Match-Up Week #20 : Fox

[King Funk]

Crystal just won this thread

Yep... That was a very nice summup that convinced me.

 

[M@v]

I had a really close and epic fox vs Falco set at my tourney. Once I get the vids uploaded , Ill post them here. I think the match is a real good representation of high level Fox vs Falco. they are uploading now, So im guessing within a half hour?

Also, if fox turtles in his shine, Falcos blaster becomes near useless. I completely shut down the falco's spam game with it, and forced him to approach the whole time.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I had a really close and epic fox vs Falco set at my tourney. Once I get the vids uploaded , Ill post them here. I think the match is a real good representation of high level Fox vs Falco. they are uploading now, So im guessing within a half hour?

Also, if fox turtles in his shine, Falcos blaster becomes near useless. I completely shut down the falco's spam game with it, and forced him to approach the whole time.

turtling in a shine in no way makes falco always approach unless you are ahead in %. if you have more % than him and is just sitting there shining, im sure a good falco will leave you alone. that said, this applies to almost all matchups and can't really be brought up in a matchup discussion.....

 

[M@v]

heres the set:

M@v(Fox) vs Bowz(Falco) matches 1&2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sHkyufxkkq8


M@v(Fox)vs Bowz(Falco) Match 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjUfOBF263I

 

[XxBlackxX]

in the second match, i saw no reason for falco use lasers or approach you if all you're doing is shining. he was ahead in % and it was a mistake. if he made you do the approaching, maybe he would have won the set.
in the third game, he made more mistakes than you, which is why you won, tbh.

 

[M@v]

oh yeah, and upsmash ko on falco at 88% ftw.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

I am inclined to think this match us is even, 50-50, taking everything into consideration and you compare them..

Falco's chaingrab-attack options vs Fox's Uptilt-attack options
Falco's Chaingrab in my opinion is just a little bit more superior because it is easier to apply than fox's uptilt. A lot of fox's attack options can be easily shieldgrabbed. But fox's uptilt is quick and hard to avoid at the right time.

Recovery options
Fox wins this one. Same options as Falco and more. Can also SideB to the ledge or onto the stage. Fox's Reflector can slow aerial speed to practically nothing and keep falco guessing. This also makes fox the harder to gimp in recovery and Falco all the more predictable in edgeguarding.

Reflector
Fox's reflector has more uses than Falco's in this match up as it can be used for its uses in recovery, semi-spiking, and of course reflecting. Minimal lag compared to Falco helps stop a campy Falco.

Really the only thing Falco's reflector has the advantage over Fox's is possible tripping and the ability to space. That is about it.

Blaster
This is an interesting comparison. Both can be SHL, or SHDL (fox with the SHTL option if done correctly)

Fox's reflector prevents usage of Falco's blaster at a distance. Fox just sees it coming even if falco tries to play a bit of a laser "mindgame". Up close this becomes harder to predict and Falco can use this to his advantage. Fox reflecting an empty SH leads to a chaingrab, Dair, etc. Miscalculated SH leads to the stunning of fox (or shielded) and a follow up of an attack.

Fox's Blaster is in the option direction as it is risky to use up close because it cannot stun and a SH is needed for that no lag at the end to be used upclose to be less punishable for it's usage. At a distance it can be spammed like crazy and relatively safe to spam because it does have a somewhat faster cooldown time than other projectiles. So because of this falco can be lured into using his reflector and using fox's running speed punish the lag on Falco's Reflector. If not, falco will be lured into an approach.

In all, fox has a sligthly better camp ability than falco. But Falco has the better ability to string his projectiles into attacks and ultimatly cause the shift of defence and offence on both sides.

Killing
Fox wins this one. Foxs smashes come about a bit quicker in general and have more knockback than Falcos. But both are light characters and will get KOed at the around the same percantages. Fox also has a strong Uair and back air like falco, but are a bit harder to connect.

Spacing
Falco I would say keeps his bread through better spacing. With phantasm, lasers and reflector, falco can rack up a lot of damage in some relativly safe manner. I believe that falcos Ftilt and jabs outrange fox's, but I am not sure. Fox's Dtilt seems to have range equal to that of falco's Ftilt.

Combos/Pressuring
I know that true combos in brawl are few, but for a lack of a better term to describe attacks that setup nicely with each other I'll use that. And since that is related to pressure I'll throw that together in this comparison.

Both have decent pressuring options.

Falco's jabs, tilts and aerials (apart from Fair)are a bit hard to punish when properly spaced. Plus these follow up with each other and the lasers.

Fox's attacks are in general faster to come out and that in itself leads all of the attacks to set up with each other nicely. Since fox is a fast character overall that has a natural tendancy to pressure a person when attacks are coming out very quickly and one has to keep up with them all.

Overview
The above comparisons show that this is a close match up, they are even in just about everything and the pros and cons of them both equal each other out. That is why I think the match up is 50-50.

A good fox player will want to avoid the chaingrab that gives Falco that edge with fox and force the approach with his lasers and punish any mistakes that a Falco user might make.

I believe Falco will want to make sure he does not get into that uptilt attack sequence and get decent spacing against fox to avoid that from happening and play defensively to get that chance to get the chaingrab. Once you do accquire some percentage to avoid the uptilt attack sequence or Fox is in the percentage to be KOed you will want to play more offensively to get that kill.​

Agreed.

You are one smart person. Great read and very knowledgeable.

 

[YUNq PHR3$H]

We have a better blaster, unfortunately he has an excellent reflector. Still, cautious lasers are still a good idea.

We have a CG, and due to the fact that he falls mad fast, a followup with a gatling combo is quite effective in my experience, getting him to > 60% if you get it right. Still, like you say, he can combo us hard because we're a fellow fast faller. Watch out for dair to uptilt juggle combos, they hurt, like hell. Remember that a good Fox doesn't usually approach with dair, but punishes you with it, if you see a dair happy Fox, shieldgrab him, Fox really suffers from followups from Falco's throws.

We have a better horizontal recovery, but Fox mixes it up better, we'll find it much harder to gimp him than he will us. He can stall his fall with shine to keep us guessing. We, on the other hand, have to recover straight into the ledge with Phantasm, recover on stage (not a good idea as utilt beats it but on occasion you won't get punished) and Firebird from above into the ledge. If we recover from below with Firebird, prepare to get shine spiked. (Lol Blad )

If you're both in the air, nair will beat out his aerials, and bair will be pretty painful for him too, but you may want to keep it fresh for killing. Luckily for us Fox is one of the lightest characters, so he's not as difficult to kill. Unfortunately for us, we're light too, and Fox has an Usmash that will send you to your death at the early 100%s. Our kill moves are not going to kill until a bit higher, except maybe Fsmash, but don't expect an opening for that too often against an opponent as slippery as Fox.
As much as I don't like to say it, I think the balance of this matchup lies a lot in getting the CG. Land it, and expect the scales to tip heavily in your favour, but if you don't, expect it to be a tough fight.

I say 55/45 to 60/40 Falco. In terms of if they had a dogfight in Arwings, 99/1 Falco, because personally, he prefers the air, and is the best pilot in Star Fox

wat he said ^^. Chaingrab da **** fox. Only thing you have to worry about is the n-fered up smash && watch out for his d-air.

 

[Zhamy]

in the second match, i saw no reason for falco use lasers or approach you if all you're doing is shining. he was ahead in % and it was a mistake.

Because Fox would outcamp him then. It's not a mistake, because it keeps pressure on Fox and makes spacing for him harder. It's not just a battle of percentage.

in the third game, he made more mistakes than you, which is why you won, tbh.

If you're trying to downplay him winning, it's not working. If the Falco made more mistakes, then he made more mistakes. Doesn't cheapen the victory.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

^
Zhamy, all of your posts always have so much meaning behind them lol =D

*hops off.*

 

[Beetle Juice]

Great thread crystal but i believe you missed out a few things:

1) Even though fox can they there and reflect it does not shut down falcos game all it does is make sure that he get shot, falco can just stand there, but i agree falco will most likely approach. Just like falco vs. zelda, just because she can reflect his shots doesnt mean that he is gonna stop shooting his lasers.

2) Falco's shine can be as good as fox and can limit fox's movements. If fox tries to recovers w/ his phantasm to the stage, the shine will push him back and his fast fall can force him to use his firefox.

3) When shielded fox's up tilt pushes you away.

4) Even though falco's lasers limits fox air game, his AAA combo shuts downs fox's ground game and forces him to retreat (also you can manage to pull out a up or front tilt for spacing)

5) Offstage falco does have the slight advantage, and can gimp fox better than fox can gimp falco, also fox players should know that they will get punished for their phantasm lag if they try to land on the stage.

6) Fox does have potential indeed, even with some twist and turns his intentions are predictable but is speed helps him get though lasers if he is up close, and his smash attacks and get falco offstage asap but off stage he is still limited on what to do.

7) Omg waveshine! lol

 

[Teran]

Great thread crystal but i believe you missed out a few things:
5) Offstage falco does have the slight advantage, and can gimp fox better than fox can gimp falco, also fox players should know that they will get punished for their phantasm lag if they try to land on the stage.

Well actually a firebird from underneath is really easy to edgehog. Falco is also susceptible to shine spikes, so I say the gimping advantage goes to Fox, as he has the tools to mix up his recovery quite a bit.

7) Omg waveshine! lol

Agreed

 

[Beetle Juice]

edit: sorry to double post in the first one i ment stay there and reflect and I ment it does not shut don't falco's laser game.

 

[Beetle Juice]

that is true falco will get gimped UNDERNEATH the stage which we should discuss next:

falcos dair vs fox shine *cough waveshine*

both require to be precise when gimping the other beneath the stage.

 

[XxBlackxX]

Because Fox would outcamp him then. It's not a mistake, because it keeps pressure on Fox and makes spacing for him harder. It's not just a battle of percentage.

o rly? if fox is sitting there shining, he's not doing any kind of camping at all. in fact, if he's just turtling with the shine, i see no reason to approach or do anything. and if he's using lasers, falco can shdl->immediate reflector to outcamp fox.

If you're trying to downplay him winning, it's not working. If the Falco made more mistakes, then he made more mistakes. Doesn't cheapen the victory.

what im trying to say is that because he won the set =/= fox is better or even equal to falco. i believe falco has a slight advantage.

 

[Blad01]

What i was going to write has been said by Black ^^

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

what im trying to say is that because he won the set =/= fox is better or even equal to falco. i believe falco has a slight advantage.

I'm pretty sure for the most part we have all already agreed on this.

It's either 50:50 or 65:45 Falco.

 

[Kuga]

50-50 or 55-45 sounds good

 

[-Mars-]

o rly? if fox is sitting there shining, he's not doing any kind of camping at all. in fact, if he's just turtling with the shine, i see no reason to approach or do anything. and if he's using lasers, falco can shdl->immediate reflector to outcamp fox.

O rly? If i'm up by 1% in a tournament match I can sit in my shine and your just going to sit there......real smart.

I've been playing lots of Falco users lately and i've been able to get SHDL's to connect and because of Foxs' fall speed get my reflector up in time to block Falcos shots. I think Fox has a faster rate of fire, am I correct?

 

[XxBlackxX]

O rly? If i'm up by 1% in a tournament match I can sit in my shine and your just going to sit there......real smart.

I've been playing lots of Falco users lately and i've been able to get SHDL's to connect and because of Foxs' fall speed get my reflector up in time to block Falcos shots. I think Fox has a faster rate of fire, am I correct?

watch the match before replying to my comment plox >_>
in the match, the falco was up by like 50% and fox was turtling. falco kept on trying to laser and getting him self damage, which was unnecessary. also, he approached when he was winning, which led to an early usmash KO.

and yes he has a faster rate of fire.

 

[-Mars-]

My bad, I hadn't looked at the previous page. I really think Fox outcamps Falco, Falco can't do the same things to Fox that he does to other characters.

 

[Beetle Juice]

I think its 60-40 or 55-45 in falco's favor. We got to base it on tournament analasis as well on a ****load of matches. But I have not seen a good fox do well against a good falco, i would like to see that though for my own entertainment and I believe it was sk92 vs gamble or whoever it was (it was a while back) that quit after that beating.

 

[Rogue Pit]

fox is your master, he taught you everything you know, but not everything he knows. Id say its 74-26 foxs favor.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

fox is your master, he taught you everything you know, but not everything he knows. Id say its 74-26 foxs favor.

Fox may have taught Falco all he knows, but Falco has an 00ber Arwing at his disposal in brawl, and being the merciful master he his, he prefers not to use it. Instead he prefers to pwn Fox through uses of flashy blue sparkles and his feathers of fury.

 

[XxBlackxX]

I think its 60-40 or 55-45 in falco's favor. We got to base it on tournament analasis as well on a ****load of matches. But I have not seen a good fox do well against a good falco, i would like to see that though for my own entertainment and I believe it was sk92 vs gamble or whoever it was (it was a while back) that quit after that beating.

it was SK92 vs. Lucien.
some of SK's flashiest play like ever. i have it favorited lol.

agreed on slight advantage to falco.

 

[M@v]

yeah lets settle on either 50:50 or 55:45 soon. Ill update the fox matchup guide with the new ratio and extra info once we decide.

 

[CHuBb69]

60:40 sounds about right.

 

[Roderick]

55-45, not 60-40. Too much.

 

[King Funk]

I will go for 55-45...

 

[Teran]

Yes, 55/45, it's been repeated enough times, and the one that I think people are generally the most content with. So 55/45 it should be.