Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Zero Suit Samus

[Tien2500]

Ok. Ftilt is slow. I jab you twice and hop away before you do it. And I'm pretty sure powershield to Dtilt or Utilt will pop Zelda up and set up for some punishment. I don't know about the frame data but I think ZSS would have a decent frame advantage.

As for dash to shield. Ok dash to shield and then what? Hope ZSS decides to do something stupid and unsafe to your shield? I'm pretty sure ZSS can just run or roll or whatever away. You can space Fsmash at this distance I guess but even that won't be too effective.

She does exactly the same as against anyone else: gets into a fitting range (this can be anything from long to close range depending on who she's facing), tries to keep that range and waits for an opening. Since she doesn't have any reliable approaches this is the only thing she can do.

Yeah exactly. And its a disadvantage in this match like it is in most of her others. Which is why (at least part of why) this is at least 40:60 ZSS. Thats all I'm saying.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ok. Ftilt is slow. I jab you twice and hop away before you do it. And I'm pretty sure powershield to Dtilt or Utilt will pop Zelda up and set up for some punishment. I don't know about the frame data but I think ZSS would have a decent frame advantage.

As for dash to shield. Ok dash to shield and then what? Hope ZSS decides to do something stupid and unsafe to your shield? I'm pretty sure ZSS can just run or roll or whatever away. You can space Fsmash at this distance I guess but even that won't be too effective.



Yeah exactly. And its a disadvantage in this match like it is in most of her others. Which is why (at least part of why) this is at least 40:60 ZSS. Thats all I'm saying.

I dislike talking to people like you because no matter what we say it's wrong then you will overstate your characters advantages. I also like how ZSS mains constantly complain about their jab but yet you seem to think it would some home be effective.

 

[Tien2500]

Well if what you said isn't wrong than please explain to me how it isn't. If you can defend your point go for it. I'm listening.

And it isn't just me. Pretty much EVERYONE in this thread think that this matchup 40:60. So if anyone is overstating their characters advantages its probably not me.

ZSS' jab is very useful... for interrupting people. It comes out in one frame so its one of the best moves for interrupting other characters in the game. What sucks about it is that it doesn't do much damage and you can't complete it or you risk being punished for it. ZSS's jab is useful. ZSS's jab combo is terrible.

 

[zeldspazz]

I think what hes saying is that your only focusing on ZSS's obvious advantage, but dont really touch on what Zelda can do. When discussing a matchup its best to show both sides of the fight, instead of just talking about one.

 

[Tien2500]

I think what hes saying is that your only focusing on ZSS's obvious advantage, but dont really touch on what Zelda can do. When discussing a matchup its best to show both sides of the fight, instead of just talking about one.

Fair enough but I wasn't trying to discuss the whole matchup. I was just trying to show what advantages ZSS has to make the matchup in the way it is.

In terms of Zelda's advantages she has a better ground game up close and if ZSS messes up her spacing and allows Zelda to get in she can do damage quickly. Dsmash is very fast and knocks back at a low angle, dtilt is a great setup, and Fsmash and Usmash are powerful and Usmash places ZSS in a somewhat vulnerable position. Zelda also has a few moves which while difficult to hit can KO ZSS at incredibly low damage (namely F/Bair and Uair). If ZSS makes a small error in spacing she can easily eat 20 damage or so which is alot for such a light character especially considering Zelda's power.

This is Zelda's main advantage I think. I don't think its enough to counter ZSS' better air game, better recovery,better gimp game, and better approach. So 40:60 seems right.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well if what you said isn't wrong than please explain to me how it isn't. If you can defend your point go for it. I'm listening.

And it isn't just me. Pretty much EVERYONE in this thread think that this matchup 40:60. So if anyone is overstating their characters advantages its probably not me.

ZSS' jab is very useful... for interrupting people. It comes out in one frame so its one of the best moves for interrupting other characters in the game. What sucks about it is that it doesn't do much damage and you can't complete it or you risk being punished for it. ZSS's jab is useful. ZSS's jab combo is terrible.

Very little hit stun can't reliable be canceled 3rd hit can be powereshielded. Also would like to point out that your dtilt hit's on frame fiver the same as our dtilt. Your utilt hit's on from 3 but the cool down lag on that moves makes it's a very dangerous to use. I've also pointed out the flaws in your jab.

I think what hes saying is that your only focusing on ZSS's obvious advantage, but dont really touch on what Zelda can do. When discussing a matchup its best to show both sides of the fight, instead of just talking about one.

It's like he's one of those guys that just hype things. It's rather annoying.

 

[Tien2500]

ZSS dtilt is also longer ranged than Zelda's. And there is no reason to complete the third hit of her jab combo. Like I said it is used to interrupt an attack and get out. The hitstun is enough to avoid punishment. Also the whole combo does hit against an airborne opponent. Utilt is a punishing move so ZSS should only use it when its safe. Otherwise it gets Fsmashed at best and Lightning kicked at worse. I'd again have to ask you what advantages Zelda has that overcome her weaknesses.

And please just stick to the matchup at hand and keep any of your personal feelings about me out of it ^_^. If you have criticism of me please phrase it in a respectful/constructive manner. If you find me annoying then by all means don't continue the conversation. I'll point out again that you are the only person I've seen here who seems to think the match is better than 40:60. I'm not sure how I'm overhyping ZSS when everyone seems to be in agreement. Obviously I know my character's advantages much better than I know Zelda's so if Zelda has an advantage that I'm unaware of then fill me in.

Edit: I could be wrong about this but a thread in the ZSS boards says that Zelda has to Smash DI to get to the ground so she can PS the third jab hit. If so this makes it a bit harder, although still probably not worth the risk in general.

 

[-Mars-]

To be honest Zelda shielding the third hit of your jab combo does what? Lol her grab is frame 12 so she would have to dsmash/usmash/dtilt.............how many frames of cooldown does ZSS have after her third jab before she can jab again?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

ZSS dtilt is also longer ranged than Zelda's. And there is no reason to complete the third hit of her jab combo. Like I said it is used to interrupt an attack and get out. The hitstun is enough to avoid punishment. Also the whole combo does hit against an airborne opponent. Utilt is a punishing move so ZSS should only use it when its safe. Otherwise it gets Fsmashed at best and Lightning kicked at worse. I'd again have to ask you what advantages Zelda has that overcome her weaknesses.

And please just stick to the matchup at hand and keep any of your personal feelings about me out of it ^_^. If you have criticism of me please phrase it in a respectful/constructive manner. If you find me annoying then by all means don't continue the conversation. I'll point out again that you are the only person I've seen here who seems to think the match is better than 40:60. I'm not sure how I'm overhyping ZSS when everyone seems to be in agreement. Obviously I know my character's advantages much better than I know Zelda's so if Zelda has an advantage that I'm unaware of then fill me in.

Edit: I could be wrong about this but a thread in the ZSS boards says that Zelda has to Smash DI to get to the ground so she can PS the third jab hit. If so this makes it a bit harder, although still probably not worth the risk in general.

Well I don't agree with a lot of the match up ratio's that the Zelda boards have been putting out mainly Wario Falco and diddy. Most of the time it gets sumed up as Zelda being low tier and get gimped or baited thus it's 6-4 any top tier character automatically except d3. I also don't agree that it's 6-4 when you have to space perfectly not to get punished and more than likeely you will be approaching from the air and none she does can do can beat out up smash unless it's a perfectly spaced bair at a 37.2 degree angle. So far most of your arguements have been oh ZSS doesn't have to approach more than not. Jab one frame ZOMG. Then perfectly spaced bairs beat out up smash. When actually ZSS has trouble approaching Zelda. ZSS out classes Zelda on the ground and approaching from the air is risky unless yo space bairs perfectly every time at a 68.3 degree angle.

@Marsalus it doesn't say.

 

[Tien2500]

To be honest Zelda shielding the third hit of your jab combo does what? Lol her grab is frame 12 so she would have to dsmash/usmash/dtilt.............how many frames of cooldown does ZSS have after her third jab before she can jab again?

Dtilt I guess which depending on the % can be comboed into something better. Dsmash also but you have to be quick for anything to work. Someone earlier said they could lightning kick it but that seems kind of unreasonable someone will have to test that.

Well I don't agree with a lot of the match up ratio's that the Zelda boards have been putting out mainly Wario Falco and diddy. Most of the time it gets sumed up as Zelda being low tier and get gimped or baited thus it's 6-4 any top tier character automatically except d3. I also don't agree that it's 6-4 when you have to space perfectly not to get punished and more than likeely you will be approaching from the air and none she does can do can beat out up smash unless it's a perfectly spaced bair at a 37.2 degree angle. So far most of your arguements have been oh ZSS doesn't have to approach more than not. Jab one frame ZOMG. Then perfectly spaced bairs beat out up smash. When actually ZSS has trouble approaching Zelda. ZSS out classes Zelda on the ground and approaching from the air is risky unless yo space bairs perfectly every time at a 68.3 degree angle.

@Marsalus it doesn't say.

I never said ZOMG ONE FRAME JAB. But ZSS' jab is definitely useful for stopping approached. Its not incredible but if you think that a one frame move isn't going to come in handy you're wrong.

I think Nair would beat out Usmash if spaced correctly too. I admit that Zelda can take advantage of a misspacing, and overall has the better ground game, but the matchups are supposed to be based on the highest level of play and few top level ZSS players are going to have much trouble trouble spacing their bairs correctly. ZSS is going to be spacing her bair against Zelda the same way she does in every other matchup so this isn't a skill that has to be learned just for this matchup. (Bair's hitbox isn't useful at all if you're above the opponent).

While Zelda has a strong punish game ZSS' is also very good. Misspacing a move can lead to a popup which puts Zelda in a vulnerable position, and can also lead to a Dsmash. If ZSS gets Zelda into the air it is going to be incredibly hard for her to get down.

Frankly Zelda is a low tier character and having a punishable recovery is a big part of that and ZSS has the tools to take advantage of this. Likewise having trouble approaching is a problem too. Combine this with ZSS's airgame. Its not unwinnable but to win ZSS is going to have to make more mistakes than Zelda. Assuming player skill is equal ZSS has a solid edge.

 

[zeldspazz]

Legend, if youre saying that we underrate Zelda in her matchups, its better than overrating her. You have to expect the worst. I personally think Zelda does better against Diddy than we give her credit for, but it is not the numbers that count, its the technique and how you go about playing the match against a certain character is what matter.

 

[choknater]

doing the perfect glide tosses with zelda are hard for me <_< i need to practice the timing

 

[zeldspazz]

Glide tossing with Zelda is so win.

 

[Tien2500]

Zelda's glidetoss is pretty long I think a bit longer than ZSS's if done right. If ZSS' shield is low you can also glide toss and throw the item Up and then Usmash. Similarly look for ZSS to glidetoss into a d smash so careful if you're using Nayru's to reflect the armor.

 

[zeldspazz]

I catch armour with airdodge and nair usually. I only NL when Im sure they are gonna throw it. Anyway I think we are done here. On to Pit

 

[KuroganeHammer]

If ZSS is ahead (which is very likely if they know how to use the armor well at the beginning) then I don't need to do any moves really. Just hang out and wait for Zelda to approach. But you can use her paralyzer or Side B or down B if you space them correctly. As Mars pointed out bair is safe and if spaced right will knock you out of Usmash. I'm also pretty sure fast falled Nair is safe too.

So if Zelda is behind in this match and needs to approach what does she do?

PLOT TWISTZ!!!

I just have one thing to mention, and that's "WHY ARE YOU EVEN MENTIONING ZSS'S DOWN B?!?"

Horrible move. You wouldn't use it for killing or spacing. I rarely see ZSS players using down B. Ever.

They don't use it on the ground, and if they use it above you, you get a free U-smash.

 

[mountain_tiger]

PLOT TWISTZ!!!

I just have one thing to mention, and that's "WHY ARE YOU EVEN MENTIONING ZSS'S DOWN B?!?"

Horrible move. You wouldn't use it for killing or spacing. I rarely see ZSS players using down B. Ever.

They don't use it on the ground, and if they use it above you, you get a free U-smash.

Wait... did you just call ZSS' down B a horrible move? Yeah, you don't use it all that much at ground level, or to space, but calling ZSS' down B a horrible move is downright ignorance.

It can be used to kill after a DSmash (which, considering Zelda's recovery, is very possible), regardless of whether or not you meteor smash with it. And you seem to be avoiding all the other uses for it like recovering, gimping (situational, but brilliant when it works), as a pseudo-airdodge etc. Flip Jump is a great move; you just have to know when to use it.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I was exagurating. (Bad spelling lol)

It's not horrible, but it isn't great. You are all saying that it's really important in this match up. And it isn't.

ZSS will use Dsmash and she will turn around and wait. She will wait for you to come out of the stun and she will bair you. She isn't going to use Down B.

And yes, I know about the spike. It's a really powerful spike (Like Ness'?) but it's hard to do.

And ZSS can use it to stall too! xD

But it isn't quite that useful against Zelda. And like you said, you'd never use it on the ground. That's about as pointless as her F-smash.

 

[Tien2500]

PLOT TWISTZ!!!

I just have one thing to mention, and that's "WHY ARE YOU EVEN MENTIONING ZSS'S DOWN B?!?"

Horrible move. You wouldn't use it for killing or spacing. I rarely see ZSS players using down B. Ever.

They don't use it on the ground, and if they use it above you, you get a free U-smash.

I meant to say Down Smash.

 

[zeldspazz]

Also, doesnt downb have invincibility frames? And they use it for a recovery a lot. Ive also seen them downb off the side when your recovering for a surprise gimp.

 

[Tien2500]

Also, doesnt downb have invincibility frames? And they use it for a recovery a lot. Ive also seen them downb off the side when your recovering for a surprise gimp.

Yes it has invincibility frames at the start up. I It can substitute for Bair as a Dsmash finished if Bair is diminished. We already discussed its gimp potential. It also can be used to punish certain laggy moves if you make a really good read. (Or against bad players who play Snake or something and like to randomly throw out Fsmash). And its useful for getting out of combos too and just dodging in general.

Oh and I guess since I wouldn't want to overhype things I should mention that the lag is awful and the move can be seen coming from a mile away. Its a very situational move but situational =/= horrible.

But in this particular matchup it shouldn't be that useful. Unless ZSS catches Zelda with a Dsmash by the edge or for recovering purposes.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Its a very situational move but situational =/= horrible.

I feel incomprehencible temptation to quote this into my sig as an response to Marsulas' sig about Din's fire.

As for on-topic, this MU feels pretty thoroughly discussed to me. I think we can all accept the ratio of 60:40 Zamus' adv. and move on.

 

[zeldspazz]

I feel incomprehencible temptation to quote this into my sig as an response to Marsulas' sig about Din's fire.

Creepy, I was just thinking that O.O

 

[KayLo!]

I feel incomprehencible temptation to quote this into my sig as an response to Marsulas' sig about Din's fire.

Creepy, I was just thinking that O.O

Rofl, I was thinking that too, but I didn't want to be the first one to say it. XD

 

[zeldspazz]

I feel incomprehencible temptation to quote this into my sig as an response to Marsulas' sig about Din's fire.

As for on-topic, this MU feels pretty thoroughly discussed to me. I think we can all accept the ratio of 60:40 Zamus' adv. and move on.

Creepy, I was just thinking that O.O

Rofl, I was thinking that too, but I didn't want to be the first one to say it. XD

We are all too good. Simple as that

 

[-Mars-]

We are all too pathetic. Simple as that

Couldn't resist

 

[Kataefi]

Haha! Indeed! =D

And with that said I'll put it down as 60:40 ZSS advantage and get this written tonight. Ice Climbers next...

edit: read the OP if you all can and let me know if there's anything bad.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I meant to say Down Smash.

Oh.

That's okay then.

Yes it has invincibility frames at the start up. I It can substitute for Bair as a Dsmash finished if Bair is diminished. We already discussed its gimp potential. It also can be used to punish certain laggy moves if you make a really good read. (Or against bad players who play Snake or something and like to randomly throw out Fsmash). And its useful for getting out of combos too and just dodging in general.

Oh and I guess since I wouldn't want to overhype things I should mention that the lag is awful and the move can be seen coming from a mile away. Its a very situational move but situational =/= horrible.

But in this particular matchup it shouldn't be that useful. Unless ZSS catches Zelda with a Dsmash by the edge or for recovering purposes.

I bolded my favourite part.

I feel incomprehencible temptation to quote this into my sig as an response to Marsulas' sig about Din's fire.

Creepy, I was just thinking that O.O

Rofl, I was thinking that too, but I didn't want to be the first one to say it. XD

You three beat me to it!

Back on topic:
But I do agree with 60:40 ZSS.

*Runs to post in the IC thread*

 

[zeldspazz]

There is one thing Id like to say that may have to relevence at all but its just something I noticed.

There are those times when you know ZSS is going to try to up-b you to the ground, but Zelda's dair cancels ZSS's up-b hitbox, so ZSS's up-b animation continues, but there is no hitbox. Just something to keep in mind that dair is not useless in this matchup.