Match-Up Week #19 : Wolf

[XxBlackxX]

Hooray! Someone important telling the Wolf mains that they're wrong!

Maybe we can reach a definative answer now.

(it's definately not 55:45 Falco)

....more like 65:35.

 

[Turbo Ether]

It's actually really easy to punish wolfs bair with falco. I literally made a wolf main quit wolf because I 3 stocked him in tournament with falco when he could get my GW down to last stock lol. It's an increadibly easy match-up.

Huh?

Well spaced Wolf SHFF Bair is ridiculously safe on block/dodge. Ban FD, blaster/platform camp the Falco 'til you're at 40ish percent and can't be chain-spiked. Even if you get chainspiked for some stupid reason, it's super easy to just tech it or smash DI onto the stage. Now go actually fight. Rinse+repeat per stock. After 40ish percent the only advantage Falco has in the matchup is laser and a better jab.

Not a **** matchup by any stretch of the imagination, with this strategy that less than a handful of players in the country actually use. Threestocking someone bad/that lacked matchup experience doesn't mean anything. I've 3-stocked Falco with DDD, does that mean anything?

 

[smasher?o.0]

well if the falco isnt punishing and not PS'ing then it is 55:45 falco
if it is a falco playing smart it is 65:35

 

[Turbo Ether]

Nice argument. Also suprising to discover that Falco is in fact the only character capable of powershielding!

 

[Denzi]

Note: If the Falco (for lack of a better description) spaces his CG correctly, it should be impossible to tech it. In one of SK92's Falco dittos, he got CG -> Spiked, and although he clearly smash DI'd towards the stage, he never actually made contact with it. In other words, if the "discoverer" of the spike teching and one of the best Falco players can't consistently do it, then it's still not "super easy" to live through.

 

[8AngeL8]

Hylian, what were you referring to as far as punishing the Bair, and what good Wolf's have you actually done it to? I'm not saying I don't believe you, I just am skeptical because I haven't heard of a good way to consistently punish it when it's properly spaced.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Isn't this matchup fairly even considering the fact Falco can't do anything against the Wall of Wolf except laser, which Wolf has the reflector for?

I don't know if that's oversimplifying or not but it's something to consider.

 

[Turbo Ether]

In other words, if the "discoverer" of the spike teching and one of the best Falco players can't consistently do it, then it's still not "super easy" to live through.

Yes it is.

 

[clowsui]

agreeing with ether here
it's called decent DI and meteor cancelling.

 

[pure_awesome]

agreeing with ether here
it's called decent DI and meteor cancelling.

You're gonna meteor cancel with Wolf? Edgehog, much?


For all those asking, IAP is the perfect height to punish Wall of Wolf, and is ridiculously fast.

Hell, Wolf isn't even that fast in the air. We can just chase your aerial and punish the oh-so-predicatable boost smash/ftilt on landing. Or laser Wall of Wolf. Or SHReflector. Or Ftilt.

EDIT: Wait a minute. Doesn't Falco's Bair beat Wolf's? I know it does in terms of speed, but I'm decently sure it beats it out entirely.

If Wall of Wolf is what makes and breaks this match-up for Wolf, then it's not a good match-up for Wolf. 65-35, maybe 60-40.

Yes it is.

Even if it was super-easy to tech (which is debatable), it's still, at best, a 50/50 shot of surviving. Wolf has to guess whether Falco is going to hit the spike, or just SHAD to fake. If the Wolf doesn't try to DI and Falco goes for the spike, stock. If he does try to DI and the Falco just airdodges, Wolf uses his Fair and ends up too far below the stage and forced to use his terrible UpB to recover. Edgehog, stock.
In theory, Wolf has a 50/50 shot of surviving the chaingrab, if it can be teched with 100% consistency, which is another issue all of it's own.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hylian, who are you talking about? I never heard of just one decent Wolf from Texas.

 

[Blad01]

EDIT: Wait a minute. Doesn't Falco's Bair beat Wolf's? I know it does in terms of speed, but I'm decently sure it beats it out entirely.

I've tested it. The two moves "clash", so it's the same priority.

 

[pure_awesome]

I've tested it. The two moves clashe, so it's the same priority.

I'm gonna assume by clash you mean exchange hits? Don't all aerials exchange hits if they're both within range and connect at the same time? I've never really taken the time to figure that out.

Regardless, when you take into consideration that Falco's is faster, seems to have a bit more range, and the two do the same amount of damage and both auto-cancel, I think we can say that Falco's Bair is a pretty darn good way to deal with Wall of Wolf, if it doesn't neutralize it completely.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Whoa guys, stop spreading misinformation! No way in hell does Falcos bair outrange Wolf. This is one of the wrongest thing I've seen so far.

 

[Blad01]

I'm gonna assume by clash you mean exchange hits? Don't all aerials exchange hits if they're both within range and connect at the same time? I've never really taken the time to figure that out.

Yes, that's what i mean And you're right about the definition. They don't have to be exactly the same range thought (Bair has a little more range, but that doesn't prevent Falco's Bair to touch Wolf's hurtbox)

Regardless, when you take into consideration that Falco's is faster, seems to have a bit more range, and the two do the same amount of damage and both auto-cancel, I think we can say that Falco's Bair is a pretty darn good way to deal with Wall of Wolf, if it doesn't neutralize it completely.

Falco's is maybe faster, but has less range, decreases in power and priority, can't be SHDJ (SH + Attack + Double Jump). Overall, it's a good way to give some problems to Wolf's Wall, but is not enough to neutralize it. And Wolf could maybe even punish Falco's Bair, if missed, with the second Bair (out of Full Jump Bair).

 

[pure_awesome]

Whoa guys, stop spreading misinformation! No way in hell does Falcos bair outrange Wolf. This is one of the wrongest thing I've seen so far.

I think you're underestimating just how much range Falco's sweetspotted Bair has. I'll go test it now, I wouldn't be surprised if the two had the exact same range. (Though I'll admit that Wolf's is likely somewhat more... user-friendly at long ranges).

 

[§witch]

Wolf's definitely has more range. Lemme find a vid.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=2YriSpMXiG4

And it's disjointed, there's no way that can be punished as long as the wolf main actually knows the concept of proper spacing.

Also, who said wolf has bad aerial movement speed? Have any of you actually used wolf before? His is like 5th fastest in the game.

 

[Ishiey]

Falco's comes out faster, but with wolf's better aerial maneuverability and at least equally ranged bair, wolf would still come out on top most of the time.

Seriously though, unless you can PS every single SHFF bair, it's a close matchup.

 

[pure_awesome]

Also, who said wolf has bad aerial movement speed? Have any of you actually used wolf before? His is like 5th fastest in the game.

That would be me. I didn't say it was bad, I say it's not as great as people are making it out to be. People are talking like if Wolf SHFF's his Bair and DIs away, nothing Falco can do will catch up to it.

Don't get me wrong, Wolf's air speed is good. It's just not good enough for what people seem to be saying.



Anyway. I think this may have been what happened when I tested the aerials. Now, this is all theory, I'm one person operating two controllers, and don't have any equipment to help me out with this. This is just what it looks like is happening to me.

When Wolf uses Bair, his hurtbox extends backwards. Because the attack doesn't come out immediately, his hurtbox extends before his hitbox actually comes out. Because Falco's Bair is faster than Wolf's, this means that when they're done at maximum range, Falco's Bair, despite, in fact, having less range, will hit Wolf's extended hurtbox before Wolf's hitbox actually comes out.

That's my theory, which would explain why it originally seemed to me like Falco's had slightly more range, since it's the one hitting at max distance, rather than Wolf's. Again, it's just a theory, but the fact of the matter is that when I get a Falco and a Wolf back-to-back at max distance and they both SHBair, Falco's hits, or they both hit, but never just Wolf's hits.

EDIT: I'm even more sure that this is the case now, since further testing reveals that at max distance Falco's SHDair will hit Wolf before the Bair comes out, while at close distances the two will trade hits. I can take a video if you guys would like, but it'll be a crappy cell phone video.

I still don't see why we can't just stand there, watch you Bair, and then IAP.

 

[§witch]

That would be me. I didn't say it was bad, I say it's not as great as people are making it out to be. People are talking like if Wolf SHFF's his Bair and DIs away, nothing Falco can do will catch up to it.

Don't get me wrong, Wolf's air speed is good. It's just not good enough for what people seem to be saying.

At the full range of wolf's bair, I doubt that there's anything but shine the falco can do. I may be wrong, I want to see what Hylian is saying about how it's always punishable.

Anyway. I think this may have been what happened when I tested the aerials. Now, this is all theory, I'm one person operating two controllers, and don't have any equipment to help me out with this. This is just what it looks like is happening to me.

When Wolf uses Bair, his hurtbox extends backwards. Because the attack doesn't come out immediately, his hurtbox extends before his hitbox actually comes out. Because Falco's Bair is faster than Wolf's, this means that when they're done at maximum range, Falco's Bair, despite, in fact, having less range, will hit Wolf's extended hurtbox before Wolf's hitbox actually comes out.

That's my theory, which would explain why it originally seemed to me like Falco's had slightly more range, since it's the one hitting at max distance, rather than Wolf's. Again, it's just a theory, but the fact of the matter is that when I get a Falco and a Wolf back-to-back at max distance and they both SHBair, Falco's hits, or they both hit, but never just Wolf's hits.

EDIT: I'm even more sure that this is the case now, since further testing reveals that at max distance Falco's SHDair will hit Wolf before the Bair comes out, while at close distances the two will trade hits. I can take a video if you guys would like, but it'll be a crappy cell phone video.

I still don't see why we can't just stand there, watch you Bair, and then IAP.

I suppose if they both bair at the same time, but, that's not likely to happen very often.

And I suppose you could just sit there and IAP after.

 

[pure_awesome]

At the full range of wolf's bair, I doubt that there's anything but shine the falco can do. I may be wrong, I want to see what Hylian is saying about how it's always punishable.

Lasers, shine and IAP are the only things I can think off that would be safe. Falco's boost smash goes pretty darn far, but I don't know if it's quick enough to avoid getting an Ftilt to the face or a Dsmash. Same goes for walk->Ftilt. I'd also like to know specifically what Hylian was referring to, though I have a hunch it may have something to do with Laser approaches.

I suppose if they both bair at the same time, but, that's not likely to happen very often.

Falco's comes out faster, but with wolf's better aerial maneuverability and at least equally ranged bair, wolf would still come out on top most of the time.

But that's just it. In all the testing I've done so far, I've never seen Wolf's Bair cleanly beat Falco's. I've seen them exchange hits and I've seen Falco's beat Wolf's, but never Wolf's beat Falco's.

And I'm not just testing them at the same time. I ran tests where I intentionally had Wolf start his Bair quite a bit before Falco starts his. As far as I can tell, if Falco has enough time to get his Bair out (which he should, considering how fast it is), it's either a hit exchange or Falco wins out cleanly, since Wolf's hurtbox extends as well as his hitbox (I assume).
On top of that, we also have SHDair to use to pretty much the exact same effect.

 

[Hylian]

Hylian, who are you talking about? I never heard of just one decent Wolf from Texas.

I travel. I played Chexr and Equi in florida and beat them both soundly.

You can just phantasm to punish bair or just start laser camping, or sh laser to phantasm. Laser to dash attack also punishes wolfs bair.

 

[Runawayfire]

If you think Wolf having a good bair is going to counteract the large amounts of advantages falco has on Wolf, then you're out of your mind. Sorry Wolf boads, Falco waxes that ***.

Also Falco's no offense but if you have problems fighting Wolf you're just not doing things right. (You must not have realized that chaingrabs, lasers and jabs define Falco.)

 

[MurdaMoe]

if the wolf manages to avoid the spike.. teching it, falco messing up, etc..

i think wolf would have the advantage.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I travel. I played Chexr and Equi in florida and beat them both soundly.

You can just phantasm to punish bair or just start laser camping, or sh laser to phantasm. Laser to dash attack also punishes wolfs bair.

Laser punsihes bair in general but not when wolf is right in falco's face one should think. If Falco does the SH he already eats the bair.

When did you play them..recently?

If you think Wolf having a good bair is going to counteract the large amounts of advantages falco has on Wolf, then you're out of your mind. Sorry Wolf boads, Falco waxes that ***.

Also Falco's no offense but if you have problems fighting Wolf you're just not doing things right. (You must not have realized that chaingrabs, lasers and jabs define Falco.)

You're stupid.

 

[8AngeL8]

If you think Wolf having a good bair is going to counteract the large amounts of advantages falco has on Wolf, then you're out of your mind. Sorry Wolf boads, Falco waxes that ***.

Also Falco's no offense but if you have problems fighting Wolf you're just not doing things right. (You must not have realized that chaingrabs, lasers and jabs define Falco.)

Wow, no. If this is the best advice you can offer the Falco boards, you should not post here. Close minded attitudes like this will not get us anywhere. You haven't played a single good Wolf, have you?

 

[Runawayfire]

Really? Even if Wolf tech's the bair/isn't spiked, he still got around a free 60%, a large damage output for one mistake that Wolf clearly cannot just do back to Falco. (Wolf would have to actually work for the %)

From there Falco has a superior camping game and air game, and for ground Falco has (arguably) the best Jab in the game. So my advice is that if Wolf's bair is controlling you at medium distance... you can always run and laser to regain control again. And if he closes the distance in front of you, you've got one of the best tools for just throwing out and stopping him.

Falco beats Wolf soundly, there is no doubt about this, Hylian knows it too but maybe you guys are going to continue trying to call us both wrong because of.... Wolf's bair? I just don't understand.

(As for good Wolf's I faced Fatalx back when my Falco was just starting out and I beat him in tournament, only got one 0 to death chaingrab out too.)

 

[pure_awesome]

Like I said, 65-35, maybe 60-40.

Sure, Runaway might be being overzealous about it, but you have to admit he's got a completely legit point. Wolf's Bair seems to be the only thing that anyone thinks could give Falco problems, and even that isn't a big deal, since Falco has so many options to deal with it (ShBair, ShDair, Lasers, IAP, ShShine, Boost Smash). Bair is a great asset for Wolf, it's just not a huge deal for Falco. Falco is just too good.

It's just... not a good match-up for Wolf.

 

[Player-3]

Like I said, 65-35, maybe 60-40.

Sure, Runaway might be being overzealous about it, but you have to admit he's got a completely legit point. Wolf's Bair seems to be the only thing that anyone thinks could give Falco problems, and even that isn't a big deal, since Falco has so many options to deal with it (ShBair, ShDair, Lasers, IAP, ShShine, Boost Smash). Bair is a great asset for Wolf, it's just not a huge deal for Falco. Falco is just too good.

It's just... not a good match-up for Wolf.

the lazor -> Nair double gimp on falcos recovery is something in wolfs favor =\

 

[pure_awesome]

You mean gimp the double-jump with a laser, and gimp SideB with Nair?

 

[Player-3]

gimp sideB with lazor then gimp the upB with Nair, sorry for not making that clear

or just gimp the double jump and sideB with lazors,
but lazor > Nair is the core,
lazor will (unless recovering form above, which means free bair) knock falco low enough making an UpB necessary, wolf will jump out and nair the upb and it drags falco down, and wolf can recover back with double jump
also works on fox but to a lesser extent due to his better upb

 

[Ishiey]

Wolf's bair goes through falco's sideB with great ease. You most likely won't be lasering wolf when he's close enough to bair you, so reflector is really your best option. Just sayin, you can punish a stupid wolf who's spamming bairs on the other side of the stage, but once he's in range your options start to decrease.

For gimping, wolf has the following options (most practical ones at least): Blaster interrupts sideB or upB, shine to edgehog on upB (virtually a free stock), nair upB, bair sideB. None of these are too difficult, and it can make recovering a real pain, especially if the wolf can predict how you'll recover. You might want to consider saving your double jump whenever possible.

 

[Hylian]

Circle jumping allows you to laser a wolf who's approacing with bair.

Seriously, it's ONE MOVE. Even in that move is super amazing(It's not that amazing) the fact that it's BY FAR his best option means it's extremely easily telegraphed.

 

[pure_awesome]

I went and tested some stuff, and, suffice to say, I found absolutely no consistent gimp method with Wolf that couldn't be circumvented by just using SideB twice in quick succession. Assuming the Falco doesn't use his doublejump properly and is forced to SideB into Wolf's blaster shot, Falco's second SideB comes out plenty fast enough to snap to the ledge, giving Wolf absurdly little time to react. I've even seen Falco make it back on-stage with the second SideB. I've also seen Falco completely ignore Wolf's blaster and SideB through the projectile. Wolf has some gimp options, but it's certainly nothing impressive.
A properly played Falco should not have to use UpB against Wolf, ever.

As for the Bair... we have plenty of options to deal with that up close. It's a good move, yes. But it's definitely not going to make the match-up for Wolf, especially since Hylian is right and it's going to be an extremely predictable approach, giving us plenty of time to pick and choose which of our many options we'd like to use.

The more testing I do, the more I'm convinced that this match is much more lopsided than we originally thought, and think it should be 65-35. Though it's hardly a difference from the 60-40 we have now, so I'm not even sure what we're debating anymore.

 

[Mikey7]

I remember why I try really hard not to post on these boards

ONCE AGAIN for the people who clearly missed it:

Wolf's bair: 1) powershield (preferably) 2) walk forward 3) ftilt OR all of Hylian's methods OR all of Runawayfire's methods

You people seriously need to recognize who the good Falco players are on the boards and stop questioning their input.

 

[pure_awesome]

Runawayfire's methods?

 

[Vlade]

Meh. Wolf's bair does not turn the tables around.

Case Closed.