Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[san.]

Can you jump out of an extended dash dance?

Yes, since you're just dashing.

 

[Teshie U]

Why/how is it people can attack out of a ground bounce when spiked?

What controls it and how can I avoid this happening when I spike someone?

Is there any hope of this being fixed? It seems like it would be kind of dumb to have spikes have 0 hitstun when used on stage (without even teching).

 

[Pazx]

@ Teshie U this was on the previous page:

I'm not entirely sure what the calculations are or why the game does this, but I can tell you that it has nothing to do with a window in which you do the input.
The opponent goes through the same (or very similar) amount of hitstun if they are spiked in the air and act (e.g. use an aerial) in the air before touching the ground, compared to when they are spiked from the ground and then act in the air after that immediate ground bounce. The special one is when they are spiked from the air then bounce off the ground. When the opponent bounces off the ground from the air, their required hitstun is re-calculated; again I'm not sure what goes into this. It seems to depend on their percent, but at lower percents you could be looking at something like a third of the original hitstun, quite possibly less, and then at least part of this hitstun must be counted from the moment they were originally hit, because often you'll find that the opponent is able to act immediately upon hitting the ground, presumably because they've already gone through the required amount of hitstun while getting sent towards the ground. It's certainly not always the case that they'll be able to act immediately though, and this will depend upon what percent they were on and how high up they were hit from. The higher their percent, the more it seems to be the case that time spent in the air before hitting the ground doesn't help as much as time spent in the air upon leaving the ground. So it's not a matter of there being a specific window in which you have to input it. In fact under the right circumstances the action (e.g. an aerial) can be buffered before you even touch the ground. The up-shot is that when getting spiked to the ground from the air, if you're on low percents, your best option will often not be teching it.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Does anybody know the frame data for tripping? Containing the invincibility and vulnerability frames? Also, I assume that the get-up frame data is the same for a missed tech.

 

[jmjb]

what the heck.. running fsmash is a thing?? like.. i dont even know what my question is.. just what?? i thought pivoting could only be used to attack behind you.. not full speed run, then fsmash/ftilt.. wtf

 

[busken]

what the heck.. running fsmash is a thing?? like.. i dont even know what my question is.. just what?? i thought pivoting could only be used to attack behind you.. not full speed run, then fsmash/ftilt.. wtf

Little's mac foxtrot is faster then his running animation. Also, you can't run and f-smash you can only dash and cancel it into a forward smash, or dash then turnaround f-smash. What is being shown here is perfect pivot f-smash from foxtrot. Since Mac's foxtrot can be interrupted very early and you can perfect pivot into f-smash it seems very quick. This is not effective with most of the cast as they're foxtrot to perfect pivot is simply to slow.

 

[Shaya]

You're over thinking it busken, he's only double fox trotting and doing a stutter step fsmash out of the second one.

 

[jmjb]

ah so basically, this is only a thing with little mac because of his uber reaction time, and not for example, villager? do i understand that correctly?

 

[Shaya]

err... not reaction time... more like just dash speed.

Marth does this frequently too.
IT is kinda relegated to characters with "good" forward smashes with good dash specs, which is somewhat a rarity.

 

[Kaladin]

Hey all. The run cancel with shielding is a fundamental part of decent level play... That confuses me immensely. I can do it, but inconsistently. Could someone walk me through how and why it works? Thanks!

 

[Shaya]

You mean cancelling your run by shielding?
It's simply.. pressing shielding while you're in run.

There's like 3 states:
Initial Dash > Dash / "Fox Trot" motion > Run ; which you transition through.

If I'm interpreting you right, the two issues you may be having are related to the control stick
if you're holding forward and press shield before your run you will forward roll
if you're holding back (without causing skid) and press shield you'll back roll.

So in the first case, it's just a matter of pressing shield a little later, holding forward shouldn't matter.
In the latter case, you're a professional at overthinking inputs (like some of us :3).

 

[Pazx]

You actually have to be holding forward AFAIK, if you let go of the control stick you'll be stuck in skid, which might be your problem.

 

[jmjb]

also, dont just tap shield, keep holding it down.

 

[David Viran]

I've never heard this talked about. Now that shields don't slide off ledges when hit there are certain moves that have enough shield push back to screw with people's oos options when shielding too close to the ledge. I tested with zss's Bair and found that any move that would keep a slide if you try to use it oos will cause you to slide off the ledge and cancel the move. Most grabs in this game will keep a slide. Jump will also cancel the the jump squat frames and just slide off.

 

[DanGR]

The hitlag values listed here in Thinkaman's data dump for patch 1.0.4.

For all the attacks without values listed, is the hitlag modifier default 1.0?

 

[icraq]

The hitlag values listed here in Thinkaman's data dump for patch 1.0.4.

For all the attacks without values listed, is the hitlag modifier default 1.0?

Yup.
Feel bad for making a single word post, though.
Uhh..
Oh, yeah, I said ledge drops had invincibility frames a while back in this thread. I was wrong. So uh, oops.

I guess I could still be right accidentally, but the information I was basing that on was mistaken by me.

 

[YoshiYoshi]

I have a very basic question I've been having trouble finding answers to....

Is power-shielding the same as in previous games? According to literature on the topic, the power-shield radius is less than that of the full shield, but in this game I notice countless power-shields that just barely graze the edge of the shield.

Is that any different from in previous games, or am I seeing things?

 

[M15t3R E]

I have a very basic question I've been having trouble finding answers to....

Is power-shielding the same as in previous games? According to literature on the topic, the power-shield radius is less than that of the full shield, but in this game I notice countless power-shields that just barely graze the edge of the shield.

Is that any different from in previous games, or am I seeing things?

How to power shield has not changed. There is no such thing as a "power shield radius". It is still performed by shielding an attack during the first few frames of shield with any part of the shield.

 

[DanGR]

Can I get a confirmation on the order in which you can act in the air following hitstun? (airdodge, attack, specials, and jump) I was told it was attack>airdodge>jump/specials, but I'm skeptical.

Also, what are the general rules on when you can buffer inputs? (I understand what buffering is, just unsure if you can do it in any situation.)

 

[M15t3R E]

Can I get a confirmation on the order in which you can act in the air following hitstun? (airdodge, attack, specials, and jump) I was told it was attack>airdodge>jump/specials, but I'm skeptical.

Also, what are the general rules on when you can buffer inputs? (I understand what buffering is, just unsure if you can do it in any situation.)

That seems right. I have personally tested the options out of hitstun and discovered in both Brawl and Smash 4 that you can use a quick aerial before you can do anything else. However, if your character has no fast aerial this may or may not hold true.
Not exactly sure precisely when you can buffer. You mean out of hitstun?

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Can I get a confirmation on the order in which you can act in the air following hitstun? (airdodge, attack, specials, and jump) I was told it was attack>airdodge>jump/specials, but I'm skeptical.

Also, what are the general rules on when you can buffer inputs? (I understand what buffering is, just unsure if you can do it in any situation.)

I've tested and confirmed everything in the above video, it is all correct. You can buffer in any situation where allowable conditions exist.

 

[busken]

Does anybody have the hitbox visual for every character's dash attack and dash grab? Also, the grab range for running grab and dash grab is the same right, they seem different to me idk. Also does anybody know character's who's dash attack has more range then their dash grab and vice versa? Of the top of my head Shulk, Ike, and Little Mac come to mind.

 

[M15t3R E]

Disregard this.

 

[DanGR]

@ M15t3R E I meant in any situation- not just out of hitstun. @ I I speak Spanish too covered it.

But! This leads to my next question, which I was alluding to. Luma seems to be able to attack out of Rosalina's hitstun a little bit before Rosalina can attack. Luma can attack without Rosalina attacking, which is weird.

What would make sense of my anecdotes is being able to buffer Luma's attacks but not Rosalina's during hitstun. This isn't the case though. Maybe the buffer window for luma is increased during Rosalina's hitstun?

For Rosalina, it seems the order for acting out of hitstun is the following:
Luma attack>Rosalina attack>air dodge>jump/specials

 

[M15t3R E]

I've tested and confirmed everything in the above video, it is all correct. You can buffer in any situation where allowable conditions exist.

Thank you for this informative video!
An addendum to my last comment: in Smash 4 you cannot act out of hitstun like you can in Brawl, so my comparison was a bit misleading. You can airdodge the moment hitstun ends while still flying off from the knockback or use a quick aerial (better option) because it will also reduce momentum.
Edit: Luma can act as a bodyguard independent of Rosalina's state. I've watched a Rosalina's shield be broken and the opponent walked up to her, charged his f-smash, only to be swatted away by Luma.

 

[DanGR]

Edit: Luma can act as a bodyguard independent of Rosalina's state. I've watched a Rosalina's shield be broken and the opponent walked up to her, charged his f-smash, only to be swatted away by Luma.

Not exactly. It's most certainly dependent on if the input happened when Rosalina is in a state she can act in, excluding while grabbed (command grabs are different in this case), shield-broken, frozen, etc.

 

[icraq]

But! This leads to my next question, which I was alluding to. Luma seems to be able to attack out of Rosalina's hitstun a little bit before Rosalina can attack. Luma can attack without Rosalina attacking, which is weird.

What would make sense of my anecdotes is being able to buffer Luma's attacks but not Rosalina's during hitstun. This isn't the case though. Maybe the buffer window for luma is increased during Rosalina's hitstun?

Yeah but if you spam grab out of hitstun, Rosa air dodges and Luma attacks. Wouldn't that mean air dodge has priority? I know that later in a tumble state using grab causes an aerial.

Luma attacking before Rosa is likely due to how the game worked when launched. Luma could attack out of hit stun at any time. Whatever the patch did seemed to not be perfect, possibly it was a balance decision to allow early attacks from Luma.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Can I get a confirmation on the order in which you can act in the air following hitstun? (airdodge, attack, specials, and jump) I was told it was attack>airdodge>jump/specials, but I'm skeptical.

If you receive low knockback from a move, all options are capable of coming out on the exact same frame (though there are a few random outliers such as Zair and Z-drop due to buffering issues, but the rule remains constant). As soon as you start increasing the knockback however, things change. Airdodge begins to come out ever so slightly earlier than every other option, while all other options continue to always come out on the exact same frame. The more knockback you receive, the more noticeable it gets.

This can actually be used to make other options come out earlier than normal too. For example you can cancel the initial frames of an airdodge with a z-drop or item throw, and airdodge can of course also be cancelled by Zair. In medium to high knockback, these options can come out noticeably sooner than what is normally possible so long as you airdodge first then immediately cancel that airdodge. By cancelling the airdodge with any of these options you can also regain control of your character's mobility sooner, allowing you to drift left or right noticeably sooner than usual when hit generally upwards. Combine this with the fact that Z-dropping items creates a hitbox immediately and the fact that airdodges only gain invulnerability in frame 3 anyway, and you have a combo breaking option.

http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-33#post-20022628

 

[DanGR]

Luma attacking before Rosa is likely due to how the game worked when launched. Luma could attack out of hit stun at any time. Whatever the patch did seemed to not be perfect, possibly it was a balance decision to allow early attacks from Luma.

Yes this seems to be the case, and intentional at that. You'd think it'd be relatively easy to program Luma to attack at the same time as Rosalina. @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive cleared up the rest of my questions. You were right that airdodge comes out first.

If you receive low knockback from a move, all options are capable of coming out on the exact same frame (though there are a few random outliers such as Zair and Z-drop due to buffering issues, but the rule remains constant). As soon as you start increasing the knockback however, things change. Airdodge begins to come out ever so slightly earlier than every other option, while all other options continue to always come out on the exact same frame. The more knockback you receive, the more noticeable it gets.

This can actually be used to make other options come out earlier than normal too. For example you can cancel the initial frames of an airdodge with a z-drop or item throw, and airdodge can of course also be cancelled by Zair. In medium to high knockback, these options can come out noticeably sooner than what is normally possible so long as you airdodge first then immediately cancel that airdodge. By cancelling the airdodge with any of these options you can also regain control of your character's mobility sooner, allowing you to drift left or right noticeably sooner than usual when hit generally upwards. Combine this with the fact that Z-dropping items creates a hitbox immediately and the fact that airdodges only gain invulnerability in frame 3 anyway, and you have a combo breaking option.

http://smashboards.com/threads/link...-techniques-here.379659/page-33#post-20022628

Thanks for the detailed response! I don't have much to add beyond a thank you.

 

[Jabzilla]

Hey guys, I don't know if this has been discovered yet or if it is exclusive to Roy but I was playing against the CPU for fun when this really long roll happened. No customs were on, it was 3 stocks and I was using a GC controller. It happens at around the 2:50 mark. It could be due to Charizard though with his recent changes or down to Roy. I am wondering if anyone else has encounted this.

https://youtu.be/22O5PZW7Xbc?t=2m49s

Thanks for reading!

 

[icraq]

Hey guys, I don't know if this has been discovered yet or if it is exclusive to Roy but I was playing against the CPU for fun when this really long roll happened. No customs were on, it was 3 stocks and I was using a GC controller. It happens at around the 2:50 mark. It could be due to Charizard though with his recent changes or down to Roy. I am wondering if anyone else has encounted this.

https://youtu.be/22O5PZW7Xbc?t=2m49s

Thanks for reading!

Weird!
I'd be curious if anyone can replicate it, if I had to guess, Charizard's fsmash is displacing Roy forward (since it pushes zard forward) while Roy is intangible in his roll. It looks like Charizard is moving faster forward with his Fsmash than Roy is in his roll, and it's forcing Roy to speed up.
Neat find, thanks for uploading.

 

[HoSmash4]

Is it possible to do perfect pivot tilts without a c-stick?

 

[M15t3R E]

Yes this seems to be the case, and intentional at that. You'd think it'd be relatively easy to program Luma to attack at the same time as Rosalina. @ Fox Is Openly Deceptive cleared up the rest of my questions. You were right that airdodge comes out first.


Thanks for the detailed response! I don't have much to add beyond a thank you.

To be fair, I said the same thing about acting after hitstun. He was a tad more detailed though in discussing your options.

To be fair, I said the same thing about acting after hitstun. He was a tad more detailed though in discussing your options.

Yes. Heck, I was doing them all the time on my 3DS before the wii u version came out accidentally while trying to do pivot grabs.

 

[teluoborg]

Hey guys, I don't know if this has been discovered yet or if it is exclusive to Roy but I was playing against the CPU for fun when this really long roll happened. No customs were on, it was 3 stocks and I was using a GC controller. It happens at around the 2:50 mark. It could be due to Charizard though with his recent changes or down to Roy. I am wondering if anyone else has encounted this.

https://youtu.be/22O5PZW7Xbc?t=2m49s

Thanks for reading!

Charizard's Dtilt has a windbox. It pushed you during your roll, that's it.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

To be fair, I said the same thing about acting after hitstun. He was a tad more detailed though in discussing your options.

To be fair, you didn't say the same thing. Here's what you said:

I have personally tested the options out of hitstun and discovered in both Brawl and Smash 4 that you can use a quick aerial before you can do anything else. However, if your character has no fast aerial this may or may not hold true.

which was followed by

An addendum to my last comment: in Smash 4 you cannot act out of hitstun like you can in Brawl, so my comparison was a bit misleading. You can airdodge the moment hitstun ends while still flying off from the knockback or use a quick aerial (better option) because it will also reduce momentum.

There's an issue here. None of the above says that all options come out on the same frame in low knockback and that as knockback increases airdodge comes out slightly sooner. What you said was different, and it wasn't the kind of difference that doesn't matter. I don't presume to speak for anyone else, but I personally got the strong impression from your posts that a 'quick aerial' would in the very least come out at the same time as airdodge. Considering that the original question concerned "the order in which you can act in the air following hitstun", what was required was a straight forward answer, i.e. that in medium to high knockback airdodge will come out sooner than everything else while everything else will come out soon after at the same time. But because this wasn't said or made clear enough, I actually felt obliged to make a post to set the record straight.
Let's be honest; the information in the first of the two quotes is simply wrong. So for starters, the second post should have come right out and explicitly said so. Far from renouncing it however, the second post appears to be 'adding' to the first post. The phrase 'a bit misleading' in the second post is in and of itself a bit misleading, because it is there in place of the word 'incorrect'.
Assuming, with due credit, that you knew that airdodge did in fact come out sooner than aerials (in medium to high knockback) this should have been explicitly said. Unfortunately this message was lost by continuing to include the 'quick aerial' idea from the first post. The way it is included gives me the impression that the second post is saying that quick aerials are on the same or a 'better' level than airdodging. In the context of answering the original question which wanted to know what options come out first, you can see how this might cause problems to call aerials the 'better option' immediately following a post that claims that they come out first. As I said, it gave me the impression that aerials must at least come out at the same time as airdodging, otherwise it would be difficult to see how they are flat-out a better option.

 

[M15t3R E]

To be fair, you didn't say the same thing. Here's what you said:

which was followed by

There's an issue here. None of the above says that all options come out on the same frame in low knockback and that as knockback increases airdodge comes out slightly sooner. What you said was different, and it wasn't the kind of difference that doesn't matter. I don't presume to speak for anyone else, but I personally got the strong impression from your posts that a 'quick aerial' would in the very least come out at the same time as airdodge. Considering that the original question concerned "the order in which you can act in the air following hitstun", what was required was a straight forward answer, i.e. that in medium to high knockback airdodge will come out sooner than everything else while everything else will come out soon after at the same time. But because this wasn't said or made clear enough, I actually felt obliged to make a post to set the record straight.
Let's be honest; the information in the first of the two quotes is simply wrong. So for starters, the second post should have come right out and explicitly said so. Far from renouncing it however, the second post appears to be 'adding' to the first post. The phrase 'a bit misleading' in the second post is in and of itself a bit misleading, because it is there in place of the word 'incorrect'.
Assuming, with due credit, that you knew that airdodge did in fact come out sooner than aerials (in medium to high knockback) this should have been explicitly said. Unfortunately this message was lost by continuing to include the 'quick aerial' idea from the first post. The way it is included gives me the impression that the second post is saying that quick aerials are on the same or a 'better' level than airdodging. In the context of answering the original question which wanted to know what options come out first, you can see how this might cause problems to call aerials the 'better option' immediately following a post that claims that they come out first. As I said, it gave me the impression that aerials must at least come out at the same time as airdodging, otherwise it would be difficult to see how they are flat-out a better option.

We are discussing the nitty gritty of the game- the forces at play that define the game but aren't readily apparent. I assume you have had more time to playtest these mechanics than I have. In truth, I concur that one would do better to disregard my entire input on this subject today and just read your comments about it. I thank you for helping me to understand the dynamic of hitstun options; specifically how higher knockback and hitstun changes one's options and exactly what you can do in those situations. Tell me something: after incurring high knockback would you recommend using an airdodge prior to an aerial which starts and finishes in less than half the time their airdodge does? This is quite important to know.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It just depends on the situation and what you're trying to achieve. If you're trying to avoid a string of attacks then it's important to know that airdodge comes out first (otherwise there's airdodge cancelled Z-drop). If you're trying to regain control of your character's movement e.g. in order to drift back towards stage, then you'll want to use an aerial (or cancel the airdodge), though in terms of regaining control of your drifting I don't believe it matters how quick the aerial is.

 

[Ffamran]

Charizard's Dtilt has a windbox. It pushed you during your roll, that's it.

The only issue is this:

Character | Last (PST) | Changes | Dant
Charizard | F 23:30 |

• Forward Tilt
  • Sweetspot damage increased 10% → 11%
  • One of three sourspot hitboxes are now a 'sweetspot'
• Down Tilt windbox added that pushes opponents inwards (pre-animation modifier frames 6-9)
• Back Air landing lag reduced 36 → 33 frames
• Down Throw end frame reduced 73 → 70

| ★[/LIST][/LIST] | ★

[U]Blah[/U] | - | [LIST][*][B]Magic[/B] -[/LIST]

Keyword: inwards. Then again, I don't even know what Little Mac's windbox on KO Punch and his dash attack are for - it lead to footage of a Jigglypuff being pushed out and under the stage's lip - and for all we know, stupid shenanigans can cause a suctioning windbox to push you away instead... Isn't that kind of what happens with Kong Cyclone? It's supposed to suck you in, but sometimes it can blow you away like when you air dodge or something.

 

[Lavani]

MasterCore has the dtilt windbox listed as the same angle as the hit itself

It's just the windbox shoving Roy during the roll startup.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Does somebody know that the options you can do directly out of a dash and run?I'm trying to make a flowchart on mobility so ur help would be apreciated. A while back VaBengal made a list but I just wanted to confirm.
Here is what he claimed:

Options out of a Dash:

• Jump
• Dash Attack
• Dash Grab
• Side Special
• Fox Trot- aka Another dash in the same direction as the first (during the ending frames of the initial dash)
• Dash Dance- aka Another dash in the opposite direction of the first (during the beginning frames of the initial dash)
• Pivot - aka Returning your character to a standing position in the opposite direction of the initial dash (during the beginning frames of the dash)

Options out of a Run:

• Jump
• Dash Attack
• Dash Grab
• Any Special
• Shield
• Turn
• Pivot Grab
• Skid