Matchup Discussion: Snake

[Calebyte]

We should do Fox next. Fox mains have been popping up everywhere recently.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Make a thread and I'll put up what I know about the matchup

 

[Inferno3044]

You want me to make a new MU thread?

 

[Calebyte]

A Fox thread? Do it nao!

 

[Inferno3044]

A big MU thread in general.

 

[Calebyte]

I kinda like the idea of separate threads for each MU. Also: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=268539

 

[DtJ SquidBurrMoneyBurr]

Marios be crazy with their match ups and what nots

 

[steep]

Hey one thing that I haven't seen anyone talk about: Cape **** on grenade mistakes. I see a lot of snakes not being careful with their nades and then letting them explode and hit them. While not a strategy that I would suggest using all the time, else you will be being predictable, if the opportunity arises, cape that sucka.

One time I was playing a friend of mine on Corneria and he shield-dropped a grenade, so I pressured him and didn't let him move, until he mistimed a dodge, and right as the grenade exploded and hit him, i caped him, killing him off the top of the stage at 21%. While this is a ridiculous scenario, I have killed snakes with cape **** off of the lava on Brinstar/Norfair at under 100% a few times. I think it's something to consider when playing this MU.

P.S. I am not sure if Cape **** is the correct term here, since I know that the term is also used for caping MK's dimensional cape. But it's where you cape 'em and their momentum increases by a lot in the direction they are traveling.

 

[Inferno3044]

Hey one thing that I haven't seen anyone talk about: Cape **** on grenade mistakes. I see a lot of snakes not being careful with their nades and then letting them explode and hit them. While not a strategy that I would suggest using all the time, else you will be being predictable, if the opportunity arises, cape that sucka.

One time I was playing a friend of mine on Corneria and he shield-dropped a grenade, so I pressured him and didn't let him move, until he mistimed a dodge, and right as the grenade exploded and hit him, i caped him, killing him off the top of the stage at 21%. While this is a ridiculous scenario, I have killed snakes with cape **** off of the lava on Brinstar/Norfair at under 100% a few times. I think it's something to consider when playing this MU.

P.S. I am not sure if Cape **** is the correct term here, since I know that the term is also used for caping MK's dimensional cape. But it's where you cape 'em and their momentum increases by a lot in the direction they are traveling.

Cape **** is the correct term, but it's not applicable at all while talking about MUs. Good Snakes won't be making many mistakes like that if at all. Corneria has an extremely low ceiling which is probably why Snake died at such a low percent. Using cape **** when they hit the acid/lava on the Metroid stages is good if the opportunity actually comes up.

Just a bit of advice bwolfe when talking about MUs: It's not always the best idea to bring up extremely situational things that will rarely apply in tournament if ever. You want to talk about more applicable strategies.

 

[steep]

Just a bit of advice bwolfe when talking about MUs: It's not always the best idea to bring up extremely situational things that will rarely apply in tournament if ever. You want to talk about more applicable strategies.

Ok thanks for the advice Inferno! I am new to this whole MU discussion thing.

 

[Inferno3044]

Ok thanks for the advice Inferno! I am new to this whole MU discussion thing.

Any time. I've made the same mistakes when I first talked about MUs.

 

[Matador]

Im willing.

Dude, Snake is heavy as ****...whenever I manage to get a little momentum, it doesnt really even matter since I die a good 30% earlier than he does...assuming Im landing Fsmash like I want.

How do I kill this ****er?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You don't

 

[Jimmyfosho]

You hope he blows himself up

 

[vato_break]

Conditioning, man.

 

[Inferno3044]

Im willing.

Dude, Snake is heavy as ****...whenever I manage to get a little momentum, it doesnt really even matter since I die a good 30% earlier than he does...assuming Im landing Fsmash like I want.

How do I kill this ****er?

It's annoying as ****. I remember I used to just throw fireballs, run and punish his mistakes but it's been so long since I played a Snake I forgot how to do it .

It sucks that I have to end up being inactive. Also Matador, come to Brawl in the Streetz. I will be there.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Im willing.

Dude, Snake is heavy as ****...whenever I manage to get a little momentum, it doesnt really even matter since I die a good 30% earlier than he does...assuming Im landing Fsmash like I want.

How do I kill this ****er?

Snake is EASY to kill.

You just have to wait til like 155% on most stages (135 or so on small ceilings, which are by far more useful for you than they are for Snake). D-smash and U-smash are REALLY easy to set up on him. Make sure at least one of those is fresh against him when that kill range comes.

You can Jab cancel D-smash Snake off Jab2. You have exactly a 5 frame advantage on Snake for landing Jab2 sweetspot on Snake when he's grounded. 7 frame advantage if you land both Jab sweetspots. Depending on how close you are to Snake (which I believe depends on Snake's F-tilt being stale), it's also possible to D-smash Snake out of shield when he F-tilts your shield. Learn to observe when this opening happens.

Setting up U-smash on Snake is as simple as staying below him. Be mindful of his B-reversal tricks when juggling him, since he'll inevitably turn to that when he's in trouble.

Don't try to rely on F-smash for kills against Snake. I'm not saying F-smash is useless against him (on the contrary, it's quite useful against him). It's just not easy enough to land consistently when you need it. It's worth knowing that you can F-smash out of shield against Snake's ledge attack though.

The character I find hardest to kill is a well-played Falco personally. He is kinda light and if he screws up badly enough you can do silly things to his recovery, but he's also one of the hardest characters for Mario to juggle, and Jab cancel combos don't really work on him very well. His insane ground attacks including his F-smash which has MORE RANGE than yours don't help either.

 

[Calebyte]

I like fighting Snake personally, as long as I can keep the pressure on and prevent him from gaining stage control it's pretty fun. The MU would be near-even if Snake wasn't so heavy. I usually keep dsmash or usmash fresh like A2Z suggests. Still a tough MU though.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Snake is EASY to kill.

[...]

D-smash and U-smash are REALLY easy to set up on him.

Not against good players.

The MU would be near-even if Snake wasn't so heavy.

I profoundly disagree.

There is a reason Mario is bad at killing, guys. It's because Mario's kill moves are all grounded and are very hard to set-up against an airborne opponent who knows how to play against Mario. You can say "condition him" as much as you like but there's not much to condition when it's a known fact that from 120% on Snake is free to spam his shield. Our throws never kill, our aerials never kill and by the time Usmash could kill him our throws don't set up **** anymore.

You land fsmash on a whiffed move [typically shield grab] or a spot dodge read and you land usmash on an airdodge, landing, roll or spotdodge read. I dare you to do any of this against a Snake that's not stupidly easy to bait - the landing read is the only thing where you have a realistic chance to score.

 

[fromundaman]

I half agree with you Gheb.
Fsmash can be used to beat 1st hit Ftilt if you predict it, but realistically speaking, Fsmash is not how you kill in this MU.

The sad truth is most of our kills on Snake will come after the 150% mark unless you can get a gimp, at which point our throws actually ARE useful because they get him offstage. At that point, he can either try to recover low/medium height, where our aerials WILL kill, or recover high, where we can punish landings with Usmash. Recovering high is the best option for Snake since he has mixups to get back to the ground, but if you can punish his landings, it's pretty much a kill every time.
That being said, that's still at kind of stupid high %s, and he kills way earlier. I feel the MU would be even if we could kill him at anywhere near the same % he kills us. Sadly, that rarely happens, and the MU pretty much feels like we have 3 stocks to his 4 or 5.

Oh, and near kill %s, try to use fireballs in such a way that he won't powershield him so that you can diminish his shield and hopefully poke with something like Nair or Dsmash.

 

[Calebyte]

I profoundly disagree.

There is a reason Mario is bad at killing, guys. It's because Mario's kill moves are all grounded and are very hard to set-up against an airborne opponent who knows how to play against Mario. You can say "condition him" as much as you like but there's not much to condition when it's a known fact that from 120% on Snake is free to spam his shield. Our throws never kill, our aerials never kill and by the time Usmash could kill him our throws don't set up **** anymore.

You land fsmash on a whiffed move [typically shield grab] or a spot dodge read and you land usmash on an airdodge, landing, roll or spotdodge read. I dare you to do any of this against a Snake that's not stupidly easy to bait - the landing read is the only thing where you have a realistic chance to score.

Dude, Snake's weight-class is what makes him so good. Do you really think he would be top-tier if he was in the same weight-class as his fellow humans?

As far as I'm concerned, Snake can spam his shield all he wants at high %'s. What? Our grabs aren't setting things up anymore? Throw that ****** off stage. Recovering low? Free bair spike. Recovering high? He's gotta come down sometime. Read the landing, grab, repeat.

Not saying this MU is easy or even, but definitely winnable.

 

[Inferno3044]

It is winnable, but you have to remember that Snake's weight alone doesn't make him top tier. Snake has amazing stats. Power, weight, range, ground game, and recovery are all amazing. The only stat of his that's bad is his air game. If snake was upper mid weight or even mid weight, he would still be high tier.

 

[mars16]

I think its his Utilt that get the most work done

 

[A2ZOMG]

There is a reason Mario is bad at killing, guys. It's because Mario's kill moves are all grounded and are very hard to set-up against an airborne opponent who knows how to play against Mario. You can say "condition him" as much as you like but there's not much to condition when it's a known fact that from 120% on Snake is free to spam his shield. Our throws never kill, our aerials never kill and by the time Usmash could kill him our throws don't set up **** anymore.

B-throw kills. Mario players just need to be smarter with it. I kill with B-throw quite consistently when I need it to. Anytime I see a Mario player let a Snake survive to 220% and above because he staled B-throw, I cringe.

And Snake spamming shield isn't that free at that percent range. If you have been using D-throw on him consistently, it's still going to set up 2 hit juggles that he has a reason to avoid getting hit by. And whether or not you're trying to kill him, Snake HATES being above anyone.

And plus, I really don't think Mario is any worse at landing kill moves than most characters. He has Jab setups into D-smash (and grab). B-throw can be used as a high percent KO move when fresh. U-smash covers juggles. F-smash covers mid range baits. There isn't a single matchup where you can't pull off any one of those moves at some point. Really the main problem Mario has is that his damage output sucks. On average Mario's hits tend to do like 7-10%. This means you have to work excessively hard to actually get people to any given KO percent. This is also why low ceilings are a GODSEND for Mario.

You land fsmash on a whiffed move [typically shield grab] or a spot dodge read and you land usmash on an airdodge, landing, roll or spotdodge read. I dare you to do any of this against a Snake that's not stupidly easy to bait - the landing read is the only thing where you have a realistic chance to score.

The landing read however is REALLY easy to do against Snake due to his bad mobility and aerial game. Yeah he can B reversal and get cheeky here and there, but you're going to kill him eventually if you keep him above you.

@Inferno: Snake as a midweight would be upper mid tier at best. Practically the entire high tier and top tier cast would beat Snake 6/4 due to killing him at normal percent ranges MUCH more easily than Snake can back to them. Mario vs Snake would probably be 50/50 in fact, and Mario's favor on Halberd/Brinstar. Snake would basically be ROB status. He has a lot of good moves and some fairly gay tactics, but he's too limited and weak in many areas to actually be amazing. Snake's weight class IS the reason why he's top tier. It changes the way the risk reward game is supposed to work.

 

[Inferno3044]

Most jab cancel's with Mario aren't guaranteed.

I seriously don't think it's just Snake's weight that makes him good. To have been placed #2 on the tier list consecutively it's gotta be more than one thing. Yes he would be worse if he was lighter. It's saying "if you make this thing about character X worse, they will be a worse character." Duh. If really weight is all Snake had then he wouldn't be top tier. If it was everything, then DK should be higher than Snake because he is heavier, can live longer, and has a better air game. Yes it's the icing on the cake, but there's more.

@A2 - Mario really isn't that good at killing. His kill moves are fairly easy to see coming assuming you know the MU. His range also lack so he has to be really close to kill people except with Fsmash which is pretty telegraphed.

 

[fromundaman]

Woah, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that his weight is the only thing that makes him good. He has way too many good attributes for that (I mean ****, look at the risk vs reward on his moves!). I'm just saying his weight, more than anything else IMO, is what makes his MU with Mario difficult for Mario, with Ftilt in close 2nd.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It's also the fact that his damage output makes Mario's look pathetic.
And that he kills us like 80% earlier, has an amazing kill set-up and kill us from like any position
And that it's not only overly hard to approach him but also that you're under pressure even from 3/4 of the stage away.

LOL @ Bthrow killing. The fact that you even have to mention "surviving to 220%" goes to show how little we can do to kill him. And landing reads are much harder to do than you think. It's hard enough to actually put Snake in a position from where you can read his landing in the first place.

 

[Omari]

May we stay on topic? Why Snake is a top character in brawl isn't our focus. Our focus is how can we defeat experienced Snakes at high level game-play (offline tournaments/or events mainly) as Mario? From using the info discussed early on in this thread (fused with my own knowledge & experience), I'll post effective techniques on how to combat Snake effectively as Mario soon.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's also the fact that his damage output makes Mario's look pathetic.
And that he kills us like 80% earlier, has an amazing kill set-up and kill us from like any position
And that it's not only overly hard to approach him but also that you're under pressure even from 3/4 of the stage away.

LOL @ Bthrow killing. The fact that you even have to mention "surviving to 220%" goes to show how little we can do to kill him. And landing reads are much harder to do than you think. It's hard enough to actually put Snake in a position from where you can read his landing in the first place.

Keep in mind, getting Snake to 200% does not imply that landing the kill move was hard, or that the Mario was being dominated. It may just be a matter of playstyle. I see plenty of Mario users who have no trouble maintaining momentum on Snake for massive damage, but when they make a bad move choice like using B-throw to get Snake offstage, when that throw is better saved for high percent KOs, I have issues here. Similarly I have issues when Mario users stale BOTH D-smash and U-smash unnecessarily. Mario has more than enough options to avoid problems with stale moves and keep his KOs reliable in this matchup.

Usually when I see a Mario user do bad in this matchup, it's either two things:

1. Poor general gameplay, which gets ***** by Snake's general design
2. Suboptimal move choices for dealing damage, which gets ***** by stale moves

Realistically, Mario has no trouble viably picking Snake apart. It's actually pretty easy for Mario and most characters to approach Snake and get in his comfort zone. The matchup is disadvantageous only because he has to work harder to bring Snake to KO damage.

 

[MP8]

The fireballs don't blow up the granades on contact, do they? That would be pretty cool if they did. On a side note, I wish Mario's fireballs moved as quick as they do in his games like Super Mario Bros. That would turn many things around in this game, in my opinion.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

I remembering someone mentioning exactly that a while back...

 

[Matador]

His weight is a huge reason why he's as high on the tier list as he is. All of his amazing traits (of which, he has many) are amplified due to the inability to kill the *****.

All the while, he has an extremely easy time killing most characters...and kills them at very low percentages in comparison.

There's no doubt in my mind that this would be an even match-up if Mario could kill Snake at reasonable percentages. Dair and Utilt are so effective against him for racking damage.

 

[vato_break]

Just gimp snake ? lol it's not hard just read his jump/look for his offstage patterns or even go for the old grab pummel and the ledge and then you got this!

ftilt/jab combo/and fludd **** in this matchup! use them :]

 

[A2ZOMG]

His weight is a huge reason why he's as high on the tier list as he is. All of his amazing traits (of which, he has many) are amplified due to the inability to kill the *****.

All the while, he has an extremely easy time killing most characters...and kills them at very low percentages in comparison.

There's no doubt in my mind that this would be an even match-up if Mario could kill Snake at reasonable percentages. Dair and Utilt are so effective against him for racking damage.

Pretty much all this. On top of the fact Mario would actually beat Snake on low ceiling stages if Mario's KO power or damage per hit was stronger, though Snake would probably still have slight advantage on BF.

Also Vato's advice on Snake is also pretty legit. Ground releasing Snake over the edge is extremely good and a pretty good way of either potentially gimping Snake or forcing him to use C4.

And as unfairly good Snake's F-tilt is, you can't underestimate how useful your own F-tilt is against him. There is a viable chance that he will fail to DI it optimally, which then essentially guarantees a mostly free F-air on his recovery if you get him offstage with F-tilt. Even if he somehow survives it, just landing it does respectable damage and in turn can indirectly open up more options to KO him.

The fireballs don't blow up the granades on contact, do they? That would be pretty cool if they did. On a side note, I wish Mario's fireballs moved as quick as they do in his games like Super Mario Bros. That would turn many things around in this game, in my opinion.

Fireballs will blow up stationary grenades. Grenades that Snake just tossed however will clash with fireballs without exploding. Keep in mind that it's possible to Cape Grenades, although it's best done with reverse Capes. Hitting the grenade with your Cape iirc might cause the grenade to clash and go nowhere, and of course, if the grenade is stationary, it explodes. What's REALLY awesome about reflecting a grenade back to Snake is that if he gets hit by the explosion (which is beefed up due to the properties of reflecting projectiles), it kills RETARDEDLY early. Like...Snake U-tilt retardedly early. Obviously don't kill yourself trying to do this.

Also I'd rather not have fireballs move faster in Brawl. I'd rather they move slower, or Mario's horizontal mobility was increased. Then we'd have a REALLY broken character to main.

 

[Omari]

RESETS!

Don't forget that Mario has excellent reset abilities. SJP OoS without releasing you shield to reset your stale moves (knocks stale moves down six spot if effectively hit) & place your opponent(s) in the air which generally speaking is a bad position to begin with. D-air OoS without releasing your shield to reset your stale moves & start combos/strings/juggles/baits (yes you can bait with d-air)/mind games etc. Like Matador (KM) & A2ZOMG said, you can use utilize your PPK (Punch, Punch Kick combo) to reset damage (only half (three) the spots as SJP & d-air but very worth it) on stale moves.

How to bait with d-air (effectively):

Many Mario mains (when they short hop d-air for example) follow up with u-air (because not only is it true on certain characters, but because it covers everything). If you SH d-air>u-air them & they get hit, they can break out (if you don't retreat when necessary). You want to take as little damage as possible (yes, with Mario too) when attempting to combo/string/juggle (whatever). If they air dodge, sure you'll miss the first hit but then after you punish them (with whatever air you like), they'll still break free. Ask yourself, how can I effectively approach with d-air (don't limit yourself) without taking damage?

Short Hop D-air (fast fall at apex)>Charge Up Smash, Hyphen Up Smash or BDACUS depending on their DI from d-air (to cover air dodge, attack (due to Mario's hat priority) & them free falling (since you control how long the smash is charged)>U-tilt (because they can't attack right after your headbutt due to hit stun)>grab (pivot grab to be extra safe or you can block towards them to bait their attack (again) then shield grab>Few pummels then either u-throw or f-throw them for positioning>Anything.

Examples like this do wonders on Snake because he's most likely to N-air, d-air or sometimes b-air Mario for spacing (to regain stage control) but once Mario's inside Snake's personal space...don't get out. Keep in his face then bait him (most likely empty jumps since you'll be struggling with him while he's airborne).

Working on more information for this MU. BRB later.

 

[Matador]

Also...and this applies to MK too...don't try to camp with fireballs. If you're going to camp, do it just outside of his range where you can space aerials and ftilt if he tries to retake the position (retreating OR advancing toward you).

From this range, you can gauge when mix-ups will be appropriate (empty jumps into grab...something like that), you can control their aerial approaches with our anti-air attacks, punish mis-spaced attacks, and you can use this position to simply find the opportunity to get inside or land Fsmash.

The problem with running away and camping with fireballs, and I've been saying this since '08, is that running and powershielding counters that strategy. It absolutely ***** it, actually. Fireballing has huge ending lag and provides tiny hitstun. This means that if you're SH/FH fireballing, then one could just run in, powershield your fireball, then punish you while you're still in the air. Not only that, but some chracters can do it from damn-near fullscreen because they have aerials that reliably hit through fireballs.

Marth's Fair, G&W's everything, Peach's Fair, ZSS's aerials, MK's Nado...all they have to do is powershield our slow-moving fireballs, and/or swat through our fireballs and punish us during the ending lag.

The way to camp with Mario is what I outlined above...there's more to it, but that's the general idea. This running away and fireballing nonsense from practically fullscreen needs to stop. It doesn't work if the opponent has any idea how fireballs work. Hell, D3 gets the bulk of his grabs vs Mario this way and most characters outcamp Mario from fullscreen anyway.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Camping Snake doesn't work period unless you're holding a stock lead. And holding a stock lead is easiest on stages with a lot of platforms like BF...which unfortunately are not the stages you usually want to take Snake to given that Snake is significantly harder to kill on stages with a lot of conveniently spaced platforms.

Fireballs however are good zoning tools against him. Actually camping Snake with fireballs however is pointlessly risky since his grenades heavily outdamage fireballs.

 

[Inferno3044]

Camping Snake doesn't work period unless you're holding a stock lead. And holding a stock lead is easiest on stages with a lot of platforms like BF...which unfortunately are not the stages you usually want to take Snake to given that Snake is significantly harder to kill on stages with a lot of conveniently spaced platforms.

Fireballs however are good zoning tools against him. Actually camping Snake with fireballs however is pointlessly risky since his grenades heavily outdamage fireballs.

If you're still bringing up what I said, the reason Mario can outcamp Snake at least is that Mario's rate of fire is much better than Snake's. We can keep shooting fireballs while Snake is limited to having 2 grenades which have a 3 second detonation time assuming they aren't hit. Mario. Fireballs end on frame 43. 180 (how long a grenade lasts assuming it doesn't get hit)/43 = 4.19. This means by the time Snake can pull out his 3rd grenade, Mario will be shooting his 5th fireball. That's a big difference. My point is Mario can camp fairly decently against campy Snakes. Eventually you force him to make a mistake and you do what you say to do, which is just combo him because it's free.

 

[Matador]

It takes 3 fireballs to do the dmg of one grenade. That's assuming it doesn't hit you when he throws it. Mario can camp Snake, but not harder than vice versa.

Cypher and mortar slide offer him alot more stage control as well...and he he has more than one projectile. He can also be difficult to approach if he reads you. All of these things help with camping.

We have fireballs...slow moving and low dmg. And we have Fludd which is used more defensively onstage than anything. He can powershield or normal shield our fireballs and render them useless. Powershielding or normal shielding his grenades doesn't do much of anything unless you're waiting for them to detonate.

I have to disagree with Mario being able to camp Snake anywhere near as much as Snake can camp Mario. This is all while ignoring the big reason...which is the weight difference. He only needs a few grenades to detonate on us before he can kill. We need an unreasonable amount of fireballs to do the same.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Make that 4 fireballs for grenades that both hit and explode upon you.

It gets more complicated when his grenades are actually colliding with your fireballs, which negates them.

Also fireballs do NOT end on frame 43 unless you are doing grounded fireballs. It takes 49 frames to complete a SH Fireball.

180/49 = 3.67. So yeah basically if you shot your first fireball the instant Snake pulled his first grenade, you would finish 3 fireballs by the time Snake was allowed to pull his third grenade. Now tell me again how Mario outcamps Snake. 1 grenade is 14% fresh, 2% extra if it hits you. 3 fireballs from Mario is only 13%, and keep in mind that Snake can have 2 grenades active during the entire time you're shooting 3 fireballs. So in actuality he's able to do like 27% or so with his grenades in the time you are able to do 13% just shooting fireballs.

Like maybe the only time your figure even comes into play is on Smashville, but the probability Snake is actually going to let himself get hit by fireball camping from there is pretty low unless his shield was low beforehand.

Generally what Mario wants to do is shoot one WELL SPACED fireball and put everything into committing to an approach backed by that one fireball. The goal is to basically grab Snake and get him above you/offstage where he can't continue to camp with explosives/tilts