Match Up Rediscussion: Peach

[Nike.]

Both coast's are completely split on what this matchup is. Praxis said that in the BBR, there was a huge debate on it. Mr. R just lost a huge european tourney in GF's to a peach. I believe that it should be looked at discussed by everybody and have the numbers settled for good.

Here's a few reads throughout the past year:

10-23-09

marth vs peach:

Most of you have to understand that this matchup isn't that bad for peach, i don't know if its 50:50 or 60:40 i don't know anymore since bone hasn't been around.

The way bone plays the matchup:

Aggressive. Uses fair like no tomorrow to counterattack.

The way praxis plays the matchup:

Camping, running away bairing, turniping.

Which one's better? Neither. Both of them answer marth in their own way but neither accomplishes much. I don't play peach much but i have seen her play enough to say she has potential in the matchup still.

If a peach can mix up between what bone does and praxis, then you'd have a peach to fight a competent marth.

as much as these boys out there think it is even, i say it isn't. And i don't care what top players they [play out there with marth. This is about the character first. Then we go on about the players. Characters come first.

Peach can only play marth one way to get at him and have a shot at winning, and that is defensive. If peach players aggressive against marth, she loses. Marth on the other had has 2 ways to play her. Agressive or defensive. Marth can rush her down to keep her from getting turnips. Thus makes it harder to win cause you need them to get a marth. Ninjalink won't let me run away and camp him. Cause he knows this is a good way to get at marth. So he keeps that pressure on me so if i was to try and camp him i get abused for it.

And as for neo, he is the other way around. He will just create this annoying wall to while zoning in and out. So even if i was to get my turnips and have all the space i need. It does not mean **** to what neo does. He can zone in and out to bait or leave an opening.

2 styles against my one style that i have to beat marth. Gimps are not reliable cause if it was that easy, peach would be gimping marths all the time and i would never have to hear about how bad this match up is or all this marth can do. They would just gimp him for easy kills and call it a day.

For peach to beat marth you need a hella lot of patients and good evasion. Also your spacing needs to be up there. Good spacing is not good enough. Great spacing is what you need. Peach also has an annoying wall. That is hard to break through. But marths is just better. And a tricky grab game is even. When i say tricky, i don't mean jab to grab or stuff like that. You actually need to have good reaction time and set up random grabs. Knew when you can go out and grab him. You can ask ninjalink or minty how i do it against them, or anyone who has seen me play.

This fight is not even. This goes to marth. If i was to go and beat all the top marths over and over, i still would not sit here and say peach goes even with marth or counters him. She does not. Reason i got those wins cause i am thinking and not stupid in the match up. I knew how to get at marth. But because of that, the logic of the match up does not change. Marth beats peach.

peach has all the tools to space him. A lot of the best marth's and peaches (edrees, bone,, me, and havok) have come down putting it even.

marth vs peach is not even, i already had to break this down to you boys already. Marth has the advantage.

we have a projectile and he doesn't. He'd need a percent lead to do that. Otherwise, he has the obligation to approach. And he'll eventually reach the ledge; and our fair outranges his.

having projectile and him not having one means nothing. Marth has a good rush down game and he can be all over you and limit your uses of turnips.

More can zone in and out to get at you. And it is not that simple to use your fair against his and beat it. Peach fair is 15 frames. Mars fair is 4 frames and he can launch/ 2 of them within a second.

What it is looking like to me is you are relying too much on camping and using that to be the answer for everything. Peach camping is not hard to shut down at all. All these peach dittos i been in and peach camps me and i just shut it down. You can't be depending on that so much or think it is the answer to everything. Cause what if they just shut down your camping (which marth has no problem doing).

Just look at the matches vs havok with you. Look at it really closley and play close attention why you was getting beat. All this that you are going on about, hovak was abusing you for it. I don't know why you are even saying this.

2-26-10

to be honest, i am slightly disappointed with marth only moving up one spot on the tier list, especially since he beats 30 out of 37 characters, ties with four, and loses to three. However, i am happy with the class rank he is in, so i guess it balances itself out. Like xyro said, thank you shaya for the release of the new tier list and all the hard work you put into it.

marth is an interesting case. The thing is, even though he beats most of the cast, he beats all of the ones that, well, don't matter as much. The remaining seven you list are basically the entirety of s and a tier + dedede; every character you're likely to actually play against in tournament.

Also, peach runs even with marth.

is that your opinion, or is that fact?

is there any fact in this game?


It's generally accepted on the wc. Edrees and i know the matchup very well, and have both played against mikehaze, havok, and zex, all of whom agree on the matchup being even.


My understanding is that neo and dark.pch think it's 80:20 marth or something and most of ec considers marth a peach counter. It was a big argument in the bbr, since all of ec players found the concept that they might be even unheard of. One of the coasts is doing it very wrong, lol.

3-16-10

West Coast is of the mindset that Marth vs. Peach is even. MikeHaze agrees with this, and WC has far more Peaches than we do.

Marth vs Peach is blatantly in Marth's favor

4-7-10

i still don't understand why marth vs peach is being debated as close?

Mr-r have you even sat down and analyzed the tools available to you in the mu or do you just claim it's close because you lose it lol

think about what your character has available to you to counter what peach has available to her and what she can do to stop your tools in comparison to what you can do to stop hers before you just decide match ups are even because you lose them

i lost to ally - marth still ***** snake
back when i lost to june's dk a year ago, - marth still ***** dk


just because you lose a mu doesn't mean it's close >_>

Oct 22, 09
Praxis (Peach) vs Havok (Marth) MM

Oct 24, 09
Trio3 (Marth) Vs Siri (Peach) 1
Trio3 (Marth) Vs Siri (Peach) 2

Jan 3, 10
Iris (Marth) vs Ankoku (Peach) 1
Iris (Marth) vs Ankoku (Peach) 2
Iris (Marth) vs Ankoku (Peach) 3
Iris (Marth) vs Ankoku (Peach) 4

Mar 18, 10 (Tourney)
Nike (Marth) vs Castro (Peach) 1
Nike (Marth) vs Castro (Peach) 2
Nike (Marth) vs Castro (Peach) 3
Nike (Marth) vs Castro (Peach) 4

May 14, 10 (Tourney)
Leon (Peach) vs Mr.R (Marth) 1
Leon (Peach) vs Mr.R (Marth) 2
Leon (Peach) vs Mr.R (Marth) 3

May 17, 10 (Tourney)
Silly Kyle (Peach) vs BloodHawk (Marth) 1
Silly Kyle (Peach) vs BloodHawk (Marth) 2
Silly Kyle (Peach) vs BloodHawk (Marth) 3

 

[Shaya]

Awesome++

I've talked to mikehaze about this match up before as well.
He doesn't think it's even. He just doesn't think it's a bad match up for Peach.

 

[Nike.]

BY FAR my biggest asset in this match is ftilt. It angles perfectly for every float cancel approach peach makes. Everytime she takes to the air, ftilt will beat it.

Peach's fair has 16 frames start up iirc. That's a long time, and you can clearly see the move coming out before it actually connects. There very easy to see coming and I love to counter it if for some reason i didn't already hit her with ftilt.

Speaking of her fair. It's one of her killing moves. Dark Peach always preaches about how important it is for the peach player to save fair til marth is at kill percent. That's not always the case as it's basically spammed from what I've seen in any recent vids. If it's a move she uses all the time, I usually end up living 150+ every stock from it being so stale. Usmash/fsmash are her next best killing moves, but you shouldn't be hit by those unless she caught you making a mistake.

Peach is HORRIBLE when on the ledge, especially after 100%. This is a matchup where you can get tons of free damage from punishing her ledge options. Ledge hop -> float canceled fair/dair is something to watch out for, but shield -> fair/uair takes care of that.

In Mr.R vs Leon Game 1, Ramin used breversal counter from under the stage when peach used her umbrella to grab the ledge. Is it guarunteed? Also, does anyone know if marth can drop from the ledge to counter as shes recovering, or will she autograb the ledge first? Kinda like what marth does to drill rush or toon link.

The reason Peach stands a chance in this game is because of her turnips obviously. I have lots of trouble vs them. Pokemon Stadium is a nightmare for me when she's on the other side, pulling til a stitch face comes out.

She also has a low percent combo. Dair -> Dair -> Uair -> Utilt. When she gets it off on me at 0%, I see myself at 42% instantly and in a horrible spot. Do any peach mains know if marth is able to get out of this effectively? Marth is usally too high to upb.

The 2 peach players that I play on a regular basis cannot stand Yoshi's Island. Bloodhawk took Silly Kyle there as well. Why is that stage bad for her?

 

[Nicole]

I think this matchup is pretty even. 60/40 at most for Marth. I come from a crappy region, but I've never lost to a Marth in tournament or in an MM with Peach. I think that Marth has a slight overall advantage in his range and his great defensive tools (i.e. like retreating fair and upB out of shield.)

Peach's Bair comes out in 6 frames, Marth's fair comes out in 4, so Peach can often beat out Marth's fair with her bair if she predicts just a little early, so Marth can't just rush her stupidly, or even decently. She really doesn't even HAVE to predict, she just needs to have good reaction time when she sees him approaching. His spacing has to be right on. Peach's fair actualy has more range than Marth's, but her fair is 16 frames...and that's pretty slow, she'd really have to predict very early (usually using too much Fair in this matchup gets Peach punished...at least in my experience, Bair is the way to go). Marth racks damage in this MU with fair and dancing blade, but if Peach shields dancing blade, she can easily punish with a grab or jab during the middle of the move. She can also SDI out of it rather easily due to her floaty nature.

Peach may have a harder time killing Marth than he has killing her, but her moves are more damaging and she is known for being a good damage racker in general. Peach can land Usmashes on Marth if he whiffs an Upb out of shield, or if he fullhops a fair. Peach can also gimp Marth really nicely with turnips + edgehogging, so that can really help her get the kills she needs. Some of the good Marths I've played do the over b slash while recovering so that they stall out their recovery and get a little extra boost - turnips are not affected by this and will gimp Marth all the same. Marth of course kills well as usual, but he may be killing more with Up B out of shield rather than his usual moves. Marth can also gimp Peach himself, and spiking her through her UpB is something that he can do with good timing and spacing, so Peach has to be a little more careful than she's used to offstage as well.

Peach must be very careful to stay away from Marth in his shield when you're at high percents (like 135% or higher). Marth can up B out of shield just about any attack, even Peach's JAB. It's kind of ridiculous. She has to make sure she's on guard at high percents. Fortunately, there's no need to hit his shield at this point anyway, so she can just run away until she sees a better opening.

Marth can swat turnips all day for all I care, because the lag he gets from Fair-ing a turnip lets me have enough time to do the windup on my Fair. Even if he catches the turnip, if Peach spaces correctly, she won't get hit by Marth's attack, she just might not be able to hit him. Turnips are a hindrance to Marth and are really important. If Marth plays defensively, Peach can get all the turnips she wants, but has a harder time approaching Marth. If Marth plays aggressively, Peach has a much harder time getting the turnips, but can use them much easier once she does get them. So it's kind of a toss up there. Nonetheless, turnips are really useful for Peach and really obnoxious for Marth.

Peach's Fair will go through Marth's Nair, though I feel that Marth's Nair gives her a good bit of trouble anyways, because Peach must predict that Marth is going to use his Nair. Peach's bair will also go through Marth's Nair, but it's more difficult to space it properly. Peach's dair is a bit less useful in this matchup compared to others since Marth's Uair goes through it and he has UpB out of shield to punish it, though again, Peach can float away and cause Marth to whiff his UpB, leading to an easy punish.

Peach's Ftilt in particular is really nice and gives Marth alot of trouble while approaching a grounded Peach. On the other hand, Peach has a rather hard time approaching Marth, given that she cannot pressure his shield the way she'd like to. Turnips can help her approach, but it's still a difficult task. As far as stages go, strangely, I like Battlefield best. Smashville is good also, and Lylat is fine too. Any neutrals with nice platforms. Yoshi's sucks for Peach...IMO.

I would say the matchup is 55:45 (Peach favor) when Marth has to approach, and 60:40 (Marth favor) when Peach has to approach. So it really depends how defensively both players play, and who is in the lead, I think. I'd say 55:45 for Marth overall, I think both characters have an answer to most of the things the other can do. But I'm from the crappy Midwest, and no one really plays Marth very well around here.

 

[Lord Chair]

I would say the matchup is 55:45 (Peach favor) when Marth has to approach, and 60:40 (Marth favor) when Peach has to approach. So it really depends how defensively both players play, and who is in the lead, I think. I'd say 55:45 for Marth overall, I think both characters have an answer to most of the things the other can do. But I'm from the crappy Midwest, and no one really plays Marth very well around here.

It is funny because Peach never really hàs to approach.

 

[Shaya]

and I'm not sure about peach being at a noticeable favour when being approached.

It's close quarter/aerial combat where she shines... a lot less so on the ground then in the air...

And our jab out ranges her aerials horizontally and vertically. We have to fight a 2 frame jab and turnip throws (8/9 frame item throw forward oos iirc). Peach has got an insanely annoying aerial bait game for Marth to handle; I'm still not sure where Marth's are failing on handling Peach whilst grounded though...

 

[VibeSlyph]

As long as you don't lose to Peach's stupid turnip game, there isn't really a reason to say this MU is even. Her air game in general isn't really comparable to Marth's, and her ground game is at an obvious loss.
I guess Marth has to approach 90% of the time, but that OBVIOUSLY isn't a problem for Marth, or I'm sure he'd be noticed as a much worse character.

 

[Shaya]

Her air game in general isn't really comparable to Marth's

Whilst it isn't as versatile, it's most definitely comparable to us in this match up considering float + move that out ranges our fair.

If you play all aerial against Peach you really shouldn't be winning the match.

 

[Lord Chair]

I think people need to realize the stupidity of Peach' fair.

 

[SkOaRaAn]

She can use her neutral air to get out of situations, since it's pretty fast. Also, after she uses f-air, she'll probably use her slap or any other tilt, so you would have to spam your up to get out of that one. :0

 

[Shaya]

whilst neutral air is fast it doesn't have the range to compete with a general spacing marth.

her nairing oos on the other hand may be of more common issue.

 

[VibeSlyph]

Peach's aerial game just doesn't cut it in this MU, IMO.
She can float, which is a +, and her Fair is a bit longer than ours, but on the other hand, a lot of her aerials can't get inside. She doesn't have as quick of aerial momentum as we do, and doesn't rack damage as quick with her aerial combos on us, because what are the chances that we're going to let her inside of our space to land a dair? Kinda slim, compared to a lot of other characters.

Mu 60/40 Marth, imo.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

A friend of mine is starting to get pretty decent with Marth so I'll try and give some input...

Marth outranges Peach and has good/fast aerials which already poses problems for her. Your Fair will beat out any direct aerials she uses

I say direct because I find myself counterattacking Marth rather than attacking him. Marth tends to move his body towards the direction of his aerial and his attacks (minus Nair) all have hitboxes that come out very fast but there's noticeable time when Marth is stuck out after his aerial (and indeed attacks) has been used. Granted, its not very long and you guys always autocancel your aerials back onto the ground very quickly but its still there. As Peach I try to abuse this by getting an attack in after Marth has attacked. I'm positive that a Marth main (Havok I think?) said this ages ago aswell so hopefully I'm not talking rubbish

The problem with this is that Marths I fight do exactly the same thing lol. They try to attack after I attack which is a problem for Peach because her Fair is slower than Marth's Fair and her Nair/Bair don't have enough range to hit Marth if he's got his spacing right. Keep your spacing good throughout the whole match otherwise you'll get punished for stuff hitting Peach's shield by a Turnip or Jab if you're really clumsy

D Tilt her if she looks like she's going to Glide Toss a Turnip at you from afar or if she's used an aerial (probably Fair) and the hitbox has gone and she's landing, I think Mr.R does it a few times to Leon in those videos. Maybe its just me because my game involves a lot of OoS Turniping (and therefore shielding) but I find Shield Breaker stressful to be around because Marth can mix it up now and then and cripple my shield with it

Up + B OoS will stop poorly spaced moves but be wary using it when Peach is at lower percents because she'll punish you on the way down (you probably all knew that already though xD). Marth's Tilts are very irritating for Peach - F Tilt will stop her Fair if it catches her hurtbox underneath the crown hitbox and Up Tilt will do a similar thing. I try and bait these and punish afterwards

Ledge play can really shift the favour to the player dramatically. Peach's Turnips provide an extra obstacle for Marth when recovering. A favourite of mine is to D Throw the Turnip near the ledge so it clips Marth as he tries to sweetspot the ledge with his Up + B, giving time for Peach to grab the ledge and avoid Marth's Up + B as he falls to his doom. Leon does it to Mr.R I think
Edit: If Peach looks like she's trying to do this, Up + B premeturly because Marth will NOT get back onstage if she successfully carries out the D Throw gimp. The premture Up + B may also smack Peach out of the air whilst she's trying to throw the Turnip

On the other hand, when Peach is on the ledge, getting back up is an absolute nightmare for her. Marth outranges all everything she does. Stand a distance away and get ready to react accordingly to swat her away whatever she tries to do. D Tilt 2nd jumped Fairs/Nairs back onto the ledge, counter anything really obvious, smack her with an aerial if she tries to jump and smash her if she does a get up/roll up. This is so much worse for Peach when she's above 100% because her ledge get ups become slower and even more vunerable


If the match up is in anyones favour its definitly Marth's because of range issues. Thats not to say Peach is helpless if you ask me, she just has to play very defensivly and patiently. To summarise what I personally feel, Marth has the tools to counter what Peach throws at him but Peach has the tools to punish the things that Marth throws at her

Hope that makes sense...and that I'm not talking rubbish :x

Edit 2: Oh cripes I forgot - Peach's attack will outrange what Marth does...at leas the 2nd hit of her dash attack will. Its a good spacing tool so don't get careless with your moves and get hit by it because the 2nd hit pops you up in the air and gives Peach time to do something

And Bone Walking allows Peach to safely pull up a Turnip and get away from Marth

 

[Lord Chair]

@Vibe

To think that Peach depends on her dair in order to do anything ESSENTIAL in her game is rather short-sighted. Peach' assets are geared towards combos/strings, yes, but her game does not revolve around them.

A lot of her aerials can't get inside? What? She doesn't need to get inside, she needs to have control. Not only you're kinda off on your reasoning, the fact that you just hand 2 (minor) aspects of a MU and declare it 60-40 is a bit... unnecessary.

 

[Nicole]

...her Nair/Bair don't have enough range to hit Marth if he's got his spacing right.

While Bair doesn't have enough range, it does have enough speed + range to beat out Marth's Fair before he does it. You just have to bait him into doing a move. Marth likes to do Fair, especially when he sees Peach floating, so it's not like baiting him is really hard. Retreating Fair can't be punished as easily, though. It's my opinon that Peach's never Bair enough against Marth, and get hit a whole lot trying to do their Fair early enough to outrange Marth's Fair. With her Bair, Peach can actually take Marth head on in the air alot of the time instead of being a ***** and running away all the time.

You're right about Dash attack though Rick, I totally forgot about it and it's a good way to hit Marth out of the air from the ground.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I was called in here for this. I was gonna just let the others discuss this without me getting involed cause I don't think I agree with what most Peach players think about this match up. Idk where to start.

 

[VibeSlyph]

@Vibe

To think that Peach depends on her dair in order to do anything ESSENTIAL in her game is rather short-sighted. Peach' assets are geared towards combos/strings, yes, but her game does not revolve around them.

A lot of her aerials can't get inside? What? She doesn't need to get inside, she needs to have control. Not only you're kinda off on your reasoning, the fact that you just hand 2 (minor) aspects of a MU and declare it 60-40 is a bit... unnecessary.

Well then, explain to me how she can have control, if like I said earlier, her ground game doesn't hurt us that badly. Her turnips aren't that bad TBH, if a scrub like me can avoid them.

Also, if her assets are geared towards combos and strings, and we're able to take that away, doesn't that mean we have an advantage?

And I'm sorry I didn't feel like writing a wall of text to state my opinion. I just wanted to make what I thought short and sweet, and then just get to it.

 

[Lord Chair]

Taking away an advantage doesn't mean you have an advantage, it only means you have less of a disadvantage.

Having said that, I should note the stupidity of Peach' spacing game. Which is build around neither turnips nor her ground game.

I no longer play Marth so you won't see any walls of text coming from me. My view on the MU is completely biased because I've only seen 2 good Peaches playing against 1 good Marth, and none of those players really think the MU is heavily in Marth's favor. I have spectated Aqua vs Ramin, in which Aqua severely got his buttocks demolished, and I have seen Leon vs Ramin, in which nothing really seemed to confirm any grave advantage in Marth's favor.

I'd say, the most obvious aspect of this matchup should be Peach' (in)ability to outspace Marth's air game, clearly opinions on that matter are rather divided. If anyone experienced in the matchup could give a complete overlook of the spacing aspect of this matchup, it'd be kind of interesting.

 

[Anaky]

Hahah why have u got matches of me in there? Thats when i first started using Marth, i think it was my first tourney with him after i quit Toon Link.

Im Trio3 btw i changed my name.

 

[VibeSlyph]

@LC.

It still means that your taking away something that could change the match.

Also, in that case, I'd like to see more peaches opinions on this, since they would know their own spacing game, much better than us.

 

[Dark.Pch]

BY FAR my biggest asset in this match is ftilt. It angles perfectly for every float cancel approach peach makes. Everytime she takes to the air, ftilt will beat it.

And is things like this that Peach should be floating so much. If Peach short/full hops to a Dair, she beats that. And for this, you best off jabbing

Speaking of her fair. It's one of her killing moves. Dark Peach always preaches about how important it is for the peach player to save fair til marth is at kill percent. That's not always the case as it's basically spammed from what I've seen in any recent vids. If it's a move she uses all the time, I usually end up living 150+ every stock from it being so stale. Usmash/fsmash are her next best killing moves, but you shouldn't be hit by those unless she caught you making a mistake.

If Fair is spammed. That is not a character flawed of dealing with the match up. That is the Peach players fault. Peach does NOT, yes, does NOT need to be spamming that move against ANYONE in this game. Its a typicalthing and play for Peach to use that move so much. Figfht a Peach that saves her moves, you are not living at 150 again.

And if you get caught with her Fsmash, it has nothing to do with mistakes. It's all about spacing moves and pressure lead to spacing. Or evasion leading to spacing. Also attacks linked to smash attacks. And for Upsmash, there is a way to clap people with it. People just never set it up correctly . But its not a simply thing ether. I have one slick method to land a easy upsmash. I just never think to doing it. Now I'll keep it in mind. And it's not hard ether.

Peach is HORRIBLE when on the ledge, especially after 100%. This is a matchup where you can get tons of free damage from punishing her ledge options. Ledge hop -> float canceled fair/dair is something to watch out for, but shield -> fair/uair takes care of that.

While it is a pain to get back on the stage from the ledge, it is not as serious as you said here. Peach has a lil trick called floatlanding. It's where She Jumps off the ledge, and instantly floats from it. Now when she starts floating, you ley go of your float quicky. and it looksa like she did a quick get it. Which means you can do anything you want from the ledge. And you still keep a Few Frames of invic frames. So its like I can get off the stage like this and you do an up-B and I won't get hit.

Next, I can hop in the ledge to a Fair, and if done right, I can auto cancel it so it wont lag and do what I want. So I can Fair to a Jab, grab or roll/side step of you wanna up-B, jab, etc. So if the Peach just jumps off the stage and floats a Few feet over, yea, fair/upair ends this. But is they do what I just said here, Marth players are gonna be upset.

In Mr.R vs Leon Game 1, Ramin used breversal counter from under the stage when peach used her umbrella to grab the ledge. Is it guarunteed? Also, does anyone know if marth can drop from the ledge to counter as shes recovering, or will she autograb the ledge first? Kinda like what marth does to drill rush or toon link.

I am not sure if that is official.

Also, if Peach up-B away from the stage going towards it, this be a stupid thing for Marth to do. Is is mostly liekly not gonna hit me or make it back. And if he gets hit with the parasol from the stop, he won't hit Peach with a counter. Peach has a tall hiotbox from the top. And she is under it, you have to take her out.

The reason Peach stands a chance in this game is because of her turnips obviously. I have lots of trouble vs them. Pokemon Stadium is a nightmare for me when she's on the other side, pulling til a stitch face comes out.

This is where you are wrong. Peach gives lots of characters in this game for much more than just turnips. Thinking Peach is only good cause of turnips is a simple minded way to thing to say.

- Evasion
- Invasion
- Ledge options
- Pressure
- Recovering
- Floating
- Range
- All the techs this character has.

She also has a low percent combo. Dair -> Dair -> Uair -> Utilt. When she gets it off on me at 0%, I see myself at 42% instantly and in a horrible spot. Do any peach mains know if marth is able to get out of this effectively? Marth is usally too high to upb.

Learn to SDI

The 2 peach players that I play on a regular basis cannot stand Yoshi's Island. Bloodhawk took Silly Kyle there as well. Why is that stage bad for her?

If the Peach likes to groundfloat alot, it sucks. Otherwise, no it is not.

Peach's aerial game just doesn't cut it in this MU, IMO.
She can float, which is a +, and her Fair is a bit longer than ours, but on the other hand, a lot of her aerials can't get inside. She doesn't have as quick of aerial momentum as we do, and doesn't rack damage as quick with her aerial combos on us, because what are the chances that we're going to let her inside of our space to land a dair? Kinda slim, compared to a lot of other characters.

Mu 60/40 Marth, imo.

Peach Mair air attack to get inside is her Bair.You have a 2 frame advantae with your Fair. So Bair is the best option to get inside. Spacing this move can also screw over Marth. And while we are using this to get in, we have Peach favorite kill option fresh, with is Fair. Now if the Marth uses Nair, Fair is the best option to clap him out of it. That and a turnip to the head. Since he leans his body when doing it. Thus why Peach Fair is the best options to hit him.

It does not matter what character you are, you can be the godly meta, Peach can rack up damage on you. To get inside Marth when he is spacing his moves would be turnips. Turnips slow him down and can react openings. of you see a Peach trying to get at you witl floating Dairs and all that typical stuff, Marth ends her. Method of the turnips is to ethier get damage so you would have to approach, or slow you down for better chances to get inside or bait openings. And then go for the damage. With a turnip, I can land any aerial on you that I want. And all I need is one turnip.

Good turnip play can screw over Marth. And no, I am not talking about grab it, then go and toss it right away to a Fair>jab. People gone seen that typical stuff to many times. Talking about Smart use hjere. Like Maybe attack first then using it. Or holding it for a while and space your air moves on the ground with ground floating. I can go on with this forever.

And don't sleep on her ground game. it is just as good as her air. It's just most Peach players loves to be in the air alot and thier ground game isnot that good. or hardly have one.
The best way for Peach to get at Marth is the ground. Cause Peach has more of a ground game than Marth does. Then set him up in the air and get him from there. Since Marth is bad when one is under him.

 

[Shaya]

Cause Peach has more of a ground game than Marth does. Then set him up in the air and get him from there. Since Marth is bad when one is under him.

I agree with most everything else you've said thus far,
but more of a ground game than Marth? really? Are you sure?

Marth has an amazing fox trot game,
which he can couple with pivot grabs or dancing blades;
he has dtilt (which most characters can only roll away against), his smashes whilst laggy come out fast and are long ranged. He also has dolphin slash...

Like the only notable thing I see Peach having that's good is her 2 frame jab and glide tossing, otherwise most other things she has we outclass... that's just my opinion though.

 

[Zankoku]

Peach's fsmash and dsmash are less punishable on block or whiff than most of Marth's ground moveset, I suppose.

Then again, Marth is pretty well known for having the most ridiculously low margin of error of the entire high tier.

 

[Zankoku]

LOL I just noticed that there are vids of my Peach in this thread.

What the hell?!?!

 

[Dark.Pch]

I agree with most everything else you've said thus far,
but more of a ground game than Marth? really? Are you sure?

Marth has an amazing fox trot game,
which he can couple with pivot grabs or dancing blades;
he has dtilt (which most characters can only roll away against), his smashes whilst laggy come out fast and are long ranged. He also has dolphin slash...

Like the only notable thing I see Peach having that's good is her 2 frame jab and glide tossing, otherwise most other things she has we outclass... that's just my opinion though.

I can ground float to bring my air game to the ground and at pressure to it. Her DTilr is also a great tool for her ground game. For one thing, you got the Dtilt Slide. It helps with my spacing and evasion. You get 2 things out of this. Really three cause you can counter attack. This is what I do with it:

Dtilt>slide>Jab
Dtilt>slide>Fsmash
Dtilt>slide>Ground Float>Fair
Dtilt>slide>Ground Float>Nair
Dtilt>slide>Turnip>Glide toss>Dtilt>slide> w/e you want after
Dtilt>slide>Toad (mindgame material)
Dtilt>slide>reverse bair
Dtilt>slide>Dair (if they come to you and wanna attack from the ground.)
Dtilt>slide>Dtilt>Slide>w/e

All this leads to many things and can be mixed and match. You can get pressure, spacing, evasion, and counter attacking all at once. And thanks to Peach's range, It would be hard for people to touch you. This is really effective against fast characters. This one thing improves Peach spacing by alot to create this annoying wall.

Peach also has bone walking where she can slide and pull a turnip. Se can do it from running or standing in place. And slide backwards whi.e still facining foward. Or tun the other way, and slide back. Or (yea, any kind of slide comination while stading still or moving she can do.

And there is one more thing. You talked about Marths fox trot. Peach has a lil trick with her float. Peach can run and then do a float, then quick cancel it.

Look at 2:52:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKan7F2Bxqo

I can pretty much do anything from this. So I can run, then do this then anything I want instantly. I don't need to wait for any animation from a dash or even fox trotting to end. This is something really useful but Peach players never tend to use it. You can use for nearly the same SMART uses as wave dashing in melee. If you played melee competively, you know what I am talking about. Andwhich this, I can eliminate the 7 frame shield drop to do something out the shield. I do this out of shield and I get maybe 2 frames before I can do ANYTHING out of shield. No character in this game has that option.

And then you have her jab game which I am pretty sure I don't need to explain to you.

 

[Lord Chair]

Hey my Peach CPU does that...

But I digress, Peach' (GOD IS IT PEACH' OR PEACH'S) ground game is rather fine. I dare say better than Marth's, just a little bit more situational (ie, not ololol I can punish > DB, ololol I predict spotdodge > DB, ololol there's range and they're shielding > dtilt).

 

[Zankoku]

Using the dtilt slide is more of a gimmick than a solid tool... the startup of dtilt is already rather slow to just throw out on its own, so it has to be performed from a distance, and then you need to somehow get the opponent to approach you AFTER it's done when Peach is historically good at having low cooldown. Also, a float into landing takes a total of... 11 frames, I believe.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Do we have any visible proof that peach's fair is longer than our's?


Yeah, Kaffei doesnt believe me when I tell him that Peach outranges Marth's Fair. And I showed him Praxis quote but hes still being inquisitive.

 

[Kaffei]

Can anyone prove to me that Peach's F-Air is longer than Marth's Fair?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Using the dtilt slide is more of a gimmick than a solid tool... the startup of dtilt is already rather slow to just throw out on its own, so it has to be performed from a distance, and then you need to somehow get the opponent to approach you AFTER it's done when Peach is historically good at having low cooldown. Also, a float into landing takes a total of... 11 frames, I believe.

Dtilt is not a move you can just use like that. It takes spacing and good observation to use. It is indeed a tool that helps with spacing, evasion and counter attacking. And is one of her better assists for her ground game. people just worry about how slow it is and are afraid to use it. or can't use it at all.

And I dont know what you are talking about with float to landing. If you to that float hop I showed in my video, it is not no 11 frames (assuming that is what you are taling about.

Can anyone prove to me that Peach's F-Air is longer than Marth's Fair?

Look on youtube for Marth hit bubbles and Peach hit bubbles. Her Fair is longer. This has been know and proven for a while now.

 

[TheLightningViper]

Shaya Edit:

Hello, welcome to the boards.
I don't like "censorship" in these matters, but your information and opinions are blatantly wrong and come with little knowledge/experience.
To avoid this topic being derailed by this post I have edited it out.

Players should avoid giving input in topics such as these that they have little experience in.
If you ask yourself the question "Do I have much experience against X [Marth or Peach]?" and the answer is no, please avoid posting as they only serve to build ignorance.

Thank you,
Shaya.

 

[Zankoku]

Countering is what everyone does in Brawl. As far as countering goes, the only things dtilt actually has going for it are the above-average range and slide back when IASA'd.

And I dont know what you are talking about with float to landing. If you to that float hop I showed in my video, it is not no 11 frames (assuming that is what you are taling about.

It is no less than 9 frames of lag, forgot that you won't be fastfalling from zero height.
5 frames for Peach to start up her jump
1 "dead" airborne frame
1 frame to drop
2 frames landing lag

 

[Dark.Pch]

that can't be. I was told that it takes 2 frames to jump for all characters.

 

[Zankoku]

Whoever told you that is ****ing delusional. The fastest jump in the game has four frames of startup.
Hell, the fastest jump in Melee has three frames of startup.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yea, cause back when I was doing the frame work on how Peach could stop characters from planking, I assumed it was 6 frames. So I was tree frames off. I knew something did not make sense. Then screw the shield use for it then. Everything else I said about it still applies.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Can anyone prove to me that Peach's F-Air is longer than Marth's Fair?

This is something I've been questioning myself - if her Fair his longer than Marth's then its certainly not by that much and certainly not long enough to head on tackle Marth's Fair which is much much quicker

Also Dark, I'm not really sure D Tilt is such a great idea vs Marth considering his F Tilt/D Tilt outspeeds/outranges it and Peach's D Tilt causes her to lean forward to begin with...it just sounds like a chance for Marth to F Smash you. And even if the F Smash misses and you slide back and avoid it, what are you going to punish the F Smash with?

I agree with Shaya that Marth's ground game is definitly better against Peach's ground game which is why I personally would be in the air to punish the lag on Marth's moves whilst avoiding them or at least pulling up a Turnip and shielding and throwing it after Marth has used a move (but that goes for the ground and the air)

If Marth goes in the air, Peach stays on the ground and fights him off with Turnips and Dash Attack. If Marth stays on the ground, Peach goes in the air and baits Fair or stays on the ground and counters stuff with Turnips. If Marth gets clusmy and Fairs her sheild right above her, she could jump out and Nair him I guess

To me anyway, the idea of this match up is that Marth plays defensivly and pokes Peach in spots where he outranges her whilst Peach gets a Turnip and tries to poke the open spots that Marth leaves after his moves with a Turnip. The idea of the Turnip is that it provides an extremely fast/long range OoS attack on the ground whilst avoiding shield drop lag or using her aerials. Its not an ordinary projectile because it travels very slowly over long distances and disappears if hit with something or if its been out for a long time. I find its best use is to either provide an obstacle up close to compliment Peach's close quarters combat or to create an extra hazard for the opponent when she's edgeguarding, which is something Marth needs to watch out for

In my limited experience, I find myself in my shield a heck of a lot (which is why Shield Breaker causes me a lot of stress lol) and punishing Marth's moves with Turnips and if I'm not in my shield, I'm either poking Marth with Dash Attack or running/Bonewalking away to get a Turnip. Marth's main concerns in this match up will be what Peach is doing with her Turnips, be it countering or gimping

 

[Kaffei]

Curious: Doesn't Marth's F-Air technically out-range Peach's F-Air because of Marth's disjoint?

 

[clowsui]

unless peach's fair is also disjointed, which i'm pretty sure it is

 

[Kaffei]

unless peach's fair is also disjointed, which i'm pretty sure it is

Doesn't Marth have the longer disjoint?

 

[xxmoosexx]

Just drop it already Kaffei. If your looking for some technicality it doesn't change anything.

I didnt even knew Peach had a disjoint. Must look into this! *flies off on Lady Rainicorn to find the answers to everything*