Match Ups

[mario brawler]

to lazy to explain why right now but im goin with slight advantage in mario's favor for now

 

[BoTastic!]

Dsmash becomes predictable when overused and even be smash DI'd out of with enough practice. But it is a bit of a problem but it isn't huge.

 

[mario brawler]

I just fought a really good pika player...im weaving more to 5-5 now...
I don't understand why pika's d-smash had to get so much better

 

[Ussi]

Pika's don't really rely on down smash as a good move. Its more a get out of my space move. Smart pikas use utilt > uair for combos,. Jumping away thunder (to avoid being hit by a reflected one). Pika kills with fsmash and nair as well. Pika's fair has great priority too and is a big combo starter for pikachu.

Just noting

 

[bobson]

I have some experience fighting Pikachu, so I'll give my input.

Fireball isn't for spamming, so of course it'd be better. We can deal with his better than he can deal with ours.

I'd say they're about equal. Pikachu can't reflect our fireballs, but his bolts last longer and have a larger range. Fun glitch: cape a bolt right as it's traveling to the underside of the stage, and it'll mistake you for the stage and start circling you as if you were a block in the sky.

Not particularly difficult to fight in the air if you use the right aerials, and not difficult to gimp. Fludd slows his recovery and cape screws it. It's about average difficulty imo.

Skull Bash gets him back from far distances before you're in gimping range and Quick Attack is very hard to predict when used well. The cape will wreck either of those, but you're going to have a hell of a time landing it against a good opponent. FLUDD works minorly well, but not enough to have a good chance of gimping him.

He also has his QA lock, but I'm not sure if Mario can be CG'd by Pika.

Mario can react before Pikachu can regrab him, so no.

Thunder isn't nearly as much of a problem for us as it is for most other characters since we can make thunder attack Pika if caped while coming down. Also, if you cape Thunder as it hits Pika, you do a ton of damage.

Thunder can be used to reverse Pikachu's aerial momentum immediately, so you'll probably only land a caped Thunder once if at all.

Pikachu´s down smash really hurts Mario, because it comes out fast and has surprisingly long reach while Mario has short.

Dsmash isn't as much of a problem as you'd expect. It's annoying, but you can smash DI out of it and it's easy enough to counter that they can't use it too often.

Pikachu´s killing moves aren´t that great against Mario: F-smash is slow and Thunder can often be reflected or avoided via DI.

Pika's fsmash is as fast as ours, is more powerful, has a larger range (although our pivot fsmash might be larger), and is a disjointed hitbox. It has slightly more ending lag, but not enough to make it too dangerous to use.

Pikachu's electricity-reliant attacks have more priority than most of ours, but at the cost of being ever-so-slightly slower. He can mostly match Mario in the air and on the ground, and can edgeguard Mario better than Mario can edgeguard him thanks to Mario's mediocre recovery. Uthrow to Thunder at high percents is a favorite. He also beats all Mario's alt colors with his awesome goggles. In our favor, we can use aerial combos better, and we're harder to kill due to our weight.

I'd set the matchup at about even, maybe with a slight advantage in Pikachu's favor.

 

[Matador]

I have some experience fighting Pikachu, so I'll give my input.

Much appreciated

I'd say they're about equal. Pikachu can't reflect our fireballs, but his bolts last longer and have a larger range.

I figure since he can't deal with our projectile but we can deal with his by sending it back at him, it'd give us the advantage in this department.

Skull Bash gets him back from far distances before you're in gimping range and Quick Attack is very hard to predict when used well. The cape will wreck either of those, but you're going to have a hell of a time landing it against a good opponent. FLUDD works minorly well, but not enough to have a good chance of gimping him.

More often than not, you can't reach a Pika charging a skullbash during recovery, but if you're close enough to Fludd, it reduces distance to 0 and makes the recovery that much more predictable.

You can only really gimp Pika's upB if you're lucky or you just read your opponent that well. Still, cape works here even if very situational.

Mario can react before Pikachu can regrab him, so no.

Excellent...we don't need another one of those.

Thunder can be used to reverse Pikachu's aerial momentum immediately, so you'll probably only land a caped Thunder once if at all.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. Still, even though actually hitting Pika with it isn't an option, you still prevent yourself from taking damage and being KO'd over the top when you can't DI out of the way fast enough.

Something I sort of carried over from Melee: when you're in the tumbling animation like after you're smashed or something of that nature, if you rapidly move your control stick from left to right, you quickly regain control of your character. It was much more important in melee because you only had one airdodge and you had options like wavelanding and whatnot, but in this matchup it's particularly important because it helps you regain control of Mario when knocked vertically; giving you the opportunity to cape quicker and protect yourself from Thunder.

Dsmash isn't as much of a problem as you'd expect. It's annoying, but you can smash DI out of it and it's easy enough to counter that they can't use it too often.

Agreed, even though it's still gay.

Pika's fsmash is as fast as ours, is more powerful, has a larger range (although our pivot fsmash might be larger), and is a disjointed hitbox. It has slightly more ending lag, but not enough to make it too dangerous to use.

I don't agree with it being more powerful. I live to 140% easy from Pika's Fsmash with DI, while I can kill other marios with Mario's Fsmash at 100% and sometimes less.

I dunno if it's a sure thing, but whenever I block Pika's Fsmash, I always end up with enough time to land a free Fsmash of my own. This is kinda cool since it's hard to hit a good Pika.

Pikachu's electricity-reliant attacks have more priority than most of ours, but at the cost of being ever-so-slightly slower. He can mostly match Mario in the air and on the ground, and can edgeguard Mario better than Mario can edgeguard him thanks to Mario's mediocre recovery. Uthrow to Thunder at high percents is a favorite. He also beats all Mario's alt colors with his awesome goggles. In our favor, we can use aerial combos better, and we're harder to kill due to our weight.

Agreed, but how does Pika edgeguard outside of thunder?

I'd set the matchup at about even, maybe with a slight advantage in Pikachu's favor.

I'd settle for even, but I dunno about adv Pika. I see it as slight adv Mario, if anything. Our ability to deal with his projectiles better than most, stop his skullbash for recovery, and KO him around 90% is generally my reasoning. Also, Pika can't kill Mario until much higher % unless hit from the edge with Fsmash or caught in thunder.

Either way, it's a close match. It can blow either way.

 

[bobson]

I figure since he can't deal with our projectile but we can deal with his by sending it back at him, it'd give us the advantage in this department.

True, but it's hard to reflect if you're not expecting it, which is usually when it'll be used. I'd say being more damaging, larger, and having more utility make up for it.

More often than not, you can't reach a Pika charging a skullbash during recovery, but if you're close enough to Fludd, it reduces distance to 0 and makes the recovery that much more predictable.

True, but it usually doesn't help much if your opponent knows how to use Quick Attack well.

Yeah, I see what you're saying. Still, even though actually hitting Pika with it isn't an option, you still prevent yourself from taking damage and being KO'd over the top when you can't DI out of the way fast enough.

It may just be the online lag, but for me the timing for caping the thunder is weird. A lot of times I'll try to cape it and take damage anyway while in my cape animation.

I don't agree with it being more powerful. I live to 140% easy from Pika's Fsmash with DI, while I can kill other marios with Mario's Fsmash at 100% and sometimes less.

You're right on this one. I tested it out in training mode, and Pikachu's fsmash kills Mario from the center of FD with no DI at 121%, while Mario's works at 103%. Still, it's got almost the same range as our pivot smash, does more damage, and is a disjointed hitbox. Also notable is Pikachu's nair, which kills at 135% sweetspotted, lower than any of our attacks save usmash and fsmash.

I dunno if it's a sure thing, but whenever I block Pika's Fsmash, I always end up with enough time to land a free Fsmash of my own. This is kinda cool since it's hard to hit a good Pika.

Mario can land a pivoted fsmash before Pikachu can react if he shields Pikachu's fsmash, but Pikachu can do the same to Mario. Also, you bring up something I forgot: Pikachu is faster than Mario. Not by too much, but it definitely helps.

Agreed, but how does Pika edgeguard outside of thunder?

Bolts, thunder, and high-priority aerials. The better ones can sweetspot the ledge with Quick Attack for unexpected edgehogs. It's not enough of an advantage to throw the match in Pikachu's favor, but I'd say he can do it better than Mario can.

I'd settle for even, but I dunno about adv Pika. I see it as slight adv Mario, if anything. Our ability to deal with his projectiles better than most, stop his skullbash for recovery, and KO him around 90% is generally my reasoning. Also, Pika can't kill Mario until much higher % unless hit from the edge with Fsmash or caught in thunder.

Projectiles and Skull Bash aren't really pivotal to Pikachu's game, but the lower kill percents definitely factor in to the matchup. On further consideration, I'd place the matchup at straight even.

 

[Matador]

True, but it's hard to reflect if you're not expecting it, which is usually when it'll be used. I'd say being more damaging, larger, and having more utility make up for it.

Alright, I suppose this is right. All of these things make Pika's neutral B much better for spamming that fireballs.

True, but it usually doesn't help much if your opponent knows how to use Quick Attack well.

If they know how to use quick attack at allXD.

It may just be the online lag, but for me the timing for caping the thunder is weird. A lot of times I'll try to cape it and take damage anyway while in my cape animation.

I spam it. Always works because of the time-frame you have to cape before you're in trouble. I always do that thing to help me regain control whenever knocked vertically by Pika tho. Thunder is probably the most predictable move in the game aside from Fox's usmash. Having a way to deal with it heavily reduces its effectiveness.

You're right on this one. I tested it out in training mode, and Pikachu's fsmash kills Mario from the center of FD with no DI at 121%, while Mario's works at 103%. Still, it's got almost the same range as our pivot smash, does more damage, and is a disjointed hitbox. Also notable is Pikachu's nair, which kills at 135% sweetspotted, lower than any of our attacks save usmash and fsmash.

Mario can land a pivoted fsmash before Pikachu can react if he shields Pikachu's fsmash, but Pikachu can do the same to Mario. Also, you bring up something I forgot: Pikachu is faster than Mario. Not by too much, but it definitely helps.

Much faster with that quick attack cancelling (or whatever it's called) to get him around the stage.

Bolts, thunder, and high-priority aerials. The better ones can sweetspot the ledge with Quick Attack for unexpected edgehogs. It's not enough of an advantage to throw the match in Pikachu's favor, but I'd say he can do it better than Mario can.

Capestalls practically negate bolts and thunder for edgeguards, especially since Mario can use the ending lag to land safely. I've been Quick Attack edgehogged and it's not fun....definitely a gimp option. Which aerials does Pika use to edgeguard? And does Pika have any invincibility frames during Quick Attack?

Projectiles and Skull Bash aren't really pivotal to Pikachu's game, but the lower kill percents definitely factor in to the matchup. On further consideration, I'd place the matchup at straight even.

I suppose I agree, it depends heavily on whether the Mario's on the top of his game. It doesn't take much for Mario to eat a few thunders during recovery or after an Usmash or something to lose a stock. Smash DIing Pika's Dsmash is important as well.

 

[bobson]

If they know how to use quick attack at allXD.

I had to teach a few Pikachus that recovering only with Skull Bash against Mario is a bad idea.

I spam it. Always works because of the time-frame you have to cape before you're in trouble. I always do that thing to help me regain control whenever knocked vertically by Pika tho. Thunder is probably the most predictable move in the game aside from Fox's usmash. Having a way to deal with it heavily reduces its effectiveness.

I spam it, too, but every once in awhile I'll think I've caped it and end up getting hit by it. I recall reversing it on a few occasions by caping Pikachu before the bolt even got near, but that didn't seem to work when I tried it out in training mode.

Capestalls practically negate bolts and thunder for edgeguards, especially since Mario can use the ending lag to land safely. I've been Quick Attack edgehogged and it's not fun....definitely a gimp option.

Caping works well if you're in a position to be caping. If you're trying to recover from below, though, caping is suicidal and his projectiles become a lot more of a pain.

Which aerials does Pika use to edgeguard? And does Pika have any invincibility frames during Quick Attack?

Dair and fair will outprioritize most or all of Mario's aerials, and nair is dangerously powerful when you're trying to get back to the edge. It largely depends on the player, though. I don't know about Quick Attack.

 

[Judge Judy]

I spam it, too, but every once in awhile I'll think I've caped it and end up getting hit by it. I recall reversing it on a few occasions by caping Pikachu before the bolt even got near, but that didn't seem to work when I tried it out in training mode.

It's cause the cape's hitbox isn't totally synced with the animation, there's more startup lag than it seems. I don't know, everything with Mario seems to have to do with timing.

Caping works well if you're in a position to be caping. If you're trying to recover from below, though, caping is suicidal and his projectiles become a lot more of a pain.

How low are we talking about? Mario's Up B gets pretty good vertical distance, plus his Up B goes through most projectiles. You can use the cape twice and still recover.

Dair and fair will outprioritize most or all of Mario's aerials, and nair is dangerously powerful when you're trying to get back to the edge. It largely depends on the player, though. I don't know about Quick Attack.

Yah, me neither. Sometimes they go for aerials, sometimes they go for projectile spam. I think all Pikachus really want to do though is edgehog.

 

[Judge Judy]

Pikachu a neutral match up?

Pikachu has better projectile spam, hard to fight in the air, difficult to gimp, faster, a chaingrab (maybe 2), and then there's his D-Smash and Thunder.

His projectile spam isn't really all that effective against Mario. Gimping Pikachu is largly about setting him up and forcing him to use quick atk near you, which can be caped. Pikachu does not have a true CG on Mario. Dsmash is annoying, but not lethal. Thunder is probally the most predictable and easy to read projectile in the game. The thing Pikachu really has on Mario is speed and priority. Pikachu isn't much faster than Mario but he still has an edge there, he's faster on the ground but his aerials come out a little bit slower than Mario's. Pikachu's prime advantage is his priority, his priority isn't vastly better than Mario's but he does have a lot more disjointed hitboxes.

Edit: opps double post

 

[bobson]

How low are we talking about? Mario's Up B gets pretty good vertical distance, plus his Up B goes through most projectiles. You can use the cape twice and still recover.

Any type of trajectory from which you'd be forced to use your recovery's full potential to get back. It's not exactly a common occurrence, but with Mario's mediocre recovery, it's not rare enough to leave out.

 

[Steel]

hello neighbors, marth boards be discussing mario

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5481233

 

[BoTastic!]

sry vato, my aim, gayed out on me, but here's what needs to be changed:

Snake should be on very hard match ups
Samus is even with Mario
Flaco should be changed to Falco
I also think ganondorf should be moved up to slight adv. He's not as easy as falcon.

and the match up briefings need a lot of cleanup.

 

[vato_break]

yeah sorry man
i forgot about this thread will update today and tomorro.

 

[Matador]

Snake should be on very hard match ups

Dunno, he's never seemed THAT bad to me. Not really that uphill of a battle.

 

[vato_break]

mario counters nade spamming fireballs take care of landmines
fireball stops that sliding upsmash.
i think all snake really has on mario is ftilt, but hey bo is a pro so i guess he would know.

 

[Matt07]

Eh, Snake can give me trouble time to time. Like some are smart at punishing, and I get owned by F tilt. I usually find the battle easier as soon as you get him in the air, you have the advantage, uair, especially owns.

Not to try and get this too de-railed or get off topic (or is this a place for general chat) what do you guys do against Metaknight? I usually spam fireballs, and I SPAM the cape when he's trying to recover. I'm just curious how do you guys approach/play against Metaknights?

 

[Blackbelt]

I don't really have a plan for Metaknights. I just let instinct do what it will.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

With Pikachu, QAC is something to fear. It can be done randomnly, i's very awkward and damaging when he hits you with a follow up attack.. Thankfully i've not seen too many Pikachu's that are decent. I don't see the match in Mario's favor when I compare things move for move, situation vs situation. 65/35 in Pikachu's favor i'd say. But arent too many deadly pikachu's out there. So it is what it is. But it's potentially there.


My plan for metaknight is retreat, fireball like there's no tommorow. Play campily aggresive. Incorporate the use of fludd in mid fight, but very wisely. And hope for the best with landing an attack.

 

[HeroMystic]

Not to try and get this too de-railedor off topic (or is this a place for general chat) what do you guys do against Metaknight? I usually spam fireballs, and I SPAM the cape when he's trying to recover. I'm just curious how do you guys approach/play against Metaknights?

I don't approach. I stay patient, and punish every little thing Metaknight does. Missed an aerial? U-air or B-air. Messed up on D-Smash? D-smash or U-smash for the kill. Preparing for a glide attack? Jump over and B-air off the stage.

Rack up as much damage as possible and then go for the kill. Since MK is light, a fresh Up-Smash does the trick quite easily. I take as little damage as possible and don't take any risks. That also means trying to cape him off-stage since MK outranges Mario in nearly everything.

It's also good to use FLUDD when MK is aggresive. Approach-killing can give you an easy F-Smash KO.

I make it sound easy, but it's not, lol. I play against my friend's MK a lot and this is what I do every time when I'm serious. It's a slow, up-hill battle, but Mario can win with patience.

tl;dr: Punish like a mother ****er. Don't get hit.

 

[Judge Judy]

fireballs are better against MK than the FLUDD cause fireballs go through all of MK's aerials. Also, QAC isn't that hard as long as you know how to deal with it, fireballs, FLUDD, cape etc. Pikachu won't be using QAC too often against Mario because of how badly Mario can punish it with the cape and FLUDD.

 

[BoTastic!]

With Pikachu, QAC is something to fear. It can be done randomnly, i's very awkward and damaging when he hits you with a follow up attack.. Thankfully i've not seen too many Pikachu's that are decent. I don't see the match in Mario's favor when I compare things move for move, situation vs situation. 65/35 in Pikachu's favor i'd say. But arent too many deadly pikachu's out there. So it is what it is. But it's potentially there.

65:35?? You are putting pikachu on marth level. >_> Trust me.. Pikachu is not that hard.

 

[Ray/Boshi]

65:35?? You are putting pikachu on marth level. >_> Trust me.. Pikachu is not that hard.

Maybe it's just me. Pika's sick with it.

 

[Matador]

I'm just curious how do you guys approach/play against Metaknights?

I play him like I'd play G&W. I go for every gimp, every combo, and every bit of damage I can even potentially get; it's that serious. I fullhop my fireballs all the time since they go over tornado and sometimes bring him out, and I don't save my smashes. The most important thing to me vs MK is damaging him at any cost and gimping if I have a remote chance of succeeding. Cape like mad when he's recovering, and expect Dsmash after every attack (even a Dsmash). DONT GET HIT and go in firmly believing you will win. Remember, if it costs you damage, even if it's more damage, as long as you hit MK in return, it's worth it....as long as it isn't significantly more damage, lol.

This is how I fight MK, and what normally works for me.

I haven't fought many good Pikas, so I havent a clue where the matchup is.

 

[Matt07]

Aah, ok thanks for the help guys .

 

[HeroMystic]

DONT GET HIT and go in firmly believing you will win.

Player: *picks MK*
Me: Oh, I'm gonna beat the **** outta you!
Player: O_o
Me: Stay with MK and you're gonna get three stocked, you better counter-pick cause Mario got a 8:2 advantage!
Player: .... *picks someone else*

Ah... if only.

 

[Matador]

Player: *picks MK*
Me: Oh, I'm gonna beat the **** outta you!
Player: O_o
Me: Stay with MK and you're gonna get three stocked, you better counter-pick cause Mario got a 8:2 advantage!
Player: .... *picks someone else*

Ah... if only.

Lmfao. King of Mushroom kingdom > Blue kirby with letter opener.

Speaking of which, SMBZ 7 is out for those who watch it. Mario's broke.

 

[Mario_ 101]

Vato, i don't think mario has that many neutral matchups, i mean srsly. >.> anyway lol. SMBZ7 iz outz? YEZS! thnx matador ive been waiting freaking foreverz for dat to come out and have stopped checking XD

 

[Matt07]

I've seen a few Mario videos on Youtube, and when MK does his Up B, and his going for the glide attack, he uses his Cape, and it reverses him. How come every single time I do it, I get punished for it, .

 

[Matador]

I've seen a few Mario videos on Youtube, and when MK does his Up B, and his going for the glide attack, he uses his Cape, and it reverses him. How come every single time I do it, I get punished for it, .

It has really strict timing. Your spacing has to be near perfect as well when you cape. I always try tho, the reward is certainly worth the risk in this matchup.

 

[Matador]

Vato B...you really need to update and whatnot. DanGR has this thread as our main matchup thread. PM me or something if you need help with info gathering or something.

 

[J-Prep]

good stuff u got going on here vato ill be referring here often when i have troubles =]

 

[Dominic718]

That's weird fighting a marth isn't that hard for me. My brother mains marth and he's pretty good we always play mairo vs marth matches and we seem to be even.

 

[Matt07]

Marth is difficult for Mario, because of his range, that's practically why Marth is so hard. Sure you can get in his range, but he can knock you right back out.

 

[D.mann]

Honestly i dont think that snake is that hard of a match up for mario. One reason is because marios F.L.U.U.D works on snake pretty well, and you can spam him with fire bawls if your scared to approach him.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Honestly i dont think that snake is that hard of a match up for mario. One reason is because marios F.L.U.U.D works on snake pretty well, and you can spam him with fire bawls if your scared to approach him.

But cape is useless in gimping (stupid reappearing cypher...) and he has more range, weight and strenght. Snake can also outcamp you anytime with nades and c4 and almost always stop your approach with u- & f-tilts. Definitely not an easy matchup.

 

[D.mann]

But cape is useless in gimping (stupid reappearing cypher...) and he has more range, weight and strenght. Snake can also outcamp you anytime with nades and c4 and almost always stop your approach with u- & f-tilts. Definitely not an easy matchup.

Well another topic about snake you can argue is the stage your at, Rainbow cruise for instace, i think that Mario has a advantage agenst Snake at that stage, but if you were going by number of stages that goes agenst mario then i guess snake would be the victor. Yet still he can be fludded unlike other top tiers like G&W at the begging frames of his recovery. I would say he is a counter but not a hard counter

 

[HeroMystic]

But cape is useless in gimping (stupid reappearing cypher...)

Not really.

All you have to do is cape him during his second jump. He won't have any momentum to make it back to the stage by the time he uses his Up-B.

 

[Matt07]

Toon Link gives me a hard time I'm starting to notice. I have great issues approaching him (due to rang, z-air, bombs, and arrows.) His aerials always beat mine (his pesky b-air) and he racks up damage on my like craazy. Any suggestions against a Toon Link?