Match-Up Week #20 : Fox

[Blad01]

Week #20 : Fox​

Fox... The leader of the Starfox... Our best friend. He was as good as Falco in Melee, but he's not in Brawl anymore... About the match-up, we have a superior projectile, a chaingrab, a better horizontal recovery, and a few good combos. Still, his ability to combo could become as scaring as our Chaingrab : UTilt juggle at low %, Dair combo at mid/high %. He's also not bad at all at edgueguarding, and we are one of the only chars that can be shine spiked effectively. What is the best way for a bird to beat a fox ?
Discuss !

 

[Teran]

We have a better blaster, unfortunately he has an excellent reflector. Still, cautious lasers are still a good idea.

We have a CG, and due to the fact that he falls mad fast, a followup with a gatling combo is quite effective in my experience, getting him to > 60% if you get it right. Still, like you say, he can combo us hard because we're a fellow fast faller. Watch out for dair to uptilt juggle combos, they hurt, like hell. Remember that a good Fox doesn't usually approach with dair, but punishes you with it, if you see a dair happy Fox, shieldgrab him, Fox really suffers from followups from Falco's throws.

We have a better horizontal recovery, but Fox mixes it up better, we'll find it much harder to gimp him than he will us. He can stall his fall with shine to keep us guessing. We, on the other hand, have to recover straight into the ledge with Phantasm, recover on stage (not a good idea as utilt beats it but on occasion you won't get punished) and Firebird from above into the ledge. If we recover from below with Firebird, prepare to get shine spiked. (Lol Blad )

If you're both in the air, nair will beat out his aerials, and bair will be pretty painful for him too, but you may want to keep it fresh for killing. Luckily for us Fox is one of the lightest characters, so he's not as difficult to kill. Unfortunately for us, we're light too, and Fox has an Usmash that will send you to your death at the early 100%s. Our kill moves are not going to kill until a bit higher, except maybe Fsmash, but don't expect an opening for that too often against an opponent as slippery as Fox.
As much as I don't like to say it, I think the balance of this matchup lies a lot in getting the CG. Land it, and expect the scales to tip heavily in your favour, but if you don't, expect it to be a tough fight.

I say 55/45 to 60/40 Falco. In terms of if they had a dogfight in Arwings, 99/1 Falco, because personally, he prefers the air, and is the best pilot in Star Fox

 

[King Funk]

Fox... The leader of the Starfox... Our best friend. He was as good as Falco in Melee, but he's not in Melee anymore... About the match-up, we have a superior projectile, a chaingrab, a better horizontal recovery, and a few good combos. Still, his ability to combo could become as scaring as our Chaingrab : UTilt juggle at low %, Dair combo at mid/high %. He's also not bad at all at edgueguarding, and we are one of the only chars that can be shine spiked effectively. What is the best way for a bird to beat a fox ?
Discuss !

...........Fix'd.........

 

[Roderick]

Do some SHSL. When I play against my friends fox I do DSDL, but now he starts to reflect as soon as I jump. When I do SHSL he reflect but he sees that I didn't shoot so he stops reflecting and when he does, do a silent laser.

 

[§witch]

What do you mean? Shl and SHDL?

 

[Roderick]

I mean: Short hop single laser him cause when i jump my friend expects a short hop double laser but when he sees i do nothing when i short hop he lets down his reflector, and at the last moment do a single laser. You get it now?

 

[Teran]

I mean: Short hop single laser him cause when i jump my friend expects a short hop double laser but when he sees i do nothing when i short hop he lets down his reflector, and at the last moment do a single laser. You get it now?

The normal abbreviation for that is SHL, Short Hop Laser. SHSL stands for Short Hop Silent Laser.

 

[Roderick]

ow sorry for that
The silent laser is when you time it exactly when you touch the ground and you here no laser sound , right?

 

[Mikey7]

Good Fox players are hard to CG, they will just camp a corner. In this corner they use reflector so Falco has to approach. Being in a corner...gl getting a CG off. Though last tourney I managed to laser to pivot grab and get a full CG off. They come out of camping after 50% though.

Um, not favorable for Falco, overall. Fox is very good at racking up damage, and I think hes underrated. Kills Falco earlier, etc.

 

[Teran]

Good Falcos get grabs, simple as that.

Could we please keep consistency in our posts? Fox can sit in a corner all day with a reflector, big deal, I'll walk up to him and close the gap, in fact, Falco's an arguably better camper, because his lasers outrange Fox's. The matchup isn't exactly an easy win for Falco, but he's definitely not at a disadvantage, he has great ways of penetrating defences.

 

[M@v]

We came up with 6:4 Falco over at the fox boards, but we still have a decent number of people thinking this one is even. Honestly I think the only reason Falco beats fox is the CG. Fox is faster, and can kill better.

Oh and "Better luck next time Falco."

 

[Teran]

We came up with 6:4 Falco over at the fox boards, but we still have a decent number of people thinking this one is even. Honestly I think the only reason Falco beats fox is the CG. Fox is faster, and can kill better.

Oh and "Better luck next time Falco."

Comments in Bold. Yeah pretty much, but it doesn't take away from the advantage as other Fox mains might be insinuating.
Poor Fox, all his **** matches come from Chains: Pika, ZSS, Sheik's tilt lock, Sakurai must have been really offended by him being so high on the Melee Tier List, while his puffball was in the grimy depths of bottom tier.

 

[CELTiiC]

Comments in Bold. Yeah pretty much, but it doesn't take away from the advantage as other Fox mains might be insinuating.
Poor Fox, all his **** matches come from Chains: Pika, ZSS, Sheik's tilt lock, Sakurai must have been really offended by him being so high on the Melee Tier List, while his puffball was in the grimy depths of bottom tier.

Yeah, guess he didn't want Fox as broken in Brawl as in Melee, but he made an extremely large twist with Fox, making him one of the best in Melee to not so great in Brawl. IMO I say this is 55-45 Falco's favor, really only thing saving us is the CG.

 

[M@v]

Comments in Bold. Yeah pretty much, but it doesn't take away from the advantage as other Fox mains might be insinuating.
Poor Fox, all his **** matches come from Chains: Pika, ZSS, Sheik's tilt lock, Sakurai must have been really offended by him being so high on the Melee Tier List, while his puffball was in the grimy depths of bottom tier.

Its really not as bad as it seems. Sheik and pika are the only two you HAVE to CP. Fox has some really good matchups too though(Even with snake, Even with DDD, 55:45 vs R.O.B, Maybe even with Falco?) I guess we will find out about falco huh .

The irony of all this? King DeDeDe, the best chaingrabber in the game, can't CG Fox.

 

[CELTiiC]

Its really not as bad as it seems. Sheik and pika are the only two you HAVE to CP. Fox has some really good matchups too though(Even with snake, Even with DDD, 55:45 vs R.O.B, Maybe even with Falco?) I guess we will find out about falco huh .

The irony of all this? King DeDeDe, the best chaingrabber in the game, can't CG Fox.

lol, I'd say even with Falco or we really only have the you beat 55-45, Fox has a ton better killing potential than Falco(like better U-Smash, faster F-Smash, and I'm pretty sure your D-Smash is better than ours in terms of Knockback) more variety of recoverys and what such. Some of the only things we have are a better projectile and a chain grab really.

 

[Teran]

Its really not as bad as it seems. Sheik and pika are the only two you HAVE to CP. Fox has some really good matchups too though(Even with snake, Even with DDD, 55:45 vs R.O.B, Maybe even with Falco?) I guess we will find out about falco huh .

The irony of all this? King DeDeDe, the best chaingrabber in the game, can't CG Fox.

Lol I know Fox ok, he's my secondary out of Starfox tradition. I fought Falcos as Fox, and trust me, it feels more comfortable the other way around, as Falco doesn't really feel like he's on the back foot, whereas Fox has to be a slippery coward to win this one imo.

Some of the only things we have are a better projectile and a chain grab really.

AND He's a superior pilot.

 

[King Funk]

Speed: Falco < Fox - Well, obviously...
Strength: Falco = Fox - In my opinion, they are pretty balanced in terms of damage dealing.
Weight: Falco > Fox - You don't need a lot of percentage to kick this fox out of the place.
Recovery: Falco < Fox - Even though Falco's phantasm has less start-up lag and is less gimpable than Fox's, Firefox has longer range, and consequently, Fox's horizontal recovery is superior.
Ground: Falco > Fox - Falco has greater range in his attacks. He can also cancel his dash attack with U-Smash, dealing at least 30% at once.
Air: Falco > Fox - Fox's air attacks may be efficient, but they are harder for him to land than for Falco.
Throws: Falco > Fox - The chaingrab...
Smashes: Falco < Fox - Fox's U-Smash is simply devastating and may K.O Falco at early 100%. His other smashes are also more powerful.
Laser: Falco > Fox - Falco's lasers are way better than Fox and allow SHL for spacing and opportunities.
Reflector: Falco = Fox - Very debatable. Falco's shine has a great use for spacing, and Fox's covers his back and may be used for edgeguarding.
Taunts: Falco > Fox - Fox's taunts are just plain simple and uninteresting, as Falco's taunts are full of arrogant verbal ownage.
Piloting: Falco >>> Fox

Result: 60-40 for Falco

 

[M@v]

Fox's airgame and reflector are definitely better than falco...

This is what it is with the spacies:

Falco, balanced air and ground game
Wolf, best ground game
Fox, Best air game.

 

[CELTiiC]

Speed: Falco < Fox - Well, obviously...
Strength: Falco < Fox - In my opinion, they are pretty balanced in terms of damage dealing.
Weight: Falco > Fox - You don't need a lot of percentage to kick this fox out of the place.
Recovery: Falco < Fox - Even though Falco's phantasm has less start-up lag and is less gimpable than Fox's, Firefox has longer range, and consequently, Fox's horizontal recovery is superior.
Ground: Falco > Fox - Falco has greater range in his attacks. He can also cancel his dash attack with U-Smash, dealing at least 30% at once.
Air: Falco < Fox - Fox's air attacks may be efficient, but they are harder for him to land than for Falco.
Throws: Falco > Fox - The chaingrab...
Smashes: Falco < Fox - Fox's U-Smash is simply devastating and may K.O Falco at early 100%. His other smashes are also more powerful.
Laser: Falco > Fox - Falco's lasers are way better than Fox and allow SHL for spacing and opportunities.
Reflector: Falco < Fox - Very debatable. Falco's shine has a great use for spacing, and Fox's covers his back and may be used for edgeguarding.
Taunts: Falco > Fox - Fox's taunts are just plain simple and uninteresting, as Falco's taunts are full of arrogant verbal ownage.
Piloting: Falco >>> Fox

Result: 55-45 for Falco

Fixed it, I find Fox easier to rack up damage than Falco

 

[King Funk]

Fox's airgame and reflector are definitely better than falco...

This is what it is with the spacies:

Falco, best air game
Wolf, best ground game
Fox, balanced air and ground game

Fix'd

Let's compare:

- Nair:
Fox --> simple kick, efficiently used with FF for follow-ups
Falco --> multi-hit attack, great for comboing

I'll make it a tie here...

- Bair:
Fox --> very powerful, however lacks range and "hit-time"
Falco --> good, gimpy and more efficient

Falco wins...

- Fair:
Fox --> great for comboing/attacking enemies in the air/on platforms
Falco --> has very little use, sometimes off stage

Fox wins...

- Dair:
Fox --> nice combo attack, although hard to land most of the time
Falco --> great spike, good priority, can be used with SH efficiently

Falco wins...

------------------

Now flame the hell out of me if you want. After all, it's only my opinion. ^^

 

[CELTiiC]

Fix'd

Let's compare:

- Nair:
Fox --> simple kick, efficiently used with FF for follow-ups
Falco --> multi-hit attack, great for comboing

I'll make it a tie here...

- Bair:
Fox --> very powerful, however lacks range and "hit-time"
Falco --> good, gimpy and more efficient

Falco wins...

- Fair:
Fox --> great for comboing/attacking enemies in the air/on platforms
Falco --> has very little use, sometimes off stage

Fox wins...

- Dair:
Fox --> nice combo attack, although hard to land most of the time
Falco --> great spike, good priority, can be used with SH efficiently

Falco wins...

------------------

Now flame the hell out of me if you want. After all, it's only my opinion. ^^

No offense, but I agree with Pgh-M@v-Pgh. Fox has a better aerial game than Falco does..

 

[Roderick]

@ funkie king. Only add that fox's nair is a sex kick and falco's bair is a sex kick and that falco's fair can be put to good use for edgeguarding when the opponent has already used his second jump. Also u didn't mention Uair which fox obviously wins.

 

[Zhamy]

Hey Fox mains ! The Falco Boards are discussing Fox match-up, and we currently think it's about 90:10 Falco

Haha, brilliant. <3

Re Fox's air game:

The thing is, Fox's air game is much more flexible than Falco's, and being "harder to land" isn't usually a significant factor in higher level play. That being said, it's still impossible to compare two moves directly between the two, because face it - they're each used for different things. Fox's Nair is friggin amazing, for example, as proper spacing and whatnot make it a monster to try and punish, Bair does some stupidly good things for Fox's OOS options, etc. etc.

(And Fox's Uair ***** Falco's Uair.)

Falco's real objective advantages in this matchup are his better lasers and the CG. (**** you, Sakurai, what the hell? All these chains against Fox...) Take those away, and Fox does significantly better than Falco, as you're more likely to see the damage output swing in Fox's favor with his less restricted approach/defensive options, thanks to combo ability and whatnot. Gimping level is about the same for both characters, roughly. Falco's recovery is slightly worse than Fox's, but against each other, they have some pretty good edgeguarding and gimping tools.

Really, I'd put this matchup as 60:40 Falco, maybe even 55:45 (although I'd lean the other way, personally). Any points of contention?

 

[dunp]

i'm a fox fan, and new to this forum.
can somebody tell me where i can find more usefull info, because this thread is
nice and informative tnx a bunch

 

[Roderick]

Use the Fox boards lol

 

[dunp]

Use the Fox boards lol

i know, but this is a nice thread too

 

[Orion*]

if youre comparing air games note that

foxs dair->utilt/grab is decent, mostly on fat characters is it really usefull (D3, ROB).

however
falcos nair -> laser locks
falcos dair-> tech chase game (you can laser lock, dair again and again..., dsmash, ect.)

falcos nair ***** on platforms and can laser lock. fox can like what.. jab if the opponents an idiot at low percents and then try and follow up.. lmfao

The thing is, Fox's air game is much more flexible than Falco's

not really...
its not like you can efficiently approach with either...
and defensively falco is better overall.

edit: its 60/40 falco

 

[Zhamy]

not really...
its not like you can efficiently approach with either...
and defensively falco is better overall.

When did I say anything about approaching? Learn to read.

 

[Roderick]

I think a defensive falco wouldn't be quite good here. Fox will laser u and if u laser he will reflect...after all he has a better reflecter
Still 60:40 falco's favor

 

[King Funk]

Man, I feel ********... How could I forget U-Air...? Yes, Fox wins that one.

 

[Roderick]

What is preferable here?: Campy playstyle or an aggressive one?

 

[Orion*]

When did I say anything about approaching? Learn to read.

you're more likely to see the damage output swing in Fox's favor with his less restricted approach/defensive options, thanks to combo ability and whatnot.

10approaches

 

[Denzi]

What is preferable here?: Campy playstyle or an aggressive one?

Fox has a Reflector...

Edit: 1,300th post!

 

[§witch]

10approaches

Or, wait until falco approaches and punish.

 

[8AngeL8]

Honestly, I have a very hard time with this fight. I guess I could see it as 50/50 because of the CG and our superior laser range. Falco relies on keeping his opponent at arms length with lasers, aerials, and Ftilt. Fox is just so much faster than us, though, I find it hard to deal with. Against other fast characters, I can match my strengths against their weaknesses, but Fox has a similar set of strengths and weaknesses, which I always have a harder time taking advantage of.

It may just be my playstyle, and not the matchup itself, because I hear a lot of Falco's say it's in their favor. I almost always end up going Snake against Fox (I STILL think that one is Snake's favor).

 

[Zhamy]

10approaches

Which is not in context with what I was talking about. Reading comprehension, please.

It may just be my playstyle, and not the matchup itself, because I hear a lot of Falco's say it's in their favor. I almost always end up going Snake against Fox (I STILL think that one is Snake's favor).

If it is, then not by much. Most Snake/Fox mains place it anywhere from 60:40 Snake to 60:40 Fox.

 

[8AngeL8]

I'd agree it's a close fight, but certainly not Fox's favor, and I don't think it's even either. 6/4 Snake sounds about right, to me.

This isn't the thread to be discussing that, though, so let's keep it on topic

When playing this fight, do we need to try to keep the fight grounded? Normally, Falco prefers the air, but Fox is extremely nimble up there, and can combo to hell and back.

 

[-Mars-]

I don't really mind the chain grab that much because I can turn around and put 50% on you with a **** utilt>usmash combo. Fox kills earlier, wins the offstage game, and nullifies Falco's camping. Falco has better pokes, priority, and grab game.

I think it's even but I know higher level play hasn't proven that to be true yet.

 

[M@v]

I have a feeling this is going to be a tough one to call in the end...lol. If the controversy keeps up for a while I will suggest a compromise of 55:45 falco. But lets see how this goes, we just started.

 

[StarHawk_30]

Falco beats Fox in almost every department, like in aerials, ground attacks, specials and even taunts

ps. Fox can't fly an arwing, he is almost as bad as slippy