Matchup Thread: WHAT TIME IS IT?

[Timbers]

What's with this common misconception of Luc's hitboxes increasing as he gains percentages? Aurasphere is the only thing to grow. Luc does not gain additional range on any other move.

 

[Luigi player]

If it's 50:50 I don't know how much worse players than me actually give me a so ****ing hard time with Lucario then.

I can beat them MUCH more easily with other characters. (Diddy for example)

And you can't just say my DK sucks, because I beat some of the best EU players with DK >_>
And I can also **** like any other character from them (of those Lucario players). Just Lucario gives me trouble...

 

[Timbers]

You probably don't know how to deal with Lucario as DK. I'm going to go out on a limb that they're very ground oriented (possibly roll a lot) and you don't know how to punish it as DK.

Diddy completely dominates the stage with nanas, and can pressure players much more easily than DK.

 

[Luigi player]

Well it's just that I can't kill Lucario and he lives to 150+ % sometimes, because they become so ****ing evasive with high %.

And then Lucario is really strong. I also can't really hit Lucario, because of his aura. I always get hit though, because my hurtbox extends with my attacks. But his aura just blocks them and hits me.

DK can't do **** against Lucario in the air. Lucarios dair > DKs uair. Lucarios bair/fair > DKs fair/bair. DKs dair is way too slow anyway, and DKs nair is not disjointed enough to do anything.

DKs only way to kill Lucario is by smashes (unless he's above 180 or something... but it depends on how stale the moves are).

But those smashes are too slow to hit Lucario. His roll is also way too good to punish or do anything about it.

Please don't say down B is good against it because if I use downB I always get hit out of it because it's way too slow and also has enough ending lag for the Lucario to punish.

DKs tilts are also really hard to hit with. And you can't spam them like against other characters, because Lucarios attacks hit through them...



I'm not whining about it or something. But this 50:50 is not understandable for me.
If I (who plays almost all of the time and is probably the best player in germany/austria; I also won some tournaments) have a really hard time against some "not so good" players. Or just players who only play once a week or something.... and players I can beat with MANY other characters (NOT just Diddy, he was just an example). If they play a other character they also can't do anything and get *****.

That just doesn't make sense to me. I even think sometimes that Lucario is maybe even harder than Dedede for DK...

 

[Nokonoko]

The thing is, you should definitely do your utmost to prevent Lucario from surviving to 150, even if the player’s being as evasive as **** … and DK’s tilts can be used just fine at close quarters.

With dB, are you sure you aren’t mashing it inadvertently, making it go on for more than the minimum? It’s a staple of DK’s game when it comes to punishing rolls, but you have to be quick about it. : /

The DDD matchup is absolutely impossible at this stage — but Lucario can be beat. Do you have any videos of your matches? They might help you to see where you’re messing up.

 

[Timbers]

Well it's just that I can't kill Lucario and he lives to 150+ % sometimes, because they become so ****ing evasive with high %.

And then Lucario is really strong. I also can't really hit Lucario, because of his aura. I always get hit though, because my hurtbox extends with my attacks. But his aura just blocks them and hits me.

DK can't do **** against Lucario in the air. Lucarios dair > DKs uair. Lucarios bair/fair > DKs fair/bair. DKs dair is way too slow anyway, and DKs nair is not disjointed enough to do anything.

DKs only way to kill Lucario is by smashes (unless he's above 180 or something... but it depends on how stale the moves are).

But those smashes are too slow to hit Lucario. His roll is also way too good to punish or do anything about it.

Please don't say down B is good against it because if I use downB I always get hit out of it because it's way too slow and also has enough ending lag for the Lucario to punish.

DKs tilts are also really hard to hit with. And you can't spam them like against other characters, because Lucarios attacks hit through them...



I'm not whining about it or something. But this 50:50 is not understandable for me.
If I (who plays almost all of the time and is probably the best player in germany/austria; I also won some tournaments) have a really hard time against some "not so good" players. Or just players who only play once a week or something.... and players I can beat with MANY other characters (NOT just Diddy, he was just an example). If they play a other character they also can't do anything and get *****.

That just doesn't make sense to me. I even think sometimes that Lucario is maybe even harder than Dedede for DK...

Few things.

1) Experiment more with Giant Punch. The SA frames on it can completely trash Lucario's relatively slow startup lag on a lot of his moves, and it kills really early when sweetspotted.

2) DK's bair outranges everything Lucario has except Fsmash. It's not that slow either...has to be maybe a frame or 2 slower than Luc's fair? Which isn't that bad given it's obscene range.

3) Luc just should not live until 150 on a consistant basis against DK lol. It's really hard to say what you're doing wrong without videos but there definitely is something wrong with that if you're not killing that early. Dsmash OOS can wreck like any of Luc's shielded moves excluding fsmash and retreating fair.

4) Play patiently. Watch how your opponent reacts. DK's tilts can limit Lucario's approach options a lot.

 

[Browny]

maybe i can convince my brother to let me upload some of our lucario v dk matches. we are very close skill-wise and know the matchups pretty well, what works what doesnt etc should be good...

 

[itsthebigfoot]

dks bair is around 7 frames (kinda, haven't gotten frame testing down, so its around that area)

also, cyphus, you can wiggle out of the sideb until about 20%, try it out, as i said before, you won't escape the first one, but by the second one you should be wiggling fast enough

 

[Timbers]

Luc's fair is 7 as well.

DK's doesn't look as fast as that but its up to you guys to decide.

 

[Luigi player]

I think DKs bair hitbox comes out at frame 8.

Few things.

1) Experiment more with Giant Punch. The SA frames on it can completely trash Lucario's relatively slow startup lag on a lot of his moves, and it kills really early when sweetspotted.

2) DK's bair outranges everything Lucario has except Fsmash. It's not that slow either...has to be maybe a frame or 2 slower than Luc's fair? Which isn't that bad given it's obscene range.

3) Luc just should not live until 150 on a consistant basis against DK lol. It's really hard to say what you're doing wrong without videos but there definitely is something wrong with that if you're not killing that early. Dsmash OOS can wreck like any of Luc's shielded moves excluding fsmash and retreating fair.

4) Play patiently. Watch how your opponent reacts. DK's tilts can limit Lucario's approach options a lot.

1. Yeah I know, but the Lucario could only run away and spam aura sphere and block everything because he's expecting the giant punch.

2. Does it really outrange everything? =/ Well it looks like it can, but you'd still trade hits with his fair/whatever.

3. Yeah well the final hit is always really hard to get. Somehow they can always escape my smashes =P Well it's just sometimes. Rarely I can kill Lucario at ~90 % too...

4. I can't because of aura sphere and Lucarios range and power.


Well I'm probably overreacting here, but it's still really hard to beat Lucarios as DK... which it shouldn't be... if it's really 50:50... I would've said like 35:65 in Lucarios favour. I'm serious.

 

[Timbers]

I think DKs bair hitbox comes out at frame 8.



1. Yeah I know, but the Lucario could only run away and spam aura sphere and block everything because he's expecting the giant punch.

2. Does it really outrange everything? =/ Well it looks like it can, but you'd still trade hits with his fair/whatever.

3. Yeah well the final hit is always really hard to get. Somehow they can always escape my smashes =P Well it's just sometimes. Rarely I can kill Lucario at ~90 % too...

4. I can't because of aura sphere and Lucarios range and power.


Well I'm probably overreacting here, but it's still really hard to beat Lucarios as DK... which it shouldn't be... if it's really 50:50... I would've said like 35:65 in Lucarios favour. I'm serious.

1. Don't shut down all of your options just to giant punch, just implement it more.

2. Yeah.

3. Like everything DK has can kill Lucario before 120. You do have to play patiently. Read Lucario. We're not as evasive as you think, really, lol.

4. Don't rush into things. Luc can take you from 0-80 if you're being hasty. Look for openings. If what Luc's doing isn't working, he'll likely switch it up. Find patterns. This is true for all characters and their players, but I'm just trying to make a point that you're not forced into anything.

 

[Luigi player]

Yeah maybe I should play move defensively. I'm offensiv most of the time, that's my playstale... (I'm getting more defensive if my % are high tough)

Thanks for trying to help me. I'll have to play a Lucario again and maybe it works...

But I even lost to a Lucario at Brinstar (my auto-win stage). I can beat every single player there. The best players. I never lost... only to a Lucario...

 

[itsthebigfoot]

luigi, i don't really know what to tell you other than space and read the other guy.

use fsmash as a poke every once in a while, and ftilt the aura spheres, lead on like you're aiming for an fsmash kill, then, when he does some sort of move with laggy startup (there are several) use the SA on the punch to land it. really, it shouldn't be as hard as you're making it sound.

 

[Deleted member]

"one of the best lucario's in Pa" isn't anything to brag about

I play this guy and his brother and I also play azen pretty frequently. His lucario is good don't diss him.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

ok, post random tips for the summary, i'll have it up along with falco right before we start next weeks character

 

[deepseadiva]

The Peaches are discussing DK this week!

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=178193&page=64

Well, were discussing DK. It seems we've arrived at Peach's advantage and left it at that.

 

[CBK]

It's a toss up but since we haven't discussed it it's not relevant.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

post away, i'll post everything i found on Wednesday, i wanna see what people think before that

 

[CBK]

Well you know my feeling on that subject, this is definitely is a 5:5 Hard on boths sides, now while MK's will say he's big tornado. Dk has quite a few weapons against this hitbox with a mask.

1. Against Mk's damage rackers such as Tornado, He can actually hit MK out of it with F tilt if they are on ground or slightly above a jumping SA punch hits rather hard. Not saying that it's always unavoidable but he has tools to destroy it.

2. When speaking of his recovery such as using shuttle loop to recover DK totally destroys that with his dair because of the long lingering hitbox that stays on the edge. Now ever since then MK's have used Forward B to recover and it's much harder to gimp him. On stage forward b is relatively easy to punish unlike off stage. So this is a positive point and a negative.

3. MK can't really gimp DK as well as he would like since DK has an amazing verticle attacking recovery. Though Dk can be hit through the up B with Down air if timed perfectly. Otherwise DK gets back onto the stage and has stage control. Plus for DK, since MK's usually like to gimp kill most characters.

4. As far as killing goes I don't need to tell you DK kills Mk's rather fast under 100 while DK if not hit by a fully charged smash or is near the edge when hit will survive easily past 130 to not exaggerate. SO on this note DK doesn't need as much damage on MK to get a kill and Since they use priority to kill with SA punch is god against MK. Okay it's good not God like,

5. And since testing the GSFC against the members of RenoSmash I have found that though hard a DK if practiced and learned well can use this amazingly against MK. The fact that DK can really only punish MK's auto cancelled glide attack with a grab if he does it fast enough and not really a hit makes MK's not afraid of doing that. But since a jump cancell's their dodge before they can get it off it is a great weapon that DK's must master to win this match up. Especially in the near future, when Dk's around the world will need to adapt and use these very advanced techniques to win matches.

6. Dk's an awesome character and he has a few bad match-ups, DDD, but all around he is even with MK in my eyes and I have played the best MK's in California Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Arizona, and though vast tournament matches have come to this conclution.

There you go DK's go wild.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

These are my preliminary thoughts, I've only played a couple decent MKs and these are the results I got:

It's easy for MK to get in your head in this matchup - he's great at comboing, DK gets comboed ridiculously easily. So for a while it will seem like DK is getting destroyed. But any opening he may leave is an opportunity to start racking up his damage, which because of DK's killing power and MK's low weight is dangerous. Dtilt/Ftilt are good at getting him away when you have proper spacing, and pressure with Bairs or Bair --> Ftilt/Headbutt are great ways to keep him on the defensive. Not to mention that DK's staple air move, Bair, and one of his staple ground moves, Ftilt, both beat the Tornado, so no fearless approaching here.


As far as straight kill options go, DK's chock full of them, as we all know. (lol 10rhymes) I haven't tested any of the percentages (If I had my Wii right now I would -_-) but MK's light weight lends itself to some wicked early KO's. Usmash is amazing on levels with platforms; one more reason to CP Brinstar (or Battlefield/Smashville/LC/any other stage with platforms, really). Beware though, if the level doesn't have them Usmash will be very hard to pull off. Fsmash is also pretty good, near the edge it's a good option after a successful Headbutt. Dsmash is the king here, however, because its vertical trajectory and ease to pull off when compared to the other two make it the most dangerous vs MK. Vertical means that MK's recovery is not a factor in deciding whether or not he will die, which will hamper your KO abilities since the standard follow-up gimp/spike offstage is not easily accomplished against MK; more on that later. Uair and Bthrow also appear as seldom-seen KO moves, since to avoid gimping MK's will often recover high, which after a certain percentage leaves them open for a Uair KO near the top of the level. Bthrow is only a killer near the edge, but no one ever expects a standing throw to KO anymore, so use it if the opportunity arises.

The Punch deserves its own section, as it has pros and cons in this matchup that need to be looked at. It's easily DK's best killer at 9 winds, and fully charged the SA does everything from rip through all of MK's approaches (including the Tornado ^ ^) besides grabs to **** that little blue masked ball of gh3y in the FACE. With a FIST. of AWESOME. XD And with the recent discovery of GFSC, successful Headbutts will become much more common and 9-punch suddenly looks very attractive. It comes out fast and kills great. However, in this matchup you will rarely get enough time to charge anything besides at the beginning and after KOs (and perhaps a couple winds when falling high -_-), and the time you do have you would do better to use pressuring him and attempting to get his damage into KO ranges. A smart DK who spaces well and racks up the points when he can will find that Dsmash (and Usmash on platformed levels) will, with a little harder work than usual, often substitute when a KO is needed. Certainly easier than giving up your pressure chances charging a punch and having to wait another 30+% before another pressure chance MIGHT come. Just make sure not to decay it; DKs who use their Dsmash for its speed rather than its power will find their KO options limited.

Spikes will be slightly less useful here - against people who know how to Meteor Cancel (or rather, know that they can) will not die against a spike before high % due to MK's recovery ability. And at that % you might as well Dsmash/Punch for KO. For the same reason, if they also know how to tech against the CSS, the variation where they are thrown under the level probably won't work either. DK will have to rely on the basics, but they work well enough to keep him in the game. MK's speed and combo skills can't be ignored, but eventually DK will find an in, and it'll be even again.

55-45 MK, possibly 50-50 with proper counterpick, meaning levels with platforms to disrupt his air game, and low ceilings and relatively wide sides (Smashville and LC come to mind here) for Uair/Usmash KOs. MK may not be able to be counterpicked, but DK certainly has levels that help him, adjusting the matchup. Conversely, on a level such as Rainbow Cruise, where his aerial mobility far outclasses DK's, the matchup will swing to 60-40.

EDIT: Haha, CBK posted while I was typing, he and I may repeat.
EDIT2: Added kill potential and Punch sections. I know I'm probably gonna get flamed, but hey.

 

[CBK]

NO mention of SA punch,lp Yeah well gread DK's think alike.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

NO mention of SA punch,lp Yeah well gread DK's think alike.

DK punches through EVERYTHING, why should I mention it again? ^ ^

 

[itsthebigfoot]

DK punches through EVERYTHING, why should I mention it again? ^ ^

because its sooo useful in this matchup

 

[CBK]

I believe it's one of the more important weapons in this matchup if you want to win.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I believe it's one of the more important weapons in this matchup if you want to win.

Hmm, we might want to discuss that... Edited for kill moves and Punch.

 

[magikguy]

The Punch is very important . Charging it can be a hassle though

 

[itsthebigfoot]

not really, just run away, wind twice, shield, repeat, works best if you jump, since meta has a slow air speed

 

[Nokonoko]

Bahahah. Most open-shut matchup discussion ever.

MK tends to die outright, so no edgeguarding needed sometimes, anyway …

 

[itsthebigfoot]

wait till Wednesday, i got some stuff that'll make you **** your pants

 

[CBK]

Oh yeah well why wait till Wednesday?

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

Oh yeah well why wait till Wednesday?

10this

*leers at bigfoot*

also some %s would help on those KOs, if no one else does I can have some numbers up tomorrow when I get my Wii back

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Oh yeah well why wait till Wednesday?

cause i gotta test more, but i'll give you a little hint for one of the minor things i found.

you know how you can SDI the fair and punish? well, you left facing towards metaknight.

when your facing toward someone in the air, what 3 options do you have

hint #2 keep your punch stocked at all times

 

[CBK]

Common I invented SA punch...okay I didn't but I know I was the first to use it the way it was supposed to be used. Spam and save.XD

 

[itsthebigfoot]

also, bsticking gfsc is really easy

 

[Nokonoko]

Yah, but then you can’t DI aerials perfectly. Which can be a problem when you want to fastfall ASAP when launched vertically.

Is GFSC really going to get that important?

 

[Donkey Bong]

another thing worth mentioning here is that DK's fsmash will trade hits with metaknights glide attack, which is definitely good for DK, because the glide attack is pretty predictable, its how i won a really close match against a metaknight.

anyone know if the usmash will out prioritize the glide attack?

Is GFSC really going to get that important?

i seriously doubt it
its so hard to pull off and the only really safe way to pull it off is doing it out of a trip, so its highly situational.

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

anyone know if the usmash will out prioritize the glide attack?

It might, but it would be pretty hard to pull it out against the glide since MK can just dip down and aim lower if he sees it coming.

 

[CBK]

Yeah I would actually just charge punch and wait for him to come near, if he comes too close punch will hit if he throws attack or if he doesn't.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

bsticking isn't just for gfsc

 

[CBK]

I don't know B stick...you can't Item slide easily, really good against peach and other item throwers. B stick not for me sorry.;p