Match-Up Export #7: Game&Watch

[Conviction]

Ok guys we seriously need to start discussing some matchups and I decided to help with this one as is the one I know the most.

Ok to begin this matchup Fox has to play a lot different than other matchups.

First of all, never approach G&W from above, NEVER!!

G&W aerials have great priority and destroy all yours including Dair so Dair is not an option in this matchup. If you get caught above G&W he can juggle you a lot with his Nair and stopping your momentum with his Uair.

Remember this: Nair do 4 hits and Bair do 5 hits, a lot of people forget the last hit of Bair and only that hit is enough to make a follow up for G&W so don´t get hit by that last hit, remember that the last hit is when the turtle lowers its head. Also Bair is great to poke shields specially last hit so don´t be happy shielding every Bair.

Fox controls G&W in the ground and that should be the core of this matchup. Dash attack when G&W is falling is a good option. JJC is great also and your utilt should works as great as always. Also don´t be scared of SHDL because of bucket, is better to force him to fill the bucket instead of allowing him to use it as momentum cancel. Some don´t even try to fill the bucket so they don´t stop the lasers so free damage for you.

Thanks to Fox speed is not so hard to juggle G&W if he is above you with FF Uairs

Thats it for now, I will update this later with some counterpicks and other things

 

[Toronto Joe]

taken from an old post of mine,still pretty relevant

Bucket is GW enemy and friend in this matchup, bait bucket with lasers and when they pull it out approach and punish, if you fill up his bucket he wont be able to bucket break but this doesnt really matter since you will be killing him vertically, dair > jab is great for racking up damage and jab > grab will also open up your grab game ,do not stay stationary in this matchup,your rarely going to sheildgrab a GW who knows how to space so make sure your utilizing you speed to get out of there when GW gets too close for comfort

i dont use Fox for this matchup anymore,turtle eats at your sheild and we have no way to punish it, nair stops our aerial approach, and GWs dtilt/ fair are great at edgegaurding our recovery, just when we thought it was bad enough dthrow provides Gw will endless options, even if you avoid the dthrow>dsmash via teching, your still open to be tech chased, at close range fox gets destroyed,medium range hes still at a disadvantage, and long is your best bet to win this one

cyan reminded me to tell you that an experienced GW will use his up-b to his full advantage either out of shield to interrupt your aerials or to simply evade laser pressure, up-b oos stops dair in its tracks and is much safer to use then nair

1more thing to add, lots of GWs like to do dair after they get sent into the air because for some reason they feel safe, you can bair them just before they pull out the key or while they are travelling down, something like you utilt (they try and pull of the key to get out) and you bair ive also found can work because of how slow the key comes out, or on the safer side you could sidestep then grab or usmash, use usmash very aggresively if you have the % or stock advantage in this one btw

things to keep in mind..his dash attack stage spikes you if you hanging on the ledge,his utilt combos at low % he can uair your recovery and **** you over if beneath you..lol i hate this matchup

Ban: RC/Frigate
CP: Castle Seige or FD

Seconds: Snake or Marth
__________________

 

[Shintarru]

I agree with most of what you said Joe, but why cp Castle Siege over Halberd?

 

[-Mars-]

G&W can kill you at like 70% on Halberd lol that's why.

 

[Zhamy]

i dont use Fox for this matchup anymore,turtle eats at your sheild and we have no way to punish it

How have you not learned to space and then powershield->Usmash the turtle?

 

[Toronto Joe]

the problems that arise from posting old posts...remember i didnt know how to usmash oos b4 LOL

and on halberg, nair from under the platform and gw kills you at bs %s

 

[kewl]

i love to dair foxes when they recover low. it's fun.

btw this MU is basic bread and butter. i play Zephil all the time, i know this MU like the back of my hand.
Fox, stay low. gw gets you in the air it's pretty much nair nair uair strings. gimping fox is one of the easiest things evarrr, don't get predictable with your recovery or you will be gimped, i mean i can't tell you how many times i've hit fox out of his firefox when recovering low. gw's grabs own fox in every way possible, we could choose to dthrow and techchase or dsmash if you guys dont tech, or throw up you in the air and start some strings.


basically give this MU a 35:65 for Fox. =/

 

[Zekeishere]

Kewl you don't know what you're talking about. Fox can U smash OOS, and camp the hell out of G&W. And he's fast enough to punish in between smashes and stuff. =/

 

[SmashBrother2008]

Fox can U smash OOS, and camp the hell out of G&W.

G&W has bucket, shield and approach in his favor, so camping is only so viable for Fox.

 

[kewl]

Kewl you don't know what you're talking about. Fox can U smash OOS, and camp the hell out of G&W. And he's fast enough to punish in between smashes and stuff. =/

i never said anything about his OoS usmash but ok.

sure he can usmash OoS, but that doesn't affect the MU alot. gw shouldn't approach with bair anything that that usmash could punish us with. it's truly ilogic if it's a smart gw. it doesn't affect much the MU. about being fast and camping, ever heard of ducking? idk i play a hella defensive gw, so i can duck the hell out of the lasers all i want and play extremely gay if the Fox starts playing me gay. plus like i said earlier, get him offstage, if you know how to edgeguard it's a done deal there and Fox dies. which is what wins in this MU, adaption.

i still believe this MU is 35-65 in favor of GW. i honestly don't think it's any closer.

 

[Zhamy]

i still believe this MU is 35-65 in favor of GW. i honestly don't think it's any closer.

Please ignore this guy. Please. Don't turn our matchup thread into responding to idiots again. Fox boards, don't feed the trolls idiots.

 

[GUARD]

i dont use Fox for this matchup anymore,turtle eats at your sheild and we have no way to punish it,
__________________

hmmmmm.....I will gladly disagree lol (if turtle comes at you when your on the ground.)

the turtle is FAR from being a problem for Fox. If your on the ground and you see G & W use the turtle, aim your shield upwards and spot dodge the last hit of the turtle. the turtle appears to have a consecutive hit of like 5 hits. So shield (allways tilting it upwards) the first 4 hits of the turtle and spot dodge the 5th hit. then you have a few options such as up-tilt (which MAY work) or Drill (if your lucky.........lol) I ussually do a jab to grab (or jab to up-tilt) or I just strait up grab him. if he's too far............I found that Fox forward tilt ROCKS!!!!!!

 

[kewl]

Please ignore this guy. Please. Don't turn our matchup thread into responding to idiots again. Fox boards, don't feed the trolls idiots.

lol in your words, what does Fox have on gw? honestly.
i play a really good fox almost every other day. >.>;

 

[Asce]

Ive played G & W a bit and I know at the very least that we can Dash Usmash you out of turtle as youre ascending in the short hop. Its fun haha they think theyre safe until that happens. also fox can camp G&W even if he ducks its not about hitting him a patient fox will just laser all day and bait till something happens. Filling the bucket is also something that we should aim to do it takes out bucket braking if G&W is dumb enough to take the shots.

 

[Zephil]

hmmmmm.....I will gladly disagree lol (if turtle comes at you when your on the ground.)

the turtle is FAR from being a problem for Fox. If your on the ground and you see G & W use the turtle, aim your shield upwards and spot dodge the last hit of the turtle. the turtle appears to have a consecutive hit of like 5 hits. So shield (allways tilting it upwards) the first 4 hits of the turtle and spot dodge the 5th hit. then you have a few options such as up-tilt (which MAY work) or Drill (if your lucky.........lol) I ussually do a jab to grab (or jab to up-tilt) or I just strait up grab him. if he's too far............I found that Fox forward tilt ROCKS!!!!!!

interesting but I don´t think this is always sure because turtle is excellent to poke shields.

Utilt can be an option but if you are facing G&W utilt is not a good option, JJC looks like a good choice and is always better than just strait up grab him.

Also yeah... Fox ftilt ROCKS!! is sooo underused!!

 

[crifer]

against GaW I only use sh single lasers in a mid, but safe distance,
if he uses bucket I grab him and fthorw/dthrow. If you have to spam usmash.

Usmash, grabs, lasers. yeah and nair into usmash.

 

[M@v]

An across-the-board spacy tactic that works with newbier GW's is baiting the bucket with lasers, then punishing it with its ******** end lag.

 

[Hanzhou]

I do what M@V says.Nair,dair, and Jab seem to work well in this MU. I'd mostly go Marth if I had to play a GnW in a tourney. How well do Empty short hops/ SHAD work if they're not grab spammy o.o?

 

[M@v]

Fox and Falco really don't do bad vs GW. With Fox, GW's making an early exit each stock...like really early. Around/Under 100% a lot of times. This is assuming your not as predictable as a book when it comes to upsmashing.

 

[Hanzhou]

I just seen a vid when GnW SH bairs our shield w/o spacing after 4 hits the turtle hit box disappears for a few before the final hitbox shows allowing us to shield drop jab or upsmash Oos or just grab.

 

[Fenrir VII]

you can literally usmash everything in this match... so every GW option is much riskier than it should be.

Outside of that, camping is in Fox's favor... if the GW pulls out a bucket, he eats a smash... at least he should. And for what exactly? three lasers do 15-20%, and the bucket isn't the easiest thing to hit, and it ruins the concept of bucket braking...


Fox can't edgeguard in the match, but given good recoveries by the Fox player, GW really can't very well either.

GW kills mad early, but the main moves that do so (usmash) are slow and telegraphed... eat moar Fox usmash.

Honestly, Fox outspaces, outspeeds, and just beats GW, imo.

 

[Code Lyon]

what number do you think it is?

 

[Exceladon City]

Match-up is kinda dumb, but a game of who can bait better. Keep the lasers cranking against GW. If they are smart they won't bucket them. Besides, a bucket from Fox lasers is close to getting Fsmashed by Samus, so it's nothing too threatening. Foxcopters are pretty good against GW, DI away when you do them to be out of range for Nairs and a surprise Fair. When you see a turtle, DO NOT SHIELD, run away and SHDL. Unless, you're pro at PS'ing, it's not worth the shieldpoking. Also, if you're above GW you won't make it back to the ground...without 40% or more tacked on. Nair and Uair are vicious. Uair gusts refresh his moveset as well, so having an arsenal of OP smashes is scary, having an arsenal of OP never stale smashes is much, much worse. However, if you are at high percents, GW's get trigger happy on smashes. so stopping short of Fsmash range is great for baiting attacks. Be on the look out for grabs. Dthrow is tech chase central and since Fox's fall speed makes him unable to change which way he'll be thrown, GW's can **** you just from Dthrow > Jab reset and Dthrow tech chases alone.

Match-Up: 35:65 GW

Fox can manage it but it's a doozy.

 

[Code Lyon]

Shield the turtle.....read Praxis's thread please

 

[Exceladon City]

I don't like dealing with Turtle. I run and shoot that shizz.

 

[Code Lyon]

Even when you can reliably punish it?

 

[Fenrir VII]

Dthrow shouldn't pose any problem to anybody who can tech it... no use in jabbing that, so no, he can't 'wreck' Fox with it..

And yes, if you forget how to punish everything, the matchup is hard. Otherwise, yeah, pretty basic... When you can reliably shut down all of GW's main options, you automatically put yourself at an advantage. Especially when you can punish things with Fox's strongest move. and again, you can usmash everything, and GW is incredibly light.

Honestly, other than having a perfect recovery, and being able to kill fairly early, GW is hurting in the match. The standard zoning stuff just doesn't work.

There's no way, in my mind at least, that the match is in GW's favor at all... That's an outdated philosophy that even then had holes... at this point, Fox just outplays him...

no less than 55-45 for Fox. possible 6-4

 

[Rizk18]

wow so far everyone single character vs fox in the forums,people are arguing fox is in the favor,what the **** like seriously,if he has even and advantages against all these characters why the **** isnt he ranked at least in the A tier,gtfo with this ****,gnw>fox

 

[KillerJawz]

It has been known for a while now that Fox is an underrated character, but as we know, what really holds him back are his unwinnable matchups such as Sheik, ICs, Pika and a few others. However, outside of these MUs, Fox has VERY few bad match ups because he is actually a good character.

 

[Red Arremer]

wow so far everyone single character vs fox in the forums,people are arguing fox is in the favor,what the **** like seriously,if he has even and advantages against all these characters why the **** isnt he ranked at least in the A tier,gtfo with this ****,gnw>fox

****, your solid arguments, astounding understanding of the game and great rhetorics convinced me.
Fox is crap tier, surely he must have Hyrulean ancestors.

 

[KillerJawz]

surely he must have Hyrulean ancestors.

Oh my god that was hysterical, must be quoted immediatly.

Okay, enough laughs, get on topic people.

Also Iblis I have handed ownership of this thread to you.

 

[4Biddin]

geez do these boards ever finish their match up threads.

Anyways

Fox:
-Use your speed to get away from his approaches
-Dont stand still
-Dont sit in shield
-Lazer him all day
-full hop dair his nair if the get predictable same goes for bair
-punish bucket attempts with grabs(also try to bait it if you can)
-you must tech dthrow otherwise you can lose out on a stock early
-at about 75% you will die from almost any smash

The main strgenth fox has in this MU is speed and it evens it out for him. His mobility is far greater than GW and you have to make GW chase you the whole match and then try to capitalize where you can.

GW:
-Bair is pretty safe if spaced well same goes for nair
-Smash cycle mind games (usmash--->Fsmash--->Dsmash)
-dtilt can stop airieal approaches
-jab can get fox away
-dthrow tech chase to usmash
-full bucket of lasers can kill at about 100-120 percent by the edge of stage

GW has the blessing of high priority multi hit box moves which can pose a problem for a character like fox GW has to really play smart in this match up because if the fox knows what he is doing he will try to camp out the GW since fox cant really fight GW hands up.

Overall I would say this is about a 50:50 match up. We both kill early it just comes out to who plays the match up better IMO.

Here is a vid to top it off
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azogZK1j3GE

PS. we need to finish our match up threads!

 

[GUARD]

I agree with 50-50 on this one... Fox ROCKS on punishing the turtle, camping and killing in this match-up.

 

[-Mars-]

I remember when this used to be considered a hard matchup for Fox. Lol how times have changed.

 

[4Biddin]

I remember when this used to be considered a hard matchup for Fox. Lol how times have changed.

Lol I used to rage when I had this match up but now fox has been advanced to a really high level.

 

[Elite Cowdung]

game and watch is just ********. he does so much dmg thats just rediculous

 

[TKD]

This writeup is from my experience, and I barely have any experience against G&W, but I think G&W is too slow for Fox. Maybe his bucket and crouch can make things close, but I don't trust that.

- Bair has an extra (6th) hit when landing. Dair has an extra (2nd) hit as well. G&W can chose to fall slower during dair by tapping down. Block upwards to cover your ears. I think Fox's usmash and G&W's dair may counter each other (making it a trade), but I don't know. If it does, great.
- G&W's aerials have long start-up, so you can interrupt them with your own attacks during juggles (otherwise bait the aerials).
- Bair clashes with Fox's dash attack, point at which he has to air-jump or upb to escape.
- Crossing up on G&W is safe. Hitting G&W's shield is safe. Compared to most chars at least. Even dair is good vs his shield.
- Fox isn't juggle fodder because of downb.
- G&W's moves get him stuck in animation for awhile compared to most chars, so baiting him to punish them (dash attack is easy even vs whiffed dtilts) is effective, and he's very easy to blaster at.
- G&W can crouch lasers, so watch out for that when his bucket's full.
- Fire freely when G&W's bucket is full. He doesn't have to approach if he's in the lead (by crouching), so just move around and bait stuff then.
- Fast-fall air-dodge will go right through his uair wind if you have time to do it.
- G&W beeps 4 times during his dthrow. Imagine a 5th beep at the same rate in order to time your tech for it. Your opponent can fair you if he guesses which direction you tech in, and if he has the skill to buffer a dash. Buffering a dash backwards is more difficult than otherwise, so check if your opponent can't punish techs to his back.
- Use chinese DI to get out of his bair, by going through him or upwards.

About bucket:
- You have to use single blaster shots vs G&W to smash or grab him every time he buckets a shot.
- You can punish the bucket even if he doesn't absorb anything (G&W can't move for 50 frames since start-up of downb)
- After he stores the first 2 shots, he's immobile for an extra 72 frames (allowing your usmash to be charged well or to hit him with another smash eg dash skid stutter fsmash). After storing the final shot, he's immobile for only 36 frames (0.6 seconds), enough for only the dash usmash depending on how apart you both are.
- His charged downb has 22 frames cool-down so dash usmash it if you know its range. It makes him invincible for the first 6 frames of start-up (and it comes out in TWO FRAMES), so be very very conservative (and damage him from baits) when he's charged up.
- So basically each full bucket costs G&W more than 40% every time, and you can blaster him freely when he's fully charged.

I'd say mostly bait his moves a LOT to punish them, bait his bucket with single landing shots, land correctly to the ground, and also that he's an easy and advantageous cross-up and doesn't have anything but shield-grab and dtilt to punish most things that'll hit his shield.

This match-up is dangerous anyway. His smashes and downb can make the cost of your mistakes very high because of early kills. It's like a good Ganon.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I've seen Yui beating Kein's GW pretty solidly but I'm not sure if the whole set is actually uploaded. The main point in TKD's explanation that caught my eye was the claim that Fox can cross up GW very well - I don't think that's the case. I also think juggling GW is the way to go in this match-up. He has no real counter to fair for his dair can easily be maneuvered around and everything else straight-up loses to fair.

 

[TKD]

well nair/utilt (kinda), mostly upb do help g&w vs cross-up. but that's it. his shield doesn't give him rewards
you can ac dair g&w in battlefield from below as he dairs into a platform. pretty solid. this match-up is lots about blastering g&w. i'd do it carefully and maybe mostly single shots to usmash/fsmash him each time he absorbs.