Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[itsthebigfoot]

first reply gets to call the matchup, choices are falco, lucario, wario, zamus, peach, ice climbers

 

[A2ZOMG]

the only weakness DK has besides being able to be infinited is his recovery which still isn't that bad. If DK wasn't able to be infinted he would take G&W's place on the tier list

I don't think that's the real reason why he's lower. DDD would still have the advantage on DK with a normal chaingrab, but G&W CLEARLY has the advantage on DDD.

G&W also does a lot better vs ROB and Falco than DK, which can't be ignored either. In fact, I highly doubt any of DK's matchups vs the Sacred Seven are actually in his favor. Some of them like Marth might be close to even, but not any higher.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

you don't know that man, without the infinite dk vs dedede is even, and falco vs dk has been even from my experience.

also, game and watch gets wrecked by meta, at least dk its around neutral

BTW, you mentioned falco, so we'll discuss falco

ok, basics on the match, if you get grabbed, keep your second jump, you can recover, theres nothing he can do about it since he can't spike you out of upb (it spikes on the first few frames, so when he's close enough to land it, he gets hit by upb and eats like 20 damage)

all falco can do is laser camp you after that, you out range him, you outprioritize him, you can gimp him, he can't gimp you, you out live him, and you overpower him.

however, he starts with you at 50%, and the lasers are a royal pain.

gimping him is not too hard, stick a dair in front of his sideb and he's done. go for kill moves early, like around 60-80, he dies surprisingly quick

I think its about even, only really bad on hdtvs (before you even mention that match jmex, that was a high def tv and i played the only match of the tournament on it, after that you deemed it unplayable due to lag)

 

[A2ZOMG]

DK vs DDD is still in DDD's favor because he is WAY BETTER at racking on damage and getting around stale moves. He can camp. His shieldgrab is very annoying for DK because of the range, and because DK does not have amazing priority on attacks. By the same token, DDD is also able to intercept DK's nondisjointed approaches with disjointed attacks. Then there's other things like DDD's better edgeguarding too which speaks for itself really.

Really, being CGed reliably is almost as bad as being infinited, especially since getting grabbed by DDD is not very hard at all, and one round of being CGed usually means you take at least 30some% and end up in a disadvantaged position that sets you up for more punishment.

G&W has advantage on Falco. I highly doubt DK has it even due to laser camping and CG, but whatever.

G&W doesn't lose any more than 6/4 to MK since he has reliable ways to camp vs MK, and DK definitely doesn't go neutral to MK either mainly because his shield sucks. He goes neutral to Marth.

As for Falco, DK can't B-air approach reliably due to laser camping. The one thing I'm not sure is if Falco can spike DK reliably since I don't know what frames DK's Up-B activates SA. Falco is not particularly easy to edgeguard unless he's Up-Bing.

6/4 Falco IMO

 

[itsthebigfoot]

a2, do you even play dk? i say this because you only argue against dks, and you say stuff thats really wrong. you also seem more interested in off topic discussion than on topic. i could point out that your arguments are wrong, but i'm trying to keep it on topic

falco cannot spike dk at all, let alone reliably, he would get hit before his dair even connects if the dk is upbing.

now, falco can land dairs, just not the part of the dair that spikes, and even then its hard for him to land it, and the risk outweighs the reward. most falcos i've played have given up on the spike after 2 -3 attempts, he cannot spike you out of upb.

EDIT: yes, falco is easy to edgeguard, just put a bair or dair between him and the stage, it eats the sideb, i've already said this, read first plz

 

[RyN]

You definitely want to use down b when available and be aggressive. Never give him a free moment. Any tilt is a legit move.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It doesn't take someone who mains a character to have a good knowledge of the Brawl physics engine and how the game progresses. Emblem Lord does this reliably, and it's highly unlikely he uses every character on a consistent basis.

I argue against DK largely because I feel the DK boards are a little too optimistic about matchups. Not just that, a number of the matchups you have are GROSSLY out of proportion.

I've argued for DK in fact in the past. He shouldn't be losing to Fox for example.

I don't doubt a B-air or D-air beats Falco's SideB, but timing that is another issue because it does not have a lingering hitbox. Falco also has a lot more margin for error than you might expect from his SideB.

 

[Donkey Bong]

yeah, also when possible chase falco off the stage with your bair because his recovery is fairly gimpable
the only thing you should watch out for is his CG so for your first 50% of damage or so, keep your distance using your up b and down b for approaches
if he chases you into the air vertically time your dair well because of its starting/ending lag

 

[CBK]

Even at top play with Falco it's still a 6:4 Easy fight for Falco, because thought he can't always kill you under 42 DK is mostly stuck camping or trying to so he doesn't get lazer spammed. When I play SK92 it's like one of the hardest matches I've ever played I mean okay DDD is super gay but when you have a chance to win it's extremely hard, and i'ts not because of the chain throw more the auto cancelled lazer to grab, or smash that lazer stuns you just a fram or three before hand.

 

[Donkey Bong]

thats why you either hit him during the activation frames of side b, or calculate where he'll land , roll over there and fsmash him.

 

[i1337]

Play a good dk and youll see what i mean and dont let me spike you out of side b or its over.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Play a good dk and youll see what i mean and dont let me spike you out of side b or its over.

 

[A2ZOMG]

thats why you either hit him during the activation frames of side b, or calculate where he'll land , roll over there and fsmash him.

Falco is invincible sometime during the activation of his SideB. His SideB also starts up very fast and has low landing lag. Almost everything you do to punish him must be set up BEFORE he makes his move, meaning he is the one that actually gets to react to what is happening.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Falco is invincible sometime during the activation of his SideB. His SideB also starts up very fast and has low landing lag. Almost everything you do to punish him must be set up BEFORE he makes his move, meaning he is the one that actually gets to react to what is happening.

Shut the **** up. I think this entire board will agree that the majority of the things you say are ridiculous. I play a Falco fairly often and punish his side b and gimp him all the time. Timing is all you need. Bair, Dair, Fair, Nair, Donkey Punch, Tilts, Smashes, and anything else I'm forgetting are all >>>>>>>>>>> Falco's side b.

 

[A2ZOMG]

N-air is probably good against the SideB, but the other options? Bleh.

F-air and D-air start up and end slowly. That's a lot of time for Falco to decide when he will SideB. Tilts only work ON stage. DK Punch works both on and off stage, but does not have a particularly huge lingering hitbox, so it's not all that reliable. Smashes again only work on stage.

 

[ftl]

I'm a Falco main, and I just saw this discussion, felt like contributing... here's what I think it's like.

If the falco is smart, he'll keep his second jump for as long as he can. Then he has the option to wait for DK to do something and then react to it (with the illusion, combined with the option to jump/airdodge), giving him the chance to get around an edgeguard. If he has that, it's a prediction/reaction game. I think Falco DOES have the ability to react to DK and get around a gimp, DK doesn't have the off-stage versatility or mobility of a MK or DDD, but it's still a very high-risk situation for Falco - if the DK predicts him properly, he can be spiked. I think Falco DOES have the tools to get through this if he does it right and saves his second jump, and doesn't let the DK predict what he's going to do. (It's still hard for him, and DK should be able to get gimps occasionally because nobody plays perfectly, but I think it's avoidable.)

If the falco does NOT have a second jump left, then all he's left with is picking when to illusion - to get onto the stage, or to go for the edge. DK can wait on the stage ready to shield/punish an illusion onto the stage, or jump off and aerial/edgehog the falco, who really doesn't have many options here. In this case, I think DK should be able to either get the gimp or land a hit (probably even a smash) on a Falco that's illusioned onto the stage. If Falco doesn't have a jump left and is forced to illusion onto the stage, I'm pretty sure DK can force a stock loss there if he plays it right.

(If the falco screws up and has to use his firebird because he's below the level, well, good luck to him. That can either be edgehogged or just spiked out of, it's slow and predictable.)

Oh, and one more trick that Falco has that could save his butt sometimes - shortened illusions. There are very few falcos that do this often, but he does have the option to shorten his illusion - it can let him grab the edge instead of going onto the stage sometimes. I haven't seen many falcos do this, though, and it doesn't help if he's not already close enough to the stage to have that option (in which case DK should just bair him already...)

So yeah, overall, I'd expect a good DK to get edgeguard kills on a falco, but the Falco should also be getting back part of time, it's not a guaranteed kill. Definitely something in DK's favor, but not good enough to say "offstage falco = death".

Also, I'm pretty sure Falco is NOT invincible at any time during his illusion. I WISH he were, but as far as I know he isn't, and I've been playing Falco and watching the Falco boards for a while.

 

[Jingo_Joe]

I've played many Falco's, and from what I can tell, Falco cannot chaingrab to spike for a kill on Donkey Kong. At the very least, he cannot do it as easily as some people first assume.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEOKjxKpOmc

At around 0:25, Falco attempts to chain grab me off the stage. He then spikes me at 46%, which is supposed to be about when DK can break out of the chain grab. After I am spiked I can almost immediately jump to cancel the meteor and then recover safely to the ledge. To stop me, the Falco would have had to precisely time his edge-guard, and even then, I believe I can calncel the meteor even sooner than I did in the video. Soon enough to land on the ledge for safety.

I do this everytime a Falco spikes me, the timing is not that difficult to learn. I don't know if people already know about this, but last I checked (which was a while ago) there were many DK's who were frustrated by getting chained-to-spike by Falcos. If you save your jump instead of trying to break out the grab you can use it to cancel the meteor, and at that point you'll only be at around 60%. This is fairly decent considering you can kill a Falco with a 9 Punch easily at around 55%.

When you think about it, getting camped and spammed by a Falco is balanced by the fact that you can kill him at very low percentages. What is 55%? 55% is around 5 F-tilts, 3 Bairs and 3 D-Tilts, a Down-B and 4 Bairs, etc. It doesn't take much to get someone to 55%. If you can get a Falco to around that percentage and find a way to pull off a 9-Punch, you've evened the odds significatly.

===Going Off-Topic===

I hear many Donkey Kongs completely forgo the 9-Punch saying the lack of Super Armor isn't worth it. The answer to this dilemma (9-Punch without Super Armor or 10 Punch without killing potential) is simple to me: use both. At the start of the match, I always charge a 9 Punch, If my opponent gets to the 68-72% range before I find a chance to use a 9-Punch, then I just charge the last part for a 10-Punch. In the end, no harm is done, and you are given an opportunity for a low percentage kill.

===Back On-Topic===

Of course, Falco still clearly has the advantage against DK. Lasers are hard to break through, and when you finally do, it isn't hard for a Falco to get away again to rinse and repeat. Falco is most likely DK's second hardest fight.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What matchup values do you give DK vs Falco? I think it's 6/4 Falco honestly, and I agree mainly it's because DK doesn't have very good approaches on Falco.

Falco's disadvantages are being SUPER lightweight, and limited recovery options in some situations. His KO power is low but isn't a problem when he has lasers.

 

[Donkey Bong]

just the fact that DK can kill falco at such extremely low damages make it at least an even matchup IMO despite being outcamped

 

[A2ZOMG]

You're only going to kill him at extremely low percents if you land a 9 Punch, a U-smash, or an F-smash, and keep in mind that he can punish all of those with a DACUS. Falco also has the lead in terms of dealing damage partly due to the CG, and because of laser camping, which means Falco himself doesn't actually have trouble scoring KOs since he can keep his kill moves unstaled pretty easily.

 

[Ripple]

this match up is not even, get over it. Falco has an advantage end of discussion about that. get to discussing what we can try to do to beat laser and CG and his rediculous defense and GTFO moves linke shine

 

[A2ZOMG]

The good news against Falco's CG is that his grab range is terrible. The problem is playing spacing games against him can be risky since it encourages him to camp.

As for lasers, don't play him on FD, Smashville, or Jungle Japes. Lylat is probably one of the better stages you can use to get around lasers. I dunno how Falco does on Luigi's Mansion or Castle Seige, but they do have obstacles that can block laser camping.

And get really good at both dodging and powershielding them. This is for closing distance between him. This won't however stop him from camping when you whiff an attack.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Down b > Reflector, in terms of range. It also discourages grabs.

Jingo that was a nice match. I liked the up b stage spike, I do that a lot.

 

[CBK]

Okay first of all never ever play them on Jungle japes chain grab spike guarantee's death on that stage it's very hard. And if you think that shine thing is hard to deal with your not very good you can **** him if he uses that there is so much lag after it's extended you get free whatever you want. 6:4 Falco because of double cancell lazer, not chain grab, Dk can survive chain grab and if he didn't have lazers it would be easy but it's much harder because of them.

 

[CBK]

He doesn't die easy and if your serious about gettng a smash off when ever you want your wrong lazer stun prevents big hits exept SA punch. Best chance you have is low throw of stage and hope you throw them low enough to edge hog. And seriously Rag...have you played any Pro level Falcos what your explaining is total BS. You would have to predict where he is going to punish and most falco's never let you get close enough to touch them unless they are going to kill you. He's not light so he won't die from a down smash under 110 with good D.I.

 

[Ragnar0k]

What I'm saying is that if you predict his side b then you'll basically get a free hit in.

 

[CBK]

Okay the only problem is why would they forward B on stage unless you were on the ledge. It's very hard to punish, the best punish move is ledge hop stomp and that predicting they would f b, the move stays out long enough that if they wait for the ledge it will spike them. And staying on the ledge can get you spiked at low percentages if your not smart about it.

6:4 Falco in this matchup a rather much harder match for DK.

 

[Ragnar0k]

If you jump out to them it pressures them into doing something, or eating a bair.

 

[sui-jin]

Going off stage against falco can cause you to be spiked by his side-b. You can hit him out of it with b-air but it would most likely be better to just try to edge hog him.

Falco has poor recovery, hitting him with b-air off stage will most likely kill him. But it should only be done when you know that you wont lose a stock or stage control because of his side-b. pyon!

 

[Donkey Bong]

He doesn't die easy and if your serious about gettng a smash off when ever you want your wrong lazer stun prevents big hits exept SA punch. Best chance you have is low throw of stage and hope you throw them low enough to edge hog. And seriously Rag...have you played any Pro level Falcos what your explaining is total BS. You would have to predict where he is going to punish and most falco's never let you get close enough to touch them unless they are going to kill you. He's not light so he won't die from a down smash under 110 with good D.I.

no smart falco would use lasers right next to you

 

[CBK]

Are you serious your kidding right have you never seen SK92 approach with double lazer right next to you. See the thing is most of you don't understand Falco can double lazer one high one low, not ulike Melee. But they are auto cancelled and Falco can do anything after the lazer comes out. Falco's, pro level falcos are good about high lazer to keep you from jumping and low lazer as they hit the ground forcing you to power shield the hit and then punish or block and get grabed. They can even if the lazer hits your shield wear your shield with the dash cancel upsmash in which you can't grab them after they hit because of the knockback in the move.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Going off stage against falco can cause you to be spiked by his side-b. You can hit him out of it with b-air but it would most likely be better to just try to edge hog him.

Falco has poor recovery, hitting him with b-air off stage will most likely kill him. But it should only be done when you know that you wont lose a stock or stage control because of his side-b. pyon!

Falco's side b spike is weak. I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure I've survived it around 150 with my double jump and up b. It's not really that much to worry about.

 

[CBK]

Okay your right but on the other hand the spike lets them run to the edge and edgehog you, besides that puts you not in control of the stage which is what DK needs to win.

 

[Ragnar0k]

Yeah but you'll only get spiked if you don't attack. Most of DK's aerials win against falco's side b.

 

[Deoxys]

Why are you waiting to do MK? He's one of the most popular and DK is considered to be one of his worst matchups.

 

[Donkey Bong]

Are you serious your kidding right have you never seen SK92 approach with double lazer right next to you. See the thing is most of you don't understand Falco can double lazer one high one low, not ulike Melee. But they are auto cancelled and Falco can do anything after the lazer comes out. Falco's, pro level falcos are good about high lazer to keep you from jumping and low lazer as they hit the ground forcing you to power shield the hit and then punish or block and get grabed. They can even if the lazer hits your shield wear your shield with the dash cancel upsmash in which you can't grab them after they hit because of the knockback in the move.

i havent seen that, are there any videos?

 

[J4pu]

Against Falco what you want to do is maintain stage control, I played bigfoot and after losing the first match to what I thought was gunna be an extremely easy match-up i had to start playing smart.
JJapes will **** you as bigfoot probably remembers, the edges are made for phantasm spam and movement, the raised platforms allow both SHDL lasers to hit DK standing easily making it impossible for you to move forward basically, Bigfoot resorted to using upB to go under the middle platform so lasers wouldnt bother him, a really risky move with the klap-trap swimming around. The CG to spike is recoverable on JJapes however it requires you to have the consistent ability to jump out of the water when falling into the area btwn mid and left platform which takes some timing. Of course if the falco pauses his CG with grab attacks to wait for the Dair spike into the Klap-trap then you are in trouble.
Falco's biggest weakness is his recovery, he is one of the easier chars to gimp, however if you relinquish holding your position on the stage to try and get the gimp kill you lose stage control if he makes it back, so it's more of a personal preference risk/reward thing.

I'm gunna say 6:4 in Falco's favor is accurate
bigfoot it the only good/decent (i dont know how you guys rank him) DK i have ever played and I thought he was actually a bit better than me but I ended up winning the set, probably due to the advantage Falco has imo.

 

[CBK]

He wasn't using the stage right because if your going to camp just do damage to Falco and duck in the middle platform, plus bet fast kills yourself by using the clap trap low toss *chomp*

 

[J4pu]

I'm telling you guys, JJapes was made for Falco (other than the high ceiling), you may like the stage in a lot of match-ups but I don't advise using it against a Falco, once Falco gets that middle platform you are in trouble whereas is DK has the middle platform he has the advantage but Falco isn't really forced to approach so it's just kind of a standoffif you think holding the middle platform will be easy you are wrong there too, Falco can phantasm across freely without fear of punishment due to the waiting edge on the other side, yes you can use the klap trap almost as well as Falco but I have never seen anybody actually plan a klap trap kill, they may have gone for one and gotten lucky because it happened to come by, but I can't think of any video of any character consciously stalling a grab until the klap trap is in sight and then using it.

IMO DK's only advantage here against Falco is his ability to kill off the sides whereas falco likes to Upsmash for kills but the ceiling is really high.

 

[CBK]

That stage can go either way seriously it's just who is playing and how they are playing that makes the difference. I can easily out camp a falco on that stage because the stage in the middle is really made for DK to duck lazers and phantasms until he is approached. Too easy that way just make sure you have more damage on falco up until that point.