Q&A Mechanics & Techniques Discussion

[infiniteV115]

For both, the way it works is that you receive the landing lag if you land during the animation of the move/airdodge. Full hopping and doing it immediately puts you high enough so that the animation finishes before you've come back to the ground.

I think with airdodges it might be a little different and you might still have the lag even a bit after the airdodge animation is over, but you can just cancel this by landing with something else (like a less laggy aerial or special)

 

[NoviceSmasher]

Nope... If you airdodge on the way up to full jump its has like no landing lag...I can jump immediately and do it. Again and again

 

[Virgman]

Nope... If you airdodge on the way up to full jump its has like no landing lag...I can jump immediately and do it. Again and again

This is correct. When people were saying that AD is no longer lagless, I had to try it out myself, to believe it. The thing is that the statement is true, and it's not. If AD is input IMMEDIATELY after jumping, it's lagless. This is confirmed with both full hop and short hop. But if it's input anytime after that, it has lag, even if the animation is complete. Very odd.

 

[Shaya]

Air dodges have an auto cancel frame after the animation for the move ends.

This occurred on a few small instances in Brawl. Donkey Kong's back air and Meta Knight's up air are the two examples I recall. Meta Knight's up air ended on frame 13 but auto cancelled on 16, DK's bair is like 38? frames and auto cancels on 42. This wasn't exactly a bad thing, those two characters could "L Cancel" with air dodges as they were another animation that imposed no landing lag.

Most potent on MK being able sh double uair air dodge and cut like 12 frames off of the "sequence", SH FF uair air dodge was also very good. Ultimately, this "L cancel" allowed MK's to buffer inputs more effectively and also made him abnormally safe/low commitment on juggle traps.

This same scenario now no longer exists (in a way which you can throw out invincibility + cancel your landing lag in one amazing swoop), and this effect of 'this aerial isn't meant to be used close to the ground or fast fallen' actually is now a thing. However, assuming Brawl standards, most characters have aerials which will be technically "auto cancelled" if they land before the hitbox of the move comes out. This means air dodge + specific aerials on specific characters will give them air dodges to the ground that won't be "laggy".

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Even so, it sometimes feels like Mario's FAir might have an actual auto-cancel on it after the hitbox ends but before he completes his tumbling endlag animation. Same goes for Link's DAir in that it feels like it might have a very slight amount of auto-cancel, between the hitbox ending and him resetting to a neutral falling animation.

 

[Tristan_win]

Hey can anyone tell me if jump cancel grab is or isn't in the game?

It would greatly help Palutena if it is.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

This is correct. When people were saying that AD is no longer lagless, I had to try it out myself, to believe it. The thing is that the statement is true, and it's not. If AD is input IMMEDIATELY after jumping, it's lagless. This is confirmed with both full hop and short hop. But if it's input anytime after that, it has lag, even if the animation is complete. Very odd.

I actually like this you can do an lagless airdodge.. Making your opponent think you Will have lag....then SURPRISE

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Air dodges have an auto cancel frame after the animation for the move ends.

Are you talking about exactly one frame?

 

[Shaya]

I'm not sure how long it is, I'm going by what people are saying that they're able to air dodge and attack but if they just air dodge and land they go into a much longer lag.

 

[san.]

You can cancel a pivot with a roll with an additional pivot + shield, although it only goes backwards. It's a little quirky, but it adds another element for ground control, especially for those who like to turnaround after running.

 

[dskank]

Hey can anyone tell me if jump cancel grab is or isn't in the game?

It would greatly help Palutena if it is.

idk about jc grab but their is dash attack cancel grab which has many of the same properties.

 

[mimgrim]

idk about jc grab but their is dash attack cancel grab which has many of the same properties.

You mean Boost Grabbing? Nah. That's still a dash grab but with a boost. Just the boost is non-existent on most characters. Doesn't make it into a regular grab. In this game the closest you have is shield-grabbing, especially with how fast shield comes out of a run,but that only works in the running animation and not the dashing animation.

 

[dskank]

You mean Boost Grabbing? Nah. That's still a dash grab but with a boost. Just the boost is non-existent on most characters. Doesn't make it into a regular grab. In this game the closest you have is shield-grabbing, especially with how fast shield comes out of a run,but that only works in the running animation and not the dashing animation.

came back to post that i was wrong about boost grab. mario's standing and dash grab look so similar that i couldn't tell.

 

[infiniteV115]

While messing around I noticed something cool. Since Smash 4's pivot mechanics are a bit different than Brawl's (eg it's really easy to be running and then do a pivot ftilt), it becomes really easy to do a running pivot sideB (ie you don't have to b-reverse it), and you can do a running turnaround neutralB though it's fairly difficult cause you can't use the method that involves flicking back, letting the analog return to neutral, and then pressing B, as this will cause your skid animation to last til its natural end. Instead you have to do it by holding slightly back on the analog.

This means that characters who can't b-reverse their sideB can still do running turnaround sideBs and they're functionally the same. Same for chars who can't b-reverse their nB though this is a fair bit harder. In Brawl, if you couldn't b-reverse your sideB/nB then this option was just flatout unavailable to you.

 

[Captain Norris]

I don't know if this was known yet, but I was actually reading some of the tips the game gives you, and some are pretty neat.
Is it already known that if you slightly move the circle pad during a shield, you will be able to move the shield? I do not remember this being in brawl, and I think this has the potential for some serious survival play and such.
It is pretty hard to do on the 3ds, but I think the wii u version will have some more potential with it.

 

[allshort17]

I don't know if this was known yet, but I was actually reading some of the tips the game gives you, and some are pretty neat.
Is it already known that if you slightly move the circle pad during a shield, you will be able to move the shield? I do not remember this being in brawl, and I think this has the potential for some serious survival play and such.
It is pretty hard to do on the 3ds, but I think the wii u version will have some more potential with it.

It was in brawl, though a bit uncommon. People used it to prevent shield pokes. Watch a good player shield against MK's nado and you'll see it.

 

[Captain Norris]

It was in brawl, though a bit uncommon. People used it to prevent shield pokes. Watch a good player shield against MK's nado and you'll see it.

mm thank you. After pointing it out, I am beginning to notice it. IMO I am thinking this little mechanic will be developed a lot more,

 

[Chiroz]

From how tests and discussion have been going on the Vectoring thread it seems like VI/DI/Vectoring is actually a circle instead of a square. It also seems to be weaker in effect than what DI was able to achieve, meaning you can't get out of combos as easily or survive as long as you could with DI in previous games (unless the move has a diagonal trajectory, in which case you'll probably be able to survive longer or get out of combos easier). What seems to be the reason of the really high % survivals is that crouch cancelling seems to be back in a new way.

For example, VIng horizontally against an F-Smash does not help you survive even remotely close to as long as crouching the F-Smash will. But doing downwards VI on an aerial that kills vertically seems to only allow you to survive slightly longer than doing horizontal VI. Also doing horizontal VI on a vertical kill move does allow you to survive slightly longer than no VI at all.



These weren't tests done by myself so I can't attest to their validity, but there's already like 4-5 different people with the same results so I would keep an eye on all of these conclusions.






Edit: As proved by this video, crouch cancelling is indeed back.

If there is still any doubt if crouch canceling is back or not I found video proof.

It's pretty obvious due to the nature of the video that they were demonstrating crouch canceling.

So, by the latest tests, it seems VI is actually rather weak and doesn't affect combos or survivability as much as DI did in Melee and Brawl. But this new Crouch Cancelling, which is actually based on your current damage and thus gets stronger at higher %s, helps people survive much longer than they would without it (Or get out of combos by not being launched as far. It might also make you more comboable if you do it against certain moves or at wrong times).

 

[Tristan_win]

Here's a fun little video that has a bunch of neat bugs for a wide selection of characters.

I suggest subscribing as he seems to be constantly pumping out new material right now.

 

[Empyrean]

Cancelling the Links' dair lag with a throw seems much more reliable than with side-b. Those are some neat finds.

 

[SixSaw]

I thought I noticed the weird air momentum thing with Wario is some streamed matches, glad I wasn't imagining it lol. Really excited to see what uses that item-throw canceling might have.

 

[Chiroz]

Here's a fun little video that has a bunch of neat bugs for a wide selection of characters.

I suggest subscribing as he seems to be constantly pumping out new material right now.

So many weird bugs. How is that item aerial momentum thing done?

 

[Tristan_win]

So many weird bugs. How is that item aerial momentum thing done?

I'm afraid I have no idea. I found this only because I was looking for Japanese matches for Sheik and Palutena.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Not sure if this has already been known since the early demos but here's a video for DACUS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ismOSX5zTY

I'm personally glad this is back in. I used this technique alot in brawl.

 

[SixSaw]

So is it confirmed that the whole lag-cancel item toss thing is actually exclusive to peach, diddy + the links, or can any character do it if they're holding an item?

 

[Yoki]

Now that tripping no longer is a threat, characters with a good fox trot can use it to perform good to great dashdances. Essentially, the input is →, →←, ←→, →←, ...

Little Mac's is by far the easiest to perform as well as the most powerful, his minimum dash dance length being smaller than a BF platform (you can do it without falling off) despite his insane dash speed. This will definitely be a staple in his competitive moveset. Captain Falcon's is also good and relatively easy to do, but I'm not yet proficient enough with a 3DS to test it with many characters (Pikachu's seems decent, but I can't do it consistently). I don't have a video, but Little Mac's is really easy to try out.

 

[smashingme]

In 'options' there is an option to turn analog stick jumping off. Is this the tournament standard in offline tournaments or do I have to leave it on?

 

[Yoki]

After more testing, it turns that dashdancing gives you zero initial momentum, therefore it is possible to perform dashdances of *any* length by adjusting how long you hold the stick after a change of direction.

Edit: with some more testing, it seems that you can perform something similar to a "wavebounced" Ftilt, as well as a dash-canceled forward FTilt out of a fox trot. Video posted in the little mac board: http://smashboards.com/threads/fox-trot-based-ats.371108/

 

[Shaya]

That's cool Yoki, have you seen the thread by Bengalz in this forum? Is this different to what he's shown/discovered do you think?
Your videos + input instructions seem very nice/easy to understand.

In 'options' there is an option to turn analog stick jumping off. Is this the tournament standard in offline tournaments or do I have to leave it on?

Custom control schemes are free for all tournament players to alter. "Tap Jump off" is a pretty common thing for players to change.

 

[Yoki]

This is completely different, and since I figured out how that last example actually works and it potentially has applications for every character, I made a general thread here: http://smashboards.com/threads/perfect-pivot-foxtrotting-dashdancing.371139/

 

[RockerJay]

How do you set the rules to both stocks and time limit? It only lets me choose one.

 

[mimgrim]

You have unlock additional rules. Not sure what the requirement is though. Haven't gotten yet. I've heard that it's 200 KOs total, so I'm gonna try that since I'm at 158 currently.

 

[RATED]

They look so dumb, they look like ending lag is reaaaally low

 

[Pluid]

As far as Glide Tossing goes, I know that JC Tossing is back, but I found with Meta Knight he can do a Brawl-esqe Glide Toss. Can anyone confirm if any other character can do this?
Source:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCWy4LeVXOY

Also, is this thread worthy?

 

[Reidlos Toof]

Just got a loading screen tip explaining exactly what people have been calling "Vectoring" is. The tip read "If you hold a direction while taking damage you will move slightly in that direction". The tip title was Hitstun Shuffling. At first I just thought it was Nintendo giving an official name to DI, but then I remembered all the people talking about some new technique called "Vectoring".

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I think that's actually referring to Smash DI. I've read the tip too but I'm pretty sure it was actually titled "Hitstun Shuffling".

 

[Reidlos Toof]

I think that's actually referring to Smash DI. I've read the tip too but I'm pretty sure it was actually titled "Hitstun Shuffling".

You're right, that is the title. Just changed it. And considering that you have to use Hitstun Shuffling to even be able to do what people are calling Vectoring, they are effectively the same thing.

 

[LinkNIvy]

You're right, that is the title. Just changed it. And considering that you have to use Hitstun Shuffling to even be able to do what people are calling Vectoring, they are effectively the same thing.

They ARE the same thing.

/naming debate

 

[Indigo Jeans]

But... they're not the same thing. Smash DI has no effect on the amount of knockback a move applies. If you get hit vertically with 60 units of KB and SDI upwards, you're altering the distance, but you'll still be receiving 60 units of KB since the shuffling does not affect your launch velocity. Vectors in Smash 4 are at the moment understood to only be composed of velocity (KB) values, so if you get hit vertically with 60 units of KB and vector upwards with 30 units of KB, you'll ultimately be subjected to 90 units. They are far from the same thing, otherwise "vectoring" would have been a big deal since the 64 days.

Not to mention that you basically lied about what the game calls it make a better case for your argument and so you could tie it into knockback.

 

[Time/SpaceMage]

I don't know if this was known yet, but I was actually reading some of the tips the game gives you, and some are pretty neat.
Is it already known that if you slightly move the circle pad during a shield, you will be able to move the shield? I do not remember this being in brawl, and I think this has the potential for some serious survival play and such.
It is pretty hard to do on the 3ds, but I think the wii u version will have some more potential with it.

That was in Melee as well, btw. You could use it to throw off an opponent's l-cancel timing.

Speaking of shields, you can still shield platform-drop by slightly tapping Down.