Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Diddy Kong

[sasook]

Oh I see. I've always seen 4:6 as a soft-counter, a "doable matchup" if you will. I wouldn't argue with a 6:4 Diddy ratio.

 

[GodAtHand]

Yah I always thought a 6-4 matchup was "Stay focused and you will do well" kinda thing. Any more and I think it is a counter but I would just call it a slight disadvantage.

 

[mountain_tiger]

40:60 in Diddy's favour sounds about right. It's clearly in his favour, but unlike with some other top tiers Zelda does have a chance of winning if she knows what to do.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't have problems with diddies that aren't better than me, so I can't see this matchup as being worse than a slight (51:49-41:59) his advantage. And as for marth, he's not a hard counter, but he's nowhere close to even. That puts him pretty squarely in the 60:40-69:31 range

 

[-Mars-]

Just droppin' by at Kataefi's kind request:

Zelda finds herself at a distinct disadvantage on multiple fronts in this match-up: average ground speed, mediocre horizontal and vertical aerial movement, significant amount of cool-down on many of her attacks, and a linear and predictable recovery. Her only real strength in this match-up is her general KO superiority, but even those become calculated risks.

Since Diddy outclasses Zelda in so many ways, her primary posture in this match-up is mostly going to be defensive. None of her KO attacks are safe against Diddy's shield, especially with the plethora of options he gains once he puts one up. It's imperative for Zelda's exploitation of the cool-down on some of Diddy's moves to be measured and on point; she trades in the ability to string together attacks in a reliable follow-up for moderate damage output and knock-back, so she will find herself in a position where her own attacks are resetting both her and her opponent's stance back to neutral.

By contrast, Diddy Kong easily eclipses his own inability to reliable kill by being able to safely and swiftly rack up damage after exploiting one instance of vulnerability.

Other notes:

• Pressuring Diddy's shield with jab is, of course, quite reliable, and should be used to cover cool-down on your attacks against an approaching Diddy whenever possible.
• At maximum range, Zelda's F-air and B-air slightly out-ranges Diddy's F-air, although I would not hinge the match-up on this minor tidbit as a turning point in the match-up.
• Some of Diddy's attacks either move or extend his collision boxes; none of them are disjointed. With somewhat lenient timing, all of these can be countered by Naryu's Love.
• With great anticipation, Zelda can actually out-prioritize Monkey Flip with F-tilt or U-tilt.
• The lingering hit-box on Diddy Kong's Monkey Kick can pass through Din's Fire.
• Many characters Diddy goes up against have glide tosses that are comparable or even superior in length. However, all of them lack Diddy's versatility and general ability to micromanage items, so a glide toss becomes fairly obvious once these characters gain possession of a banana peel. Glide-tossing into a smash attack is everyone's played-out go-to strategy, so do your best to not telegraph your intents.

Against a character like Diddy, minor mistakes like this become costly over the course of a match, and this is the unfortunate and undeniable reality of the match-up, simply due to the lengthy nature of Zelda's cool-down on her moves. Excluding immeasurable variables like "mind games" and "being able to mix it up," there is absolutely no conceivable way this is in Zelda's favor, nor is it an even match-up. As with all match-ups though, there are small things you can do to make a disadvantaged face-off more tolerable, but Zelda will inevitably have to work much harder than Diddy Kong to net the win.

Zelda doesn't have cooldown on jab, nair, bair, dtilt, and fsmash. Her ko options are not calculated risks......don't know where you came up with that one.

Dtilt is one of the better moves for stringing together attacks in the game.

Zelda doesn't have cooldown on a lot of her moves.....you just have to play the Diddy matchup differently.

Yeah, sorry, I'm still with ADHD on this one. Zelda is actually one of my secondaries (and I have used her in tournament), and I've had a bit of practice with this match-up from both sides myself. The only thing you directly disagreed with was that she, according to you, actually has good aerial movement, but I was strictly only comparing it to Diddy's. Other than that, you've offered no evidence to support your claim that this is in Zelda's favor. How can she possibly have the advantage in the face of having obscene lag on all of her attacks, a bad recovery and no reliable zoning tools once Diddy rushes her down from mid-range?

Honestly, I don't even think it's that close.

She doesn't have obscene lag on all of her attacks. Making such a ludicrous statement like that is amusing to me especially when you consider the fact that you're attempting to dissect another person's post.

The problem with the way people currently discuss and analyze match-ups in these types of threads is that most people adopt exactly this sort of linear approach to the match-up. We're not evaluating each character's respective moves pound for pound, because that tends to be one of the least important aspects of a match-up.

It just so happens that Zelda vs. Diddy Kong is perfect in illustrating this: in this match-up, Zelda is matchless when you consider the sheer number of attacks she boasts with both excellent knock-back and extraordinary KO power. In fact, with the exception of her jab, N-air and D-tilt, all of her moves can net her kills. That's a total of 11 different options she can fall back on, which is an extensive amount of variety.

If we were to look at match-ups strictly on a move-by-move basis, Zelda would have the majority of the cast beat out.

However, these are not points that match-up advantages exclusively pivot on. We have to look at the entire package - amount of start-up and cool-down frames, priority, ground and air speed, stock longevity, move set versatility, etc. - in order to accurately assess something as subjective as a match-up favor.

At the end of the day, I believe this specific match-up turns on how well Diddy can maximize damage once he creates an opening from punishing the cool-down on any of Zelda's various attacks (this includes drawing out the lag on obvious counterattack measures like Naryu's Love, whiffed smashes, etc.). She only has one viable pressure option over long distances (Din's Fire) and a handful of pressure options in close quarters in the form of her smashes and D-tilt; at mid-range, a distance right outside of her melee attacks, but not far enough for her to safely pressure with Din's Fire, she has absolutely no answer. At this range, it's just a matter of Diddy forcing Zelda into a predictable defensive posture and baiting an opening.


On a related note: a quick search on YouTube yields a couple of matches of a Diddy Kong I have never heard of before convincingly beating DarkMusician both times.

Here you go again with the lag argument.In fact even mentioning Naryu's as being punshable by Diddy is pretty funny. Zelda players rarely use naryus at all.

Whiffed fsmashes are pretty safe due to it's almost non-existant cooldown.

On a related note: a quick search on YouTube yields a couple of matches of a Link player beating DSF and M2K in money matches. Come on bro, a player of your standing should know better than this. You can't assume that DM has matchup experience with Diddy.

I agree with the majority of your posts like Zelda not being able to deal with Diddy in that mid-range area. Just stop with the "Zelda is slow and has lag" argument. I keep having to explain this to people everytime we have a matchup discussion. Not only does she have auto cancelled aerials.....she has low cooldown on several of her moves, IASA frames on her dtilt, true combos, insane OoS options(making bair extremely viable), and setups for her kill moves.

Oh and Diddy's recovery is in no way safe against Zelda.

Like I said earlier in the thread.....this is a hard matchup for Zelda. About a 6-4 advantage for Diddy, but only because of his camping/banana game.

 

[KayLo!]

Uhh, Zelda's only "autocanceled" aerial is nair. Just pointing that out. All of her other aerials have considerable lag unless you perfectly SH them, but then you have to deal with their cooldown.

We might just be defining the word differently, but I think saying she has autocanceled aerials makes her sound like Peach or something, lol. Gives off the wrong impression, imo.

 

[-Mars-]

I'm curious..........what cooldown do you have to deal with with her bair?

 

[KayLo!]

I'm curious..........what cooldown do you have to deal with with her bair?

Haven't done her aerials yet (except for dair, most of nair, and the startups for the rest), so I'm not sure on the exact frames.

*boots up her Wii* -_-

EDIT: Nvm, my sister's using the TV, so I'll get back to you tomorrow.

 

[-Mars-]

Even if bair doesn't technically auto-cancel........the point is that bair and nair are fast and have extremely low cooldown.

Edit: Lol not that it matters but i'm pretty sure dair auto cancels as well.

 

[KayLo!]

Edit: Lol not that it matters but i'm pretty sure dair auto cancels as well.

Dair autocancels on the last 5 frames of cooldown lag (frames 40-44), so I don't think that counts, lol. Otherwise it has 21 frames of landing lag. I only know this because I just did the testing for the Sexy Poses! thread.

EDIT: Forget this part, it was pointless, lol. I'll just do the testing tomorrow. x.x

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

this match is even.

 

[Kataefi]

Dude you must explain!

Also... it doesn't look even imo because Zelda's the one playing reactive in this... she needs to react to everything Diddy does with his bananas thus giving him good baiting options. The same can't be said vice versa. She can even it out depending on if she can keep herself lagless and difficult to bait... but in general her passive nature is what gives a good Diddy the opportunity to be all over her.

Diddy pulls a banana out - what is Zelda really going to do? She's either going to avoid it, or going to reflect it, those are her only options. Now if she can acquire some bananas on her own accord then she can start to bait also... but Diddy primarily pulls them out for himself and himself only, he's not going to easily give them up.

My $0.02

 

[Le_THieN]

Zelda doesn't have cooldown on jab, nair, bair, dtilt, and fsmash. Her ko options are not calculated risks......don't know where you came up with that one.

Clearly, no one is carefully reading the things I'm saying. She has, according to my count, 11 possible KO attacks, many of which actually do have significant number of cool-down frames to punish.

F-smash is the only one of those attacks that is safe to space and even spam with because of its relatively low cool-down time. By contrast, virtually everything else is not. In fact, almost none of them are safe against shields. I can't even begin to count the number of times I've been punished by B-airing or F-airing out of my shield, only to have it blocked or even perfect-shielded back to subsequently lose frame advantage.

Then you have other instant start-up moves like U-smash and dash attack. Even though it has multi-hit properties, U-smash has not had a high success ratio of stabbing through shields, especially against smaller characters with excellent shield durability (i.e. Diddy Kong). Also, if you're relying on dash attack to net you a KO, something somewhere during the stock has gone terribly wrong.

Do I have to talk about how slow F-tilt and U-tilt are?

Finally, you have U-air and D-air, which - let's face it - are limited to situational uses due to the vertically linear nature of the hit-boxes, as well as mild start-up time on both of them.

Really, the problem with almost all of her KO moves is that they are often telegraphed by things like stage positioning and increased aggression corresponding with the percentages of Zelda's opponents. Conversely, Diddy Kong at least has a couple of guaranteed setups into his limited repertoire of weak KO attacks, and they generally work almost all the time.

On a related note: a quick search on YouTube yields a couple of matches of a Link player beating DSF and M2K in money matches. Come on bro, a player of your standing should know better than this. You can't assume that DM has matchup experience with Diddy.

If you had followed this dialogue more carefully, "bro," you would have realized that I only mentioned those videos in response to Kataefi, who openly queried whether or not there were actual videos of this match-up. And since you're nitpicking, DarkMusician also has videos of him tearing up (I believe) the same Diddy months ago (around last autumn) in tournament. The videos I found a day ago are from January and this summer respectively, and that same Diddy player more or less demonstrates a persuasive amount of control and knowledge of the match-up in both cases.

I can't safely assume how their sets have been going in-between the period of January and June/July 2009, but I can say with almost 100% certainty that DarkMusician's defeats against this mysterious Diddy Kong player in tournament have nothing to do with a lack of match-up experience.

Perhaps you should consider doing a little research of your own before you make sweeping assumptions like that on the behalf of someone else.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Dude you must explain!

Also... it doesn't look even imo because Zelda's the one playing reactive in this... she needs to react to everything Diddy does with his bananas thus giving him good baiting options. The same can't be said vice versa. She can even it out depending on if she can keep herself lagless and difficult to bait... but in general her passive nature is what gives a good Diddy the opportunity to be all over her.

Diddy pulls a banana out - what is Zelda really going to do? She's either going to avoid it, or going to reflect it, those are her only options. Now if she can acquire some bananas on her own accord then she can start to bait also... but Diddy primarily pulls them out for himself and himself only, he's not going to easily give them up.

My $0.02

Well Lethein already stated how Zelda moves are better than Diddy Kong. Yeah his nana's are are annoying however, that goes for every match up. I could see if you were playing bowser. And nana's will totally like screw you because of your large size. With that said what the Zelda player should be trying to do is reduce the effective ness of his bannas. Either by taking control of them or separate him from his nanas. You can bait your opponent with out nanas. I'm almost certain if diddy is above you and you jump he will air dodge to avoid the up air. Guess what you baited the airdodge now punish that ish. If he tries to beat it out with an attack store that in your mind next time you have the up air. I normally use dash attack to pick up nanas on the ground.

 

[KayLo!]

I normally use dash attack to pick up nanas on the ground.

Unless you're both racing for the banana at once, it's usually better to just pick them up out of a run. Dash attack is easily punished if he shields or waits for the cooldown.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Unless you're both racing for the banana at once, it's usually better to just pick them up out of a run. Dash attack is easily punished if he shields or waits for the cooldown.

I'll have to keep that in mind. What you mean out of a run?

@Le thein you don't really on DA for kills but it's nice to know that as they get around 140 roughly I'd say that DA starts becoming dangerous so that's just one more move to add to her already freakish KO potential.

 

[KayLo!]

What you mean out of a run?

If you skid to a stop (either by just stopping or hitting down on the control stick) and hit A to pick up a banana at the same time, the pickup animation will replace the "skidding" animation. You'll pick up the banana -- or whatever item it is -- without dash attacking.

The timing isn't too strict, but if you hit A too early, you'll dash attack anyway. Hit A too late, and you'll skid.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If you skid to a stop (either by just stopping or hitting down on the control stick) and hit A to pick up a banana at the same time, the pickup animation will replace the "skidding" animation. You'll pick up the banana -- or whatever item it is -- without dash attacking.

The timing isn't too strict, but if you hit A too early, you'll dash attack anyway. Hit A too late, and you'll skid.

HmmM I never knew that will you do a move or just pick up the nana ?

 

[KayLo!]

You just stop and pick it up instantly.

Man, I wish I could see Zelda dribble bananas. That'd be pretty sweet, not that it's likely she'll ever have control over both. x.x (Plus I don't think she can dribble anyway.)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You just stop and pick it up instantly.

Man, I wish I could see Zelda dribble bananas. That'd be pretty sweet, not that it's likely she'll ever have control over both. x.x (Plus I don't think she can dribble anyway.)

Training mode whip out those nanas.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Specifics please?

Saying, "Seperate Diddy from his bananas and take control of him," is really vague, and if banana control was that easy to master, everyone would have an advantageous match-up against him. What tools does Zelda have to seperate Diddy from his bananas? To bait and punish banana tricks? How can Zelda maintain one banana in her control, or two? Or can't she?

And you really took what Le_Thien said out of context. By themselves, Zelda's individual moves may beat a lot of the cast's individual moves in terms of knockback, damage, and range (he never specifically said against Diddy, either), but he said that's the wrong way people are discussing match-ups. The entire package has to be looked at, including the cooldown, start-up, priority, speed of the attack, as well as how they can be utilized in an actual match. While Zelda has a lot of kill options, their viability in this match-up are severely diminished, as most of them can be easily punished in a variety of ways.

 

[-Mars-]

Clearly, no one is carefully reading the things I'm saying. She has, according to my count, 11 possible KO attacks, many of which actually do have significant number of cool-down frames to punish.

Really, the problem with almost all of her KO moves is that they are often telegraphed by things like stage positioning and increased aggression corresponding with the percentages of Zelda's opponents. Conversely, Diddy Kong at least has a couple of guaranteed setups into his limited repertoire of weak KO attacks, and they generally work almost all the time.

*facepalm* Really? Maybe you should consider the fact that dtilt ............I dunno........maybe......leads into actual guaranteed setups for half of her KO moves? We have a whole thread that has info for her frame advantages with dtilt............even without a trip. Now if you do trip with dtilt, you're getting hit with dsmash. At higher percents dtilt pops you into the air right above Zeldas head.......tell me do you want to be above Zelda's head?

Clearly, I am carefully reading the things you are saying.......you just don't know a thing about Zelda's metagame. I honestly don't blame you since there are about 5 Zelda's in the world but I digress.

Dtilt's a frame 5 move. I can use it OoS and it will clank or beat almost all of Diddy's moveset. The thing has a ton of priority, it's fast, and the cooldown on it is almost non-existant.

Conversely Zelda has a guaranteed setup into her wealthy repertoire of strong KO attacks, and it generally works all of the time.

If you had followed this dialogue more carefully, "bro," you would have realized that I only mentioned those videos in response to Kataefi, who openly queried whether or not there were actual videos of this match-up. And since you're nitpicking, DarkMusician also has videos of him tearing up (I believe) the same Diddy months ago (around last autumn) in tournament. The videos I found a day ago are from January and this summer respectively, and that same Diddy player more or less demonstrates a persuasive amount of control and knowledge of the match-up in both cases.

I can't safely assume how their sets have been going in-between the period of January and June/July 2009, but I can say with almost 100% certainty that DarkMusician's defeats against this mysterious Diddy Kong player in tournament have nothing to do with a lack of match-up experience.

Perhaps you should consider doing a little research of your own before you make sweeping assumptions like that on the behalf of someone else.

Awwww somebody didn't like being called bro. I don't really care to be honest with you.......but I would love to see those videos.

 

[Le_THieN]

LOL.

I named eleven moves that Zelda had that were capable of killing. D-tilt is merely a setup move, and is naturally lacks the qualifications required to be described as something capable of KOing.

I don't blame you for challenging my qualifications as a Zelda player; up until this point, I have merely only lurked your boards. However, I have used Zelda a few times in tournament, and quite frequently every other time I play Brawl since the game's release. I'm fully aware of D-tilt's utility - it's easily her best tilt, and I generally am able to get away with one or two and then finish the string off with a D-smash before my opponent catches on and SDIs the attack. At higher percents (usually past 80%), D-tilt results in pop-up knock-back - just high enough and long enough for D-tilt into U-tilt and U-smash to be a true, inescapable combo. I have gotten off F-airs in the past, although I hesitate to call it a guaranteed follow-up.

Even considering this, however, that is only one setup that allows her access to - in a best-case scenario - three of her KO attacks, all of which are dependent on percentages, human response time (as far as opposing SDI goes), and the chance for D-tilt to trip. Most of all of Zelda's other options tend to see fruition after baiting things like air-dodges and spot-dodges, but none of which have the same frequency and guarantee of success as Diddy Kong's banana peel traps and setups.

For the record, Diddy's D-tilt comes out on Frame 4.

I may lack the depth of knowledge of a tried-and-true Zelda main, but I think it's fair to say that you've equally underestimated my personal understanding of the character. I also think you are fooling yourself if you think there is more to Zelda's meta-game than a mildly effective version of a bait-and-punish game; it has always been my belief that while Zelda is (surprisingly enough) one of the most powerful characters in the game, she generally lacks the tools and resources that her high-to-top-tier counterparts have in order to effectively play hard ball with the rest of that cast.

Zelda, as buffed as she is from her Melee days, is a shining example of how even having one of the most powerful move sets in the game can only take you so far.

Lastly, I'd like to say that I've been trying my hardest to be cordial because I just noticed that you paid homage to Michael Jackson in your sig 10 minutes ago, LOL.

 

[-Mars-]

I agree. I don't think Zelda's good in this game nor do I think she wins this matchup. The whole reason behind my post was because you stated that Diddy had guaranteed setups into his KO moves and that Zelda's were telegraphed........that's it.

As for her metagame......I agree as well. Your previous posts we're just focused on her lag and cooldown and I was merely making the case that she has moves without cooldown and you can use her effectively without getting punished all of the time for it.

You then we're talking about her KO moves and how telegraphed they are and well I agree but when she has a frame 5 move that leads into her KO setups at KO percentages then it makes her kill moves a little more viable than most people will like to admit.

Oh and <3 MJ.

 

[Kaffei]

All these negative match ups are making me want to quit playing Zelda, lol.

 

[RoyalBlood]

The ratio is meaningless if you are unable to win by yourself.

So what matters is the player.

Edit: Correction // What matters the MOST is the player.

whoops, typo

 

[Kaffei]

The ratio is meaningless if you are unable to win by yourself.

So what matters is the player.

Edit: Coorection // What matters the MOST is the player.

Yeah, I usually say this to myself.
Have you seen the video of Tyrael's Zelda vs Kizzu's Marth? Tyrael won, & I was like WOW.

 

[KayLo!]

The ratio is meaningless if you are unable to win by yourself.

So what matters is the player.

Edit: Coorection // What matters the MOST is the player.

That's true..... in some cases.

Ratios are more or less a measure of how much you may or may not have to outplay your opponent in order to win that particular matchup.

Yes, the player matters, but the likelihood of winning, say, a 20:80 matchup in tournament at moderate-high levels of play is slim. Especially in a 3- or 5-match set. The fact that Zelda has so many of these hard matchups means that as a player, you really need to excel beyond many of your opponents to be able to win.

It's not impossible. But it's **** hard, and to pretend that a little skill will save you is fairly shortsighted.

@Kaffei: If it really bothers you, the best thing to do is to pick up a secondary that covers Zelda's worst matchups. Otherwise, just focus on learning as many matchups as you can and being able to outthink your opponents (rather than simply playing vs. their character), because that's the only way to succeed with Zelda for the most part.

 

[Kaffei]

That's true..... in some cases.

Ratios are more or less a measure of how much you may or may not have to outplay your opponent in order to win that particular matchup.

Yes, the player matters, but the likelihood of winning, say, a 20:80 matchup in tournament at moderate-high levels of play is slim. Especially in a 3- or 5-match set. The fact that Zelda has so many of these hard matchups means that as a player, you really need to excel beyond many of your opponents to be able to win.

It's not impossible. But it's **** hard, and to pretend that a little skill will save you is fairly shortsighted.

@Kaffei: If it really bothers you, the best thing to do is to pick up a secondary that covers Zelda's worst matchups. Otherwise, just focus on learning as many matchups as you can and being able to outthink your opponents (rather than simply playing vs. their character), because that's the only way to succeed with Zelda for the most part.

Well, I use Marth as a secondary, if that's any good @.@

Ignore my sig, it's old. >_>

 

[RoyalBlood]

That's true..... in some cases.

Ratios are more or less a measure of how much you may or may not have to outplay your opponent in order to win that particular matchup.

Yes, the player matters, but the likelihood of winning, say, a 20:80 matchup in tournament at moderate-high levels of play is slim. Especially in a 3- or 5-match set. The fact that Zelda has so many of these hard matchups means that as a player, you really need to excel beyond many of your opponents to be able to win.

It's not impossible. But it's **** hard, and to pretend that a little skill will save you is fairly shortsighted.

@Kaffei: If it really bothers you, the best thing to do is to pick up a secondary that covers Zelda's worst matchups. Otherwise, just focus on learning as many matchups as you can and being able to outthink your opponents (rather than simply playing vs. their character), because that's the only way to succeed with Zelda for the most part.

Keyword

If the player is much better & is able to win then what matters the most is the player itself.

Also you are saying it like the people deciding the ratios are the best in the world & that's quite false. (Maybe the best in your region)

Take region, skill & specific location to prepare yourself in a match.

Ratios are not absolute & will vary depending on the player.

Remember not everyone has the funds to travel to a tournament so they're only known in their homes.

Also everyone's entitled to their own opinions.

Though you're better off listening to Kaylo! Kaffei, do what you feel more comfortable with.

Take advice just as that, advice, not orders.

Spoiler

>__> I just sounded as if I knew a lot >__>

 

[KayLo!]

To be honest, I'm not quite sure where you were going with your last post.

My point was that saying ratios are useless is wrong, especially in a matchup thread where we're assuming the players are of equal skill. If you're playing an MK or an Olimar or a G&W, just being better than your opponent isn't going to cut it. You need to be wtfhaxbetter than them, predict like a god, or they need to make a ridiculous amount of mistakes -- or a combination of the three.

But, whatever, this is getting off-topic. Back to Diddy?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

despite the tier differences, this is really not a bad matchup... but it's not our advantage either.

 

[RoyalBlood]

To be honest, I'm not quite sure where you were going with your last post.

My point was that saying ratios are useless is wrong.

Ummm..

The ratio is meaningless if you are unable to win by yourself.

Who said that? Because I wasn't ^_^

It seems it was a misunderstanding.

I apologize.

Now back to Diddy, Power Shield Bannanas ---> Slap him with your foot! (eh?) I mean, Down Smash.

Glide Toss & Forward Smash at a convenient distance so that the bannana hits his shield but you do not get close & then F-smash tip = Shield Pushback + approach.

Or you could SH -> Z catch -> Jump over him -> Back air his back

Just like Falco & Fox except you need to Z catch & predict his moves as well as having an open mind that believes in magic & good reflexes.

Spoiler

lawl

 

[KayLo!]

*facepalm*

.....Anyway, Kataefi, you might want to add a note in the OP about Z drop > aerial catching bananas. Although Zelda doesn't really fight all that much in the air, it's useful to know how to do aerials without having to throw the banana first..... and since you have a similar note on how to smash with bananas, I figure it's just as useful.

 

[Kataefi]

Sure! How is the OP btw? It literally is a summation of practically every useful post here so I hope it's somewhat true to the matchup.

 

[sasook]

All these negative match ups are making me want to quit playing Zelda, lol.

Lol, when you main a character like mine, these ratios look golden.


Btw guys, instead of typing out Z Catch, you can just say ZAC. That's what we do on the Link boards since.....probably over a year ago lol. ZAC = Z drop, Aerial, Catch.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

All these negative match ups are making me want to quit playing Zelda, lol.

Man up *****

 

[Kataefi]

Let's try not to derail the topic at hand - what are some good stages that hinder banana control?

I think one of the pokemon stadiums could do very well here perhaps...

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Let's try not to derail the topic at hand - what are some good stages that hinder banana control?

I think one of the pokemon stadiums could do very well here perhaps...

we do far better on PS1 than PS2 in my experience.

how's Brinstar for Diddy?

 

[zeldspazz]

Norfair is a good place to bring Diddy. Id think Brinstar is ok, since the lava can make the ground unaccessable for nanners.