Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Ike

[Kataefi]

Matchup Rediscussion: Ike
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BOOYAH!
​

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Didn't we do this like, last month on the Ike boards? Or the month before that?

I'll go dig up my MU explanation...

EDIT: My summary from Ike's perspective.

A battle of two powerhouses...except Ike is heavier more disjointed, more range, and a lot better jab. :D Either 55-45 or 6-4 Ike's Advantage.

First aspect to tackle: Din's Fire. Buffed from Melee, still fairly crappy. Din's Fire is easy to powershield. Watch Zelda's arm. When it moves, shield. Ta da. Din's Fire to our Aether? That can hurt. A lot. Another thing to note that Din's Fire will clash with Ike's body during Ike's dash attack. Meaning that at the right range/situation, Ike can Dash Attack while Zelda is using Din's Fire, swing, hit Zelda, and possibly have the ending lag canceled by the clash. More likely then not though, you'll just send the Princess flying away. Assuming she even uses Din's Fire in the first place.

Our Air Game > Zelda's, as sword > leg. Doesn't mean we shouldn't fear it though. Her Uair is a serious pain (stronger then ours), and getting lightning kicked is this game's version of an aerial smash attack. Her Bair is like, frame 5 and hits harder then a donkey. If her back is to you, expect this. Even out of shield it can happen and send you flying away. Her Dair spike isn't anything to laugh at. It will kill you quite eagerly, and her Nair is a multihitting, shield poking pain. Luckily, it has fairly short range, at least in comparison to Ike.

We have a faster ground game, but Zelda's is (sad as it sounds) safer outside of our jab. Dsmash is frame 5 and can send us into our dead zone unless we tech it, Fsmash is fairly safe on block. Usmash you better learn how to SDI it the first time because once it's stale the hits deal less then 1% damage, thus making SDI impossible. Her tilts are faster then Ike's by a tad IIRC, and are quite strong. If for some odd reason you decide to use Counter against Zelda, it can KO her due to how strong her moves are, but I wouldn't recommend it. However, her jab is slow to start up. Ours isn't. Abuse it. Combat Walk her if you get the chance. Dtilt is also a pain. If you trip from a Dtilt hit, you're going to take a lot of damage in a Dtilt lock. Possibly finished by Dsmash. Ow.

Both recoveries are "lol gimp land", but I think Ike's has the slight edge in this match up, simply because we have two (if crappy) options, while Zelda has to use the one option she has...which means you can predict where she's going to appear most of the time easily (the ledge). But she has more range. Take your pick, both stink.

Stages, Pirate Ship as usual is good, but watch out for her Dair. It's a strong spike. Delfino can work well because I believe Zelda's Up B doesn't like the floating platform that much. And of course there is water. I think these two characters for the most part like similar stages...maybe just stick to what ever is your personal best stage in this match-up, though I would avoid Castle Siege. Zelda's smash attacks + lingering hitboxes on statues = ow.

When it comes to neutrals, I would actually pick FD as my goal. Zelda can have a nastly platform game between her Usmash, Uair, and Utilt, or a drop through Bair/Fair, so BF would be quite a gamble. On FD though, we can space her a lot easier. Din's Fire isn't much of a threat. Both FD and PS1's lips can screw over her recovery, more so then Ike's, so that's always a plus. Same idea with Lylat, though there is that platform issue again. If you can't get FD, go for PS1 or Smashville.

But lets be honest: this MU isn't likely to happen. Zelda can change into Sheik and have the advantage. But hey, you never know. I've already met one person who will use Zelda and not Sheik, so there are those crazy people out there.

 

[Bandit]

Zelda is forced to shield a lot and work past his jab game. Ike is one of the few characters I will run and throw dins at all game. There is no reason to get near him because you will lose.

With that said, if you can Dsmash him near the ledge, he's as good as dead.

Any wide stage.

 

[MrEh]

Jab OoS. gg

 

[GodAtHand]

If you can powershield well this match gets a lot easier. It creates many more openings to get in and rack up damage than regular shielding.

He outranges us obviously so you kinda have to play sneaky. You can run away and Din's and hope for those mistakes, no problem there just don't be reckless.

Take advantage when he is high above you and offstage, those are your chances to take the lead or make a comeback.

There is a lot more to discuss... I just don't feel like it. If I think of something important I'll post though.

I personally think its between 55-45 and 60-40 Ike.

 

[-Mars-]

Hmmmmm Ike huh?

Ban Delfino's.

Still think this matchup is a 6-4 advantage for Ike. Din's is very good against his recovery since Ike can't really afford to airdodge more than once, in fact if I was an Ike I might actually let myself get hit with Din's sometimes.

The reason this matchup is dumb is because Ike's fair is near unpunishable by Zelda when he spaces correctly. He also has a superior punishment game in this matchup because of jab. At times I think this matchup is worse than marth lol.

 

[Bandit]

Just wanted to point out that all of his aerials have transcendental priority, so he cannot cancel a dins with any of his aerials. His only options are air dodge and counter.

 

[JuJux]

Ike ...
I think this MU is like 5 - 5 or 55 - 45 in Ike's favor.

In this match up, I :
-shield (and Oos),
-run away and din (forcing him to approach me, and to punish some of his aerial's approach)
-grab,
-abuse Usmash when he's in the air
-edgeguard with din, edgehogg and ledgeattack < 100%
-Always Bup on the edge or on him (depending of what he is doing)
-TDI/SDI his jabs like hell to never be jab cancel combo or (70% of time) never be touched by the 3rd hit.
-Use Bneutral or Nair cancel instead of airdodge when you land on the ground

His Fair is really predictable, perfect shield and punish it (with dash attack or dash grab).

All the time TDI/SDI his Jab, it's THE thing to do in this match up (imo).

Edgehogg forces him to use his Bup towards the ground and, use your ledge attack (>100%), it's a real pain for him because if he doesn't DI he returns offstage and he has to use his Bup again (and you repeat the same thing until he DI lol), and if he DI you can punish him with Usmash, dash attack, LK,Uair, Dsmash, ect (depending if he airdodges, jump, ect).

Dtilt lock to Dsmash is fuc*ing good here lol.

Bann stages where it's really hard to autosweetspot the ledge.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Ike's a really frustrating MU for me... Fair and Nair are, as far as I can tell, unpunishable due to their huge range. PSing is a must.

That said, DSmash completely ***** him if you do it close to the edge. You don't even need to edgeguard him; he's basically dead. However, that can also flip the other way. If he can successfully predict where you'll go, then he can USmash or even FSmash you, which needless to say is horrible.

Getting an early lead is essential, because otherwise he'll simply hit you with Fairs as you approach, and there's not a whole lot you can do about it. DTilt is especially helpful here if you can land it, since it leads into the aforementioned deadly DSmash. I'm not sure how DTilt's range compares to Ike's jab, mind you...

I'd say it's 40:60.

 

[Kataefi]

Just wanted to point out that all of his aerials have transcendental priority, so he cannot cancel a dins with any of his aerials. His only options are air dodge and counter.

Oh really??? That's very interesting... I'm convinced he can cut through it with his aerials but din's can snipe them in their longer startup and cooldown animation.

 

[zeldspazz]

Bann stages where it's really hard to autosweetspot the ledge.

So that would include

-Delfino
-Brinstar
-Lylat
-PS1

Right?

 

[-Mars-]

Halberd I think unless that's just me sucking ballz. Probably don't want to go to frigate either.

 

[zeldspazz]

Oh yeah forgot Halberd. Frigate is my favorite stage Im not ditching that lmao x.x

 

[Veggie123]

Ike completely outranges us in the air, but nair/fair work well against Ike if you can see a spaced aerial coming, since they're all pretty slow. He can't really reliably retaliate when he's in the air either without proper spacing so it's a good option to consider.

Careful when and where you usmash. If he shields it and he's facing away from you, say hi to Ike's bair oos and to your next stock if you're around 90%+

Also, be mindful how you follow up after jabbing Ike at low percents. If you go for the grab, you're likely to eat a few jabs to the face yourself.

What do you guys do when he bthrows you offstage? It's annoying cause the knockback is mostly horizontal but Zelda tends to dip slightly underneath the ledge which kinda sucks cause now you need to jump or recover low or get hit with dash attack. If you jump, you can get hit with fair and if you airdodge back onto the stage he can throw you off again. I know this MU pretty well, but the bthrow thing bugs me cause it puts me in such a bad spot. I might be DIing the throw wrong or something.

 

[PK-ow!]

Jab OoS. gg

This.


How fast is Ike's jab? If it's frame 3, I got nothing.

If it's frame 4 to hit at max range or something, I have Zelda jab tricks I can back up on paper.



As usual, Down+B is the mad tech.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Don't get jabbed and you wreck him,

 

[-Mars-]

Yea don't get hit by one of the best jabs in the game and you can completely wreck Ike guys.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't think Zelda can shieldgrab Ike's Jab between hits (only if he Jab cancels), so that sucks for her.

 

[zeldspazz]

Hey Kata, werent you working on something about Sheild SDI, where you can DI up after Ike's first part of his jab and LK?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Just a reminder for everyone concerned about Ike's jab: despite it being an awesome move and outspeeding everything Zelda has she still outranges it. It also heavily loses its effectiveness when SDI'd correctly.

Also remember that Ike can't pressure her nearly as well as many other characters due to his lack of a projectile and aerials that are fast on startup. Because of this Zelda doesn't have to rush her approach when she's forced to rely on it, which in turn makes spacing much easier for her.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yea don't get hit by one of the best jabs in the game and you can completely wreck Ike guys.

Doesn't matter how good it is if you don't get hit by it.

 

[-Mars-]

If it's really good then there's a slight chance that you may be getting hit by it.

 

[MrEh]

Not getting hit by Ike's jab?

Absurd.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If it's really good then there's a slight chance that you may be getting hit by it.

Not getting hit by Ike's jab?

Absurd.

It's a good move but it's just a jab relax guys keep it in your pants.

 

[MrEh]

It's a good move

You just proved my point.

 

[KayLo!]

Aaaaaaaaanyways.

So, which of Ike's moves can we punish OOS? And with what? Being a Zelda who doesn't like to run away and camp for 8 minutes (which is useless anyway since he can just jab > walk > jab > walk), one of my biggest problems vs. Ike is that most of his moves have enough shield stun/push to be safe on block.

Unless my perfect shield game is on point, it's really hard to get inside him and punish anything he does. A list of moves we can reliably counter from a shield would be nice. =X

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Aaaaaaaaanyways.

So, which of Ike's moves can we punish OOS? And with what? Being a Zelda who doesn't like to run away and camp for 8 minutes (which is useless anyway since he can just jab > walk > jab > walk), one of my biggest problems vs. Ike is that most of his moves have enough shield stun/push to be safe on block.

Unless my perfect shield game is on point, it's really hard to get inside him and punish anything he does. A list of moves we can reliably counter from a shield would be nice. =X

All of them except jab. Ike move isn't safe on shield.

 

[KayLo!]

...........Okay.

Somebody with actual Ike experience answer please. I'm not trying to be mean, but you're wrong. ;;

Unless I'm really misunderstanding you.

 

[Veggie123]

Ike's nair has very little landing lag, he can jab after it pretty quickly, so it's usually not worth punishing.

The rest of his moves are pretty laggy save jab/SH bair, but the amount of shield pushback really detriments much punishment directly out of shield since it messes with spacing (perfect shielding everything is something most people can't do). Though I usually have enough time to dash grab anything save jab/SH bair/well spaced fairs.

Ike can zone her pretty well. If she's too far you'll eat spaced fairs, but linger too close and get jabbed all day! This is a MU where Zelda's ground speed really comes back to haunt her.

 

[KayLo!]

Ike's nair has very little landing lag, he can jab after it pretty quickly, so it's usually not worth punishing.

The rest of his moves are pretty laggy save jab/SH bair, but the amount of shield pushback really detriments much punishment directly out of shield since it messes with spacing (perfect shielding everything is something most people can't do). Though I usually have enough time to dash grab anything save jab/SH bair/well spaced fairs.

This is a MU where Zelda's ground speed really comes back to haunt her.

Yeah, that's the problem..... he definitely lags, but shield push + Zelda's slow ground speed mean that if he's spacing well (which is what I'm always assuming -- obviously badly spaced attacks can be punished), you'll get jabbed in the face if you try to punish him. Or shieldgrabbed.

I was wondering if there are any attacks (aerials in particular) of his that are punishable even when they're spaced well.

Or attacks that are easy/common for Ikes to misspace, because I have yet to play an Ike who badly spaces their fairs..... fairing properly is Ike 101, lol.

 

[Veggie123]

Rather than punishing after the attack, I've managed to hit Ike a lot before he gets his fair off with nair and fair. Zelda's fair actually has ok range that takes advantage of Zelda's airspeed and even if it sourspots, Ike can't do anything quick enough to punish the little hitstun it has.

 

[KayLo!]

Ooo, never thought of trying that. Thanks for the idea.

That actually..... gives me a spark of inspiration. *runs off to her Wii!*