Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Charizard

[Kataefi]

Matchup Rediscussion: Pokemon Trainer - Charizard
(back to the matchup directory)

 

[mountain_tiger]

I don't see why we can't do all three Pokemon in one thread. *shrugs*

I think it might be Charizards's favour, since he punishes Zelda really well with Rock Smash, and kills her early with moves like DThrow. We can force him to approach if we get a percentage lead, which helps, and he's a bigger target for lightning kicks.

I'm thinking 45:55, but I'm not 100% sure.

 

[GodAtHand]

I don't know any Charizard mains so... I don't know how to help here.

I don't see this as being tough though. He is slow in the air, his glide attack is awful, his recovery is crappy. Just get him in the air and went from even-ish to your favor. Rock smash is very slow, unless you wiffed something huge at the wrong time or were not paying attention you should not get hit by it often (Even when hit can't you SDI out?). He is a big target for lightning kicks which matters against him because it is actually really useful. His grabs are good as long as he is not tired and his jab is pretty decent too.

Overall I would personally give this a 55-45 Zelda.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

(Even when hit can't you SDI out?).

Not from the initial attack (the big boulder) because it's just one hit. The small rocks that fly after he crushes the boulder can be SDI'd and reflected though.

 

[JuJux]

I don't know lot of PT mainer so i don't know really how to help for this MU.

But Charizard has a big hurtbox (Time to space some LK and good target for some Nair autocancel combo, Dsmash often connect twice).
He's slow on his air's move (Usmash is too good here).
Din is very usefull against him imo (especially when he's recovering or try some approch with Rock smash, and Din forces Charizard to approch cause of his stamina).
Rock smash is predictable and punishable with Shield grab, OoS LK, and Dtilt or Dsmash (if close) and some of his Killing move are really predictable (Fsmash, Usmash can be SDI'd (SDI back of Charizard), Grab ,(Dsmash lol?)) and his glide attack SUCKS ! his best way to kill you is his tilts (Ftilt, Dtilt) imo.
Fsmash outrange all of Charizard's ground moveset, Zelda can LK in his Fair or Rock smash.

You can't LK in his Bneutral like with Bowser (SDI out and don't try to punish it), all the time SDI out/up if his Rock smash hits you (15~% instead of 45%)
Space with Fsmash and din like hell and punish some air's approch with your Usmash, Nair or LK.


Personally, the MU is more like 60/40 (Zelda's favor) here ^^

 

[Kataefi]

How do people deal with his ftilt and dtilt? I find they can trade a lot wth Zelda and she ends up getting the worst end of the trade.

 

[JuJux]

How do people deal with his ftilt and dtilt? I find they can trade a lot wth Zelda and she ends up getting the worst end of the trade.

Zelda's Fsmash has more range than Charizard's ftilt/dtilt, or use Dsmash after their hitbox's frames (need some spacing), Dash grab/shieldgrab (same).
More risked but you can SH Bair (and mindgame with second Bair or go back of Charizard for Nair autocancel (and combo him or grab him if he's shielding))

edit : I forgot Dash attack...

 

[GodAtHand]

You can space for the hit. If you know how far his tilts go just sit right at the range where you will be able to stutter step a Fsmash and hit him during his attack. Often times if you trade hits with a fsmash they will go behind you, if you follow that correctly its usually an upsmash or dash attack. With Charizard I recommend being aggressive after you get a hit, more often than not try to follow up since he is larger and not too fast.

 

[-Mars-]

I think Zard does pretty well against Zelda. I think it's pretty close to even......he's fast as hell on the ground and his grab is amazing. His flamethrower is like a really good zoning tool in this MU. I haven't played any good ones though so i'm not really sure.

 

[MrEh]

How do people deal with his ftilt and dtilt? I find they can trade a lot wth Zelda and she ends up getting the worst end of the trade.

Dtilt will be used for surprise kills. It shouldn't be trading a lot because it will not be spammed.


Just be patient and don't overexert yourself. Getting grabbed by Zard is easy.

 

[MaTA]

watch out for flamethrowers. it'll outrange a lot of zeldas attacks, even if you neutral b a lot of the times it wont reach back and its pretty much a free grab and charizard can **** zelda once you get some grabs. dont ever jump out of a bthrow by zard cause getting fair of the edge is pretty much death if your playing with a good PT.

Her smashes are a good way of keeping him at bay.

 

[AzNfinesse]

Personally, charizard is my easiest of the 3 pokemon just because of his size. Yes, I realize his rock smash is extremely powerful with a long range and ability to gimp every single one of zelda's approaches, but that's y you don't approach. Force charizard to approach with din's fire pressure and some farore's mindgames.

How do people deal with his ftilt and dtilt? I find they can trade a lot wth Zelda and she ends up getting the worst end of the trade.

the way i deal with ftilt and dtilt is one of 2 ways: perfect shield > grab > dthrow > hyphen usmash, or take the hit and punish afterwards. Especially after the ftilt, there is some lag inbetween so you can follow up with a din's or some kind of approach to mindgame him into putting his shield up. Sometimes, especially against characters that have attacks that outrange zelda, it's best to take the hit and follow up from there. just be sure you know what you're doing and don't do anything stupid.

This is definitely 55-45 charizard, but charizard doesn't completely destroy zelda because zelda is much more mobile than he is, and charizard's recovery is easy to read and simple to gimp.

 

[zeldspazz]

What attacks are safe on block against Zard's big grab range? Im guessing Fsmash but even then when I misspace it Zard grabs me.

Also gimping Zard isnt as hard as other characters. His jump height iirc correctly isnt too great, his glide is mad slow, and his upb his subpar horizontal gain. If you get him offstage LKs should be too difficult Id imagine due to his huge size. Spikes might even work if youre comfortable with them.

 

[AzNfinesse]

What attacks are safe on block against Zard's big grab range? Im guessing Fsmash but even then when I misspace it Zard grabs me.

jab is EXCELLENT against zar from shield. short frames with the same range as fsmash, but nowhere near as easily punishable. if for some odd reason you miss jab, then follow with a dsmash.

 

[zeldspazz]

Sexy jab huh? I like.

 

[MrEh]

What attacks are safe on block against Zard's big grab range? Im guessing Fsmash but even then when I misspace it Zard grabs me.

It's wifi dude. There's not much you can do about that.


Predictable defense gets eaten by short hopped Flamethrower. And unlike Bowser's Fire Breath, Flamethrower shoots faster. It's harder to DI into Zard to kick him. Generally, you just have to be patient. Force Zard to approach, never overexert yourself, and just play safe. If you keep getting grabbed, then just...stop attacking his shield.

 

[zeldspazz]

Cool, I didnt know that about Zard's Flamethrower.

 

[MrEh]

Flamethrower is arguably a better damage racking tool then Bowser's Fire Breath since it's much faster, and safer when used at closer ranges. Fire Breath is more of a spacing tool since it is very punishable up close.

Similar moves, but very different.

 

[zeldspazz]

I always figured its cooldown lag was pretty garb though, but I never actually looked at the frame data.

 

[Zigsta]

Just to clarify an earlier post, Charizard's dthrow isn't a KO move. It's incredibly easy to DI, making it pretty much useless until 200% or so. If a Charizard does us it, he's either A) a newb B) testing to see if you're a newb or C) trying to force you into a spot in the air that his other throws cannot. Most Charizards just fthrow or bthrow.

As far as other points in the matchup, I'm afraid I really can't comment very well. I play against a Zelda main often, but he's very, very, very bad. I can say though, that Charizard does worse than Squirtle but better than Ivysaur.

Also about countering Charizard's dtilt and ftilt, like Mr. Eh said, dtilt will be saved for a KO and won't ever be spammed. Ftilt can KO, but not as well as dtilt. Ftilt comes out much slower and is easily shielded if you're used to the MU. Good Charizards will use that as a mix-up attack when you're trying to recover.

 

[AzNfinesse]

Just to clarify an earlier post, Charizard's dthrow isn't a KO move. It's incredibly easy to DI, making it pretty much useless until 200% or so. If a Charizard does us it, he's either A) a newb B) testing to see if you're a newb or C) trying to force you into a spot in the air that his other throws cannot. Most Charizards just fthrow or bthrow.

As far as other points in the matchup, I'm afraid I really can't comment very well. I play against a Zelda main often, but he's very, very, very bad. I can say though, that Charizard does worse than Squirtle but better than Ivysaur.

Also about countering Charizard's dtilt and ftilt, like Mr. Eh said, dtilt will be saved for a KO and won't ever be spammed. Ftilt can KO, but not as well as dtilt. Ftilt comes out much slower and is easily shielded if you're used to the MU. Good Charizards will use that as a mix-up attack when you're trying to recover.

hmm...didn't know that about dtilt. VERY good to know.