Mechanics of recovery moves changed? (Requesting E for All test!)

[Ryudragon29]

I'd say you're analyzing too much.

 

[Tingle_Stole_My_Pants]

Hey Wyvern dude! You were asking for someone to mention something about Samus that you may have missed, and it looks like you overlooked this message from the first page. That would solve your problem nicely, ne?

To me, it seems as simple as allowing characters with non-attacking Up+B moves to be able to fight back. Since Sonic's Up+B isn't really an attack, he could be allowed to fight back.

As for the video with Samus, the only thing I'm seeing that's out of the norm is that at some point, it looks as if Samus does 2 Up+B's in a row, gaining a lot more height than normal. It happens after she strikes Ike with the Screw attack. It looks as if she performs the Up+B, then just as it's starting to slow down, she suddenly accelerates and goes even higher in to the air.

It may be an illusion though due to the camera shifting at that point, and it looks like Samus may have fastfalled back towards the ground.

As far as Diddy goes, I think the person playing him may have had slow fingers. You know when you tap the control stick up in melee, but you pushed B too late and you end up using the up-b in midair about an inch off the ground? Yeah... I haven't watched the movie yet. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

 

[Brasil]

If ALL the jumps looked non-blinking, then I'd have believed that it was a non-direct recording problem right away. But why would it just so happen to only happen to two of them, when the camera never moves? It's really bizarre. But whatever it is, it probably isn't gameplay related, since SiD's video is pretty definitive.

But you really don't see any color differences? Not even in the screenshots I've been posting? It doesn't really seem possible that my monitor would display more colors than someone else's looking at the exact same saved MS Paint image...but I really don't know much about computer hardware.

See, the problem is, screenshots often don't do this much justice, because in order to get an accurate screenie comparison, you'd need identical video from the very beginning, and get the same exact frame for both shots. Which is pretty much impossible unless the developers were to specifically *outright* program two videos for that purpose.

What I think you're seeing in those screenies is different frames of the traditional "Oh crap" coloring. Think rapidly pausing and unpausing the original SMB while you had a Star. There were some bizarre color combinations there that could definitely confuse someone if viewed outside of the original video.

Same thing here. You've got an entire animation versus two non-identical frames taken at different points in the animation. One's going to give you a very accurate overview of the animation; the other is going to give you snapshots that don't necessarily reflect the animation as a whole.

 

[Kentalish]

if u watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evajWSPy7SA

diddys up b makes him do the blinking thing i think its just sonics because more then one person can jump on the spring

 

[Tingle_Stole_My_Pants]

if u watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evajWSPy7SA

diddys up b makes him do the blinking thing i think its just sonics because more then one person can jump on the spring

Actually, that makes a lot of sense...

 

[altir]

i think fox lived because getting the smash ball and dieing right away would really suck. he spawns in a place where the tank can fit to avoid weird glitches.

 

[Wyvern]

Hey Wyvern dude! You were asking for someone to mention something about Samus that you may have missed, and it looks like you overlooked this message from the first page. That would solve your problem nicely, ne?

Thanks, I did miss that response. Unfortunately, nothing special happens at that part of the video. She gets hit by Pit between the two Screw Attacks, which would reset any freefall-like state one way or another.

As far as Diddy goes, I think the person playing him may have had slow fingers. You know when you tap the control stick up in melee, but you pushed B too late and you end up using the up-b in midair about an inch off the ground? Yeah... I haven't watched the movie yet. Forgive me if I'm wrong.

It's entirely possible. In fact, Samus seemed to suffer from that exact mistake in another video. However, I was only able to identify it by studying her animations in Melee. Naturally, I'm not familiar with how Diddy moves yet, so there's no way to know for sure if there was an accidental jump or not. For the time being, I'm just going to assume that he didn't, because this argument would lose its meaning if I said "oh, there was an accidental jump" every time opposing evidence came up without proof (I actually did manage to get a screenshot of the one jump frame in Samus's case).

See, the problem is, screenshots often don't do this much justice, because in order to get an accurate screenie comparison, you'd need identical video from the very beginning, and get the same exact frame for both shots. Which is pretty much impossible unless the developers were to specifically *outright* program two videos for that purpose.

What I think you're seeing in those screenies is different frames of the traditional "Oh crap" coloring. Think rapidly pausing and unpausing the original SMB while you had a Star. There were some bizarre color combinations there that could definitely confuse someone if viewed outside of the original video.

Same thing here. You've got an entire animation versus two non-identical frames taken at different points in the animation. One's going to give you a very accurate overview of the animation; the other is going to give you snapshots that don't necessarily reflect the animation as a whole.

Two things. First of all, there's no "in-between" coloring when someone's blinking. There is a darkened state and the regular state, and it toggles directly between the two, with no gradual fade in or out. That's how it was in Melee, anyway...I can't prove definitively that there isn't some sort of rapid flow, but it doesn't look like it happens. So, given that, it would be impossible for Samus to have a half-darkened coloration during a freefall blink.

Secondly, just looking at Samus it's obvious to me that she doesn't blink those two times. The flashing stands out a lot to me, and I definitely don't see it during those two grounded Screw Attacks. Other people seem to be having trouble noticing it, so the screenshots are the best I can do to try to demonstrate it (I can't very well run the video in slow-motion). I didn't just take those two screenshots and call it done...I chose them out of about 20 that I took, all the same color. You can try it yourself, if you want...take a couple dozen screenshots and see if you can ever get her to show up as a different color. I mean, if she was flashing, you'd have about a 50% chance of seeing her lit up. It shouldn't take too many tries, if she really is blinking. I'm quite certain that she isn't, though. (If you really want to try, though, the second Screw Attack of the match is the easiest to see. There's another grounded one later, but she gets knocked out of it too fast to get many good shots. And don't bother trying to pause; it tends to land in the same frame over and over again.)

 

[SolidSonic]

if u watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evajWSPy7SA

diddys up b makes him do the blinking thing i think its just sonics because more then one person can jump on the spring

I suspect that Snake will be able to attack after he uses his up-b jump. He spawns that cypher and it drags him back to the platform, I think other people will be able to stand on top of the cypher while snake is using it. Thus the cypher can be 'used' by other players just like Sonics spring can be used.

We will see.

 

[Wyvern]

Okay, new project for everyone!

According to this thread (http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=3046170&posted=1#post3046170), it's been confirmed that it's possible to jump after an airdodge. If my hunch is correct, this should mean that airdodging should trigger the same semi-freefall state that I see Samus in when she Screw Attacks from the ground. Does anyone know if there's a video out there that shows someone falling after an airdodge? The only airdodge I've seen so far is Mario in the Mario vs. Samus video, and he lands way to quickly to get anything out of it.

 

[Mama]

I think it would make sense for the fixed trajectory up-b's to have an open end like that. Give characters a chance to attack or maybe use a move that would help them recover across a horizontal distance. Nice read.

 

[SiD]

Brawl could either suck or be awesome because of this new information. I hope it's the latter.

 

[Mama]

Brawl could either suck or be awesome because of this new information. I hope it's the latter.

I don't see how it would suck because of this lol.

 

[SiD]

I don't see how it would suck because of this lol.

You don't think being able to attack/jump after Up B's and airdodges could be a bad thing?

 

[AS Juggernaut]

I haven't read the whole thread but I'd like to make some suggestion with Sonic's up B. Maybe since Sonic's up B becomes an item after use(other players can use the spring for a brief period) that it just counts it as him jumping on the spring as a regular jump.

 

[Gea]

Not only is that possible, it is correct. Why gimp Sonic using the spring but no one else? No one else freefalls after use of the spring.

 

[kinghippo99]

there was a link somewhere that said you can jump after an air dodge but not after an upB or some side b

 

[Mama]

You don't think being able to attack/jump after Up B's and airdodges could be a bad thing?

Not really. I think it could add some flare to the series. It would add some unpredictability to recovery and not make things as hum drum as edgeguarding/hogging is now. Also it seems like its only people with fixed trajectory up-b's (like Sonic and Samus) that can attack after the up-b which would make it harder to edge hog someone coming straight up.

You'd basically have to step your game up. I think it would be nice. They're little changes that will add new elements to the way we play the game. I've been playing Melee since the christmas of its release and I've been playing at "pro" level for about two years give or take a couple months. After a while you start to want something new. And while I think more characters would be more than enough (Melee's roster seems to grow smaller and smaller >.>) simple changes in the game's mechanics such as this may help in the long run.

I say we shouldn't shun change. It may seem bad at first but just look at the bright side.

 

[Silfa]

Not only is that possible, it is correct. Why gimp Sonic using the spring but no one else? No one else freefalls after use of the spring.

Hey, that's right! As Sonic's spring becomes an item that anyone can use and [assuming] everyone can attack after using the spring, why stop Sonic from having the ability? It would be kinda unfair, even if Sonic can summon the spring at anytime that allows it.

Sonic's looking very unique so far.

 

[GenG]

Destructoid also said that you can jump again after doing an airdodge. It seems that the limit now is the number of jumps you can use, and the "landfall special" is no more.

 

[SiD]

Not really. I think it could add some flare to the series. It would add some unpredictability to recovery and not make things as hum drum as edgeguarding/hogging is now. Also it seems like its only people with fixed trajectory up-b's (like Sonic and Samus) that can attack after the up-b which would make it harder to edge hog someone coming straight up.

You'd basically have to step your game up. I think it would be nice. They're little changes that will add new elements to the way we play the game. I've been playing Melee since the christmas of its release and I've been playing at "pro" level for about two years give or take a couple months. After a while you start to want something new. And while I think more characters would be more than enough (Melee's roster seems to grow smaller and smaller >.>) simple changes in the game's mechanics such as this may help in the long run.

I say we shouldn't shun change. It may seem bad at first but just look at the bright side.

But there may not be a bright side, it might not be a good thing, we haven't tried it yet, which is why I said it could suck or could be cool.....

 

[VA]

http://www.destructoid.com/hands-on-with-super-smash-bros-brawl-48983.phtml

Link to destructoid here.

So does this mean that people with multiple jumps can Jump to air dodge almost infinitely giving them even more cheating recovery than they already have?

 

[Kye L]

They've probably made it so that you can jump after an airdodge, but you can only airdodge once until you hit the ground again.

 

[Wyvern]

Here's another bit of supporting evidence to interject: As we all know, Sonic can always act after doing his up-B. However, in spite of this, his up-B always puts him into a vulnerable-looking limp spinning animation, which looks exactly what a freefall animation would look like. Exactly like Samus does. And he's not blinking, either...though I can't tell if he's darkened or not (he's dark blue to begin with, so I can't make it out).

This gets more and more conclusive the more I see. If we could just get proof that airdodging puts you in the same semi-freefall state that we've been seeing for Samus and Sonic, it'll be pretty much confirmed. Though we don't know for sure if airdodging and up-Bs are mutually exclusive, so airdodging not using semi-freefall wouldn't necessarily deconfirm it.

I'll bet the videos we get from the October 18th event will give us the final info we need, even if nobody intentionally tests it.

 

[Mama]

But there may not be a bright side, it might not be a good thing, we haven't tried it yet, which is why I said it could suck or could be cool.....

Well I like to look at the positives rather than letting myself get brought down by the bad possibilities lol.

I don't think the game could potentially suck because of one changed aspect but I do think that it could drastically change things that we were once used to. In times like this its good to not fear change (not saying you do) but I try to keep an open mind when I'm seriously anticipating a game. >.> I've already decided that it'll be the best game ever lol.

 

[Lemon Drop]

Pretty cool how you can jump after a air dodge. Though the article at destructoid didn't say he used it after his first jump or second jump.

 

[Mr_X]

I really wonder if this is going to "break" the game. Being able to jump after an airdodge is basically giving every character an extra jump. Add that to the floatiness of some characters....We'll see...though I'm not sure about this change if it's even plausible...

 

[Dogenzaka]

no, he died and used his FS after returning

It never showed that he died, did it?

 

[Wyvern]

I really wonder if this is going to "break" the game. Being able to jump after an airdodge is basically giving every character an extra jump. Add that to the floatiness of some characters....We'll see...though I'm not sure about this change if it's even plausible...

If my hunch is correct, then airdodging is probably going to prevent you from using an up-B (and probably vice versa). I can't really say for sure until we can see someone falling after doing an airdodge, though...

And most characters (i.e. everyone but Sonic so far) still can't do anything after using an up-B from the air, so that won't affect recovery at all. It would just make some moves useful as combo starters rather than being completely worthless like they are now.

 

[Mama]

I really wonder if this is going to "break" the game. Being able to jump after an airdodge is basically giving every character an extra jump. Add that to the floatiness of some characters....We'll see...though I'm not sure about this change if it's even plausible...

It would break the way Melee is played now perhaps. But Brawl is a new game meaning new tactics to be learned. It has to evolve as a whole you can't keep everything the same. More tactical options means more unique players rather than ever Marth playing the same way more or less.

The solution? Get better. Simple as that.

 

[Vortok]

First of all, if you die you lose your Final Smash. There's a vid where a Yoshi (vs Pit) gets a Smash Ball, but then Egg Rolls off the stage. Doesn't have the FS when he gets back. I think there's another of a white DK (kickass color!) that dies right at the end of a match with a FS, and doesn't have it when he returns in the last few seconds.

Secondly, I find it strange that in almost every single case that we see Sonic do an attack after an Up B, it's the same diagonal kick. Now it could just be that we have noobs playing and that's what you end up with when you mash the B button... but it seems strange that we haven't seen more variety other than a up kick one other time.

I think it'd be cool to still be able to do other stuff after an Up B, but something's a little fishy right now. Oh well, we'll know in about a week or so.

 

[SiD]

Well I like to look at the positives rather than letting myself get brought down by the bad possibilities lol.

I don't think the game could potentially suck because of one changed aspect but I do think that it could drastically change things that we were once used to. In times like this its good to not fear change (not saying you do) but I try to keep an open mind when I'm seriously anticipating a game. >.> I've already decided that it'll be the best game ever lol.

Yeah, well that's a good way to be dissapointed by a game, so I try to look at it more realisticly.

 

[Wyvern]

First of all, if you die you lose your Final Smash. There's a vid where a Yoshi (vs Pit) gets a Smash Ball, but then Egg Rolls off the stage. Doesn't have the FS when he gets back. I think there's another of a white DK (kickass color!) that dies right at the end of a match with a FS, and doesn't have it when he returns in the last few seconds.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about the Fox stuff. I just left it up there because that was the thing that got me thinking about this whole idea to begin with...the Samus evidence is much more direct and compelling.

Secondly, I find it strange that in almost every single case that we see Sonic do an attack after an Up B, it's the same diagonal kick. Now it could just be that we have noobs playing and that's what you end up with when you mash the B button... but it seems strange that we haven't seen more variety other than a up kick one other time.

I think it'd be cool to still be able to do other stuff after an Up B, but something's a little fishy right now. Oh well, we'll know in about a week or so.

In Sonic's introduction trailer, he clearly uses his up-air at the peak of the Spring Jump. I think that the people playing just tend to really like that kick move. I mean, if I'm playing Ganondorf and somebody is directly below me, a Thunderstomp is just gonna happen. It cannot be avoided. Alternately, go watch a newbie play Kirby and see what percentage of the time they use the rock when above somebody.

 

[Mama]

Yeah, well that's a good way to be dissapointed by a game, so I try to look at it more realisticly.

Lol. Well in my opinion theres a thin line between realistic observations and pessimism. I've seen enough of the game play to know I'll be satisfied with the speed and feel of the game. Mechanics are something I expect to have changed over the course of development. Like where will a certain attack cause someone to go, how much knock back will this move have now, and so on. Changes to simple things like jumping after a dodge are something that don't seem as bad as some people tend to look at them. Sure it may drastically change how players edge guard but where would the fun be if edge guarding was as simple as hanging on a ledge? Real tactics come into play when a person is able to face a challenge and come up with an intelligent solution and spicing up the recovery like this is just the thing players need.
Don't grow too attached to the old ways.

"The enemy of the brain is routine" (Kudos to those who know where that quote comes from.

 

[Vortok]

Even if it's not for all, it'd be awesome if we have our jumps (if we haven't used them) and/or Air Dodge after doing "recovery" moves. Like say when you accidentally Fox/Falco illusion off the stage. Or the far less common Side B with C. Falcon or Ganondorf off the stage. If you could still jump (but not use Up B, as you already used a B recovery move) it'd help cut down on lame suicides like that.

 

[Maben]

In this Sudden Death video, after Sonic and Metaknight you see Sonic do a up+B in the air over the left side of the level, and then do a dair in an attempt to hit Metaknight. This is proof that even when not done from the ground your recovery moves no longer make you immobile.

 

[Wyvern]

In this Sudden Death video, after Sonic and Metaknight you see Sonic do a up+B in the air over the left side of the level, and then do a dair in an attempt to hit Metaknight. This is proof that even when not done from the ground your recovery moves no longer make you immobile.

If you're not going to read through the whole thread, the least you could do is read the first post before you respond. We have witnessed many characters being unable to act after aerial-initiated recovery moves. Sonic is the only one so far who can do it from the air.

 

[Maben]

lol text makes me cry

 

[Wyvern]

lol text makes me cry

Forums may not be an appropriate place for you to hang out, then. Them being, you know, made entirely of text.

 

[Falco&Victory]

some pictures too lol
this thread has come along nicely.... but.... WHAT ABOUT METAKNIGHT AND MARIO'S UP+B?!?!?!?!?!

Maybe only random characters have weird up+b's like that...

 

[Acryte]

Smash ball proabably healed him or it was a later stock in the game... Its not a continuous clip because you can see that fox killed someone right before that (+1) and link died (-1) shows on the scoring thing just like it does in melee when you do that. He got a kill, then grabbed and used a smashball in a separate clip. Notice all the damages change too. Also look at where that smashball was, over the pit. Even in melee that forwardB would have ended and he would have grabbed the edge on the other side... seriously. Look at that gap, he is just close enought to sweetspot. I bet you he lived. But look at smashballs, they take a beating to give you the skill... I doubt a simple forwardB was enough. He hit it, then grabbed the edge then probably broke it and then used it later; or maybe that second clip is completely separate. Either way I highly doubt you can jump after a forward B, and I highly doubt you can still have a smash ball charged after dieing, or have the smashball heal your damage without it being character specific... and if it was, I'm sure that the healing part would have been mentioned when they announced and explained that move.