Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[Timbers]

Of stage Dk can mash up b and carry Lucario all the way back and if he lands the right way down smash guaranteed since no lag land.

uB is fairly easy to DI out of, I don't think that's going to be a marker in this matchup. Also trying to combat Lucario in the air with a uair will, more often than not, get a dair to the face. Luc's dair is 4 frame startup and has an impressive amount of range, and also stalls him. It's not like we're forced to land on top of you or airdodge.

I still agree that Giant Punch is a huge deal in this match, as Luc sacrifices speed on his moves for lingering and ranged hitboxes to avoid punishment. When Something can get right in your face, having that much range and power, it's a big deal.

I don't know if I'd throw it in DK's favor, but it's definitely no worse than neutral for DK.

 

[Skink]

lol

No smart players roll into or behind their opponent, especially against DK who can punish that very well.

You're also from Memphis...

You're from SoCal. I'm so sorry.

Also, I made a mistake. My apologies, although I'm glad to feed the ego's of people who derive their only satisfaction from being pedantic douches about video games online. You're welcome.

 

[tedward2000]

Soup Dk's.

So, yea unlike Timbers here, I'm going to keep my mouth shut.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=183087
^^^^ us talking about Luc vs. DK.

Should help a bit.
-t2

 

[Timbers]

That entry is fairly outdated ted, and is somewhat inaccurate.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Lucario is after Dedede my hardest matchup with DK.

DK can't get through Lucarios attacks because they have about the same range, but he doesn't extend his hurtbox, so DK will most likely always get hit and the Lucario not so often.

60:40 in Lucarios favour.

no

lol

No smart players roll into or behind their opponent, especially against DK who can punish that very well.

You're also from Memphis...

be nice spencer

also, if you know the matchup, sometimes rolling behind them works really well at certain points. it destroys samuses zair camp. but for lucario against dk, your not gonna roll into it much, unless you know they won't expect it.

against lucario, your usmash will beat his dair if you hit at full length. the good news is every lucario will take the challenge for the first 3-4 times, and usmash kills very early. bad news is, people learn from mistakes

i'd also like it to be know that you can wiggle out of the cg until about 20%, so you'll probably take one hit(since you won't expect the grab) and then wiggle out on the next grab.

counterpick stages where you can delay your hitboxes, because they will try to punish your fsmash, which kills them very early, and, if delayed on luigis support beam, will catch them as they go in for the punish.

not sure what gfsc can punish oos in this matchup, haven't tested it enough, but if you get a powershield you can headbutt most of his ground moves

 

[Tujex]

Never had a problem with Lucario, but the again I've never played a pro Luc before.

I know his range rivals DK's, Fair combos/chains well, and he dies very easily....and he isn't much trouble until above 100%.

 

[Timbers]

i'd also like it to be know that you can wiggle out of the cg until about 20%, so you'll probably take one hit(since you won't expect the grab) and then wiggle out on the next grab.

This.

However, (jab->jab->)forcepalm->fair->dair/nair is still a true combo, assuming the forcepalm connects. At what percents it stops working is entirely dependent on the two character's percentages. Generally it should rack a good 30-35%, so it's something to keep in mind, especially if the Lucario decides to throw in two forcepalms instead of just one, which can change the 30-35 to an easy 40, and the followups to come.

With all that said, DK can land like 3 hits and he does the same damage, but just saying that forcepalm is still a viable move in the low percent game.

 

[Samuelson]

You're from SoCal. I'm so sorry.

Also, I made a mistake. My apologies, although I'm glad to feed the ego's of people who derive their only satisfaction from being pedantic douches about video games online. You're welcome.

I'm just saying that you most likely havn't play that experienced players...yet

@Bigfoot, i guess i'll be nice to your fellow DK mains Sam, i want a rematch!

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ok, you can have a rematch next time, and it probably won't be in tournament, so i won't two stock you as hard.

also, timbers, correct me if I'm wrong but can't you DI the two jabs so the force palm whiffs?

 

[Timbers]

Jab cancels are just a common setup for forcepalm. They're not necessary for the setup, which is why they were thrown in parentheses. If forcepalm connects, so will the fair and nair/dair given that DK doesn't go flying when the forcepalm hits him.

The whole point of tht post was that while it's possible to "wiggle" out of the forcepalm chain, still be wary of it as it does set up combos marvelously well.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

i'm not too familiar with lucarios lag time, but any of his laggy aerials can get punished with headbutts, as with all other characters

also, edgeguarding lucario is easy if he doesn't have a charged aura sphere, if he does have the sphere, bait it, then bair lucario till he dies

 

[Timbers]

i'm not too familiar with lucarios lag time, but any of his laggy aerials can get punished with headbutts, as with all other characters

also, edgeguarding lucario is easy if he doesn't have a charged aura sphere, if he does have the sphere, bait it, then bair lucario till he dies

Luc is never thrown into a position where he'll be in landing lag with aerials. You'd technically be able to headbutt a uair and bair's landing lag, but for either of those to be used that close to the ground is very unrealistic.


Also I don't really like going through this on every character's matchup board, but Luc's recovery isn't as hopless as everyone makes it out to be. With the combination of floaty nature, good aerial movement, dair stalling, a surprisingly high midair, and lingering aerials/projectile to help fend off any pursuit, and you're going to have a much harder time keeping him from the stage than originally believed. Once Luc is on the ledge however, that's a whole 'nother story. DK's ledge pressure is amazing, but the trade-off is that he's pretty easy bait for fsmash and aurasphere edgeguarding.

It's a tradeoff, both of them edgeguard each other extremely well.

 

[CBK]

NO I see what he's saying but still his recovery is still even with the delayed stall moves makes it hard since it lags him when he does get back to the stage. But then again I've only played Seris and a few others that I haven't played regularly. I know Lucario is good, and can give DK a hard time, but if Lucario doesn't survive to killing percent then it's really hard to win with him since under 100%, a fully charged Fsmash while luc is under 100 can't kill DK on Smashville with semi good DI. But above 100 it becomes a whole different match about killing him before he can do serious damage, and over 100 it's scary lag hit boxes then start to hurt a lot.

 

[Samuelson]

ok, you can have a rematch next time, and it probably won't be in tournament, so i won't two stock you as hard.

Yeah and this time maybe you won't SD also LOL

and i'm NEVER going to get Fsmashed off the ledge again. I didn't even realize that was possible.

 

[Kitamerby]

NO I see what he's saying but still his recovery is still even with the delayed stall moves makes it hard since it lags him when he does get back to the stage. But then again I've only played Seris and a few others that I haven't played regularly. I know Lucario is good, and can give DK a hard time, but if Lucario doesn't survive to killing percent then it's really hard to win with him since under 100%, a fully charged Fsmash while luc is under 100 can't kill DK on Smashville with semi good DI. But above 100 it becomes a whole different match about killing him before he can do serious damage, and over 100 it's scary lag hit boxes then start to hurt a lot.

Put Lucario at 150, just for giggles, even though he probably won't get that high (unless you're playing on Japes or Luigi's Mansion or something, one of which will almost definitely be his counterpick if he loses), and see how low DK dies.

Also, I believe Lucario kills DK at around 120% or so with good DI when Lucario's around 100%, if I recall correctly? So, combined with Lucario's damage output compared to the damage he'll be taking from each of DK's hits, they'll probably still die around the same time.

Also, little thing to remember. Don't let your guard down if you're one or even two stocks away. Lucario's aura is nice in that we get a pretty decent extra boost when down a stock, and as such it is entirely possible to make a comeback from almost any situation.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

with good DI against dk with luc at 100%, dk will die in the 140 range on most moves, if the dk runs into a charged fsmash, maybe not, but for the extent of most kill moves, 130-140, sometimes 150 depending on the stage.

also, luigis mansion and japes are dks best stages, so CPing them might not be the best idea, especially with dk's low % ko shenanigans on japes. and brinstar (another one of dks best) is pretty bad for luc since low blastzones mean you don't live long

 

[Browny]

argh enough of this 100%... thing

lucarios launch speed follow a linear relationship with his damage. There is no 'jump' from 99-101. also remember his fsmash has a tipper effect, quite a bit stronger than normal

Also i see no reason why lucario would ever put himself in a situation where he can be KO'd low by DK. youve got the single most evasive characters in the game, with a ridiculous long ranged, low lag fsmash. powerful stopping projectile and high aerial mobility vs someone with no projectile and a single aerial approach. Lucario can camp like crazy the entire match. force DK into an aerial approach every single time at which point his only option is to b-air. roll away, AS/fsmash and repeat. Sure this may not work on stages like BF but I dont see why Lucario shouldnt be camping as much as possible here.

 

[CBK]

But what can he make him approach with because if he's under 100, where damage doesn't increases and Aura ball's hitbox doesn't grow, Dk can just camp and f tilt all the balls even a fully charged ball it's too easy. Camping and aura balls are not what make this hard, the dodge roll is huge and makes it hard to lock him down yes. But aura ball isn't that good unless he has the increased damage. Dk doesn't need to go into the air because of the ability to hit Luc's projectiles. Trust me if it was like falco's lazers that go through hit boxes it would be hard and yes we would be forced to approach. But since that isn't the case this isn't at all as easy as you put it. Test it and see how easy it is, Dk can approach with F tilt all day long.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

But what can he make him approach with because if he's under 100, where damage doesn't increases and Aura ball's hitbox doesn't grow

lol... wut? You didn't even read a word Browny said, did you?

Dk can just camp and f tilt all the balls even a fully charged ball it's too easy.

Oh god, here we go again.

 

[Alus]

Test it and see how easy it is, Dk can approach with F tilt all day long.

*decides to add to ignore list...*

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Also i see no reason why lucario would ever put himself in a situation where he can be KO'd low by DK. youve got the single most evasive characters in the game, with a ridiculous long ranged, low lag fsmash. powerful stopping projectile and high aerial mobility vs someone with no projectile and a single aerial approach. Lucario can camp like crazy the entire match. force DK into an aerial approach every single time at which point his only option is to b-air. roll away, AS/fsmash and repeat. Sure this may not work on stages like BF but I dont see why Lucario shouldnt be camping as much as possible here.

going against our fsmash which has more range and priority than yours, our super armor punches and 9 frame dsmash (from my testing its in the 8-11 range, for initial hitbox, the most common result seems to be 9 though)

and no, you can't force us into an aerial approach, we have ftilt and a shield, we're fine on the ground, and you especially can't loop the roll away fsmash if we go aerial, since we can just jump back again and bair you. lucarios camp game is not enough to stop dk

 

[Timbers]

going against our fsmash which has more range and priority than yours, our super armor punches and 9 frame dsmash (from my testing its in the 8-11 range, for initial hitbox, the most common result seems to be 9 though)

and no, you can't force us into an aerial approach, we have ftilt and a shield, we're fine on the ground, and you especially can't loop the roll away fsmash if we go aerial, since we can just jump back again and bair you. lucarios camp game is not enough to stop dk

More priority? They clank. I honestly can't think of anything that outprioritizes Luc's fsmash. If you really want to talk about the fsmashes though, we can talk about how the possibility of pivot fsmashing to bait your fsmash, while punishing your extended hurtbox with a disjointed, lingering move...is very realistic.

Everything else you said is right though, I don't know why DJ is talking about forcing DK into approaching. At all costs Lucario wants DK to approach him, as DK can dominate with his arsenal of oos moves, but aurasphere is not a threatening move when spammed, and will be a rather dumb idea to use it whenever DK is in ftilt range. You can pocket an AS and save it for when you think it's ideal to use, but it definitely isn't going to force DK into the air.

 

[Browny]

why would i ever be in dsmash range? why would i ever be in... anything range? DK can ftilt and shield all he wants, hes not going to have a safe approach vs lucarios fsmash and AS on the ground.

look at it this way. Dk approaches with an ftilt.
lucario fires AS, dk cancels it. Both characters are where they were before, lucario rolls away to repeat. of course lucario could always have a full charge AS at every time which doesnt get cancelled
lucario fsmashes, dk gets hit. repeat the camping

dk approaches with an fsmash... lolwtf

DK shields an AS/fsmash. lucario rolls away since his smashes / AS are practically unpunishable on block to anything that isnt wolfs fsmash. Fsmash lingers effects will also catch out roll/spot dodging and no one has a roll dodge > lucarios fsmash range except lucario himself. repeat the camping

looks to me that DK's only safe approach on the ground is if he is well within lucarios fsmash range and rolls behind him. Any decent lucario player should not be using AS/fsmash if DK is within this range.

eh dont get me wrong i know DK has a lot of options and i think this matchup is pretty even but if lucario chooses to sacrifice KO power by spamming FCAS and fsmash the whole match it can become pretty difficult for DK to get around

 

[Donkey Bong]

why would i ever be in dsmash range? why would i ever be in... anything range? DK can ftilt and shield all he wants, hes not going to have a safe approach vs lucarios fsmash and AS on the ground.

look at it this way. Dk approaches with an ftilt.
lucario fires AS, dk cancels it. Both characters are where they were before, lucario rolls away to repeat. of course lucario could always have a full charge AS at every time which doesnt get cancelled
lucario fsmashes, dk gets hit. repeat the camping

this would work... on a lvl 1 computer maybe.
do you really think DK is just going to let you roll away safely? he has good running speed, so its easy to chase with a dash to an immediate down b, and that puts lucario straight up in the air, just begging to be abused.

 

[Zujira]

t and that puts lucario straight up in the air, just begging to be abused.

I lol'd.

10chars

 

[itsthebigfoot]

I lol'd.

10chars

you do realize our usmash beats your dair, so up in the air is not really safe for you right?

also, priority is damage based, so depending on lucarios % we may out prioritize or clank

if its uncharged, ours will do 20%, full charged it will do 29%, not sure on your fsmash numbers, but if it ever does below 10% it gets beat, if it does 14% it could practically get beat, since a slight charge would do it, and i don't think anyone would try to beat out a fully charged dk fsmash, so i won't even mention that

also, dj, your fully charged ball does clank with our ftilt until like the 90+ish range. and rolling back does not give you a good camp game, there is a limited stage, and if you're camping you're probably already near the ledge, rolling back will just let us eat your rolls

 

[Timbers]

look at it this way. Dk approaches with an ftilt.
lucario fires AS, dk cancels it. Both characters are where they were before, lucario rolls away to repeat. of course lucario could always have a full charge AS at every time which doesnt get cancelled

DK completely outprioritizes it, so it's not a good idea to every aurasphere when he's in ftilt range, which has an obscenely long range on it. You can't continue to camp DK, you just have to play defense until you make an opening and then take it.

also, priority is damage based, so depending on lucarios % we may out prioritize or clank

if its uncharged, ours will do 20%, full charged it will do 29%, not sure on your fsmash numbers, but if it ever does below 10% it gets beat, if it does 14% it could practically get beat, since a slight charge would do it, and i don't think anyone would try to beat out a fully charged dk fsmash, so i won't even mention that

also, dj, your fully charged ball does clank with our ftilt until like the 90+ish range. and rolling back does not give you a good camp game, there is a limited stage, and if you're camping you're probably already near the ledge, rolling back will just let us eat your rolls

Full DK fsmash is 28%.

Uncharged 0% Luc fsmash is 11%. 100% is 17%.
Fullcharge 0% Lucario fsmash is 15%. 100% is 24%

iirc auraspheres will clank with DK's bair until we reach 115%. Don't know the priority of bair in contrast to DK's ftilt though.

And rolling into the ledge is a terrible idea, that's where DK wants you DJ. His ledge pressure is top notch.


Because it sounds like I'm only belittling Luc, I'll add on to this.

While DK does have a good deal going for him in this match, Luc has a great arsenal going for him as well.

Once inside, you'll be having trouble getting Luc off of you. Everything he has lingers, which makes it hard for such a big target like DK to escape pressure, and with the longrange of most of Luc's attacks, he can continue his pummel at fairly safe distances.

Aurasphere does a wonderful job at edgeguarding DK's uB, as well as fsmash and bair.

In contrast to Lucario dying before DK loses his stock, DK losing his stock before Luc loses his is also pretty **** bad for DK. You've left a high percentage Lucario on the stage, with his auraspheres racking much more priority than usual. Simply swatting them away can become difficult when you're semi-desperate for that kill on Lucario, as he can take you from 0 to 80 in just several moves. Luc can keep you hardpressed, it's really dependent on who takes who's first stock. Both characters can abuse it all too well.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ftilt does 12% when used properly (angle it up, it stops approaches and does 2% more)

edit: when dk dies first we go straight for a bair off the edge or a bthrow to set up a edge guard.

one thing i noticed against luc, its really easy for dk to pick up momentum, easy to lose it too, but its two completely momentum based characters, so the first person to control spacing will have a very large lead.

 

[Tujex]

Played a couple lUc's yesterday and i have to say it's a very even match-up in most cases.

They have range, something I severely underestimated since most characters who lack weapons (unless you look at Aura as a weapon) have range that competes with DK's. His combo game is AMAZING. With DK being so frekkin' heavy, he pretty much falls in place for a follow-up hit...allowing this combo driven madman to run long and heavy combos on you. I was even 0-death'd by one because I slipped up and let him get his momentum going again....which just goes to show that this match isn't going to be based on numbers. This match-up seems like whoever is the most cautious and careful will pull it out, since ONE slip-up can result in the death of either.

I'd give this match a 50-50 chance since it can easily teeter either way if the player is even the slightest bit careless.

 

[Timbers]

So tujex pretty much summed up everything I would have said.

 

[Four Leaf]

I play this match up all day long against one of the best lucarios in PA, my brother. I have had over 20 hours at least playing this match up and it's definitely 50/50. Some matches I'll destroy the **** out of him, and others he just ***** me. A lot of what tujex said is completely correct. A smart lucario will take opportunities and will punish a **** up. Lucario has many tricks as well as an insane range. I'd even go as far to say that this match is in lucario's favor if you don't have the match experience. Lucario is odd to fight because in the beginning he'll actually fight you, and then when he hits around 60% you're fighting a ROB as far as how much they'll camp. As soon as they hit around that 60%, they're looking for any free dmg they can get, while trying to space you all day. DK can actually get in there, while F-tilting, but I can P-shield the AS about 80% of the time, leading to a lucario that's not running away. Both chars can punish, and both also have to watch their own ***. All in all I'd say that this match is a 50/50. Don't be arrogant. A smart Lucario will **** your face inside and out. Don't think all this char does is camp. Lucario can punish dk more than you'd think. If you don't have the experience, I'd say this matchup is about 40/60. You'd be surprised how odd a serious lucario can be if you're not knowing what to expect.

 

[CBK]

I totally agree this is not in LUc's favor nor in Dk's well for the most part, I'd give it 55 45, just for the single reason Dk isn't afraid of lingering hitboxes a lot of the times. Inside pressure with Lucario I usually deal with up b since it's really easy to time armor frames while he's hitting and get a good 13 percent off. I believe good Lucario's will take slight damage and wait till the y can start killing to really do damage. Once they do amazing damage then it gets scary to fight like I said. 5:5 sounds like a good decision on where they stand.

 

[darkspatan117]

DK vs the 7 matchup discuss if you disagree

MK is bad for DK
Snake is more or less even I would give it to Snake maybe
DDD I think you know who have the advantage....
G&W I call it even maybe it not
Marth is even or slight for DK advantage
Falco is a bad matchup because of the laser and cg
R.O.B I'm pretty sure it's even

 

[itsthebigfoot]

DK vs the 7 matchup discuss if you disagree

MK is bad for DK
Snake is more or less even I would give it to Snake maybe
DDD I think you know who have the advantage....
G&W I call it even maybe it not
Marth is even or slight for DK advantage
Falco is a bad matchup because of the laser and cg
R.O.B I'm pretty sure it's even

way to be on topic.


anyway, these are two VERY momentum based characters, so as several people have pointed out, there will be spans of time where one side gets dominated, however, if the players are as good as each other, it will even out.

i think dk might be at a very slight advantage because he can get in easier and if he gets luc towards the edge, there is a high possibly you can get an early kill.

 

[Cyphus]

"one of the best lucario's in Pa" isn't anything to brag about.

i play Lee (MK who got 3rd at hobo to m2king and azen) he mains MK/Lucario, and recently lost to him in the grand finals of a tournament, DK vs Lucario.

The matchup is fair, maybe 55 or 60 in lucario's favor cuz of the 50+% combos from forward B at low damage. Granted its situational because DK has to be at low damage and lucario at low damage as well (so his forward B isn't 'too strong' to chain, when it does happen it does break a strong advantage from any tie).
DK giant punch is very effective at challenging lucario's f.smash and although his d.tilt/downB is 'useful' its pales in comparison's to lucario's godly f.smash which keeps DK from playing at his range often.
If DK is above lucario, his uptilt, upair, mindgame-charged upsmash all work wonders at keeping DK guessing.
If lucario is above DK, he just needs to D.air, lol.

Lucario's projectile is extremely brutal vs DK while he recovers because if he airdodges through it he's usually dead because of his UpB's height.

Lucario can f.air-f.air/d.air combo DK pretty badly and bully him off edges easily. DK is just simply heavier and occasoinally strong enough to kill lucario' before he gets too poweful from damage, especially with b.airs, and d.smashes after forcing him ontop the stage from edgehogging.

DK feels like he has to make 'less mistakes' than lucario, while using alot more moves, defensively lucario can get away with alot just f.smashing and shadowballing at the same range DK would like to get away with downB.lucario can edgeguard DK better than most with shadowball and d.air, but DK can also edgeguard lucario slightly better than most due to his b.air.
60/40 lucario's favor for most levels. its even on battlefield.

 

[Mr.Victory07]

50-50 or 55-45 Luc's adv., this matchup is very even, although Luc's range at higher %s can be a bother, and Aura Sphere can be a bother while recovering ands Luc's chaingrab can get some hefty % on you. Still really even

 

[itsthebigfoot]

the cg can be wiggled out of for a while, so its really more like 20+ to whenever. making it a lot more situational especially because by the time you get dk into the range needed you might have taken a few hits yourself.

 

[CBK]

yeah for real the chain grab can either be jumped out of or you can up b at about 15. Oh and we have been discussing all matchups read past pages man to keep up.

 

[Cyphus]

unless i'm incredibly mistaken, if the lucario player forwards B DK, when they're both at very low percents...and performs the chainthrow perfectly..dk IS screwd until 50ish% which sets up for an aerial.

 

[CBK]

Well then I guess I better get to testing otherwise I'm going to look like an ***, I'll test and report back to make sure, Luc's damage might change how the hit hits lets see then.