Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[Donkey Bong]

bsticking can be done without setting your Cstick to special moves, you just have to have a quick left thumb
remember all that dash dancing you did in melee? well now is the time to actually apply it lawlz

It might, but it would be pretty hard to pull it out against the glide since MK can just dip down and aim lower if he sees it coming.

true, but it depends on where he starts his glide, because hes limited to a certain glide range

i'm going to test it out with my friend today and let you guys know what the result is

 

[Donkey Bong]

whoops, sorry about double post

 

[itsthebigfoot]

glide attack coming from really high can be punished with a running usmash, from low with an fsmash, and if he comes in just right your only option is gfsc

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ok, the major thing i found i just deconfirmed (pretty much), so i'm just going to post all my findings now


if you SDI a fair, its a free charged punch, if you do not have a charged punch, you can use a fastfalled upb, however, the fastfalled upb is MUCH easier to land if you bstick

SDI'ing straight up will get you out of the tornado, guaranteed

upb out of shield punishes a whole lot, use it

if you can SDI the fair, then you're pretty much set. why? camp meta with downb, it forces him to go into the air, the only thing fast enough to punish is a fair, which will result in a punch to his face, everything else you can shield in time and punish with a grab or gfsc headbutt

i've tested this against the local metaknight, and will hopefully be able to get a few matches with better metaknights in a week or two, but it's REALLY useful, once you get SDI down you should try it out.

theres more but i didn't write it down so i'll mention it when it comes up.

 

[Donkey Bong]

ok quick questions

what is SDI and how do you do it?

for upb's out of shield, do you hold down the shield button while you input the upb command?

 

[Nokonoko]

Smash DI (aka SDI) is something significantly different from normal DI. During hitlag (if you're being hit), if you input one of the 8 most cardinal directions on the control stick, you will get an instantaneous change in position in the direction you input. This is good for escaping multiple hit attacks such as MK's neutral/ Side B attacks, fox's uair, many of Lucas' attacks, etc... Note: In order to SDI with the C-stick (set to smash/ special), you must return the C-stick to center before any additional SDI inputs will register, unlike the ability of the control stick to SDI while rolling it back and forth.

Note: You cannot SDI in any downward direction if you were hit while you were in the ground, even if you SDIed Upward first.

There you go.

 

[Donkey Bong]

so basically you're DI'ing with both sticks right?

thanks

 

[Nokonoko]

Eh? You’re just trying to change your position before knockback to be in a good position for punishing, in this case. Probably faster to just mash the control stick, not worry about C …

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

Don't know where it was or wasn't said, and I don't think editing my wall of text will help, so i'll just leave this here.

DK's Dtilt clashes with the tornado. Doesn't go through, but it stops it.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

this matchup seems to be deadlocked at 50-50, no side willing to budge. The one great thing DK has over mk is weight. MK can die very early (u-smash kills around 65-75% i believe), while DK can survive a long time thanks to his weight and great horizontal recovery, and especially if MK likes to spam d-smash and loop in which you'll be living until around 180%.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

This is at least a 6-4 for MK, and anybody who thinks otherwise isn't looking at the facts. What high level MK player has been knocked out in a tournament by a high level DK player? Oh yeah, none. In fact, just a few weeks ago Bum was knocked out by two MKs (Inui and teh_spamerer, IIRC). Inui was using MK for the first time in tournament then, and he tornado spammed Bum to death.

There are 2 huge factors here, ignoring everything else that would take too much time, that severely push MK above DK here.
1. Tornado
Sure, some of DK's moves go through the tornado. But a smart MK will know how to shield poke DK or catch him with a tornado when he least expects it. Then, DK is at the MK's mercy, because DK doesn't have any options against smart tornado spam when he's launched up.

2. Recovery
MK DESTROYS DK's recovery. Period. Trying to grab the edge to recover against a good MK results in your swift death. And DK can't do anything in that situation.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

2. Recovery
MK DESTROYS DK's recovery. Period. Trying to grab the edge to recover against a good MK results in your swift death. And DK can't do anything in that situation.

Thats where i have to disagree. DK's up-B has ridiculous priority. Most of MKs moves can only hit him out if theyre VERY well timed (Dair and Shuttle loop). Many MKs will try to edguard with fair, which simply wont work. Good MKs probably wont, but you'll have to grab that ledge with great timing to edguard DK and have your invincibility last the duration of the move. Options form grabbing the edge is a different story though
I'm not saying MK cant edguard DK, just saying it's not DESTRYOED as you say

 

[itsthebigfoot]

This is at least a 6-4 for MK, and anybody who thinks otherwise isn't looking at the facts. What high level MK player has been knocked out in a tournament by a high level DK player? Oh yeah, none. In fact, just a few weeks ago Bum was knocked out by two MKs (Inui and teh_spamerer, IIRC). Inui was using MK for the first time in tournament then, and he tornado spammed Bum to death.

There are 2 huge factors here, ignoring everything else that would take too much time, that severely push MK above DK here.
1. Tornado
Sure, some of DK's moves go through the tornado. But a smart MK will know how to shield poke DK or catch him with a tornado when he least expects it. Then, DK is at the MK's mercy, because DK doesn't have any options against smart tornado spam when he's launched up.

2. Recovery
MK DESTROYS DK's recovery. Period. Trying to grab the edge to recover against a good MK results in your swift death. And DK can't do anything in that situation.

If i remember right, bum knock inui out next time they met. I'm not 100% on that, i know bum won and inui got like 4th/5th. and bum hasn't worked in gfsc headbutts and SDIing fairs to punish with punches, both of which are very useful against metaknight

also, in the tournament that inui knocked him out, bum won 4 rounds, inui won 3...

for tornado, you might have missed the post , but last page (maybe two pages ago) i kinda pointed out how you can escape the tornado by SDI-ing up... i can do it pretty consistently.

also, the recovery, the two things that can break your upb is a very well spaced dair (the dk almost has to be on autopilot for it to land) and a shuttle loop, coming from below, which usually hits with the weak part of the attack, maybe the mks in california are doing it wrong, but i haven't had problems

 

[Big O]

I have a few questions. What direction do you SDI MK's fair to get the free punch? Is it different if MK is close or far? When do you SDI upwards to escape the tornado because I have tried doing it in training mode and it seems if MK does a rising tornado I can't get out?

 

[Nokonoko]

Eh? At some tournament in October, didn’t Bum beat Inui?

Bigfoot, you guys keep making a big deal out of the GFSC, so does that mean you’ve got some match videos of it being used?

 

[Ripple]

I have a few questions. What direction do you SDI MK's fair to get the free punch? Is it different if MK is close or far? When do you SDI upwards to escape the tornado because I have tried doing it in training mode and it seems if MK does a rising tornado I can't get out?

1. away from him and up.
2. no.
3. you have to DI the first hit, I think bigfoot might be wrong on this. I'll go test

 

[Luigi player]

The tornado is so annoying..... this alone makes it 60:40 for MK...

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Eh? At some tournament in October, didn’t Bum beat Inui?

Bigfoot, you guys keep making a big deal out of the GFSC, so does that mean you’ve got some match videos of it being used?

no match videos yet, can't get a hold of the recorder, landed it both times i tried in tournament though

and yeah, bum did, ban mk people like forgetting when he loses

I have a few questions. What direction do you SDI MK's fair to get the free punch? Is it different if MK is close or far? When do you SDI upwards to escape the tornado because I have tried doing it in training mode and it seems if MK does a rising tornado I can't get out?

away and up
for the tornado, first hit will get you out, or if you're already in it, di up and upb will get you out (might get punished but you're out)

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

2. Recovery
MK DESTROYS DK's recovery. Period. Trying to grab the edge to recover against a good MK results in your swift death. And DK can't do anything in that situation.

In this matchup, DK is not often found in a situation where he can't recover above the stage because, although his vertical recovery is phail, MK's don't often send DK low enough for this to be an issue. And his weight means he probably won't fly too far out, either, basically guaranteeing him a good chance at recovery until ~150%.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

DI the dsmash into the corner and you really shouldn't be out over the edge, especially if you SDI fairs

 

[DK SmAsH]

This is at least a 6-4 for MK, and anybody who thinks otherwise isn't looking at the facts. What high level MK player has been knocked out in a tournament by a high level DK player? Oh yeah, none. In fact, just a few weeks ago Bum was knocked out by two MKs (Inui and teh_spamerer, IIRC). Inui was using MK for the first time in tournament then, and he tornado spammed Bum to death.

There are 2 huge factors here, ignoring everything else that would take too much time, that severely push MK above DK here.
1. Tornado
Sure, some of DK's moves go through the tornado. But a smart MK will know how to shield poke DK or catch him with a tornado when he least expects it. Then, DK is at the MK's mercy, because DK doesn't have any options against smart tornado spam when he's launched up.

2. Recovery
MK DESTROYS DK's recovery. Period. Trying to grab the edge to recover against a good MK results in your swift death. And DK can't do anything in that situation.

i beat Kornnns MK in tourny with DK...and can rival Fortes...all other MKs i destroy with DK...but yeah tornado spamming is pretty lame and effective for the most part

 

[Ripple]

guess what's funny and yet very effective

as soon as a meta hits your shield with a glide attack you can pretty much get off a free fair since well over half the metas now use 2 d smashes in a row right after a glide attack.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

that actually works, i used to just upb to SA the dsmash, or roll back and downb, but fair seems like a better option

 

[The Pope]

I'll have to try that too actually because I usually do what bigfoot does as well.

 

[i1337]

Play an amazing Dk and youll see what cbk means and dont let him hit you out of tornado or its over.

 

[CBK]

Play an amazing Dk and youll see what cbk means and dont let him hit you out of tornado or its over.

 

[Nokonoko]

10memes

So … what do high-up MK mains go on the record as saying about the matchup?

 

[itsthebigfoot]

a couple months ago dsf told me that he thought dk wasn't the best but he wasn't sure because he hasn't played the matchup much

inui thought it was 6:4 mk, but recently lost to bum again, so he might change his mind

 

[Luigi player]

So... what should DK do to get around the tornado spam?

And how should he stop it? Isn't there anything you could do?

I normally just CP Brinstar with DK, but I can't do that if my enemy is using MK because he can just tornado the whole time and I can't do anything... oh god I hate DKs laggy dair/fair >_>

 

[Nokonoko]

Well, if you’re on the ground, tilts and SA punch are meant to get through.

When above, will dair or nair work?

If you’re caught in it, DI up and away …

 

[itsthebigfoot]

if he approaches with it, ftilt, fsmash, downb, and the punch will all break it, just make sure to aim for the mk and not the edge of the tornado. up close SDI up, if you still can't get out, start mashing upb

 

[Griever618]

It actually depends on how they approach if they tornado on ground all the stuff bigfoot says is easy and do that. But if they are good they will go to hit the top of your shield until they poke through. What you can do is jumping SA punch to hit his hurt box, or up angled Ftilt. if your back turned a well placed Bair. Never try and beat tornado with your kongokopter.

 

[Donkey Bong]

yeah a punch will go through, even without the SA

one of my favorite things to do with DK (just for lawlz) is to start spamming upb and yelling "hey look guys i'm teh metaknightz!"

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

one of my favorite things to do with DK (just for lawlz) is to start spamming upb and yelling "hey look guys i'm teh metaknightz!"

This is now officially on my tourney To-Do list ^ ^

 

[Griever618]

CBK-on grievers COmp.

 

[Luigi player]

Well at Brinstar there is not much ground and if I ever happen to hang on the edge I'm screwed. If I'm above him he can just tornado a bit away so the dair won't hit him...

I had some 2vs2 matches and CP Brinstar and one of the enemies was MK... he just tornado'd the **** out of me. It was the only move the MK did and I couldn't do anything to get out of it... sometimes my team mate tried to stop him and a few seconds later I was trapped in it again...

Something like that really sucks and this would also be the only reason why I'd want MK banned >_>

Sometimes tilts etc. hit him out of it but sometimes they don't =/
The thing is... if you're hit once you will just pop up and DK can't do anything if he's just a little bit above MK and the MK can just tornado again. If I upB away I could also get punished and it just makes the fight a bit longer (or MK punishes the landing lag of my upB or if I try to go for the edge I might miss it or he can edgehog...)...

 

[itsthebigfoot]

upb to the ledge, grab the ledge, no lag

new character time, i'm thinking olimar

 

[daisho]

if he approaches with it, ftilt, fsmash, downb, and the punch will all break it, just make sure to aim for the mk and not the edge of the tornado. up close SDI up, if you still can't get out, start mashing upb

In my experience down B doesn't stop the tornado as he is not really on the ground when he uses it. I always assumed it COULD stop the tornado if the metaknight was literally on the ground but I am yet to witness it.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

thats why i said 4-5, downb is kinda iffy, works when he's close to the ground though

EDIT: olimar time

Summary of matchup: he camps you a lot, but the camp doesn't screw up your approach, meaning you could bair him while he's camping, then knock the pikmin off once he's off the ledge. smash, fsmash, nair, and upb are great for killing pikmin. you have a really good gimp game, he's easy to gimp, but don't consider it a free kill once he's off the edge, he can make it back if you're not careful

 

[i1337]

ugh.....i HATE olimar. hes too small to hit with bair...lol...

also, play an amazing Dk and youll see what i mean and dont let me edgehog your upb or its over.