Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[DanGR]

You can add forward smash to the list of [immediate] options out of a dash.

 

[inconspikuous]

And you can add up smash to the list of options out of a dash or run. (Jump canceled up-smash is also available, but I assume that's covered by 'jump')

 

[teluoborg]

@ I I speak Spanish too
I think it's better to differentiate dash and initial dash. During initial dash you can dash dance, pivot and Fsmash on top of everything you can do during a dash (side B, jump, dash attack and dash grab). If you want to dash attack during inital dash you need to use Cstick down instead of A.
It's also worth noting that being able to jump allows you to jump cancel Usmash and up B.

And you can use Usmash during a run too.

@ Ffamran what @ Lavani said. What happened there was the same thing that happens with DK's custom up B : you get hit by a windbox that is supposed to displace you into a hitbox but by rolling or airdodging you avoid said hitbox, so you keep the momentum of the windbox and get sent flying. In this case the distance of the windbox was amplified by the distance of the roll.

In this regard smash 4 works very similarly to brawl, where everything is calculated with vectors.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

When I say Dash I mean foxtrotting, which is just repeatedly doing the intial dash. It's the same thing.

 

[teluoborg]

No, the initial dash is the very beginning of the dash when if you turn your stick the other way you'll dash dance. It lasts 2-4 frames at best. It's completely different from the dash that you use to foxtrot.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

On smashwiki it says that foxtrotting is doing the intial dash over and over again idk.

 

[Pazx]

On smashwiki it says that foxtrotting is doing the intial dash over and over again idk.

What Teluoborg is saying is that there's a difference between a dash and a run but there are some options that are only available to you at the very start of your dash.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

Do we have hitstun multipliers and/or properties values (electric, etc) for special moves? They're not present in sixriver's list and I can't seem to find it anywhere else.

 

[A_Kae]

Do we have hitstun multipliers and/or properties values (electric, etc) for special moves? They're not present in sixriver's list and I can't seem to find it anywhere else.

Mastercore would be your best option for up to date information.

 

[Ffamran]

Does anyone have a guess as to why some rapid jabs can cancel or slip off the ledge? I know Falco and Little Mac can, sometimes the Pits, and apparently, so can Kirby.

Falco's sort of makes sense since he steps forward for all parts of his jab, but if that happens, then Little Mac should slip off the ledge too except he doesn't unless he's facing away from the ledge.

 

[Pikabunz]

I've collected some data on using actions during hitstun. I tested this by using Pikachu's straight ftilt on another Pikachu at various percents. The number is the first frame you can use that action during knockback.

| 50% | 60% | 70% | 80% | 90% | 100% | 110% | 120% | 130% | 140% | 150%
Jump + Specials | 34 | 37 | 41 | 44 | 48 | 51 | 55 | 58 | 62 | 65 | 68
Aerials | 34 | 37 | 41 | 44 | 46 | 46 | 46 | 48 | 53 | 58 | 63
Air Dodge | 34 | 37 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 44 | 49 | 54

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I've collected some data on using actions during hitstun. I tested this by using Pikachu's straight ftilt on another Pikachu at various percents. The number is the first frame you can use that action during knockback.

| 50% | 60% | 70% | 80% | 90% | 100% | 110% | 120% | 130% | 140% | 150%
Jump + Specials | 34 | 37 | 41 | 44 | 48 | 51 | 55 | 58 | 62 | 65 | 68
Aerials | 34 | 37 | 41 | 44 | 46 | 46 | 46 | 48 | 53 | 58 | 63
Air Dodge | 34 | 37 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 44 | 49 | 54

Huh. Might this mean that characters with tether recoveries (which can interrupt air dodges) have an advantage when recovering? I may test survival percents with ZSS and get back to everyone here with results on that.

 

[LancerStaff]

I've collected some data on using actions during hitstun. I tested this by using Pikachu's straight ftilt on another Pikachu at various percents. The number is the first frame you can use that action during knockback.

| 50% | 60% | 70% | 80% | 90% | 100% | 110% | 120% | 130% | 140% | 150%
Jump + Specials | 34 | 37 | 41 | 44 | 48 | 51 | 55 | 58 | 62 | 65 | 68
Aerials | 34 | 37 | 41 | 44 | 46 | 46 | 46 | 48 | 53 | 58 | 63
Air Dodge | 34 | 37 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 41 | 44 | 49 | 54

Does this directly effect how far you are launched or do you go the same distance no matter what action?

 

[san.]

I guess looking at this, combo throws will have little variance in the frame difference between these options. The higher the launch, the more you need to take air dodging into account.

 

[M15t3R E]

Yes, according to ssbwiki, the further you are launched, the sooner before hitstun ends that you can airdodge out of it. However, it's only going to be a few frames sooner, whereas in Brawl you could airdodge shortly after hitstun began.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

I tested the viability of recovering via air dodge to zair using Ness' back throw on ZSS. She dies at 86 with toward-stage DI on omega battlefield. It seems no amount of air dodge to zair action could increase the survival percent one bit. Tentatively speaking, I'd say that trying to abuse the earlier air dodge frames with moves that cancel said air dodge is a bust.

Also, when performing a jump canceled out of shield option, do your jumpsquat frames need to finish before the move starts?

 

[Lavani]

Also, when performing a jump canceled out of shield option, do your jumpsquat frames need to finish before the move starts?

If it's an aerial, yes. If it's something you can do on the ground out of jump cancel such as upB or usmash, those actions will interrupt the jumpsquat frames.

 

[moofpi]

I have been wondering about certain up B moves that clip through stage lips such as Ryu's, MK's, Shulk's, Mario's sometimes, and more. If I'm playing as Mario and I would be hit by the hit boxes of these recoveries while on stage and before they reach the ledge, would it be possible to be standing back and just cape to gimp them through the stage since they wouldn't have reached the ledge yet?

 

[M15t3R E]

I have been wondering about certain up B moves that clip through stage lips such as Ryu's, MK's, Shulk's, Mario's sometimes, and more. If I'm playing as Mario and I would be hit by the hit boxes of these recoveries while on stage and before they reach the ledge, would it be possible to be standing back and just cape to gimp them through the stage since they wouldn't have reached the ledge yet?

It would require great timing but yes, Mario's cape and FLUDD can push opponents away from the edge gimping them in this situation.

 

[moofpi]

Excellent, thank you

 

[DanGR]

What are best free programs to use for testing frame data? There's so much I want to look at.

 

[BottlesChan]

There seems to be a lot of information in to sift through in here. Does there happen to be a compilation of all these mechanics and techniques anywhere?

 

[Horseketchup]

Many, many months ago when ledge snap vulnerability was first being looked into, I remember someone (Reflex maybe?) saying that it actually might not be a consistent 1 frame, and that depending on character and/or positioning it might be like a frame more or maybe even no vulnerability at all (forget exactly what it was).

So has this mechanic been broken down more extensively since it was discovered? I just almost never hear anything about it anymore, am curious about the exact details of how it works.

First off, how many total frames is a ledge snap and does your positioning or speed effect the total frames? Is the vulnerability at the beginning or end of the snap? Also will the vulnerability be effected by using different moves into it, or different speeds/positionings?

Thanks in advance for anyone who helps me out with this! It's always assumed to be just be 1 frame, but I feel like there's more to it than that. I know at least that the hurtbox for the vulnerability changes position depending on which recovery move you use to snap (Sheik's vanish seems to usually put her vulnerability hurtbox below the ledge).

 

[Lavani]

What I got from the time I spent looking into ledgesnaps:

- Ledge grab is on frame 3 of the snap, with frame 1 of the snap being vulnerable.
- If snapping to the ledge from above, the ledgesnap is instead 2 frames with no vulnerability.
- The snap's beginning (i.e. vulnerable frame) is based on where you're reaching for the ledge from.

 

[teluoborg]

And does someone know for how many frames you can't ledgegrab after getting hit ?

 

[Horseketchup]

What I got from the time I spent looking into ledgesnaps:

- Ledge grab is on frame 3 of the snap, with frame 1 of the snap being vulnerable.
- If snapping to the ledge from above, the ledgesnap is instead 2 frames with no vulnerability.
- The snap's beginning (i.e. vulnerable frame) is based on where you're reaching for the ledge from.

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for!

Do you know if snapping to the ledge has the same effect for teleporting moves? Like if you Vanish onto the ledge from above, will you still not get any vulnerability?

 

[Lavani]

Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for!

Do you know if snapping to the ledge has the same effect for teleporting moves? Like if you Vanish onto the ledge from above, will you still not get any vulnerability?

Correct.

 

[I speak Spanish too]

Ok, but why is this ledge snap stuff important?

 

[Horseketchup]

Why wouldn't it be important? If someone doesn't know that snapping from above eliminates vulnerability, the opponent could exploit that and spike them out of their recovery.

This is a mechnanics and techniques thread, each little piece of knowledge is valuable.

 

[san.]

Just to make sure, but does the training mode combo counter guarantee that the opponent cannot jump out, or is it still off by a few frames for that?

 

[A_Kae]

Just to make sure, but does the training mode combo counter guarantee that the opponent cannot jump out, or is it still off by a few frames for that?

Training mode counter is accurate for jumps, yes.

 

[Vipermoon]

This a good time as any. I know you can air dodge out of hitstun and training mode's combo counter isn't accurate for that but how does that work? Why can you air dodge out of hitstun (why is it even called hitstun if you can air dodge out of it?) and what else can you do out of hitstun?

 

[Ghostbone]

This a good time as any. I know you can air dodge out of hitstun and training mode's combo counter isn't accurate for that but how does that work? Why can you air dodge out of hitstun (why is it even called hitstun if you can air dodge out of it?) and what else can you do out of hitstun?

Pikabunz's post covers this.

Why can you air-dodge out? Because that's how it's coded. As the knockback/hitstun duration increases, the difference between being able to jump/special (have to wait for hitstun to end) or air-dodge (can use out of hitstun towards the end) increases, with using an aerial being in the middle of those two options.

 

[Shaya]

Hmm, a small pet project if people wouldn't mind helping.
A compilation of all the "best; most informative" single posts in this thread. It was apart of the original idea that cool discoveries started here and blossomed into a new thread if necessary, it's been probably saner to keep it in one place for all the scientists that visit here () but stuff has likely been buried and we can do a great service to many more if we had them more accessible.

I'm sure quite a few lavani/reflex/pikabunz/etc would be great, but yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa~

 

[Vipermoon]

Pikabunz's post covers this.

Why can you air-dodge out? Because that's how it's coded. As the knockback/hitstun duration increases, the difference between being able to jump/special (have to wait for hitstun to end) or air-dodge (can use out of hitstun towards the end) increases, with using an aerial being in the middle of those two options.

I checked out that post, thank you. I just started following this thread so I was unaware of it.

 

[Horseketchup]

Just saw this on reddit, apparently the ledge snap vulnerability is actually two frames instead of one. Snapping from above still gives you full invulnerability though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0A1qk4Qo6ZU

 

[I speak Spanish too]

lol the destruction

 

[Ghostbone]

Seems like it's probably to do with the distance you're snapping the ledge from, since if you snap from above you have 0 frames of vulnerability.
If I had a capture card I'd investigate this further but :/

 

[Waviz]

I believe you can do any special attack out of a dash, not just side special.

 

[Azazel]

I believe you can do any special attack out of a dash, not just side special.

nope, but for sure when run loop begins. although you can Up-special via Jump cancel up-b since you can jump out of dash