Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[~ Gheb ~]

Some of you may have noticed that Villager's fsmash is obnoxiously safe on block despite how laggy the move seems to be. That's because the move is a projectile, which means that Villager does not suffer any shield hitlag from it while the opponent suffers a lot of shield stun. Is there any information available on how these two things work in smash 4? If I recall correctly, shieldstun and shield hitlag were move-specific traits in Brawl - is that still the case in smash 4? If so, are there any numbers available?

Also, I'll 100% behind referring to it as "frame syncing." Perfect sense.

Yeh, I kinda came up with that term and I encourage everybody to use it because frame cancel is the term Izaw came up with and it's totally stupid.

 

[Shaya]

hit lag modifiers as a scalar exists on hitboxes, and some other modifiers exist too, but they all scale with only one number: damage (dubious but shield knockback can apparently be affected by knockback).

Shield stun and shield hit lag will always be constistent with the same damage value. While hit lag stuff will affect the attacker even if it hits shield.

 

[Dutter]

Question! So I'm learning all the techniques to the best of my ability, and reading up on them is really helping but there's one technique that everyone seems to know how to do but I can't find the technical term for it and none of my friends know about it or how to do it. It's a sort of floating technique, kind of like a third jump that you can do out of or during a Fair, Bair, or Uair. What is it and how is it done?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Question! So I'm learning all the techniques to the best of my ability, and reading up on them is really helping but there's one technique that everyone seems to know how to do but I can't find the technical term for it and none of my friends know about it or how to do it. It's a sort of floating technique, kind of like a third jump that you can do out of or during a Fair, Bair, or Uair. What is it and how is it done?

No clue what you're talking about. There are almost no situations in the game where you can cancel aerials into other actions.

 

[Dutter]

Yeah, I'm sorry it's hard to explain. It's not a cancel it's during the attack, as the attack happens the character sort of floats up. I've done it on accident on occasions.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is it a footstool? If the opponent is doing an action, such as attacking or shielding, they are not affected by a footstool, and the footstooling character can act out of it instantly.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm looking into some ground bounce > attack combo-y stuff, and I'm looking for three things: Who flops around the least/lowest, who flops around the most/highest, and if anybody's hitbox goes high enough to avoid a Dsmash or something like that. Anybody know this off the top of their head?

 

[isaiah :)]

so has anyone been able to use Perfect pivoting successfully in game?

 

[DanGR]

so has anyone been able to use Perfect pivoting successfully in game?

As far back as December, Amsa has been using it.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JhUnn_9KDuA

 

[jmjb]

Are there any advantages to using vibrate or sound? If so what are they?
are you able to be altered to anything earlier than just watching the screen?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Realistically, no. It's personal preference.

 

[Horseketchup]

Is there a reference table for shieldstun, and what damage ranges equate to specific values of shieldstun? I think Big O created one a while back? Can I ask for it to be posted again?

Here's a screenshot of it:

Has there been anymore extensive testing done on shieldstun in this game? This was a long while ago, and though I trust he tested it pretty accurately it's hard to say for sure that these are the exact values. There could even be the remote possibility shieldstun was slightly altered in one of the patches, not sure if a change like that would be picked up in datamine though. But say it wouldn't be, a change that ends up resulting in like 1 frame of extra shieldstun for higher damage attacks could've possibly have gone unnoticed, especially since that's not something ppl would think to test for.

The fact that rolls/spot dodges were universally nerfed by a frame last patch shows that they're at least willing to make global nerfs to defensive options.

 

[A_Kae]

The formula is, as far as we know, damage/2.56. It doesn't match up with Big O's table, but getting precise shieldstun values is a very hard thing to be consistent and accurate with.

 

[Horseketchup]

The formula is, as far as we know, damage/2.56. It doesn't match up with Big O's table, but getting precise shieldstun values is a very hard thing to be consistent and accurate with.

Oh wow I didn't know there was even a rough formula yet, that's awesome. How exactly was this determined? Is there a thread or anything like that you could link about it?

EDIT: Actually assuming it's rounded down and not rounded up, to me it seems like this formula matches up almost exactly with Big O's list. The only one that didn't was 5% which would be "1.953" with that formula, making it 1 frame instead of 2 frame rounded down. But then again, that's so close to 2 that I feel like it could just be due to the formula being not quite exact as opposed to a mistake Big O made.

 

[⑨ball]

Do we have any formulas for hitlag?

I'm trying to understand how long a hitbox is extended when it hits something.

 

[thehard]

Gonna ask again.

Is there a chart for how much invincibility you get on the ledge 1. at high percents and 2. depending on your air time?

 

[jmjb]

Yeah, I'm sorry it's hard to explain. It's not a cancel it's during the attack, as the attack happens the character sort of floats up. I've done it on accident on occasions.

OHHH you're talking about a footstool! you press jump while you're basically standing on someone's head, this can be preformed in the air or on the ground. yeah it's a really cool mechanic that seems to come up ONLY by accident. if you can find some way to implement it into real game play, you'd get some mad style points!
fun fact: greninja actually has a move that makes a foot stool happen if it lands. it's his down air.

 

[Big O]

I've been doing some shieldstun stuff and I think some people would be interested in what I have so far. For moves that are not projectiles with 1.0x Hitlag Modifiers and non-electric elements, I obtained the following values for shieldstun. From what I can tell it is very similar to Brawl's shieldstun, but moves with higher damage seem to have a bit more.

Damage | Shieldstun
1-5 | 1
6-7 | 2
8-10 | 3
11-12 | 4
13-15 | 5
16-17 | 6
18 | 7
21 | 8
24-25 | 9
28 | 10
30 | 11

The screenshot of my table that is posted was before my edit where I filled in a few more numbers and fixed the 5 dmg shieldstun. Human error is always a factor though, so I won't claim to be 100% sure.

 

[Horseketchup]

Oh okay nice, well than it all seems like that formula makes sense

 

[A_Kae]

Do we have any formulas for hitlag?

I'm trying to understand how long a hitbox is extended when it hits something.

Hitlag is (((d/2.6)+5)*h*e)

D is the attack's damage
H is the attack's hitlag modifer
E is 1.5 if the attack has the electric attribute, or 1 if it doesn't.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Gonna ask again.

Is there a chart for how much invincibility you get on the ledge 1. at high percents and 2. depending on your air time?

I believe that at the highest percents, you have only slightly more invincibility than the minimum time you're forced to grab the ledge (at least 22 frames, probably at/fewer than 30 frames), and at the lowest percents it's about a full 60 frames. It's probably on a scale similar to Rage.

As far as I know, #2 is a myth brought up in pre-release notes that doesn't actually happen; it appears to be entirely based on how much damage you currently have. I imagine I would have noted a difference, considering I was maining Jigglypuff at the time I first checked.

 

[Pikabunz]

I'm pretty sure #2 is true.

 

[Big O]

Gonna ask again.

Is there a chart for how much invincibility you get on the ledge 1. at high percents and 2. depending on your air time?

There is no chart, but the higher your damage and the less air time you have, the shorter the invincibility will be. A clear difference can be seen between instant ledge hugging ledge snaps and jumping/falling into a ledge snap after while in the air, especially at higher %'s.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'll take a look soon and try to confirm the relationship between those two factors and invincibility frames. Is it air time in the immediate time prior to grabbing the ledge, or how much time it's been since your feet last touched the ground, or...?

 

[san.]

I really forgot about the air time thing. I do remember some tests that were made during the 3DS era that seemed to confirm both.

 

[Dagon97]

Is there a list of hitlag modifiers and how much the hitlag modifier affects hitlag?

 

[⑨ball]

Is there a list of hitlag modifiers and how much the hitlag modifier affects hitlag?

This is fairly old(1.04) so keep that in mind: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
The master core is probably a better look but I haven't checked how visible things like hitlag are.

Hitlag is (((d/2.6)+5)*h*e)

D is the attack's damage
H is the attack's hitlag modifer
E is 1.5 if the attack has the electric attribute, or 1 if it doesn't.

Danke danke.

Can I just say Wario having a 30 frame fart is bonkers? I knew it was crazy active but jeeeeeez.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Hey all,

I'm looking for an up-to-date, aggregate collection of the damage each move does. Sixriver has an awesome collection of frame data that I'm creating an automatic sorting/updating... thing for. Thinkaman has something close to what I'm looking for, but it is not in a consistent form. @ KuroganeHammer has this site prepared, which is the only one that contains both damage values and knockback values, but it isn't downloadable or complete (though at their current rate, it looks... one month away?).

Eventually I'd like to aggregate everything for data mining purposes, since I believe there is still much to learn from it. However, for now, aggregate damage values for all moves is what I seek for a particularly large project.

In the same line of thought: how does charging a smash effect the damage it does?

 

[⑨ball]

@ Dr. Tuen

Your best bet for something both accurate and complete is Dantarion 's MasterCore3.
You'll have to pick through each character yourself, but the datas all there and up to date.

You can probably borrow whatever Kurogane has and then substitute what's missing with your own search.

 

[A_Kae]

Hey all,

I'm looking for an up-to-date, aggregate collection of the damage each move does. Sixriver has an awesome collection of frame data that I'm creating an automatic sorting/updating... thing for. Thinkaman has something close to what I'm looking for, but it is not in a consistent form. @ KuroganeHammer has this site prepared, which is the only one that contains both damage values and knockback values, but it isn't downloadable or complete (though at their current rate, it looks... one month away?).

Eventually I'd like to aggregate everything for data mining purposes, since I believe there is still much to learn from it. However, for now, aggregate damage values for all moves is what I seek for a particularly large project.

In the same line of thought: how does charging a smash effect the damage it does?

Mastercore is the best (only) option for correct, up to date damage data. http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/

For smash charge multiplier: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-attack-charge-multiplier.368479/

 

[KuroganeHammer]

The formula is, as far as we know, damage/2.56. It doesn't match up with Big O's table, but getting precise shieldstun values is a very hard thing to be consistent and accurate with.

It's actually floor[damage/2.56] (supposedly)

I have to test it myself, but I don't have equipment to test absurd % numbers like 200 attack Warlock Punch, and 200 attack fully charged bucket.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

@ Dr. Tuen

Your best bet for something both accurate and complete is Dantarion 's MasterCore3.
You'll have to pick through each character yourself, but the datas all there and up to date.

You can probably borrow whatever Kurogane has and then substitute what's missing with your own search.

Mastercore is the best (only) option for correct, up to date damage data. http://opensa.dantarion.com/s4/mastercore3/

For smash charge multiplier: http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-attack-charge-multiplier.368479/

Thanks for the help, I'll seek to pull the well organize/parsed data from @ KuroganeHammer as a start, and get the other values from Master Core or individual boards that may already have 1.1.0 damage data.

Also, as a practice, I do not every claim full credit on projects I complete that need outside help. Everywhere that I pull data from will be referenced appropriately.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Thanks for the help, I'll seek to pull the well organize/parsed data from @ KuroganeHammer as a start, and get the other values from Master Core or individual boards that may already have 1.1.0 damage data.

Also, as a practice, I do not every claim full credit on projects I complete that need outside help. Everywhere that I pull data from will be referenced appropriately.

you might find this ****ty calculator helpful when doing moves that don't have proper damage values in master core

http://kuroganehammer.com/aeromaths.html

 

[franniested]

Has anyone created any type of chart showing how many pummels can be executed without grab releasing at different percents? I tend to refrain from pummels often for fear of losing my throw. As a ness main, it's one of my biggest downfalls, and it would be great to know.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I realized that I did my previous ledge invincibility testing in Training Mode, which may not keep track of Air Time, number of ledge grabs, etc., so I decided to try testing in Versus Mode (or whatever you want to call it).

Just played a 5-minute game as Jigglypuff against a Level 9 CPU Mario on Battlefield where I did very little outside of stalling in the air with jumps and Forward-B. I took about 60% damage the whole time, and I won the match (killed him once; he slowly but surely took damage from Pound and rising aerials). Most of the time I refreshed ledge invincibility by expending most of my jumps and airdodging into the edge of a platform, so I was on the stage for an incredibly short amount of time, and I tried to vary the amount of jumps/time between ledge grabs a great deal. There was at least a full minute where the only button I pressed was Jump, just in case it ran on the "Drought" statistic, as well.

I didn't notice any significant differences arising as a result of anything but damage. Even at 40-ish%, and four minutes into the match, stalling in the air for about ten seconds and grabbing the ledge for the hundredth time gave me about 60 frames of invincibility.

EDIT: Did more testing, unhappy with the results. Turns out that Sakurai was right about Air Time affecting ledge invincibility, but it was in the opposite way I expected it to. The longer it's been since you touched the ground, the more invincibility you have when you hang on the ledge. If someone at 150% runs off the stage and grabs the ledge as soon as possible, they have the minimum amount of ledge invincibility of about 20 frames (if you buffer a ledge option, you're still not vulnerable before that action happens).

If you get hit by a strong hit to the blast zone or just stall for a couple seconds, you gain a lot more invincibility; seems like about an extra 60 frames. A Jigglypuff at 150% can stall with a couple jumps and a Pound and have over a full second of invincibility, while doing the same at 0% lets her be invincible for literally two whole seconds.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I realized that I did my previous ledge invincibility testing in Training Mode, which may not keep track of Air Time, number of ledge grabs, etc., so I decided to try testing in Versus Mode (or whatever you want to call it).

Just played a 5-minute game as Jigglypuff against a Level 9 CPU Mario on Battlefield where I did very little outside of stalling in the air with jumps and Forward-B. I took about 60% damage the whole time, and I won the match (killed him once; he slowly but surely took damage from Pound and rising aerials). Most of the time I refreshed ledge invincibility by expending most of my jumps and airdodging into the edge of a platform, so I was on the stage for an incredibly short amount of time, and I tried to vary the amount of jumps/time between ledge grabs a great deal. There was at least a full minute where the only button I pressed was Jump, just in case it ran on the "Drought" statistic, as well.

I didn't notice any significant differences arising as a result of anything but damage. Even at 40-ish%, and four minutes into the match, stalling in the air for about ten seconds and grabbing the ledge for the hundredth time gave me about 60 frames of invincibility.

EDIT: Did more testing, unhappy with the results. Turns out that Sakurai was right about Air Time affecting ledge invincibility, but it was in the opposite way I expected it to. The longer it's been since you touched the ground, the more invincibility you have when you hang on the ledge. If someone at 150% runs off the stage and grabs the ledge as soon as possible, they have the minimum amount of ledge invincibility of about 20 frames (if you buffer a ledge option, you're still not vulnerable before that action happens).

If you get hit by a strong hit to the blast zone or just stall for a couple seconds, you gain a lot more invincibility; seems like it's up to about an extra 60 frames, depending on how long you're in the air. A Jigglypuff at 150% can stall with a couple jumps and a Pound and have over a full second of invincibility, while doing the same at 0% lets her be invincible for literally two whole seconds.

Thanks for the research. I'll have to look into this one day.

 

[Shaya]

And ledge actions stack/overlap with it?
IIRC a ledge jump's invincibility runs out the moment you can act, so I'm guessing I wouldn't be getting 2 seconds of invincibility from a buffered ledge jump in your scenario?

Edit: this only applies to you staying on the ledge, not any ledge actions *whoops*.
Still of note in perhaps using invincibility and ledge drop actions to edge guard more efficiently.

But overall this underlines how safe the ledge can actually be in this game.

 

[icraq]

And ledge actions stack/overlap with it?
IIRC a ledge jump's invincibility runs out the moment you can act, so I'm guessing I wouldn't be getting 2 seconds of invincibility from a buffered ledge jump in your scenario?

Edit: this only applies to you staying on the ledge, not any ledge actions *whoops*.
Still of note in perhaps using invincibility and ledge drop actions to edge guard more efficiently.

But overall this underlines how safe the ledge can actually be in this game.

also something to consider is ledge slipping/dropping's invincibility..
the parameters file shows it as invincible frames 1-5.

i don't know if this is still a thing but there was a tech that was never solved last i checked, where one could immediately run on to stage from a ledge drop -> second jump forward. was that patched out or ever fine tuned? was it a 3ds only thing? i was able to do it myself on arena ferox at least a couple times with marth.

 

[A_Kae]

also something to consider is ledge slipping/dropping's invincibility..
the parameters file shows it as invincible frames 1-5.

i don't know if this is still a thing but there was a tech that was never solved last i checked, where one could immediately run on to stage from a ledge drop -> second jump forward. was that patched out or ever fine tuned? was it a 3ds only thing? i was able to do it myself on arena ferox at least a couple times with marth.

Is this (http://smashboards.com/threads/possible-marth-tech-found-video-inside.403895/) what you're talking about?

I think it's still in but I haven't checked.

 

[icraq]

Is this (http://smashboards.com/threads/possible-marth-tech-found-video-inside.403895/) what you're talking about?

I think it's still in but I haven't checked.

Yup.
It's an old tech, older than that post, I wasn't aware it was on the wii u.
Iirc it's not specific to Marth but it is easiest with him, I did it once with Rosa.
Haven't tried it in a while. Would've been back in the 3ds days.
There's also that weird glitch ninjalink found where Rosa did an instant stand up into ftilt.

I suppose if someone mastered it coulsnt they ledge drop to instant shield before the I frames ended? Just a thought.