Match-Up Export #5: Marth

[Conviction]

Match-Up Export
Fox vs. Marth​

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Things to keep in mind while discussing!

* Keep a proper wording, 
don't insult or yell at the other people discussing inside of this thread. 
Although that shouldn't even be mentioned, I've seen it happen.

* Match-Up ratios are fairly subjective. 
However, please don't overrate or underestimate a character. 
Stuff like "lol, X can't do anything, RAEP!" is not going to aid us in our discussion.

* Don't theorycraft too much. 
Keep in mind that while Fox or the character we're discussing in this thread
are able to do a certain move at a certain time, don't just throw this out, 
but rather think if this is actually practical and used by good players of these characters.

* If you are new to the discussion, please don't state trivial things.
Best would be to read the discussion properly, 
or at least the first and last few pages should the thread go on for a while already. 
Saying "Fox can reflect all of X's projectiles." might be true, 
but probably has already been mentioned.

* Discussions will be held for about 2 weeks - unless the need of expanding is felt.
The first week will bring a temporary ratio that then will corrected during the second.

With this in mind, we shall start the discussion!

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MARTH, PRINCE(SS) OF ALTEA

KEY POINTS

Advantages


Disadvantages


Summary


IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game:
Ground Game:
Approach:
Defense:
Camping Game:
Edge Game:
Surviving:
Killing:
Frame Data:

Stages
Stage Striking
* Possible Fox Strikes
* Possible Marth Strikes
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
[COLOR="Yellow"]Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly a starter, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Banning
* Possible Fox Bans
* Possible Marth Bans
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Counterpicks
* Possible Fox Counterpicks
* Possible Marth Counterpicks
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Possible Secondaries


Videos & Other Outside Resources

Videos

Verdict
XX:XX ​

 

[TKD]

Advantages:
- Blaster
- Combos (staple and juggles)
- Fox has a counter to many options

Disadvantages:
- Starting percent chain-grabs (0-50% or fthrow x2 into dair)
- Control of the match (while Fox regains ground or recovers)
- Easy counters from Marth (via special moves)

Stuff:
- Run away and shoot! Jump onto platforms! Use approaches completely safe on grab attempts! If the Marth player insists on landing grabs, you should make sure it leads to them receiving more damage.
- Block often, just in case Marth performs rising fairs (short-hopped is countered by fair from block, full-hopped is countered by a full hop move).
- If running out of block, use full hop or air jump fast-fall approaches, or do it to run away. Don't block or be careful if shield-breaker can break your shield.
- Don't punish what can't be punished (Fair on your block you can't reach with a punish move, landing fair you didn't powerblock, etc.)
- Don't try combo techniques against a shield, or un-true combos: Marth can easily upB to counter (instead of Dair into another attack when it's not a true combo, you can connect a Dair and block: if they upB, you get to punish).
- Always try to juggle Marth: Utilts are as great as always, land enough of them so you can wait for him to fall (his best options are fair and air dodge I think). If he's falling you can dash attack to interrupt his attempts to land while performing Fair. It obviously hits him as he lands while air-dodging too. You can dash to his landing spot and block, if you power-block a fair, it's punishable, if they air dodge, it's better to SH Nair instead of grabbing, unless you're sure which side they're on. Note: If you see an air-dodge coming, just walk to the right spot and Dsmash Marth.
- Blocking beats Dancing Blade, or at least is safe against it. Don't get frustrated if he interrupts your moves often with this move.
- For KOs: Dair into Dsmash is good. Dsmash is good by itself. You can attempt to KO Marth using his recovery as an opportunity. More often though, you'll probably land Dsmash at such high % that the move alone will KO Marth. Usmash can work, specially out of Dair, as usual. You should be confident an Usmash will hit though, as there are less situations in which it should connect. Bair's safe on block, and it may just lead into edge-guards or plain KO Marth at very high %.

Just know how to run away and shoot, as well as your fast-fall air-dodge approaches. Juggling is very important, as is being safe about landing KOs.

In my opinion, this match-up ranges from 40/60 to 50/50. I think Fox's best neutral here is Battlefield, but that may just be me.

 

[crifer]

bf? that´s marth´s best stage lol.

Now... Actually I think Marth´s are stupid. Seriously I never lost to marth in a serious tournament match (with DK and Fox), except I SDéd or so.

Use sh´s and fullhops, shine, air dodge and fast fall to get within your "combo range". uptilt is a good starter and gets marth in the air, which is good for you. Since all his moves have more range than fox,
you shold try to get in like I said from above, or try to power sheild and sheild grab or pwg him.
you can try to gimp him, with nair or bair, nut I would use nair.

Use laser´s, but be cautious because marth is freaking fast in the air.

watch the bowyer vids against this one marth (ankoku?).

50:50 imo, I actually would say, it´s more in fox favor, but there is the cg and the most people, especially the marth boards would call me crazy.

 

[RPK]

Well I do think that its a bit in Marth's favor because of the CG which leads to an instant tipper and throws you off stage because of the dumb knockback. Or the CG to spike which if done right leads to death. =/

40:60 imo

 

[Adamated]

I would think right about 55:45(probably 60:40) in marths favor. CG, tippers and counter beats firefox and just marths range overall is better than fox's (exluding laser). I seem to have trouble against marth for some reason. I just dont like dthrow to tippered fsmash.

55:45-60:40

 

[M@v]

Just an fyi, if you rising fair before you firefox, you can't be ledge hogged for a 0-death. This only works if he does a couple grab->spike from 0%.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah, guys... the CG spike is not an auto death. just like Falco's.

And since when does Marth have a 0-50% CG on Fox? The marth boards have it listed as:

Fthrow -> fsmash (0-3%)

Fthrow -> fthrow (0-3%)

Fthrow x2 -> dthrow x5 (0 %)

Fthrow -> fthrow -> fsmash (0-3%)

Fthrow -> fthrow -> fthrow (0%)

Where the green ones need more testing, and the red one is proven false... None of these will do 50%, and the two that come closest aren't necessarily guaranteed.... Marth's grabs just don't do that much damage... and as such, aren't that scary.


In theory, this matchup comes down to a Marth zone, Fox die debate... but in practice, I just don't see this happening. Marth does have very good zoning tools and counters, but it is not an insta-win for him, or even THAT much of an advantage. Marth's falling speed means that SH Fair is easy to predict, or even punish on reaction... I have literally SHADed through a zoned fair, and utilted Marth before he landed...

This aspect of the match is actually quite similar to the TL discussion. marth does REALLY well at mid-range, but has no safe way to KEEP Fox at midrange... Fox is too quick, and his fall speed really helps him here.

And of course dolphin slash is good out of shield... but also beatable and baitable. First of all, reading a Marth's pattern is not THAT tricky, and getting inside his sword is about the same... I mentioned the SHAD against Fair zoning... add to that dash shields and spot dodges, and boom, you're inside. Now, given Fox's quickness and decent grab range, it's not ever too tricky to land grabs on Marth, send him into the air, and punish accordingly, much like snake.

Idk... originally, I could see how this match would be 6-4 Marth... but now, after quite a bit of experience, I just don't see that panning out... And I see that the arguments listed before were just incorrect.. I think anybody coming into this discussion with a I zone U die mentality is naive.

 

[crifer]

I think anybody coming into this discussion with a I zone U die mentality is naive.

omg I love you for saying what I think.

 

[Zhamy]

If any of you remember, in the MK discussion, it was pretty clearly pointed out that Fox probably has the biggest trouble wit4h MK's poking game, but still had options to get out of it (and the speed to make those options work).

The same applies here. Tricks/CGs aside, that's what really makes the matchup in Marth's favor. Sword beats Fox, unfortunately. Marth's poking game doesn't give as much trouble as MK's (not as much multi-hit crap to go through, with the exception of dancing blade), but it's still a threat.

The few other things to worry about are:

Dancing Blade - getting shieldpoked is bad. Very. Very. Bad. If you PS the first hit, though, you get a free Usmash. :D

Dolphin Slash - I hate this move (except when I'm playing as Marth). You have to remember that this is always an option for Marth to mash out of combos and strings, so you'll just have to learn when you think your opponent is about to use it and not get *****.

HE ZONES YOU DIE FOX SUCKS 70:30 MARTH - 100% trufax right here.

 

[Adamated]

Trufax rule.
Also, ps = free u-smash? is that OoS or what?

 

[Zhamy]

Out of shield.

 

[Zankoku]

watch the bowyer vids against this one marth (ankoku?)

I am so late to this, but lolllllllllll

never use my Marth as an example for anything legitimate, because my Marth is not legitimate.

 

[Zhamy]

Dude, Ankoku's Marth is like the best Marth in the world. He's just modest about it. (I'm actually kidding, Ankoku's Marth is terrible.)

 

[GUARD]

against a Marth...THERES NO WAY I would be offensive.....

my strategy is to basically run away and spam lasers (SHDL or SHTL).

when he comes to me.....then I would get my grab and down throw him and jump right after and laser some more.....

whats really AWESOME against a Marth is that when Marth is off the edge and wants to recover, grab the ledge.
Marth's 'UP-B' will probably bring him ON the stage (if not, then he dies thanks to 'edge hog'.
right BEFORE he gets ON the stage, you roll or just get up and smash attack him. (Marth has delay after landing when using 'UP-B'.)


the most annoying thing about this strategy may be to lay that GRAB.........besides that.......this match up is FAR from imposible for Fox.

 

[Adamated]

As long as you dont try to beat marth's ledge game you'll be okay. We all have been stage spiked by a dolphin slash and dont forget that his side b can get him that extra second he needs to catch you off guard or just to grab the edge too early.

 

[Apollo$]

Don't forget the especially gay land lag for Fox, I just reflector until I can Fox phantasm into the ledge for recovery. If you are feeling manly then try and fair to recovery, either way Marth has really good stage control on Fox. I just SHDL and look for a opening to combo, lot's of dashing shields.

 

[Storm_Fox]

99% of the time I can illusion cancel onto the ledge. I had a match against Marth the other day and I what happened was i went to do a rising D-Air and ended the move with B-Air. Can anybody explain this?

 

[Exceladon City]

I've played this match-up an uncomfortable amount of times and it's nowhere near 50:50. It's either 60:40 or 65:35 Marth. There is no way Fox does better than Falco in this match.

 

[crifer]

It´s one of those matchup where you use your speed, camping and fall speed to force openings.
I think it´s managable.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I've played quite a few marths too... And i really don't have any trouble in the match.

Marth has a good zoning game, sure, but it's just not that hard for Fox to get inside it. I mean, I've also played Marth (my secondary) against Fox players, and I seriously feel like they can rush me down way too easily.

Marth has a great zoning game, but doesn't have quite the speed to keep Fox away from him at all times.

 

[C.R.Z]

I've played quite a few marths too... And i really don't have any trouble in the match.

Marth has a good zoning game, sure, but it's just not that hard for Fox to get inside it. I mean, I've also played Marth (my secondary) against Fox players, and I seriously feel like they can rush me down way too easily.

Marth has a great zoning game, but doesn't have quite the speed to keep Fox away from him at all times.

i completely agree with this

its not an incredibly hard match up.you just have to watch out for edge guards and to not let him control the pace of the match.

 

[Storm_Fox]

What stages such be picked and avoided or this match-up?

 

[Shaya]

Fthrow x2, Dthrow x5 to tipper fsmash is guaranteed.

I can assure you of this.
Hell I was the one who confirmed it.

fthrow x2 (8%), dthrow x5 (5, 5, 4, 3, 3), fsmash (20%).

TKD's said all the right stuff though.
Using Fox's great speed and fast falls to get in between aerials, whilst honestly being one of the only things he has against the whole zoning thing, is pretty good.

 

[Zephil]

honestly I love this matchup but thats not the point...

be careful of the god **** Dolphin Slash... is too good as combo breaker... seriously, always expect it...

the cg I don´t see as such a problem if you play hit-and-run tactics, even if marth grabs you is very probable that you already received some damage to avoid the cg... anyways is just stupid if a marth just go running like hell to get the grab... so I don´t end cged very much, and yes

fthrow x2 + dthrow x5 + tip fsmash, is legit, but sometimes I have seen miss the tip part of the smash, suppose is an insane DI by Fox or just a mistake by the marth...

I have shine spike in this matchup sometimes but is not a good option, is way too risky

Lasers are just best friend and grabbing a lot marth if you can is a really good choice

 

[TKD]

Fox can keep outside of Marth's range while blastering, punish stuff, get in easily...on more specific stuff, you can be dolphin slashed after your dair at low %, but if you block after performing whatever aerial and they dolphin slash, it's a free punish, which brings some situations back into favorable mix-up, plus you can blaster whenever no move of your opponent's can reach you. Dancing Blade is a powerful option, but not too much of a huge deal and punishable. I won't touch this in depth, but I think this match-up is even.

 

[Toronto Joe]

moar stuff from br...very incomplete but sorta useful

I think it's a pretty fun matchup overall, really... like... not too one-sided in either way. It's also pretty straightforward, really... both players just approach the match basically knowing what they have to do. It's probably about a 6-4 for Marth, but that doesn't hurt Fox too much. just play well...

* Report

#
Zhamy
08-04-2009 08:03 PM
Zhamy
Marth's major weakness is that he has trouble against characters who get behind him. Especially while he's in his shield.

Dashing shield. Dashing shield. Dashing shield.

If you're predicting a grab, spot dodge.

I have tons more (this matchup is fun...as Marth...), but I'll get to it later.

* Report

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Toronto Joe
08-04-2009 03:13 PM
Toronto Joe
yeah i definitely agree that shield is a major tool in this matchup

Fenfen and Khelds post pretty much said what i was going to say lol

if you manage to shield all of his sideb im pretty sure can punish with an usmash, it might be possible to get under his nair and usmash that also

* Edit
* Report

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Fenrir VII
08-04-2009 01:29 PM
Fenrir VII
Marth succumbs to a pressure game fairly well, though... if you sit in your shield, he'll zone you all day.

Marth has somewhat of a weak spot inside his normal fair range, and characters that can stay inside it give him problems. He has a couple tools to get out of this situation, which I'll list:

retreating aerial (Fair or Nair). Overall his safest option, but can be chased and attacked with an aerial or even well performed usmash

Dolphin Slash. Very good reset/kill move, but also kind of Marth's bread and butter... I mean, they'll be looking for it, so if you can bait and shield it, you get a free charged usmash or aerial, in the case that he lands on a platform... very nice.

Dancing Blade. kinda the same as dolphin slash... if you see it coming and shield, you get a free grab or smash...

Grab. Of course it's good, but Fox players should be knowing how to deal with grabs now, though.

Basically, if you get right behind Marth's shield, he only has a couple options against you... either try to escape with DB or DS, or roll... both of which are very punishable. just play smart.

This is one reason I completely support dash shield as an approach in this match... it just allows for the constant application of pressure to be placed on marth, and push him back until he runs out of room...

Another big point... Marth has a HUGE weak spot under him in the air... He can't really do much to defend against shield smash when he's landing... so definitely make use of Fox's tools to put Marth into the air... this is much like the Snake matchup.

* Report

#
KheldarVII
08-04-2009 02:56 AM
KheldarVII
With Marth, you're either playing defensively or playing like an idiot. Try to get your reflex in check so you can powershield everything and deliver the U-tilt goods. And I don't mean combo with it, just with one hit to get him in the air. You'll be relying on your laser a lot so stick with it until you get decent damage on him. Grabs are tricky.... it's tough to bring out anything good until you know the Marth player's pattern because you're gonna be shielding a lot.

For edgeguarding, Up+B will kill you almost anywhere under so make sure those invincibility frames are in check. You wanna attack him far out so get right up in there. If Marth is already close to the stage to recover don't bother.

This is probably one of the few matchups I recommend more use of F-smash than D-smash... but if you have the opening, split those legs. Actually, I guess if you're really good with your shield you might be speedy enough to get inside and D-smash. For grabs instead, just laser follow-up every time except for every 5th or 6th because he'll pop out an airdodge after so many. Free U-smash chance.

I'm all over the place, that's why I rarely discuss matchups. If you're in a panic, run or spam that reverse u-tilt (don't combo) as Marth can't get inside of it. Although I think Dolphin Slash might overtake it, but who's gonna try a blind rush-in Up+B?

* Report

#
Toronto Joe
08-03-2009 01:14 PM
Toronto Joe
the problem with this matchup i find is approaching,Marth has so much range,im pretty sure all of his attacks outrange ours(lasers can only do so much), getting close to him is the hardest part of this matchup which is something we have to figure out how to counter...what to do vs fair,bair,nair,fsmash,usmash,dsmash,dancing blade etc

* Edit
* Report

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Fenrir VII
08-03-2009 12:41 PM
Fenrir VII
I think it is even or slightly in Fox's favor, really... that matchup isn't bad at all. (Falco)

As for Marth... I personally don't find it all that hard to get inside his normal zoning with Fox... approaching with Shield is a fairly easy approach, pushing him backwards until he has no space... you can see a grab coming fairly well, too, so it's not terrible.

Don't attack his shield at higher %s... you will die.

Overall, it's a fairly tricky matchup for Fox, but since you can kill him fairly well, space around fair decently (bair would wonders, as well as fairs)

PWGs are nice again, if Marth isn't zoning, but instead looking to shield something...

overall, I don't really think it's all that difficult to understand the matchup... a bit tricky to control the match, but definitely not terrible.

 

[Elite Cowdung]

this matchup is a joke. fox cant get in or out. lose

 

[TKD]

- Blastering is only to encourage his approach: I recommend not to if he's in a position to DB you.
- Why walking into him and pressuring is good: Marth's fair and nair are easy to shield-grab because of their landing cooldown. Make sure you power-block or the spacing's right so you don't get mikehazed (get your whiffed shieldgrab punished). If you can't shield-grab his aerial you're back to neutral. If you didn't pressure him, he'd always be able to space his aerials well.
- About being mikehazed: if you block a fair/nair that you can't shieldgrab, unblock to block is probably an awesome bait to punish his smash or DB.
- Utilt is GREAT for juggling. Moreso tipper utilt from below. Each time you think he won't air-dodge, you can utilt for more damage. Then you can wait for an air-dodge or walk+block to punish a fair if he lands with it.
- Be conservative to scout for his upb.
- Chase him when he's aerial (higher than a short hop). He's in a bad position. Position yourself to shield-grab his fair if he does it, and to cover his air-dodge option.
- Take advantage when Marth's at the ledge. Another bad position. You can wait for him outside of fair/nair range to dash attack those move's landing cool-down. If he gets up from the ledge and you dash attack late and he blocks, he's pushed back to the ledge . If he ledge jumps, position yourself below him so he's in a disadvantage. If you walk+dsmash as he ledgejumps, he's dead btw. It's quite the trollish gimmick.
- ACUairing Marth is pretty frame advantageous. He can only counter it with dair (unless you overshoot and he counters or does another aerial).
- Marth is one of the chars easiest to punish out of their non-fastfall airdodges. You can usmash, dash attack, fair him (if it ends in the air) if they do. This is a general thing, not just vs Marth...but it works vs him because sometimes he's in an almost coin-flip situation for defense.
- You can charge a dash usmash well if you block his dsmash. Any other smash you can simply dash usmash.
- Dash attack and SH nair beat DB.
- Shield-grab DB well. DB3 is a free usmash/shield-grab, but if you expect it and he only does DB1, you're stuck shielding for pretty long.
- About CG to spike: if you'll get grabbed at 0%, make it so it happens center-stage. In SV, Battlefield and maybe other stages (?), if he fthrows fthrows spikes you, triple SDI it upwards (no c-stick in case he doesn't finish it!), shine, and airjump fair + upb to the other ledge (so it's just a combo and not a 0 to death).
- If you want to cover the grab option, spam AC bair and/or walk grab vs Marth. This is more about baiting him into doing other things because he may get punished for trying to grab. It's baiting because he fairs you for free if you keep doing things that beat grab. After having been damaged by anything, fthrow doesn't lock you in anymore, so it's fine if something hits you (just don't give it for free! it's easy for it to cost him some work/damage).
- More about getting grabbed: Marth's dash grab is bad, but his pivot grab is good. DI away from the stage if you're grabbed near it, so you can't get comboed badly from dthrow/fthrow. When mid-stage, DI is a guess between fthrow/dthrow (although maybe downwards DI works for both :O).

Video:
http://es.twitch.tv/mikehazegaming/b/297032259 set starts @14min50sec
we played far from perfect but anything is something: at least i gave many examples of what not to do lol