sna ke
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Match-Up Rediscussion #5! Snake
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
stingers
Smash Obsessed
just do the same thing you do in every other matchup
jump around and look pretty
jump around and look pretty
Let's get some real input.
Aggro works well, camping doesn't in my experience. SH fair > snake's ftilt, though you have to space perfectly. Don't use dtilt, i actually find ftilt to be better here even though it's not our best poke.
Aggro works well, camping doesn't in my experience. SH fair > snake's ftilt, though you have to space perfectly. Don't use dtilt, i actually find ftilt to be better here even though it's not our best poke.
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
lol I second this. My Marth Dtilt'd my friends Snake and his Utilt'd traded hits with my Dtilt and he won...
o_O
Mr-R
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 2,544
Lets see, I hardly use down tilt against snake, unless hes jumping back to the stage.
I also don't use nair that much against snake,unless hes in the air.
most snakes lure out ff fairs so that they can F tilt u so i guess retreating fairs are better.
Up airs for juggles, though approaching with it isn't smart XD,
f throw/down throw is really good at edge, sets them up in a bad position.
marth dominates snake in the air so getting him in the air with DB is also usefull,
I also don't use nair that much against snake,unless hes in the air.
most snakes lure out ff fairs so that they can F tilt u so i guess retreating fairs are better.
Up airs for juggles, though approaching with it isn't smart XD,
f throw/down throw is really good at edge, sets them up in a bad position.
marth dominates snake in the air so getting him in the air with DB is also usefull,
Darxmarth23
Smash Champion
Without d-tilt your options get more and more limited.
Be postive where his ftilt and u-tilt range is gonna be.
And expect grenades to be in a radius completly around you.
Send sanke up and use as many juggle traps as you possibly can.
....
and don't ever f-air a 'nade. it just looks pitiful.
Be postive where his ftilt and u-tilt range is gonna be.
And expect grenades to be in a radius completly around you.
Send sanke up and use as many juggle traps as you possibly can.
....
and don't ever f-air a 'nade. it just looks pitiful.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
I still think dtilt is effective here. Maybe not as much as in other matches, but it works.
If you dtilt and he ftilts at the same time, he will win, but most Snakes won't just throw out random ftilts from a neutral position since it isn't safe on block. Dtilting him as he lands is ****, and if he shields a well spaced dtilt you have just as good a trap on him as you do anyone else.
I'll give more later, just had to throw that out.
If you dtilt and he ftilts at the same time, he will win, but most Snakes won't just throw out random ftilts from a neutral position since it isn't safe on block. Dtilting him as he lands is ****, and if he shields a well spaced dtilt you have just as good a trap on him as you do anyone else.
I'll give more later, just had to throw that out.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
I thought dtilt vs ftilt was a clash? I could be wrong.
Also the problem is getting him in the air.
If we could find a reliable way to get past his stupid nade camping + ftilt spam and get him in the air, I don't think this match would be so bad.
Anyways, when a Snake spamming ftilts on your aerial approach too much, SHAD cross-up on him. I remember that working for me sometimes against decent snakes. Oh and glide tossing grenades is dumb, don't do it. Every time I do it either I glide toss into the explosion, it explodes as I'm glide tossing, or Snake does his little trick where the grenade drops from my hand somehow and it explodes on me.
Has anything really even changed? Matchup is still, get snake off the ground. Until you do, you'll get outcamped.
∫unk
Smash Master
marth's roll sucks but don't roll vs snake ever
and don't get grabbed you'll get *****
it's best if you play snake a little bit and understand his limitations, especially in the air. stuff like knowing just how long he has to up b before he can do any action is really important.
and don't get grabbed you'll get *****
it's best if you play snake a little bit and understand his limitations, especially in the air. stuff like knowing just how long he has to up b before he can do any action is really important.
It's easy for Marth to lose this match up, but I'd still ponder towards even.
When I win against snakes, it's when I play patiently. I will -not- commit to anything until I can abuse him in the air, or know I'll get a dancing blade.
Challenging Ftilt is silly. And as someone said the best way to do it is to appropriately space fairs. You can abuse nair (timing the stronger final hit) to go inbetween the two hits or (it's hard[er]) after the second...
We abuse his landing with pivot grabs, uair to utilt sets up 'love' from early to late.
Pierce says that fthrow cg on Snake isn't real, but whilst it's been a while since ive done frame by frame stuff, I was pretty sure it was real.
You have +11 advantage at low percents with fthrow (2 frames until he can jump, 4 for air dodge...), dash grab is 9. Fthrow to the ledge to a dtilt or run off stage fair, at low percents this will get snake to 60% or higher. If the snake is stupid you can db downwards at the ledge and they can't avoid it, hopefully you take their jump... (If you take their jump at low percents here, you're almost given a stock).
Fthrow to fsmash requires stutter stepping, pretty sure they can't avoid it, but it's a different timing and awkward.
Dtilt is -great- for setting up if you can get the hit. Its comboing into dancing blade until like... forever. And unlike MK's dtilt, if snake gets hit by it, he can't punish it with ftilt...
Jab clashes with ftilt, and it will give you a -slight- frame advantage (if you're close enough to db).
Use db1 to give you extra height if you hit snake offstage and (when won't he?) he recovers high.
Grabs are really important here, and port priority can be a bit lame because of it. Fthrow is fast and should be safe for nades. It will be one of your major ground approaches.
You don't want to get grabbed, which makes uair usage annoying, and you don't want to get cross overs too easily predicted.
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Appropriate spacing with aerials should never have nades blow up on hit against Snake. Including juggling with uair.
Fair and nair can easily be used to avoid nade explosions through his various 'options'.
You don't want Snake cooking nades, and if he is, that's when you can't get close. You want to apply pressure with zah various mindgames to get him to get rid of his nades, you want to rush in when he just pulls one. There's two of them [nades], but one airdodge catch of a chucked nade to an instant throw away into grabs or fairs is great.
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The platform on Smashville gives you the 'auto' patience you need. Approaching, 'camping', juggling, everything.
Battlefield can be great, but a Snake that's AMAZING at usage of ALL OF HIS GOD **** EXPLOSIONS will make battlefield insanely hard, but you can do a lot of ****** when you get things going...
When I win against snakes, it's when I play patiently. I will -not- commit to anything until I can abuse him in the air, or know I'll get a dancing blade.
Challenging Ftilt is silly. And as someone said the best way to do it is to appropriately space fairs. You can abuse nair (timing the stronger final hit) to go inbetween the two hits or (it's hard[er]) after the second...
We abuse his landing with pivot grabs, uair to utilt sets up 'love' from early to late.
Pierce says that fthrow cg on Snake isn't real, but whilst it's been a while since ive done frame by frame stuff, I was pretty sure it was real.
You have +11 advantage at low percents with fthrow (2 frames until he can jump, 4 for air dodge...), dash grab is 9. Fthrow to the ledge to a dtilt or run off stage fair, at low percents this will get snake to 60% or higher. If the snake is stupid you can db downwards at the ledge and they can't avoid it, hopefully you take their jump... (If you take their jump at low percents here, you're almost given a stock).
Fthrow to fsmash requires stutter stepping, pretty sure they can't avoid it, but it's a different timing and awkward.
Dtilt is -great- for setting up if you can get the hit. Its comboing into dancing blade until like... forever. And unlike MK's dtilt, if snake gets hit by it, he can't punish it with ftilt...
Jab clashes with ftilt, and it will give you a -slight- frame advantage (if you're close enough to db).
Use db1 to give you extra height if you hit snake offstage and (when won't he?) he recovers high.
Grabs are really important here, and port priority can be a bit lame because of it. Fthrow is fast and should be safe for nades. It will be one of your major ground approaches.
You don't want to get grabbed, which makes uair usage annoying, and you don't want to get cross overs too easily predicted.
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Appropriate spacing with aerials should never have nades blow up on hit against Snake. Including juggling with uair.
Fair and nair can easily be used to avoid nade explosions through his various 'options'.
You don't want Snake cooking nades, and if he is, that's when you can't get close. You want to apply pressure with zah various mindgames to get him to get rid of his nades, you want to rush in when he just pulls one. There's two of them [nades], but one airdodge catch of a chucked nade to an instant throw away into grabs or fairs is great.
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The platform on Smashville gives you the 'auto' patience you need. Approaching, 'camping', juggling, everything.
Battlefield can be great, but a Snake that's AMAZING at usage of ALL OF HIS GOD **** EXPLOSIONS will make battlefield insanely hard, but you can do a lot of ****** when you get things going...
feardragon64
Smash Champion
From my small personal experience whenever I cp'd a snake to RC, they went mk. Unless you have a **** good reason to think they won't switch, don't cp RC!!!
hippiedude92
Smash Hero
incase all of the marths need to memorize utilt's range.
http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc338/RichBrown57/utiltftw.jpg
Deflino is my personal cp against him.. esp if you know how to spike him consistently. Spacing in this matchup is so vital, you'll be eating ftilts.
http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc338/RichBrown57/utiltftw.jpg
Deflino is my personal cp against him.. esp if you know how to spike him consistently. Spacing in this matchup is so vital, you'll be eating ftilts.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Vs. Snake has recently become one of my favorite MUs. It's so easy.
First and foremost, you must NOT FEAR GRENADES. If you play super cautious because you are worried about grenades, you will lose to good Snakes, because you will miss far too many opportunities. Having a good timing of three seconds so you know when grenades will go off is good. I hate watching two players shield for an entire 50 - 120 frames in fear of a grenade.
Now, Fair is your primary zoning tool. However, Snake is a character you should aim to hit, not zone. You beat out ftilt, but if you mess up you're spacing, you're going to get hit. When Snake pulls a grenade, dtilt is actually a fabulous option, because while Snake is holding the grenade in his hand, dtilt will not set it off. Good spacing and proper move selection will always prevent you from setting off grenades. For this reason, Dancing Blade is not as good in this MU as you might imagine, though it still has amazing useful utility for juggles.
Now, when grabbing Snake, if he's at higher percents, send him into the air. However, at lower and mid percents fthrow is a godsend, because Snake really doesn't have ANY options, and Dancing Blade is virtually guarenteed as a follow up, even if Snake airdodges. His only way to evade it is to jump (LOL) and I have not yet experimented with SHDB to remove all of Snake's options. I've yet to have a Snake pull out a grenade on my after an fthrow, but if they do, just regrab.
Now, a lot of people have difficulty getting Snake into the air. After all, Snake isn't just going to let you grab him, or get a Uair/Utilt, and grenades make Dancing Blade tricky. For this reason, I find extreme success in pressuring Snake to the edge. It's very easy to pressure Snake once you land a single hit, because his options get cut every time you hit him. At 0 out of grab, I fthrow to Dancing Blade (though you can probably fthrow to Nair to Dancing Blade, I just like to keep my stuff on Snake SUPER safe). Remember that since Snake is a heavy weight character, your throws will have slightly more lag on the end of them (odd but sensible feature bites us here).
Once Snake is on the edge, he really doesn't have any reliable way of getting back onto the stage without getting hit. Remember that Snake has 0 landing lag if he's holding a grenade when he lands, so if you're going to punish with dtilt, make sure you swing slightly early to still catch him while he's in the air. Dtilt - Dancing Blade is staple for juggling and pressuring Snake back to the edge.
Now, when you hit Snake offstage, many Snake's like to jump and UpB immediately to escape high. This is your opportunity to Fair Snake, so he doesn't get the bonus of rising super fast. Dairing him while he's not close will be easy. If Snake goes low and tries to C4 himself, footstool.
Now, smart Snakes will recover by going far out, C4ing themselves out of your range, and then UpBing again far above the stage. This is obviously where you set up your juggle. Jump as to Uair Snake. If they pull a grenade, you should space the Uair to tip Snake, and it should not set off the grenade. Be cautious of FF Bairs, and wait for airdodges, but not too long.
Obviously, standard punishing applies if Snake tries to airdodge to the ground in front of you. Expect Snake to live to high percentages, and don't worry about staling your smash attack, be more concerned with racking up damage. If Snake's at 140%, you can refresh half your moveset with a grab and pummeling, and rack up a lot of damage, while putting Snake in a bad place. This is your kill set up. Usmash doesn't kill until over 140% anyway, so don't worry about staling it.
Unless Snake reads a roll (and rolling is not generally a good idea vs. Snake, Fair is almost always better unless you need to evade a grenade or something) or just does something amazing, you really shouldn't get hit by Utilt. When you hit around 95% (you should ban Halberd), then you know Snake will be looking to use this move. There isn't really a good reason to get hit by it.
Your worst enemy in this MU is actually Dash Attack. If you try to space Snake instead of simply hitting him, he can easily break zoning with a DA. It's much like Phantasm in this sense, for those of you with Falco experience, but it's actually much easier to punish. Snake players are away that Marth's Fair wrecks them, and it's easy to pick up on DA patterns. If you want a safe way to punish it without leaving yourself open if you guess wrong, simply jump backwards and FFNair. Jab is also an okay option.
Another huge reason why Dancing Blade isn't great in this MU is because it's transcendent. Normally, this is a life-saver for us, because it has great range and we ignore other characters priority with it's blinding speed. However, in this MU, Snake has a more powerful move with equal speed and range (ftilt). If Dancing Blade and Ftilt trade, you will be at disadvantage, because Snake's ftilt has more hitstun than DB1. If you use dtilt or jab and trade, either jab repeatedly to block additional ftilt attempts, or just shield. UpB is too risky in case your opponent shields. Either way, Dancing Blade should ONLY be used to punish during trapping, or finish a combo.
Dtilt is an excellent move. As I said before, you can use it to prevent Snake from landing with good timing, and if Snake pulls a nade on the ground, it's still a safe poke (though a Fair does good as well.) Shield breaker is amazing for obvious reasons.
If you jump out after Snake, and he manages to get away on the cypher, using Breversal shield breaker can help you get back to the stage faster.
If Snake is Cyphering and he's out of range of a Dair but still in range for Fair, you can UpB in a similar fashion to MK. You'll hit the cypher (make sure to DI it appropriately). It can potentially kill, but is just good for dealing more damage mostly. If you don't use your second jump, it can actually set up for a spike if you properly DI the cypher.
Two super important tricks to fighting Snake are these:
A) Pivot grab his fall to the ground at the front of him. Snake can't do anything. Bair hit's behind him, and this pretty much catches all his options. Then Uthrow.
B) If Snake drops low, and then jumps, just grab the edge. Pay attention to the way Snake's like to grab the edge. Snake's don't want to use UpB, so they'll grab the edge when they can. Hogging a jump to the edge is an easy spike after, so don't try and dtilt them, because they're good at spacing a jump to the ledge. Just hog, and then if they go up, punish with Uair from the ledge.
I think that Snake vs. Marth is probably even right now, and my opinion on it totters either way depending on the day. At Snes I MMed Ally, and I won game one, but he beat me game two and two stocked me game three. I should've beaten Jesiah IMO, but I SDed (johns, so what). Other than that, I've pretty much been ****** all the Snakes I've played, (I haven't fought Fatal in singles yet but he ***** me at in doubles with ADHD, I beat Razer in friendlies at Genesis in Singles and Doubles.)
Just make the right reads, and play a smart safe game, without fearing Grenades too much. Oh, don't pick them up. If you do, shield unless you have ample time to throw them away.
First and foremost, you must NOT FEAR GRENADES. If you play super cautious because you are worried about grenades, you will lose to good Snakes, because you will miss far too many opportunities. Having a good timing of three seconds so you know when grenades will go off is good. I hate watching two players shield for an entire 50 - 120 frames in fear of a grenade.
Now, Fair is your primary zoning tool. However, Snake is a character you should aim to hit, not zone. You beat out ftilt, but if you mess up you're spacing, you're going to get hit. When Snake pulls a grenade, dtilt is actually a fabulous option, because while Snake is holding the grenade in his hand, dtilt will not set it off. Good spacing and proper move selection will always prevent you from setting off grenades. For this reason, Dancing Blade is not as good in this MU as you might imagine, though it still has amazing useful utility for juggles.
Now, when grabbing Snake, if he's at higher percents, send him into the air. However, at lower and mid percents fthrow is a godsend, because Snake really doesn't have ANY options, and Dancing Blade is virtually guarenteed as a follow up, even if Snake airdodges. His only way to evade it is to jump (LOL) and I have not yet experimented with SHDB to remove all of Snake's options. I've yet to have a Snake pull out a grenade on my after an fthrow, but if they do, just regrab.
Now, a lot of people have difficulty getting Snake into the air. After all, Snake isn't just going to let you grab him, or get a Uair/Utilt, and grenades make Dancing Blade tricky. For this reason, I find extreme success in pressuring Snake to the edge. It's very easy to pressure Snake once you land a single hit, because his options get cut every time you hit him. At 0 out of grab, I fthrow to Dancing Blade (though you can probably fthrow to Nair to Dancing Blade, I just like to keep my stuff on Snake SUPER safe). Remember that since Snake is a heavy weight character, your throws will have slightly more lag on the end of them (odd but sensible feature bites us here).
Once Snake is on the edge, he really doesn't have any reliable way of getting back onto the stage without getting hit. Remember that Snake has 0 landing lag if he's holding a grenade when he lands, so if you're going to punish with dtilt, make sure you swing slightly early to still catch him while he's in the air. Dtilt - Dancing Blade is staple for juggling and pressuring Snake back to the edge.
Now, when you hit Snake offstage, many Snake's like to jump and UpB immediately to escape high. This is your opportunity to Fair Snake, so he doesn't get the bonus of rising super fast. Dairing him while he's not close will be easy. If Snake goes low and tries to C4 himself, footstool.
Now, smart Snakes will recover by going far out, C4ing themselves out of your range, and then UpBing again far above the stage. This is obviously where you set up your juggle. Jump as to Uair Snake. If they pull a grenade, you should space the Uair to tip Snake, and it should not set off the grenade. Be cautious of FF Bairs, and wait for airdodges, but not too long.
Obviously, standard punishing applies if Snake tries to airdodge to the ground in front of you. Expect Snake to live to high percentages, and don't worry about staling your smash attack, be more concerned with racking up damage. If Snake's at 140%, you can refresh half your moveset with a grab and pummeling, and rack up a lot of damage, while putting Snake in a bad place. This is your kill set up. Usmash doesn't kill until over 140% anyway, so don't worry about staling it.
Unless Snake reads a roll (and rolling is not generally a good idea vs. Snake, Fair is almost always better unless you need to evade a grenade or something) or just does something amazing, you really shouldn't get hit by Utilt. When you hit around 95% (you should ban Halberd), then you know Snake will be looking to use this move. There isn't really a good reason to get hit by it.
Your worst enemy in this MU is actually Dash Attack. If you try to space Snake instead of simply hitting him, he can easily break zoning with a DA. It's much like Phantasm in this sense, for those of you with Falco experience, but it's actually much easier to punish. Snake players are away that Marth's Fair wrecks them, and it's easy to pick up on DA patterns. If you want a safe way to punish it without leaving yourself open if you guess wrong, simply jump backwards and FFNair. Jab is also an okay option.
Another huge reason why Dancing Blade isn't great in this MU is because it's transcendent. Normally, this is a life-saver for us, because it has great range and we ignore other characters priority with it's blinding speed. However, in this MU, Snake has a more powerful move with equal speed and range (ftilt). If Dancing Blade and Ftilt trade, you will be at disadvantage, because Snake's ftilt has more hitstun than DB1. If you use dtilt or jab and trade, either jab repeatedly to block additional ftilt attempts, or just shield. UpB is too risky in case your opponent shields. Either way, Dancing Blade should ONLY be used to punish during trapping, or finish a combo.
Dtilt is an excellent move. As I said before, you can use it to prevent Snake from landing with good timing, and if Snake pulls a nade on the ground, it's still a safe poke (though a Fair does good as well.) Shield breaker is amazing for obvious reasons.
If you jump out after Snake, and he manages to get away on the cypher, using Breversal shield breaker can help you get back to the stage faster.
If Snake is Cyphering and he's out of range of a Dair but still in range for Fair, you can UpB in a similar fashion to MK. You'll hit the cypher (make sure to DI it appropriately). It can potentially kill, but is just good for dealing more damage mostly. If you don't use your second jump, it can actually set up for a spike if you properly DI the cypher.
Two super important tricks to fighting Snake are these:
A) Pivot grab his fall to the ground at the front of him. Snake can't do anything. Bair hit's behind him, and this pretty much catches all his options. Then Uthrow.
B) If Snake drops low, and then jumps, just grab the edge. Pay attention to the way Snake's like to grab the edge. Snake's don't want to use UpB, so they'll grab the edge when they can. Hogging a jump to the edge is an easy spike after, so don't try and dtilt them, because they're good at spacing a jump to the ledge. Just hog, and then if they go up, punish with Uair from the ledge.
I think that Snake vs. Marth is probably even right now, and my opinion on it totters either way depending on the day. At Snes I MMed Ally, and I won game one, but he beat me game two and two stocked me game three. I should've beaten Jesiah IMO, but I SDed (johns, so what). Other than that, I've pretty much been ****** all the Snakes I've played, (I haven't fought Fatal in singles yet but he ***** me at in doubles with ADHD, I beat Razer in friendlies at Genesis in Singles and Doubles.)
Just make the right reads, and play a smart safe game, without fearing Grenades too much. Oh, don't pick them up. If you do, shield unless you have ample time to throw them away.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
This has become my most common match-up, and I'm so thankful it is. It made me realize how to maintain pressure while being safe so much better. Always keep your vigilance, you don't want to die around 90% due to a random C4 or mine you forgot about. Everyone else covered so much about what I wanted to say -_- So view this as a little tidbit. By the way, all your upward moves (Uair, Usmash, DB Up) **** in this match-up!
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Eh, using Uair and Dancing Blade is more consistent than using Utilt or Usmash, but take these moves when you get them.
Albert.
Smash Master
I think in this match-up the old saying "read the air-dodge" Is most important.
Like seriously guys.
Like seriously guys.
Mr-R
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Dec 14, 2008
- Messages
- 2,544
Not just THE airdodge, good snakes tend to variate their actions in the air ( attack airdodge etc ) so be PREPARED or his bair is gonna *** u up
M4ge
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
- Messages
- 229
Just leaving my input on the match-up.
Retreating FAirs is the main move I use in this match-up. You have to space them pretty well in order to avoid an FTilt to the face. After a lot of spacing him, he'll either do a DAC to try and space himself again or retreat toward the ledge. From there it gets somewhat easier. You can pressure him with DB in order to force him off the ledge or you can bait an FTilt and then punish with whatever. Anyway, if he shields and falls off the stage, he'll either be on the ledge or off the stage completely. If he's on the ledge, predict his get-up. If he jumps, juggle traps all dai. If he rolls or just stands back up you can force him off again. If he's off the stage completely, you can use DTilt to set him up for a DAir. Juggle traps imo are the best way to rack up damage in this match-up. Try to get these as much as possible.
As for killing, if you can't get him offstage, a UTilt won't kill for a loooong time against a Snake who knows how to DI perfectly. Try and bait anything and go for a Fsmash/Dsmash. Easier said then done, I know, but that's probably the only killing option you have on stage.
That's it for my input.
Retreating FAirs is the main move I use in this match-up. You have to space them pretty well in order to avoid an FTilt to the face. After a lot of spacing him, he'll either do a DAC to try and space himself again or retreat toward the ledge. From there it gets somewhat easier. You can pressure him with DB in order to force him off the ledge or you can bait an FTilt and then punish with whatever. Anyway, if he shields and falls off the stage, he'll either be on the ledge or off the stage completely. If he's on the ledge, predict his get-up. If he jumps, juggle traps all dai. If he rolls or just stands back up you can force him off again. If he's off the stage completely, you can use DTilt to set him up for a DAir. Juggle traps imo are the best way to rack up damage in this match-up. Try to get these as much as possible.
As for killing, if you can't get him offstage, a UTilt won't kill for a loooong time against a Snake who knows how to DI perfectly. Try and bait anything and go for a Fsmash/Dsmash. Easier said then done, I know, but that's probably the only killing option you have on stage.
That's it for my input.
Doomblaze
Smash Journeyman
Is dodging his grenades until he gets pissed off and approaches you a viable strategy? (I.E. on FD, although i would probably ban it). it doesnt really work for me, but ive seen some other characters do it.
I find that D-tilt ***** snake personally, it worked alright against ally (like three times) when i spaced it so i didnt get blown up by nades, and it beats dodgerolls about as well as dancing blade because you can chain them together, possibly into a dancing blade.
I would never kill a snake with utilt, its a fairly poor move overall with lag and such, and i dont want to imagine how many Ftilts i would eat while utilting a snakes shield. Fast falled U air into U tilt usually beats out their airdodge and keeps them in the air though.
I find that D-tilt ***** snake personally, it worked alright against ally (like three times) when i spaced it so i didnt get blown up by nades, and it beats dodgerolls about as well as dancing blade because you can chain them together, possibly into a dancing blade.
I would never kill a snake with utilt, its a fairly poor move overall with lag and such, and i dont want to imagine how many Ftilts i would eat while utilting a snakes shield. Fast falled U air into U tilt usually beats out their airdodge and keeps them in the air though.
∫unk
Smash Master
MikeHAZE vs Ally: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Kc0i6isPLs&feature=related
BacklashMarth
Smash Lord
I notice that a lot of snakes have a habit of shield > spotdodge, probably because their options out of shield arent so great. Since thats the case its just a matter of knowing when they will spot dodge and then going in and netting a free hit/grab. Most of the time if you run into shield just outside of snakes grab range he will shield and if u wait long enough he will spotdodge then likely ftilt you. You can either block the ftilt or just grab him after his spotdodge. Just keep him on his toes after that with pokes and regrabs until u take that stock. Also, if snake full hop nairs and you block it, i belive shieldbreaker will always hit and its safe.
DUB
Smash Lord
I don't know if I read anything about Shield Breakers but they seem to work more often in this matchup. If you have Snake backed up to a ledge while hes trying to camp he may pull a grenade and shield, allowing you to potentially break it. I don't think he would jump but if he did you could just fair him back.
clowsui
Smash Legend
For the people who feel as though Ally wasn't playing his best in that set for some reason or another...
Havok vs. DSF 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fF1mmsz3Tw
Havok vs. DSF 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ9G58GcDyk
Havok vs. DSF 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYftoVomDjU
Havok vs. DSF 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3064t0soPAA
Game 5 is MK v. Marth.
Havok vs. DSF 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fF1mmsz3Tw
Havok vs. DSF 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ9G58GcDyk
Havok vs. DSF 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYftoVomDjU
Havok vs. DSF 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3064t0soPAA
Game 5 is MK v. Marth.
**Havok**
Smash Lord
I play this matchup quite frequently since Hall is my next door neighbor lol.
I agree with Pierce when he said that Dash Attack is the annoying part of the MU, cuz if the snake is smart he'll catch you either jumping to landing. Starts like at %10 and starts lowering but that's not the worst part, its the fact that you might have mistakenly DI incorrectly since you might have not expected the hit, AND you're in the air. Bad position for marth.
Retreating Nair and spacing it sometimes either stops the dash attack or hits snake. But you have to anticipate it.
I also agree with pierce that dancing blade can't be used like in other matches. The safe way to use it is strictly as a punisher, to grab those spotdodges and so forth. If you feel ballsy you can just run up and do it.
Running in this MU is not great becauuuuuse Marth has a slower dash shield so if a snake sees a marth running he can Ftilt in reaction and well you just ate %21 if not a little less.
Grenades shouldn't be a problem, they aren't too burdensome however they can rack up dmg quickly if you get wreckless. Watch out for those snakes that like to walk towards you backwards holding a grenade.
Dtilt HAS TO be spaced correctly otherwise you'll eat an ftilt.
The higher the percent the snake lives to the harder it becomes to kill him, sure we can juggle trap him but as long as hes alive it's not amazing. And as Pierce said a smart snake will just start getting away from the stage and C4 jump to recover high.
At low percents if you can get him to the edge and do something like Jab-jab-dtilt then he'll use his cypher so you can spike him. This doesn't happen too often anymore, so abuse it when you see it.
I use uptilt to kill at like %150 and above to catch an airdodge.
I usually spend the matchup full hopping and fairing or SHFFF to apply pressure. Short hop nair is nice to tip on his shield just to apply some pressure.
hmmm ill add more later.
I agree with Pierce when he said that Dash Attack is the annoying part of the MU, cuz if the snake is smart he'll catch you either jumping to landing. Starts like at %10 and starts lowering but that's not the worst part, its the fact that you might have mistakenly DI incorrectly since you might have not expected the hit, AND you're in the air. Bad position for marth.
Retreating Nair and spacing it sometimes either stops the dash attack or hits snake. But you have to anticipate it.
I also agree with pierce that dancing blade can't be used like in other matches. The safe way to use it is strictly as a punisher, to grab those spotdodges and so forth. If you feel ballsy you can just run up and do it.
Running in this MU is not great becauuuuuse Marth has a slower dash shield so if a snake sees a marth running he can Ftilt in reaction and well you just ate %21 if not a little less.
Grenades shouldn't be a problem, they aren't too burdensome however they can rack up dmg quickly if you get wreckless. Watch out for those snakes that like to walk towards you backwards holding a grenade.
Dtilt HAS TO be spaced correctly otherwise you'll eat an ftilt.
The higher the percent the snake lives to the harder it becomes to kill him, sure we can juggle trap him but as long as hes alive it's not amazing. And as Pierce said a smart snake will just start getting away from the stage and C4 jump to recover high.
At low percents if you can get him to the edge and do something like Jab-jab-dtilt then he'll use his cypher so you can spike him. This doesn't happen too often anymore, so abuse it when you see it.
I use uptilt to kill at like %150 and above to catch an airdodge.
I usually spend the matchup full hopping and fairing or SHFFF to apply pressure. Short hop nair is nice to tip on his shield just to apply some pressure.
hmmm ill add more later.
Megavitamins
Smash Champion
Something I like to do is when Snake (or any char really) is above the edge full hop a U-air and most of the time they double jump into it, setting you up for juggles.
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
It's also really **** to Uair him on a narrow return from the ledge.
ViCTORiOUSViC
Smash Apprentice
Wouldn't utilt be a viable option if Snake is recovering from the ledge?
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
Depends on his ledge recovery option selection.
ViCTORiOUSViC
Smash Apprentice
Can I kno what options to expect? What would a typical Snake do?
Pr0phetic
Dodge the bullets!
A typical Snake would try to land on the stage, forced to the ledge its person dependent, but Utilt covers rolls (even though DB would be better) and empty ledghops.
ViCTORiOUSViC
Smash Apprentice
So utilt would be a better option when it comes to rolls when he lands onstage..ok I think I got this
Now I should practice that
Thanks
Now I should practice that
Thanks
Eternal Yoshi
I've covered ban wars, you know
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Bump.
I should recommend to not get grabbed here.
PSA shows frame data for invincibility frames and Marth's invincibility frames of his front roll from a face plant(like what Snake's down throw puts you in) starts at frame 6.
The victim of Snake's down throw only has a 1 frame advantage.
IF you front roll, he has 5 frames to do whatever to you.
If he's frame perfect he can hit you with a jab or ftilt.
In other words, against a knowledgeable Snake, don't front roll too much from his down throw, or you'll get ftilted.
Yes, i tested this in game and while it isn't easy to filt Marth's front roll from a down throw, it is possible.
For reference, Jab comes out at frame 3 and ftilt comes out at frame 4.
I should recommend to not get grabbed here.
PSA shows frame data for invincibility frames and Marth's invincibility frames of his front roll from a face plant(like what Snake's down throw puts you in) starts at frame 6.
The victim of Snake's down throw only has a 1 frame advantage.
IF you front roll, he has 5 frames to do whatever to you.
If he's frame perfect he can hit you with a jab or ftilt.
In other words, against a knowledgeable Snake, don't front roll too much from his down throw, or you'll get ftilted.
Yes, i tested this in game and while it isn't easy to filt Marth's front roll from a down throw, it is possible.
For reference, Jab comes out at frame 3 and ftilt comes out at frame 4.