYS a good thing, and I've thoroughly explained to you WHY this scenario is NOT a good time to be enforcing the "No Lynch is a bad idea" principle.

Your logic is literally a ****ing trainwreck. You are LITERALLY taking the stance that in ANY circumstance, a RANDOM UNINFORMED LYNCH is BETTER than a NO LYNCH, which is absolutely absurd. And I'm not even straw manning. Based on the principles you're espousing, that is a NECESSARY assumption for you to work with as a mantra of basic strategy.

1. Basic logic, it's impossible to prove a negative, so it's the null hypothesis, that something does not exist. Otherwise I can claim i have a unicorn in my backyard. You have to prove something happened, not that it didn't happen. So if you intend on claiming that it matches my meta, PROVIDE A SIGNIFIGANT POOL OF EXAMPLES!


2. The issue is not that you're backing off you're stances, it's that you're backing off under the least pressure. I don't like it. Your defense of you taking the stance without explaining why is weak as hell, that's not bad town, that's scummy as hell. Giving a reason that you don't believe when you jumped on an easy wagon with no real outside contribution and NOW you're producing a mile a minute of text. No.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Unvote if it'll get your panties untwisted for a minute.

This will be going back on before deadline if we don't find a better lynch. Because, to be honest, you're right, I would prefer a Tery or Inferno lynch at this point. If you want to help me make that happen, then go ahead, but no one else seems to be as bothered by their bull**** as I am.

And we're not No Lynching.

Tery is a way better lynch than Infern and I'm willing to go that route if that's the only other candidate people are willing to entertain, though at this point it's so late in the day I doubt we'll get the votes.

But if everyone who is online now stays online for awhile and we can get a claim out of tery and discuss it for a few hours with THIS many people here, I'd say we could have a worthwhile lynch. Anything short of that is absolutely worse than a No Lynch.

The point that you yourself hopped onto AB's wagon opportunistically.

It wasn't opportunistically. There's a huge ****ing difference between being opportunistic and just being late to the wagon. I was busy the past for days legitimately, though I don't expect you to believe that, but even a reasonable person should understand that an academically and extracurricularly involved person is going to have jam packed weekends, and just FYI Fri, Sat, and Sun comprise three of the 4 days I didn't post, and not that you would know, but I'm straight booked with not a minute of free time of **** to do from 10 AM to 10 PM on Mondays.

Yeah, it's RL johns. I got nothing else. The real point is though, I had voiced my suspicion of AB FAR before I voted him, so I seriously don't ****ing understand how I'm being made out to be the opportunistic monster who jumped out at the last minute to seal a lynch. I mean ****, all I even did was pressure for a claim. I even said if AB had a good claim I was willing to hit Boat. Like come the **** on, you guys have a hard on for saying I did all this **** that I never did.

And yes, I absolutely was/am piggybacking. Get over it. I made that post when we had less than 12 hours before deadline. I was and still am basically in "prevent no lynch" mode. You had 3 votes on you when I voted you, one being cleared AB and one being OS, the game's most vocal and forceful player all Day. Like it or not, your lynch was the one that was happening, and still probably is.

Because I basically wasn't suspicious of you at all until you popped out of nowhere to hop on AB's wagon a day before deadline when you had basically spent all game out of the public eye. And I had no problem with someone like you staying out of the public eye for a while, but that move was unreal. AB is right when he says a player like you should know better. TownFrozen following that wagon like that doesn't make nearly as much sense to me as ScumFrozen trying to solidify the lynch and hoping it's too late for anyone to call him on it.

Well there's two of your problems. You think I "came out of nowhere" with my suspicions of AB and you're stuck in "prevent no lynch mode." One shows you fundamentally haven't comprehended everything that has been said this game, and the other shows that you seriously don't understand good town strategy.

Maybe if I actually did jump out of no where without ever having voiced support for an AB lynch and just jumped on saying "let's go for it", you concluding I was obv scum would make sense. Actually, I can't even think of a way I'd be able to defend myself if I did that. But yeah, that's not the situation we have here.

Your wagon was rolling. Your vote on AB was disgusting. You've been null to me all game, which is why you never saw me pressing you until after your totally transparent AB hop. But I have no problem with you being our alternative lynch, even if you're not my first choice, because I've been bringing up how much I don't like Tery and Inferno all game and hardly anyone else has even batted an eyelash at either of them. I would be a fool to expect people to switch to one of my choices at this point. It's called compromising.

Dude, other people have voiced suspicions of Tery all game. I mean ****, he was our first wagon before we moved to AB. How did you NOT think a tery wagon wouldn't start up again? Tery was MY first vote too! Like seriously, you're painting a scenario that simply ISN'T ACCURATE to what has actually been going on. Based on what people have actually said and done this game, a move the would have made sense coming from you WOULD have been slapping that Tery vote down and rekindling the wagon, not just jumping ship to me all willy nilly.

But seriously, think about what you're saying to me. My vote on you, half a day before deadline, when you were already halfway toward the vote majority, is scummy and opportunistic, even though you're already basically guaranteed to be going down anyway. But your vote on AB, a day before deadline and four straight days since your last post, is not? Back when you voted AB, we may have actually had some time to find a better option. At this point, we hardly do. You plopped your vote on AB because you thought it would seal his fate as the lynch candidate, and now you're pissed that it backfired on you. You seriously didn't have a single thing to say to anybody for four days, but when deadline starts closing in you vote for AB out of the blue to try to make sure we can't switch to anyone else. And you give basically no reasoning other than "I agree with OS."

I explained most of this in my first paragraph here, but with regards to the "I agree with OS" thing, what the **** do you want me to do? Lie and make up some new bull**** just so I can be new and edgy? Like seriously wtf, is it scummy now to simply resonate with another person's opinion and openly admit that you agree with what they're saying?

But yeah, your point about Tery randomly popping in to be a rules whistle blower after being a non presence for so long after his wagon faded is a legit one. Him and Boat can totally go.

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

...

How can you folks be seriously push a no lynch when we have so many scummy players to wade through?

 

[Circus]

This No Lynch stuff seriously goes against everything that any veteran has ever said to me regarding lynches and deadlines. Like, I don't even know how this is being legitimately discussed. Even if we don't get to talk about it much beforehand, we get to talk about Frozen's flip plenty afterward, which is the whole point behind the theory. It is good for town to see flips, period. No lynching and allowing scum to pick the first death takes control out of town's hands and allows scum to steer the game. This is BAD. And of all the mafia vets that I respect, this is all I've ever heard them say.

Someone who's opinion I actually respect and who isn't Frozen since he has every reason to flail needs to sell me on a No Lynch if I'm going to be cool with it. Because this No Lynch movement feels completely wrong to me. I'm willing to lynch Frozen. I'm willing to lynch someone other than Frozen. I'm not willing to No Lynch. Flips are too beneficial to just sit on our hands and let scum decide which ones we see.

What a cluster****.

 

[Xatres]

...

How can you folks be seriously push a no lynch when we have so many scummy players to wade through?

Because we only have 6 hours left in which to wade through ALL those players and hope to hit the right one. It's all there in my post.

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

~Gheb reporting in again [next couple of posts will all be from me].

Frozen, I obviously don't think you're bad at mafia. But you have been playing outstandingly bad in this game and if you're being honest to yourself you can't really deny that. Circus hit the nail on the head when he called your vote on our playerslot "disgusting". Did you actually think that longass post OS posted had any kind of merit in it? I consider you one of the players that are actually smart enough to see through the "write as much as possible to make superficial dumbfvcks happy" crap that OS pulls ALL THE TIME.

 

[Analytical Buttheads]

Xatres, Raziek - if you two guys don't vote for a PLAYER by the end of this Day phase I will make you two regret having ever signed up to play this game.

Nobody - and I mean liteally nobody - could earnestly be dumb enough to think that it's better to not lynch anybody than to lynch at least Boatchouli.

 

[Raziek]

Ehhh, you're probably right about that.

unvote

 

[Xatres]

Here's a question:

@AB: Do you find it at all suspect that after pushing hard for your lynch and repeatedly telling you that your case against FF was garbage, that OS would just turn around and tell everyone to follow you blindly? Do you think that's at all opportunistic? Who benefits from town following one player without debate?

Or how about this: Didn't you tell everyone not to trust a word OS says? Aren't you still making it a point to show that his case against you was terrible? Do you think you should be comfortable with people following his lead on the FF wagon?

Honestly, if people aren't down for a No Lynch, then the lynch I'd be most comfortable with, right now, at this moment, is one against OS.