Mechanics of recovery moves changed? (Requesting E for All test!)

[CaliburChamp]

Your answer to this question.

From looking at all the videos I realize this...
Recovery (Up+B) moves starting from the ground makes your character not disabled after the recovery.
Recovery moves that start while your in mid-air make you disabled with nothing else you can do.
And you'll notice that Sonic used his Spring while on the ground and he was able to do other moves even after he used it. However, if Sonic used that move in mid-air he would be totally disabled after his recovery move.
Ive seen other videos with Sonic using his recovery in mid air to get back to the stage and he couldnt do anything else after that. Same with MetaKnight, one IGN editor guy kept on Up+Bing with Metaknight, and he was disabled with each Up+B he did. That video was taking on the Castle Siege, with Sonic, DK, Yoshi, and MetaKnight duking it out.

EDIT: Nevermind. It seems like Sonic can do moves after his recovery. It could be a glitch since they are still working on the game, and since Sonic is the most newly made character. So far only Sonic can attack after his recovery from what Ive seen.

 

[Wyvern]

Okay, I got what I needed. Now it's time for some photographic evidence!

Below are two lines of images from the IGN trailer. The shots on the LEFT show Samus after her first (airborne) Screw Attack. Note that she blinks between heavily darkened and normal-colored. The shots on the RIGHT show her after her second screw attack...the one that starts on the ground. She's in the same pose, but she's only half as dark, and stays that color the whole way down. She never blinks. No matter how many shots I take, she is always that same shade.

The grounded Screw Attack is noticeably different from the aerial Screw Attack. There'd be no reason for it to look different if there wasn't some mechanical difference between the states. I'm guessing that the half-freefall state on the right signifies an inability to do another up-B, but without restricting your other capabilities. Naturally, it could be something more restrictive than that, in theory. But it's clearly distinct from both the neutral and freefall states.

If you don't believe me, go analyze the high-res IGN video for yourself. There's only so much I can prove with still pictures, but I'm pretty confident with what I have here.

(For the record, Diddy is DEFINITELY in the regular freefall state when he does his up-B from the ground at the start of the Castle Siege trailer. I'm not going to bother with screenshots, because it's obvious. So evidently, not every character benefits from this semi-freefall mechanic. But it would appear that Samus does. What determines whether or not a character benefits is unknown, but my working theory is that characters with aimable up-Bs like Diddy and Fox will always full-freefall, and those with fixed-trajectory up-Bs like Samus and Mario will get the semi-freefall from the ground. Teleport moves might get an exception and get semi-freefalls, just because this would benefit them especially strongly, though that's probably just wishful thinking on my part.)

I'll update the first post with this information soon.

 

[Pyroloserkid]

I've been reading all your posts Wyvern and what you're saying makes total sense, and it also looks possible. From what I've seen though (from the demo), you can only attack after your recovery if you're on the ground, which CaliburChamp also stated.

 

[Zek]

Sonic does his Up+B in mid-air in the beginning of this video:

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/15422

and he's still clearly able to attack on the way down. Hasn't anyone seen a video clip where a veteran character falls from an Up+B? It could just be a special trait of Sonic's, but with all the talk about aerial combat in Brawl it's possible that the stun effect from recovery specials was removed. I can't believe no one who's played it has mentioned this though.

 

[SiD]

In the IGN Castle Siege vid, Diddy Kong uses his Up B multiple time, including from the ground, but isn't able to do anything afterwards.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=57Mqg1-lVoY

 

[Wyvern]

Sonic does his Up+B in mid-air in the beginning of this video:

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/15401

and he's still clearly able to attack on the way down. Hasn't anyone seen a video clip where a veteran character falls from an Up+B? It could just be a special trait of Sonic's, but with all the talk about aerial combat in Brawl it's possible that the stun effect from recovery specials was removed. I can't believe no one who's played it has mentioned this though.

Um, I don't see Sonic in that video at all. Are you sure you linked to the right video? What's the title?

And we have seen many characters use up-Bs from airborne positions, and they all get stuck in the freefall state. Up-Bs that start from the ground, though, might be a different story...at least for some characters.

In the IGN Castle Siege vid, Diddy Kong uses his Up B multiple time, including from the ground, but isn't able to do anything afterwards.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=57Mqg1-lVoY

Yes, I noticed that. Apparently, some characters (like Diddy) always get stuck in the freefall state no matter what. But a few posts up, I'm trying to show that Samus doesn't seem to behave that way. She might still be able to attack after a ground-based up-B...there's SOMEthing different about it, in any case.

Whatever is going on here, it doesn't affect all characters equally. That doesn't necessarily make it Sonic-only, though.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EDIT: I found what Zek was talking about, though on a different site: http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/116759.html

And he's absolutely right. Sonic uses a Spring Jump from high in the air, and is still able to do his flying kick thing.

So where the heck does this leave us? Sonic can always act after his up-B no matter where he is, Samus can only do it from the ground (maybe), and Diddy can never do it. This just keeps getting more and more complicated!

 

[Falco&Victory]

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/116759.html

WHODATHUNKIT!?

 

[Wyvern]

Okay, the front page has been updated with all the new information uncovered today.

And does nobody have a comment on my Samus analysis? That is, to me, the most interesting part of all this, because it's the one spot where we might be able to prove a non-Sonic character has access to some sort of new mechanic.

 

[Zek]

Um, I don't see Sonic in that video at all. Are you sure you linked to the right video? What's the title?

And we have seen many characters use up-Bs from airborne positions, and they all get stuck in the freefall state. Up-Bs that start from the ground, though, might be a different story...at least for some characters.

Fixed, I meant the Sudden Death one. At the very least, Sonic is clearly always able to use his dropkick following an Up+B, and I think he uses an aerial attack in his intro movie.

 

[SiD]

Maybe Sonic's Up B does no damage, so he can attack instead?

 

[Mr_X]

Interesting point SiD, but that still does not explain Samus. Well, technically we haven't seen Samus attack directly after using her screw attack like Sonic (unless I missed it) so Samus not blinking could have been a hitch in the game or something more, as we all suspect.

 

[Brasil]

Sorry, man, but everything about Samus after her Up+B points in the "Oh crap" direction. Samus is very obviously a darker shade, has limited mobility, and has the flicker. And even though as badly as the Samus player sucked, had they been able to, I'm fairly certain they would have tried to do something else after the Screw Attack.

I think the problem with the gameplay video is that it isn't a direct feed; it's instead off of the screen, which very well could distort the flicker effects. I know in my days doing video editing we had some crappy recordings if there were any type of displays in the background. I've watched the hi-def footage a few times now, and looped the Screw Attack portions. I'm seeing a flicker each time.

What you're seeing is likely just straight-up refresh interference, even though it seems like something else.

EDIT: Or it could very well be just a display bug in an early build of the game.

 

[DeNice]

You know, the more I see these vids, the more I think Sonic will be one of the (if not the only) characters that can attack after Up+B. I think it has something to do with the fact that the move is pure recovery and cannot attack on its own, hence how Sonic can still do moves after it. Every other character that uses Up+B is disabled after using it save for him, however, the only moves I have seen him do after Up+B are normal attacks and the dive kick (which I'm still saying is D+A.) Therefor he might not be able to use Side+B in conjunction with Up+B to have godly recovery. Sonic's normal air attacks don't have much horizontal recovery to take much notice of, so I think that helps him without him being broken too much.

 

[Wyvern]

Sorry, man, but everything about Samus after her Up+B points in the "Oh crap" direction. Samus is very obviously a darker shade, has limited mobility, and has the flicker. And even though as badly as the Samus player sucked, had they been able to, I'm fairly certain they would have tried to do something else after the Screw Attack.

Why would they have tried to do something? We're all trained to assume that you can't do anything after an up-B. And the fact that he doesn't fastfall shows that he doesn't flail around or anything. And I am almost 100% positive that there is either no flicker or a greatly diminished one.

I think the problem with the gameplay video is that it isn't a direct feed; it's instead off of the screen, which very well could distort the flicker effects. I know in my days doing video editing we had some crappy recordings if there were any type of displays in the background. I've watched the hi-def footage a few times now, and looped the Screw Attack portions. I'm seeing a flicker each time.

What you're seeing is likely just straight-up refresh interference, even though it seems like something else.

EDIT: Or it could very well be just a display bug in an early build of the game.

You seriously don't see ANY difference at all? I find that the flickering is blindingly apparent in every jump except that one, in which it's noticeably absent. Why would there be a display glitch in the video for ONLY that jump? Even if it's an off-screen camera, it never moves or zooms or anything like that. The flashing is there in every other jump but that one. And I know it's not my imagination or my monitor...I even took the still pictures just to make absolutely sure. The difference, even if it's a relatively slight one, is definitely there.

And it doesn't seem likely to me that it's an in-game display bug. What could possibly trigger it? If up-Bs have the same effect from the ground and from the air, then there's no real reason for the programming to distinguish them from one another and arbitrarily change the display on the grounded Screw Attack.

What I'd really love to see is an instance of Mario using his up-B from the ground. It's similar mechanically to Samus's, so surely if either of them are allowed to act after doing it, both of them would be.

 

[Falco&Victory]

so, samus can't do it, but apparently samus metaknight and pit can all attack after recovering

nice find

 

[Wyvern]

I don't think Metaknight can actually attack after doing his up-B. It just puts him in a gliding state with his sword out, so he can hit people by crashing into them. I'm pretty sure he goes into freefall if he breaks the glide.

And as for Pit...well, he has a wierd recovery. He can attack while he's flying, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that he'll go to freefall when the timer runs out.

If Samus can't do it, then it's a pretty safe bet that nobody's going to be able to do it, unless they make an exception for teleporters (perhaps due to the fact that their abilities are non-damaging). But I'm still not convinced she can't...I can't get over the fact that she isn't blinking after that one Screw Attack.

 

[MunkyMan33]

I think Sid is spot on with this one.

 

[Falco&Victory]

Samus is without a doubt blinking after her up+b

 

[Hydde]

Talking about samus... i noticed that her up smash is better.... his laggy grab now is quicker (oh noes :O ) and overall she has improved...

but she is slightly more floatier

 

[Falco&Victory]

everyone is slightly more floaty, watch Mario's aerial DI

it's insane

 

[Wyvern]

I just watched through the trailer again, and it turns out there's actually one more point in which Samus screw-attacks from the ground. Unfortunately, giant-Pit knocks her out of it pretty quick, so I can't tell for sure if she blinks or not. However, I took a picture of her darkened state and compared it to the darkened state from an aerial-performed Screw Attack.

Once again, there's a noticeable difference between the two. Am I really the only one on the forum noticing these differences in color and lighting?

 

[Takumaru]

Samus is blinking after her screw attack, however it seems that she can go higher with it. I'd assume that the samus player was pressing the B button rapidly because it looks like here height varied each time she used it. If that's the case then samus is going to be sexier with recovery. She also seemed to fall faster which is good/bad IMO.

 

[SiD]

Wyvern, in the 7 minute video on Gamespot, Samus vs Mario, you can clearly see her blinking after she used the screw attack.

http://www.gamespot.com/video/928518/6180852/super-smash-bros-brawl-gameplay-demo

 

[Brasil]

I really do think what you're seeing is attributed to new changes to how the characters jump or some type of display issue that non-direct recordings are notorious for. I'm seeing flickers after each Up+B. On my monitor, there's no significantly darker or lighter hues.

I've watched each video numerous times now, and even went frame-by-frame, and I'm becoming certain that it only looks like Samus Up+B's in air. Even in Melee there was always a hint of what could have been construed as an actual jump, right before her Screw Attack animation started. What we see here is merely the changes made to jumping, for the revisions to the aerial game:

People have already made threads about how much "floatier" all the characters seem to be this time around. We've already noticed the insane jump height increases to all the characters.

And here, with Up+B recovery, there may very well be a bizarre inconsistency between Sonic and the rest of the roster, which kind of makes perfect when you think about how they're trying to give Sonic some sort of attractive moveset.

Cause right now, he still only has Dash and Spin, and both of those are mapped to the same button. From what we've seen, he has very few standard kill moves, he certainly could be a lightweight character, and his Up+B recovery special propels him so far up into the air that it'd make him a prime target for massive Category 5 pain.

I think it's a balance issue more than anything, cause I know I'd certainly exploit such a recovery move if I knew the character couldn't do anything after popping up that high.

 

[Dogenzaka]

Um Wyvern, what happened was is he used Fox Illusion, and attacked the Smash Ball in midair, activating his FS immediately, and perhaps the Landmaster spawns on the nearest piece of terrain, so that's how he immediately got back on the bridge. At least that's what I think.

 

[Falco&Victory]

Um Wyvern, what happened was is he used Fox Illusion, and attacked the Smash Ball in midair, activating his FS immediately, and perhaps the Landmaster spawns on the nearest piece of terrain, so that's how he immediately got back on the bridge. At least that's what I think.

no, he died and used his FS after returning

either that or smash balls heal you upon use

 

[Wyvern]

Wyvern, in the 7 minute video on Gamespot, Samus vs Mario, you can clearly see her blinking after she used the screw attack.

http://www.gamespot.com/video/928518/6180852/super-smash-bros-brawl-gameplay-demo

Hmmm...that's weird. She's definitely fully blinking in that video...but I'm sure I'm not crazy when I say that she doesn't blink from the ground in the Delphino Plaza video. I suppose I could try to justify the whole thing by assuming that Samus accidentally jumped a little in the Gamespot trailer (as a Link player, I can confirm that that sort of thing happens all the time), but by that point there are just way too many unknowns for me to be able to make any kind of confident conclusion.

So, I guess it doesn't look like anyone other than Sonic so far can definitively do this. Other characters might turn out to have the ability in the future (I really want to keep my eye on the teleporters...), but one way or another, this is looking like something that's determined on a character-to-character basis rather than any kind of widespread mechanic. Therefore, I guess I'll have to concede that it's "false until proven true" for any individual character.

(I really want to know what the deal with that IGN video is though, regardless of whether or not it has any gameplay-related repercussions.)

I really do think what you're seeing is attributed to new changes to how the characters jump or some type of display issue that non-direct recordings are notorious for. I'm seeing flickers after each Up+B. On my monitor, there's no significantly darker or lighter hues.

If ALL the jumps looked non-blinking, then I'd have believed that it was a non-direct recording problem right away. But why would it just so happen to only happen to two of them, when the camera never moves? It's really bizarre. But whatever it is, it probably isn't gameplay related, since SiD's video is pretty definitive.

But you really don't see any color differences? Not even in the screenshots I've been posting? It doesn't really seem possible that my monitor would display more colors than someone else's looking at the exact same saved MS Paint image...but I really don't know much about computer hardware.

 

[SiD]

Yes, this is weird, cause I see what you're saying in the Delfino Plaza vid as well. But she is still free falling, just not blinking. I'm confused...Oh well, guess we'll just have to wait till next week.

 

[Wyvern]

Oh, bloody hell. I just noticed something else.

Spoiler

Why can't I just let it die?!

I'm starting to think that Samus really DID accidently jump a little in the Gamespot video.

See, I was poking around in slow-motion Training Mode in Melee just now, and I noticed something. When Samus does the Screw Attack from the ground, she crouches down into a ball first, and then launches upwards, but when she does it in the air, the upwards movement starts right away (as in, she whips her legs up over her head and curls from the bottom up, so she pulls up instead of ducking down, keeping the uppermost part of her body constantly moving up).

I see that crouch frame when she hits Ike in Delphino Plaza, but NOT when she hits Mario...she starts moving up instantly there. Upon closer inspection, I noticed that Samus has much fewer jump frames in general compared to Melee (she doesn't crouch and then jump like she used to, she just goes), so an accidental jump could have easily gone unnoticed (incidently, this could be bad news for the wavedash, but that's for another thread).

I'm literally almost ashamed for sticking with this argument through such horrible depths of improbability, but I can't help but look for every last detail before I give up on it. The graphical irregularities in the Plaza torment me endlessly!

 

[Falco&Victory]

wyvern.... stop.... this.... this is blasphemy.... THIS IS MADNESS!

 

[Wyvern]

I know, but I can't help it! *sob*

 

[SiD]

*Looks around*

Well, someone's gotta do it.


THIS! IS! SPARTA!!!!

 

[Wyvern]

Oh my god. You have GOT to be kidding me.

The one on the left is paused the instant after Samus hits the ground, before the Screw Attack. She's jumping. The one on the right is the first frame of the Screw Attack against Ike. She tucks before she launches. I don't see any way around it...the one against Mario isn't really grounded.

Sorry everyone, but I guess you can't go home just yet.

 

[Falco&Victory]

OH! AND IT'S A SAVE BY WYVERN! HE'S TAKING THIS ONE ALL THE WAY!

BUUUUUUUUUUUUT Sonic used his up+b from the air and could still attack, explain THAT one masked hero

 

[::FalcoFTW::]

Well, seems like an interesting prospect that could make for more intense aerial battles. Guess we'll have to wait till we get the demo/final product

 

[Wyvern]

OH! AND IT'S A SAVE BY WYVERN! HE'S TAKING THIS ONE ALL THE WAY!

BUUUUUUUUUUUUT Sonic used his up+b from the air and could still attack, explain THAT one masked hero

Um, Sonic is extra-wacky? What do you want from me? We are well past the point where we used to say "Sonic can do this so maybe other people can too". We are done caring about Sonic. It's all about the suspicious secrets of Samus's Screw Attacks now. Get with the program, man!

 

[S_B]

I'm going to point out a few things here:

1. Sonic is a completely melee-based combatant. Not only is his range the length of his arms (which isn't much), but he has no other means of attack except physical, close range attacks.

2. Sonic's Up+B doesn't seem to be an attack, just a boost upward. I'm sure that, in his case, Sonic would routinely get stomped if his primary life-saving maneuver could be smacked right back down, since there's no danger in him hitting you as he uses it.

3. This game will have more characters than any before it and I've already begun noticing fine details in character movement speed and such which says that there will be more of a "gradient" when it comes to character performance. It's readily possible that additional variables such as post-Up+B attacks will be added to the list of defining features which serves to differentiate characters.

So yeah, Sonic could be one of these types, whereas it might also be the case that launching an up+B from the ground doesn't burn your ability to attack afterwards as well.

In either case, good observation on this.

 

[Burning Lava]

Didn't Sakurai clearly say that he wanted to make better arial combat? The ability to stay in the air indeffinintly would surly be an advance in arial combat

Thats what I was thinking, except for the "indefinitely" part. It would probably be just one up B until you hit the ground again, but youll be able to use any other attack indefinitely.

Maybe the "being helpless after up B" has been annoying Sakurai for years, and thats why its one of the first things we learned about the new gameplay; that he intended to put more emphasis on aerial combat. (by removing up B paralysis)

 

[MunkyMan33]

either way wyvern you've done some great detective work. What other blasphe.... ehem ideas do you have on brawl?

 

[Takeshi245]

Actually, it seems like Sonic can only attack after his front flip. If that's the case, you can punish him while he's going up.