Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm skeptical that ledge drop has any invincibility frames.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I have made an interesting discovery regarding buffered up aerials.

It seemed that there was only one way to get consistent short hop buffered aerials, and that was to use tap jump and the "double stick" method. With tap jump on, you can hit the control stick up and the c-stick up (if it's set to attack) and get a buffered up air. Other methods require fast hands, run the risk of getting a full jump, are often not frame perfect due to hand movement requirements, and could not generally produce frame perfect up airs. I have another method here:

First, as a definition, "control stick throw" is in reference to the amount the control stick is tilted in a given direction. This method requires X or Y as jump, and A as attack, or an equivalent setup.

It seems there are three degrees of control stick throw: low throw, mid throw, and full throw. Here's the setup:
Slide your hand from X to A with the control stick at a given throw.

At low throw, you get a short hop buffered neutral air
At mid throw, you get a short hop buffered up air
At full throw, you get a jump cancelled up smash

This aligns with a method described previously, but it adds an element (control stick throw) that allows for frame perfect up airs without tap jump, fast c-sticking, or delicate shoulder button short hop finesse. I'll be giving this a go and seeing how difficult it is to use. Note: for ZSS, this allows her to do a buffered short hop up air... then jump again or land with regular landing lag (2 frames slow land, 4 frames fast fall).

EDIT -

This doesn't seem to work out of shield for characters that posses a Zair. I'll look into this a bit more and update.

 

[icraq]

I'm skeptical that ledge drop has any invincibility frames.

The data dump stuff isn't always accurate or, rather, my own interpretations of it isn't. I don't have a way to test it so I'm really just going off what the parameters file says.

Also I'm assuming subactions 10A and 10B are the two ledge drops.

Something I've learned is there's an infinite variety of ways for me to be wrong.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

EDIT: Did more testing, unhappy with the results. Turns out that Sakurai was right about Air Time affecting ledge invincibility, but it was in the opposite way I expected it to. The longer it's been since you touched the ground, the more invincibility you have when you hang on the ledge. If someone at 150% runs off the stage and grabs the ledge as soon as possible, they have the minimum amount of ledge invincibility of about 20 frames (if you buffer a ledge option, you're still not vulnerable before that action happens).

If you get hit by a strong hit to the blast zone or just stall for a couple seconds, you gain a lot more invincibility; seems like its up to about an extra 60 frames if you wait extra-long. A Jigglypuff at 150% can stall with a couple jumps and a Pound and have over a full second of invincibility, while doing the same at 0% lets her be invincible for literally two whole seconds.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Update on the buffered short hop up air thing:

Forget all that junk I said before. It's junk! (OK, knowing there are 3 control stick throws of importance could warrant more research... BUT NOT NOW).

Turns out, this guy had a conversation with @ Remzi on reddit and they made an epic finding: L to jump, tap jump off, c-stick to attack. Do that, then do this:

L + Control Stick UP + C-Stick UP

Do that at once and you get a buffered up air. Apparently throwing the control stick up + jump mimics the double stick effect. This yields buffered short hop up airs for all! This also works out of shield for everyone that does not have a Zair. So, for people like ZSS... well, that's still a mystery.

Shoutouts to the ZSS boards, I love those guys. Credit to the above and not me, ha ha.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

This isn't entirely correct btw. It's not all about how long you've been in the air. Another very important factor is how long it's been since you've been hit. So e.g. if Link gets hit far off screen then pulls out a bomb, then uses the bomb explosion to aid in his recovery, grabbing the ledge soon after the explosion, he won't receive anywhere near as much invincibility frames on the ledge than if the bomb blast didn't hit him.

Edit: To clarify further, the other factor is how long it's been since you were last in hitlag/stun, so Fox's blaster shots don't count, whereas Mega Man's pellets do.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Good to know! I'll put an annotation in the video adding that. I appreciate the heads-up.

 

[teluoborg]

Update on the buffered short hop up air thing:

Forget all that junk I said before. It's junk! (OK, knowing there are 3 control stick throws of importance could warrant more research... BUT NOT NOW).

Turns out, this guy had a conversation with @ Remzi on reddit and they made an epic finding: L to jump, tap jump off, c-stick to attack. Do that, then do this:

L + Control Stick UP + C-Stick UP

Do that at once and you get a buffered up air. Apparently throwing the control stick up + jump mimics the double stick effect. This yields buffered short hop up airs for all! This also works out of shield for everyone that does not have a Zair. So, for people like ZSS... well, that's still a mystery.

Shoutouts to the ZSS boards, I love those guys. Credit to the above and not me, ha ha.

If your C stick is set on Attack then you don't need to press up on the control stick. And if you can claw you don't even need to set up a shoulder button to jump. It's completely possible to hit the X button with the first phalanx of your pointing finger while pressing C stick up with your thumb. You could probably Uair OOS with ZSS using this technique.

And your thing about the control stick throws is correct, it's something that has been around since Brawl and that I personally find obsolete due to smash 4's garbage stick sensitivity.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't suppose anyone understands the current vectoring/DI combination well enough to make a chart of how much the simplified "optimal" DI of holding Left/Right actually changes the trajectory at different angles...?

Also, somewhat relevant with the wall teching stuff; apparently if knockback is somewhat parallel to a wall, frame synching hitlag so it's impossible to tech never happens, so you can tech at any point on the way down for most meteors if it's a vertical wall:

 

[thehard]

This isn't entirely correct btw. It's not all about how long you've been in the air. Another very important factor is how long it's been since you've been hit. So e.g. if Link gets hit far off screen then pulls out a bomb, then uses the bomb explosion to aid in his recovery, grabbing the ledge soon after the explosion, he won't receive anywhere near as much invincibility frames on the ledge than if the bomb blast didn't hit him.

Edit: To clarify further, the other factor is how long it's been since you were last in hitlag/stun, so Fox's blaster shots don't count, whereas Mega Man's pellets do.

I really feel like this should be common knowledge

 

[topspin1617]

I tried searching this topic, and the question is simple but I couldn't find it, hopefully I didn't miss it...

Anyway, my question concerns the ledge get-up. How many frames are there before you can act (e.g., shield) when standing up from the ledge? Also, has this number been changed in any patch? I ask because I feel like I'm getting nailed by attacks more often than I used to when trying to stand and shield. And of course I know you have to mix it up, not being too predictable with how you get off the ledge... what I mean is not an issue of an opponent learning my patterns and making reads, just that across all games I get hit by attacks and find myself asking "how in the world did my shield not come up in time to block that?"

I thought I had read that it's one frame, but that may have been about something else.

Bonus question: A stupid question, but inputting the ledge stand up and then immediately holding my shield button should activate the shield on the first possible frame, correct?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I tried searching this topic, and the question is simple but I couldn't find it, hopefully I didn't miss it...

Anyway, my question concerns the ledge get-up. How many frames are there before you can act (e.g., shield) when standing up from the ledge? Also, has this number been changed in any patch? I ask because I feel like I'm getting nailed by attacks more often than I used to when trying to stand and shield. And of course I know you have to mix it up, not being too predictable with how you get off the ledge... what I mean is not an issue of an opponent learning my patterns and making reads, just that across all games I get hit by attacks and find myself asking "how in the world did my shield not come up in time to block that?"

I thought I had read that it's one frame, but that may have been about something else.

Bonus question: A stupid question, but inputting the ledge stand up and then immediately holding my shield button should activate the shield on the first possible frame, correct?

Depends on the character, but Ledge Climb is usually between 30 and 34 frames, and there's something like 2 frames of endlag on it. The numbers haven't changed since launch.

 

[jmjb]

from standing on the ground, how fast can a NAir be pulled off? for example, if a NAir is 3 frames, does that mean you can go from ground to NAir in 3 frames? or does the jump require extra frames before the NAir can be inputted?

 

[NickRiddle]

Every character has different jump-squat frames that have to finish before the nair animation can start.

 

[jmjb]

oh i wasnt aware of that. so my character would have to have 0 of those to he able to pull out a NAir instantly?
the character I'm curious about is Villager.
is there a list of how many of those jump-squat frames your mentioned?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

oooops, david is riiiiight
A mod might wanna delete my sudden ***********

 

[David Viran]

Mainly to @ Shaya because of the MU and to whoever feels qualified, I fought one of the better German Ganondorfs today who has a Marth secondary.
We played for about 7 hours straight and thanks to him being quite a bit better than I am, I really learned a lot of stuff.
I could deal with his Ganondorf after a while (I didn't know Ganondorf has that many low lag moves) but his Marth took me quite a bit longer. He plays an ultra aggressive read based Marth with a lot of DB mixed in.

When we approached the end of our session, I finally got the use of zAir down in the MU and it helped a lot. What still boggles my mind though is how useless all my aerial approaches looked. Like he punished every single advancing nAir and most fAirs and bAirs too. My only answer to DB was rolling. I could basically never punish his recovery and he had an easy time edge guarding me.
Recovering low always resulted in run off fAir > dolphin slash stage spike. He managed to cover nearly all of my getup options from the ledge all the time.

So help me out here please, what the hell do I do in the neutral against Marth aside from zAir, because I sure as hell can't think of anything aside from punishing laggy moves and landings with grab/OOS booskick and some sTilts.

Err wrong thread.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

oh i wasnt aware of that. so my character would have to have 0 of those to he able to pull out a NAir instantly?
the character I'm curious about is Villager.
is there a list of how many of those jump-squat frames your mentioned?

Sixriver has a compilation of frame data, though it's missing damage, knockback values, and angles. Kurogane Hammer is also a great resource, but they haven't updated Villager yet.

To answer your question: Villager has 5 jump squat frames. His neutral air's first hitbox comes out on frame 3. So, for Villager to neutral air, your first hitbox will come out in 5 + 3 = 8 frames.

Also, no character in this game has an instant move. Zero Suit Samus and Little Mac get close with jabs that come out on frame 1.

 

[Player-1]

Is the timing from when you can grab an edge after you get hit 30 frames or 50 frames or something different? I've heard both 30 and 50, but wasn't sure what was right.

 

[ぱみゅ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYZYfsWBqcg
This video says it's 50, and it's the one that's supposed to be the original research. Though 50 frames is about a full second.

 

[Fanttum]

Hey guys,
Seeing how @ TheReflexWonder wanted all of us Georgians to make SB accounts, thought I would ask some technical questions here.

First up is are we sure how Stale Moves work in this game yet?
From what I have read everyone has said it is just like brawl, but have seen no real research.

I under stand there is a freshness bonus of 1.05x damage that also applies to knockback, and there was a queue system that scaled back that multiple. Is that queue still the 9 last moves that hit? Does that multiple stay the same for both damage and knickknack or does it differ? Is it applied to base knock back? Does it have any different relationship to knock back growth? Is rage applied before or after that multiple?

Also what about multi hit moves? For example kirby's down air. Does it just count as just one hit in the queue? What about if only partial hit boxes hit? Such as any quirks when a move is interrupted by an attack/grab, landing, or only the last hit connects etc.

I also heard about items not working into stale moves, but this also begs to answer the question about multi hit projectile moves. How will bowser's fire go into the queue, sheik's needles, and some of robin's thunder moves?

Thanks for any and all help, and I would love to help test things if I can. But I am not sure the best ways to go about this.

 

[topspin1617]

Depends on the character, but Ledge Climb is usually between 30 and 34 frames, and there's something like 2 frames of endlag on it. The numbers haven't changed since launch.

Hmm okay... when you say 2 frames of endlag, do you mean those are the only vulnerability frames? Or are you vulnerable during part of that 30-34?

 

[Remzi]

Hey guys,
Seeing how @ TheReflexWonder wanted all of us Georgians to make SB accounts, thought I would ask some technical questions here.

First up is are we sure how Stale Moves work in this game yet?
From what I have read everyone has said it is just like brawl, but have seen no real research.

I under stand there is a freshness bonus of 1.05x damage that also applies to knockback, and there was a queue system that scaled back that multiple. Is that queue still the 9 last moves that hit? Does that multiple stay the same for both damage and knickknack or does it differ? Is it applied to base knock back? Does it have any different relationship to knock back growth? Is rage applied before or after that multiple?

Also what about multi hit moves? For example kirby's down air. Does it just count as just one hit in the queue? What about if only partial hit boxes hit? Such as any quirks when a move is interrupted by an attack/grab, landing, or only the last hit connects etc.

I also heard about items not working into stale moves, but this also begs to answer the question about multi hit projectile moves. How will bowser's fire go into the queue, sheik's needles, and some of robin's thunder moves?

Thanks for any and all help, and I would love to help test things if I can. But I am not sure the best ways to go about this.

The effect of stale moves certainly feels weaker in this game. I've been told that the queue is smaller (only 3 moves or something like that) but I haven't done the research myself. I'm interested in the answer as well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Hmm okay... when you say 2 frames of endlag, do you mean those are the only vulnerability frames? Or are you vulnerable during part of that 30-34?

I think only the last frame of the animation is vulnerable (like Frame 31 of a 31-frame animation), but you can't buffer an option directly out of a Ledge Climb, so even if you're holding Shield, that input isn't registered until Frame 32, where it requires one frame to start, so a shield would come out on Frame 33.

First up is are we sure how Stale Moves work in this game yet?
From what I have read everyone has said it is just like brawl, but have seen no real research.

I under stand there is a freshness bonus of 1.05x damage that also applies to knockback, and there was a queue system that scaled back that multiple. Is that queue still the 9 last moves that hit? Does that multiple stay the same for both damage and knickknack or does it differ? Is it applied to base knock back? Does it have any different relationship to knock back growth? Is rage applied before or after that multiple?

Also what about multi hit moves? For example kirby's down air. Does it just count as just one hit in the queue? What about if only partial hit boxes hit? Such as any quirks when a move is interrupted by an attack/grab, landing, or only the last hit connects etc.

I also heard about items not working into stale moves, but this also begs to answer the question about multi hit projectile moves. How will bowser's fire go into the queue, sheik's needles, and some of robin's thunder moves?

Thanks for any and all help, and I would love to help test things if I can. But I am not sure the best ways to go about this.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Stale-move_negation#In_SSB4

All stale moves does it reduce the damage dealt, which, in turn, reduces the knockback, because damage on the hit that sends people away is part of the knockback formula. Ganondorf F-Air sweetspot deals 17% in earlier versions of Smash 4 and 18% in Version 1.10, and a victim of Ganondorf F-Air at 70% in 1.04 flies further than a victim at 69% in 1.10.

The reason it seems less significant in Smash 4 than in Brawl is because there are fewer ways to mitigate knockback. No momentum canceling is a big one, and DI having less of an effect/being less flexible than in Brawl is also a big one.

Freshness bonus runs on the same queue, yes. Like staleness, it only applies to damage. I think Rage would be applied the same way no matter where it sat on the formula.

Multi-hit moves only add one to the staleness queue whether they hit once or five times, or whether the attack was interrupted halfway through. Staleness is not applied when it hits a shield.

Bonus development:

http://gfycat.com/HonestSlipperyAnophelesmosquito

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Update on the buffered short hop up air thing:

Forget all that junk I said before. It's junk! (OK, knowing there are 3 control stick throws of importance could warrant more research... BUT NOT NOW).

Turns out, this guy had a conversation with @ Remzi on reddit and they made an epic finding: L to jump, tap jump off, c-stick to attack. Do that, then do this:

L + Control Stick UP + C-Stick UP

Do that at once and you get a buffered up air. Apparently throwing the control stick up + jump mimics the double stick effect. This yields buffered short hop up airs for all! This also works out of shield for everyone that does not have a Zair. So, for people like ZSS... well, that's still a mystery.

Shoutouts to the ZSS boards, I love those guys. Credit to the above and not me, ha ha.

So, how would you buffer FH Aerials? If that is possible.

 

[Pikabunz]

So, how would you buffer FH Aerials? If that is possible.

Hold jump and use an aerial. Also, can't you just tilt up and press jump>attack to do buffer uairs?

 

[Lavani]

Also, can't you just tilt up and press jump>attack to do buffer uairs?

You can. It has to be a really soft tilt though, otherwise you'll end up doing a JC usmash instead.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Any tips on buffering inputs? For example, mashing A when snapping the ledge to get a buffered get-up attack. I want to be able to buffer most of my inputs since I play very reactionary so that would help alot. Like frame perfect FH after dash attack, etc

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You can't buffer more than one button input at any given time, so if you're trying to buffer jumping aerials, you must buffer the jump and then press Attack during jumpsquat frames (or as soon as possible if done in the air).

 

[I speak Spanish too]

You can't buffer more than one button input at any given time, so if you're trying to buffer jumping aerials, you must buffer the jump and then press Attack during jumpsquat frames (or as soon as possible if done in the air).

Yeah, I know I was just wondering if anybody had a specific method of performing said input, in which they have the most success. I'm aware of how the buffer system works I just want to know want methods people use to have high success while buffering.

 

[busken]

Options out of a Dash:

• Jump
  
  
• Dash Attack
  
  
• Dash Grab
  
  
• Side Special
  
  
• Fox Trot
  
  
• Dash Dance
  
  
• Pivot
  

Options out of a Run:

• Jump
  
  
• Dash Attack
  
  
• Dash Grab
  
  
• Any Special
  
  
• Shield
  
  
• Turn
  
  
• Pivot Grab
  
  
• Skid
  

Options out of a Jump:

• Double Jump
  
  
• Aerial
  
  
• Fastfall
  
  
• Any Special
  
  
• Air dodge
  
  
• Momentum Influence
  

Options out of a walk:

• Any tilt, jab, smash attack
  
  
• Any special
  
  
• Shield

Anything I'm missing?

 

[Fanttum]

So the queue is likely the same size as brawl?

Also any clue what luma counts as?
Would a forward smash that only hits from luma effect the next forward smash that only connects from rosa?
I doubt they would have separate queues, but ice climbers had some slightly different effects according to that wiki page.

Bonus development:

http://gfycat.com/HonestSlipperyAnophelesmosquito

Looks like Scatt was entering the ledge grab animation,

Spoiler

Then got hit.

Spoiler

Doesn't that move trip? Is it possible the game thought he was on the ledge, then somehow tripped under the stage?
Or maybe the hit interrupted the ledge snap and once in hit animation mega man's origin point was moved enough to where it landed on platform below. Does that flying platform still exist once it goes into the halberd itself?

During mega man's hit animation his collision detection might be altered.

Spoiler

Looks like his origin point (where it checks for ground collision) might be more to the left then the left side collision.

This is just speculation, but it does look like the tip of the foot is where it checks for the ground while in hurt animation.

Just some ideas...

 

[Lavani]

Rosalina and Luma stale their attacks separately from each other, and Luma's own queue is refreshed after respawning.

 

[Jaxas]

So the queue is likely the same size as brawl?

Also any clue what luma counts as?
Would a forward smash that only hits from luma effect the next forward smash that only connects from rosa?
I doubt they would have separate queues, but ice climbers had some slightly different effects according to that wiki page.



Looks like Scatt was entering the ledge grab animation,

Spoiler

Then got hit.

Spoiler

Doesn't that move trip? Is it possible the game thought he was on the ledge, then somehow tripped under the stage?
Or maybe the hit interrupted the ledge snap and once in hit animation mega man's origin point was moved enough to where it landed on platform below. Does that flying platform still exist once it goes into the halberd itself?

During mega man's hit animation his collision detection might be altered.

Spoiler

Looks like his origin point (where it checks for ground collision) might be more to the left then the left side collision.

This is just speculation, but it does look like the tip of the foot is where it checks for the ground while in hurt animation.

Just some ideas...

No idea if it'll be helpful at all, but I did some research on this back on 3DS forever ago.
I never actually finished it, but...

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-wip-stale-move-negation.368249/

 

[Fanttum]

Rosalina and Luma stale their attacks separately from each other, and Luma's own queue is refreshed after respawning.

Interesting!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Looks like Scatt was entering the ledge grab animation,

Spoiler

Then got hit.

Spoiler

Doesn't that move trip? Is it possible the game thought he was on the ledge, then somehow tripped under the stage?
Or maybe the hit interrupted the ledge snap and once in hit animation mega man's origin point was moved enough to where it landed on platform below. Does that flying platform still exist once it goes into the halberd itself?

During mega man's hit animation his collision detection might be altered.

Spoiler

Looks like his origin point (where it checks for ground collision) might be more to the left then the left side collision.

This is just speculation, but it does look like the tip of the foot is where it checks for the ground while in hurt animation.

Just some ideas...

Well, grabbing the ledge is still considered an aerial state, iirc, so it can't be tripping. If it's character-specific, it's likely affected by opponent's weight and fall speed. I can't check it right now because I don't have my Wii U at the moment. :/

 

[Lavani]

I recall @ Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ posting a video about that Halberd glitch around the time of Wii U release, though without the help of a second character:

It's a character specific thing, apparently.

 

[Fanttum]

So looks like an animated collision thing to me then.
Seeing as yoshi used Fair, which flips him, changing around parts of the collision.
This also was a thing in brawl that some moves could clip past.

Spoiler

But seems like there was another similar instance with Wario in it.
http://smashboards.com/threads/villager-invisible-ledge-glitch.384666/
Which doesn't narrow things down for us...

 

[Big O]

I think only the last frame of the animation is vulnerable (like Frame 31 of a 31-frame animation), but you can't buffer an option directly out of a Ledge Climb, so even if you're holding Shield, that input isn't registered until Frame 32, where it requires one frame to start, so a shield would come out on Frame 33.

I just wanted to point out that not being able to buffer out of a Ledge Climb doesn't stop you from being able to shield frame 32 in your example. I'm not sure that you can't buffer moves during Ledge Climbs (AFAIK only buffering a Ledge Climb is impossible), but let's assume you can't. All that means is the 10 frame window for inputs turns into a 1 frame window. Only glitches like Brawl's dead frame during jump squat prevent you from inputting stuff immediately after an action ends.

Basically the 1 frame window of vulnerability is in fact only 1 frame, not 2.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

After messing with it more it seems collision based, and at closer inspection might be pretty abusable as a stalling tactic.. I was able to get in with Jigg's bair, Fox Illusion and Sheik's bair.

edit: about the Halberd clip thingie in case that wasn't clear.