Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
;_; Kewkky I've missed you honestly. Especially w/ what's been derailing this thread this past gazillion post.
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Match Up Export: Wolf
- Thread starter Sage JoWii
- Start date
I miss hanging out in SWF, man... I've been so very bored these days.
And to me, Wolf's the only space animal that i feel is closest to even against Kirby. Any even ratio is fine with me, but since we're not doing ratios, I'll just say the MU's even.
Once I get more online time I'll write something up. Ling Ling used to use Wolf a fair bit back in the day, and it was actually very decent since he considered using him as a secondary.
And to me, Wolf's the only space animal that i feel is closest to even against Kirby. Any even ratio is fine with me, but since we're not doing ratios, I'll just say the MU's even.
Once I get more online time I'll write something up. Ling Ling used to use Wolf a fair bit back in the day, and it was actually very decent since he considered using him as a secondary.
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
<_< I feel all the spacies are close to even w/ Kirby. Def. Wolf is the closest to a even even MU, then Fox and Falco probably tying for next (but IMO Fox being the scarier MU of the two).
Staz
Smash Lord
it still applies to sharking wolf in general, and there is no way wolf can hit a properly sharked uair.
also, you said "friends" which pretty much translates to "randoms"
also most kirby mains dont abuse the fact that you can combo the **** out of him, shield grab all his stuff and that theres no point in doing anything but psing wolfs laser becuase he cant do anything to you for that with out getting grabbed for trying
kirbys are so dumb
all wolfs methods of escaping kirbys grab>uair or w/e other grab strings are really predictable and lead to follow ups that cause more damage than the string or even an inhale which is either gonna get you gimped or hes gonna copy and kirby is better than wolf at camping with blaster
its a rock paper scissors game where kirby really does have better and more options than wolf
This.lol @ people calling Staz a troll when he's OBVIOUSLY correct.
kirbys feet arent disjointed unless they just expanded (which visually they seem too on all his aerials)
kirby has TONS of bad stages, anything with a low cieling is bad for kirby
his best stages are FD, SV, and BF.
dont ever play on anything else. ever.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 2,154
Staz stop posting, if a kirby uair sharks he'll get spiked thru the stage Wolf's Dair hitbox is huge I've hit MK's thru brinstar doing uair with it. We don't even have to stay on the middle platform to allow you to shark. Wolf's won't blaster at the range where you can PS and get a grab that's just dumb. At a proper range even if kirby PSes a blaster he shouldn't be able to grab. Not to mention that you think Kirby can grab a PSed perfectly spaced bair when not even DDD can...You have no proper wolf knowledge whatsoever why are you posting?
On the topic of Kirby's throw to uair. It's predictable, but doesn't change the fact that you have to take a guess if we'll DI behind you or far enough so that you have to dash grab. The maximum DMG any wolf with proper DI should take from a throw chain is 30%. The rest the kirby has to be amazing with reads. I've played Chu, Ybm, and a IL kirby. The MU is close to even. The adv that Kirby has in this MU is CP's since he has so many to pick from that wolf isn't that good on like Frigate and RC and some others
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
Staz. You're a bigot. Go google it if you don't believe me.
To address your point of Kirby having TONS of bad stages. I'm willing to see your point of view but you should honestly back up your opinion.
I'll amend my earlier statement to "Kirby has no bad stages that are specifically bad for Kirby".
EVERY character hates low ceilings, and while Kirby is not excluded, he's not a special case.
@Kain- It's abt time you came and posted.
To address your point of Kirby having TONS of bad stages. I'm willing to see your point of view but you should honestly back up your opinion.
I'll amend my earlier statement to "Kirby has no bad stages that are specifically bad for Kirby".
EVERY character hates low ceilings, and while Kirby is not excluded, he's not a special case.
@Kain- It's abt time you came and posted.
Staz
Smash Lord
not a properly spaced one.
mks uair isnt as big as kirbys.
u can just ps all of wolfs lasers its super slow. and he cant do anything about it.
kirby AND d3 can BOTH ISSDI or IPSSDI toward wolf and grab his bair.
how people dont understand how powerful issdi'ing is i just dont get.
kirbys fthrow period past 30 is a rock paper scissors game where ALL his options are simply better than wolfs.
this mu is in no way even kirby obliterates wolf if he touches him its basically half his stock gone.
and his stock is gonna get gimped in some matter in every single match of a set. kirby is just that gay offstage on wolf.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 2,154
Oh god...yep 100:0 Kirby obv ur the best player in the world you ISSDI everything so good...with ISSDI kirby goes 100:0 with MK too, matter fact everyone. Even better is where you live UT....soooooooo many good wolfs there to play. Your extensive MU knowledge is so good. You obv know what your talkin about, we get grabbed we lose GG wolf
Staz
Smash Lord
umadcuzbroken100:0muinkirbysfavor?
also of course kirby beats mk, it happens in every kirby game ever pretty much.
also of course kirby beats mk, it happens in every kirby game ever pretty much.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 2,154
yes im totally mad cause ive taken games and sets off Kirby's top players in a 100:0 MU in favor of Kirby. He's broken GG
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
Kain, I think if you look back through the pages you'll see that he's actually just a troll that we've suffered through for this MU discussion.
If you ignore his post you can see this thread is in a general agreement of how the Kirby/Wolf MU is played.
If you ignore his post you can see this thread is in a general agreement of how the Kirby/Wolf MU is played.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 2,154
Yeah I know lol. I've already posted most of the useful stuff I know for the MU basically n will respond to any other things that are reasonable other than Staz lol
Staz
Smash Lord
ive seen a ganon beat allys mk.
so anything is possible.
if you look back through the pages youll see that most kirbys dont know how to spacie
cool story, bro.
CR4SH
Smash Lord
I don't remember how I got in here but. Kain how are you getting trolled so hard?
Hopefully this guy knows he doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybe he thinks he does. Either way he's not worth anyone's time lol.
Hopefully this guy knows he doesn't know what he's talking about. Maybe he thinks he does. Either way he's not worth anyone's time lol.
Staz
Smash Lord
I'm waiting for Kewkky. Following rules sucks :< lol
For throw combos, does Kirby prefer fthrow > uair on wolf, or dthrow > utilt? I feel like the latter is better in the sense that it's more guaranteed damage, but with proper reads (except more like if the Wolf doesn't know that he should DJ after SDIing the uair instead of shining into a shield grab) the former can rack up more damage.
For throw combos, does Kirby prefer fthrow > uair on wolf, or dthrow > utilt? I feel like the latter is better in the sense that it's more guaranteed damage, but with proper reads (except more like if the Wolf doesn't know that he should DJ after SDIing the uair instead of shining into a shield grab) the former can rack up more damage.
Staz
Smash Lord
fthrow>uair>dthrow>utilt>bair.
C~Dog
Smash Champion
Triple R
Smash Lord
I honestly would rather fthrow -> uair then try to dthrow -> utilit. maybe it's just habit, and I don't remember if wolf can shine after a dthrow at 0%. I'd almost rather them SDI my uair and try to force them to use their second jump and punish from there.
Kappy
Smash Ace
Something I've been using lately, Fthrow -> Uair -> Up Angled Ftilt, may be able to hit Wolf when he SDI's away and score Kirby a possible second grab. I'm not positive if it works, so next time I play Kain I'll try it out and see what happens!
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
@Kappy- Actually that's how I punish SDIers. If you buffer it, you'll connect @ lower percents but past a certain percent (I'd have to go test) Wolf will shine you.
MikeKirby
OTL Winrar
Yes, a seasoned Wolf WILL shine after you F-throw>U-air or D-Throw>U-tilt. Knowing this you can just shield after the F-throw>U-air/D-throw>U-tilt. After the shield, if they shined, you get a free grab (at low percentages obv.). If they pick up on this and they start to SDI away you can then try the up angled F-tilt. Yup, it'll turn into a rock-paper-scissors game.
). If they pick up on this and they start to SDI away you can then try the up angled F-tilt. Yup, it'll turn into a rock-paper-scissors game.
Sage JoWii
Smash Champion
@ 0% Kirby should honestly, as safely as possible w/o taking to much damage, alway go for FThrow>Uair>reverseUTilt>BAir. That's @ 0%. Anything after that can be pummel>DThrow or UThrow for damage racking purposes.
Once Wolf is @ higher percents and is SDIing more and reactive shining. It should be more about getting damage through pummels and strong throws.
Once Wolf is @ higher percents and is SDIing more and reactive shining. It should be more about getting damage through pummels and strong throws.
Staz
Smash Lord
its a rock paper scissors game where everything kirby can do to wolf is better than wolf can to kirby.
and itd be better to fsmash punish the shine (possibly the footstool jablock you can do to marth after he up b's too if they dont hold the shine out) rather than grab punish.
and itd be better to fsmash punish the shine (possibly the footstool jablock you can do to marth after he up b's too if they dont hold the shine out) rather than grab punish.
~Shao~
Smash Ace
Now I'm 200% sure you're trolling.
Staz
Smash Lord
it works surprisingly better than you would think, bait the shine, upward angle fsmash.
Staz, your suggestions are impossible to pull off in a match. Not even the best Kirby mainers can pull them off. (Power)shield SDI isn't easy to do, I haven't seen a single person do it once on purpose during a match anywhere. Kirby's footstool jablocks are also impossible to do in a match, since opponents keep making sure they're out of Kirby's range with their disjoints, so we can't get close for uair-footstool-jablocks, and Wolf falls too fastfor Kirby to footstool him after a shine.
I would back you up in what you're saying if you did these things in matches all the time, or if I could do them, even if no one in USA has seen me do them in a match ever... But truth is that I've never been able to footstool jablock anyone, or (power)shield SDI anyone's attacks, even accidentally. The window for these things is small, and it's also hard to properly pull these off due to opponents always being on their toes and not wanting these things to happen in the first place. If you're fighting against IC's, and you don't want them to grab you, then you'll do everything you can to attack out of their range, right? Same applies to Kirby's matches, and shield SDI'ing/footstool jablock shenanigans... They're just too hard to pull off, and at the top of the skill spectrum, no top player will knowingly give their opponent chances like that. It's better to avoid talking about them in MU discussions because they're just too hard to pull off in the first place, they're definitely not gonna affect the MUs discussed at all.
Well, I don't know what to add to what's been said. Wolf is the nastiest of the 3 space animals for Kirby to fight, because of his bair's range/shine/dsmash/retreating fairs with their follow-ups. I'm not saying Kirby's gonna have a harder time here, we still have a nice number of shenanigans as well as different choices for counterpicks (Frigate and RC... Apart from Frigate's right ledge on the first transformation, the 'valley' in the second transformation also works wonders for me when I go up against Wolfs. As for RC, the rising part is the best for this MU, as well as the falling part). We keep Wolf on his toes, and he does the same to us. It really depends on which player knows what to do most of the time.
Grab followups for Kirby? I prefer dthrow>utilt in this MU because of Wolf's falling speed, if we time our utilts right we can still get a good number of them in and end in a bair without getting shined, it's all about that practice! Fthrow followups can still get SDI'd out of, but that shouldn't be a reason for you to stop doing them! Chances are you'll get a good fthrow>uair>reverse utilt>bair at the lowest %s when your opponent least expects it, and the positional advantage you gain from it is definitely worth trying to get: if you knock Wolf offstage with that ending bair, it'll be pretty hard for him to return to the stage if you know where to wait for Wolf (inside his scarring range, shielding, waiting for him to scar/jump from the ledge, then react accordingly and bair/ftilt/shieldgrab).
His shine is veeery annoying, you should get used to expecting it whenever he's falling and you're jumping towards him, or when you're stringing and knocking him upwards. His retreating fairs and well-spaced bairs are the worst parts of the MU, try not to rush in after him for shieldgrabs unless you're SURE he'll fall for them, try ftilting OoS instead since it doesn't leave you as open as a failed grab, and due to its speed, you'll have time to evade whatever he tries to throw at you if you miss.
The MU is even, if not something close to it on either side. Depends on who's got the most experience/knowledge.
I would back you up in what you're saying if you did these things in matches all the time, or if I could do them, even if no one in USA has seen me do them in a match ever... But truth is that I've never been able to footstool jablock anyone, or (power)shield SDI anyone's attacks, even accidentally. The window for these things is small, and it's also hard to properly pull these off due to opponents always being on their toes and not wanting these things to happen in the first place. If you're fighting against IC's, and you don't want them to grab you, then you'll do everything you can to attack out of their range, right? Same applies to Kirby's matches, and shield SDI'ing/footstool jablock shenanigans... They're just too hard to pull off, and at the top of the skill spectrum, no top player will knowingly give their opponent chances like that. It's better to avoid talking about them in MU discussions because they're just too hard to pull off in the first place, they're definitely not gonna affect the MUs discussed at all.
Well, I don't know what to add to what's been said. Wolf is the nastiest of the 3 space animals for Kirby to fight, because of his bair's range/shine/dsmash/retreating fairs with their follow-ups. I'm not saying Kirby's gonna have a harder time here, we still have a nice number of shenanigans as well as different choices for counterpicks (Frigate and RC... Apart from Frigate's right ledge on the first transformation, the 'valley' in the second transformation also works wonders for me when I go up against Wolfs. As for RC, the rising part is the best for this MU, as well as the falling part). We keep Wolf on his toes, and he does the same to us. It really depends on which player knows what to do most of the time.
Grab followups for Kirby? I prefer dthrow>utilt in this MU because of Wolf's falling speed, if we time our utilts right we can still get a good number of them in and end in a bair without getting shined, it's all about that practice! Fthrow followups can still get SDI'd out of, but that shouldn't be a reason for you to stop doing them! Chances are you'll get a good fthrow>uair>reverse utilt>bair at the lowest %s when your opponent least expects it, and the positional advantage you gain from it is definitely worth trying to get: if you knock Wolf offstage with that ending bair, it'll be pretty hard for him to return to the stage if you know where to wait for Wolf (inside his scarring range, shielding, waiting for him to scar/jump from the ledge, then react accordingly and bair/ftilt/shieldgrab).
His shine is veeery annoying, you should get used to expecting it whenever he's falling and you're jumping towards him, or when you're stringing and knocking him upwards. His retreating fairs and well-spaced bairs are the worst parts of the MU, try not to rush in after him for shieldgrabs unless you're SURE he'll fall for them, try ftilting OoS instead since it doesn't leave you as open as a failed grab, and due to its speed, you'll have time to evade whatever he tries to throw at you if you miss.
The MU is even, if not something close to it on either side. Depends on who's got the most experience/knowledge.
Zync
Smash Journeyman
<3 Sooooooo true
Staz
Smash Lord
ive done the kirby footstool combo in tourney before actually.... against our states second best player Yaz... its not at all impossible with a good read
I discovered and wrote the thread on IPSSDI/ISSDI.
i been practicing it since then its not that hard you just hit the stick when its going to touch your shield :/ and ic mains do it alot actually..... people dont do it becuase they think its hard. but its not at all.
wolfs shine is suuuuper predictable and it leaves him open if he misses, if you are in the air when he misses you can in fact footstool combo him.
Nope, I'm quite sure it's around even.
We all have our opinions, but I think with Kirby's superior off-stage gimping combined with Wolf's atrocious recovery options, Kirby has an obvious advantage. The list of things Kirby can do to Wolf goes on and on.
I was being conservative when I said 60:40 in Kirby's favor.
I was being conservative when I said 60:40 in Kirby's favor.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
Lol... I SD as Wolf more often than I get gimped... Wolf's recovery is bad, but in the same way as Snakes': Sure you can be gimped, but it doesn't happen often. Mostly you just eat lots of damage trying to get back onstage.
Wolf is kinda bad at the ledge XD
Wolf is kinda bad at the ledge XD