Match-Up Export #5: Luigi (Pre-progress)

[Xiivi]

Things will get done when I actually have access to my own computer again (blah blah broken blah blah already explained this to Zhamy), I guess for now I'll start up some more match-up exports so you guys at least have other characters to discuss for now.

Planned Updates:
Links to Matches
Link to Luigi Boards Fox Match-Up Discussion
Links to All Previous Luigi Discussion from the Fox Boards
Stage Banning
Stage Striking
Stage Counter-Picking
Possible Secondaries
Chaingrab Specifics
Dealing with Opponent Projects
Utilizing your Own Projectiles
Approach
Defense
Recovery
Edgeguarding
Killing & Surviving
Frame Data Comparisons
Advantages & Disadvantages
Key Points

 

[718_ROOKI3]

1st post and yes finally more discussions... everyone lets gooooooooooooooo

 

[718_ROOKI3]

OK IM OFFICIALLY DONE WITH THIS THREAD

Green = Great CP
Yellow = Fairly Good CP
Red = Bad/Wrong CP

Stage Striking: Battlefield, Yoshi's

Stage Banning: Brinstar, Norfair

Stage CP'ing: Final. D, PS1, Jungle Japes

Frame Data:

Playing Boss for a week gave me the info I needed to know what moves tend to always come out and well let's just say Luigi's move set is very diverse and he uses alot of different moves so these are the moves I feel we need to know by frame data, so we know what to stay away from and what we can challenge

Luigi:

Jab Frame 2
AAA Frames 2, 3, 5

U-tilt Frame 5
D-tilt Frame 5

Nair Frame 3
Fair Frame 7
Dair Frame 10
Bair Frame 6
Uair Frame 5

Fsmash Frame 12
Dsmash Frame 5 *Front* Frame 14 *Back*
Usmash Frame 9

Up-B Frame 6

Approach/Ground Game/Killing: Your approach to luigi is to camp, when he gets close dance around him and make him throw out moves and try to find your opening. Don't hit him with dash attack below 40%, it will result in you getting Nair'd before you shield and/or U-tilt. You can have a jab battle with him but be careful,he jabs just as fast as you do and his jab has slightly more hitstun. Dthrow him early to rack up massive damage. Lasers lasers lasers, again this opens him up alot and must be abused in this match-up. Shield grabbing luigi is highly reccommended as well, notice luigi has the ability to throw out a barrage of attack so time the frames right and grab him before he throws out his next attack. JJC'ing is a problem too because he can't hit you back before you start another JJC so if you connect with the first one shine afterwards(JJCS). Once you hit him with that he'll get sent flying and now you can start you laser game all over again. He dies off the top way too easy so U-smash is your answer, and since luigi has these wacky physics to him using Dair to trip him into U-smash is easier than normal. If you try to kill him horizontally best believe he will come back. Shoot for the sky against luigi. There are numerous ways to fight him on the ground but very diffcult.

Laser Technique: SHDL

Summary: Play the camp game, Dance around him to open holes, NO JJC'ing instead use JJCS. Grab ALOT, U-smash is you kill answer.

Defense: Your defense is your approach technically. But onto shielding, luigi has a crazy shield pressure game so dont get caught shielding too long because once luigi gets to work on your shield he does not stop. Luigi is similar to MK, he can punish alot of air dodging so don't abuse the air dodge too much. Use air dodges as your drifting away from luigi since his range isnt all that. And seriously don't be afraid to just run away. Your too fast and luigi can't catch up, make him chase you run circles around him whatever it takes to not get hit. Defensive moves like F-tilt are great, as soon as your in F-tilt range just hit him with it and he'll get sent flying. It's a great spacing tool so use it. Even a neutral Nair is good for defensive spacing, as soon as you see luigi approach just SH Nair in place it'll send him flying as well.

Summary: Don't hide in your shield, Air dodge away from him, Run away from him(make him chase you), Use F-tilt and Nair as defensive spacing tools.


Aerial Game: This is really annoying but you can work around it. You see luigi jump in the air and know already this guy can throw out 100 moves before he lands so it looks impossible to get in on him but that's not true. In a aerial confrontation Fox leaves the ground faster than luigi does so already you have the frame advantage. Hitting luigi with fair is awesome and there is not much luigi can do about it. Multi hit moves hurt him alot and fox has one of the best in the game(thank goodness). Spacing Uair underneth luigi is great and can be done, it may even get you a KO. Both of your Bair's look like they have the same range but here's the catch since luigi has crazy aerial manuverability his bair's are edge guarding tools as to your bair is a KO shot. Stay away from his Uair and Fair they both are crazy combo tools. All in all you don't have to meet him in the air if you don't want to. Just run underneth him or SHDL everytime he is in the air.

Summary: Your Bair is the KO shot not luigi's, Fair beats him up badly, Stay away from Fair and Uair, Stay underneth him to connect with Uairs, You don't have to fight him in the air if you don't want to


Edge Game: You can't play the edge game against luigi it's that simple. You can time his options of recoveries that he has though and find a way to shine spike him to put him a worse scenario. His edge game is crazy and he has several options edge guarding you if you recover wrong, so dont. Just get back onto the stage as fast as you can because luigi can make quick work with wrong decisions on the ledge.

 

[Zhamy]

Do not. get. hit. by. Nair.

Comes out on frame 3 and ***** everything.

This means that comboing is not going to be very effective in this matchup.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Do not. get. hit. by. Nair.

Comes out on frame 3 and ***** everything.

This means that comboing is not going to be very effective in this matchup.

Yea we can use the famous saying

"ISAI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DONT GET IT" lmfao

 

[Toronto Joe]

your bair spacing must be on point in this matchup, learn to interrupt aerials and fair him whenever he takes to the air, just hit him before he pulls out his aerials,i notice that Luigis like to down b on the ground when we are laser camping them,so be precise.

once he commits to his side-b to horizontally recover hes vulnerable,im just starting to punish this but i feel its very important, avoid being below the stage vs weegee, stale up-b has actually gimped me lol also be wary of his dthrow,make sure your DI isnt predictable and dont airdoge, you'll get usmashed

Keep luigi match on the ground, watch out for fsmash and be patient

i usually CP to FD
Ban frigate

secondaries: MK or GW
Killing & Surviving: kill with up smash, avoid luigis powerful throws and fsmash, all of his smashes are surprising so just stay out of their range,<3 lasers

 

[SnowballBob33]

Luigi isnt much of a problem.
Cp FD
Pros:
-Ur lasers/speed>his fireballs/speed, meaning he will approach.
-His horizontal drift speed is horrible, so if you manage to hit him when hes off he will most likely die.
-fair stops most of his approaches
-bair pushes him back to far for him to counter you
-usmash
-his range is pooop so u can manuever around him easily

Cons:
-He juggles the hell out of you. utilt>usmash. Dthrow>combo.
-kills you mad early. if u get caught messing up your recovery or spot dodging wrong, prepare for shoryuken. tilted up fsmash is really fast and kills early. bthrow can kill but its not as bad if u di it right. utlit and nair can catch you by surprise and kill. dtilt to fsmash works
-nair gets out of just about anything. jab, dash, and utilt specifically. the good thing is you can read this, block it becuase of the small range, grab and continue.
-bair spacing can be hard to get around if done properly.
-his down b recovery really screws you over if u try to shine him. it send u flying in some random direction which normally leads to u dying.
-misfire

Stategies:
basically make him approach with lasers. you can attempt to shine his fireballs if hes becoming predicatble but try to avoid and just make him come to you. fair cuts down on his aerial approaches. when hes inside on you, only do 1 or 2 utilts or just move out because ur options are down and if he juggles you, you take a lot of unnecusary dmg. abuse the fact that he has stubby arms. they are short and powerful so stayin out of that range is perferable. catching him with dair isnt too hard because u fall faster and he moves slow.

 

[Zhamy]

Also, boxing with Luigi is very very dangerous.

You have to either know you can win or have great SDI and be able to react to a jab, especially once you hit 80%+. Why?

Jab->Shoryuken. As far as I'm concerned, the risk/reward for it is not very good here, but if you space well, you can box outside of his jab range (Ftilt that mofo).

How do I usually play this matchup? Camp, camp, camp, hahahaha Luigi why are you slow as ****, camp, camp, camp, hahahahahahahaha this matchup is so dumb, camp, camp, camp.

There's really only one position you want to be in if you're facing Luigi in the air, and that is above him (Fox's Dair > Luigi's Uair). Fair is not bad in this matchup, but Luigi is just so retardedly good in the air, I usually won't risk it.

Just shield well, camp well, and don't get greedy. This isn't a hard matchup, it's just pretty annoying.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

lasers lasers lasers, seriously more lasers.
they help so much in this fight.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

lasers lasers lasers, seriously more lasers.
they help so much in this fight.

Look at uzi trying to help whichever way he can, you the man uzi XDXDXDXDXDXDXD
I LOVE LASERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zephil]

I think Nair works wonders as defensive move and in the air as it is one of fox´s fastest move so if you found in a moment for example you just SHfair but you didn´t connect the last hit, most of the times you end over luigi so just as you miss you Nair and you get another hit... i really love Fair->Nair... they almost never expect it

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I think Nair works wonders as defensive move and in the air as it is one of fox´s fastest move so if you found in a moment for example you just SHfair but you didn´t connect the last hit, most of the times you end over luigi so just as you miss you Nair and you get another hit... i really love Fair->Nair... they almost never expect it

Yes Fair>Nair is amazing and im glad we're all picking that up... Nair's knockback is so good

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

lasers lasers lasers, seriously more lasers.
they help so much in this fight.

Look at uzi trying to help whichever way he can, you the man uzi XDXDXDXDXDXDXD
I LOVE LASERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

well they do
with luigi having a superior air game he's going to try and use that on you a lot and keep air born, when hes doing this you can get off shdl many times and he can only stop them by air dodging.
also luigi is hard to get in on and combo so more lasers from a distance helps dramatically.

(advice form a noob so take what you want from it)

 

[718_ROOKI3]

well they do
with luigi having a superior air game he's going to try and use that on you a lot and keep air born, when hes doing this you can get off shdl many times and he can only stop them by air dodging.
also luigi is hard to get in on and combo so more lasers from a distance helps dramatically.

(advice form a noob so take what you want from it)

Son if anyone mained fox and didnt run and gun you belong to the AIB Boards Seriously.

 

[Pancakesyo]

Combo-ing a luigi is F hard !


but yeah i agree

F-air N-air

works marvelous :]

 

[Fenrir VII]

Lugi's utilt wrecks you. horrible horrible move.


Anyways... This is kind of a nightmare match if you go into as you do all your other matchups. You really have to play quite differently. I just have one word for Fox mains out there: Usmash.

Seriously, Usmash is a saving grace in this match. You can usually trade with or beat Luigi aerials with it... and end a lot of his shield pressuring game, since his range is bad enough to allow for shield Usmash's use. And since Luigi is slower and floaty, landing lasers to refill it is a great idea. His only fast approach is tornado, which is punishable, when expected.

You also really need to be spot on with your edgeguarding here. I actually think Fox wins the edgeguarding/recovery war here, since you can cover most of his options with one placement, where as, he has to guess you out to punish your recovery. Shine beats all of his stuff, but I wouldn't rely on it. rising dairs, nairs, and fairs can really screw his recovery over, and they're all much safer than shine. Then supposing you miss the rest, edgehogging his upB gives you a free smash on stage. not too shabby.

Bair spacing (as I've grown to use even more lately) is VERY nice in this match... as are situational fairs. I would probably stay away from any kind of JJC, although Uzi got JJCS>dash attack to work, so maybe...

If you guess luigi in the air, a FH dair is very good, but I would not use it if the luigi is grounded.

Luigi just has a LOT of options here... He's hard to guess out, and has very nice quick attacking moves, great priority, gets out of your combos easily, and combos you back. Pretty harsh... Fox needs to use his stronger attacks here, with better spcing, rather than trying for nuts combos.

Overall, Luigi wins the matchup. Good shield pressure, escapes from combos, air control, variety really help him here.

I think with good spacing, smart play (of course), and good edgeguarding, the match gets closer to even... but it's still quite hard. Lasers really help Fox here, so i could imagine camping for a lot of the match, and being quite effective with it.

For a score, I'd have to say anything on a range from 6-4 Luigi to 7-3 Luigi here... just a hard matchup, guys.

 

[SnowballBob33]

7-3 really?
I know its hard but its not that dam hard. Utilt twice then block his nair then throw. If he start bairing like crazy, run and gun. Dont try gimping him, his tornado has really good priority and if u mess up it sends u flying in random azz directions and you die. Dont do dash attack too much because he can nair it. Fair beats out his tiny pathetic arms. He does have some ridiculous combos on you but its not game ending. His smashes have lag except fsmash.
6-4 i guess. If I remember correctly, I beat Boss's luigi before so it cant be that bad.

 

[Fenrir VII]

7-3 really?
I know its hard but its not that dam hard. Utilt twice then block his nair then throw. If he start bairing like crazy, run and gun. Dont try gimping him, his tornado has really good priority and if u mess up it sends u flying in random azz directions and you die. Dont do dash attack too much because he can nair it. Fair beats out his tiny pathetic arms. He does have some ridiculous combos on you but its not game ending. His smashes have lag except fsmash.
6-4 i guess. If I remember correctly, I beat Boss's luigi before so it cant be that bad.

Tornado has a very predictable path, and isn't hard to land a nair through, if nothing else... Sure, if you miss it's bad, but... it's not hard to just not miss here.

Fox fair beats Luigi Fair out, but is beaten by Bair, so that's a bit tricky. It's also beaten by luigi staying uder it and smashing.

The only way to continue combos is to shield in between...which is fine, really... but it makes it interesting.

The main this is that Luigi can put damage on you very well...maybe better than you can return it, really. It's close. And he has several very good killing options as well.
He has a good pressure game, variable approaches and tactics to throw you off.

The only areas I honestly believe Fox wins in this match are camping and edgeguarding vs. recovery (oddly)

Also, angled up Fsmash from him kills you incredibly well and is super fast.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I just camp and space correct i try not to stress how dumb luigi can be sometimes

 

[RPK]

Son if anyone mained fox and didnt run and gun you belong to the AIB Boards Seriously.

Hey now...AiB isnt that bad...I got an account on there >_> Though for me...
-matches [no]
-learning new things [no]
-learning match ups [no]
-good forums [no]

-Meeting people in the area [Yes]
-Socializing [yes]
-Finding many many many many many many many many many local tournaments in the area [yes]

Its basically a Myspace for smashers. So its a nice place.

Anyways, Luigi...I hate the guy...And I find trouble going through his tornado. It's a really quick, and I dont know what to use to get through it.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

Hey now...AiB isnt that bad...I got an account on there >_> Though for me...
-matches [no]
-learning new things [no]
-learning match ups [no]
-good forums [no]

-Meeting people in the area [Yes]
-Socializing [yes]
-Finding many many many many many many many many many local tournaments in the area [yes]

Its basically a Myspace for smashers. So its a nice place.

Anyways, Luigi...I hate the guy...And I find trouble going through his tornado. It's a really quick, and I dont know what to use to get through it.

i got an account too i even play the AiB ladder there, doesnt negate the fact AiB sucks balls

 

[Zephil]

Xiivi: "Go back to the topic guys, leave this for the Social topic"

man I would miss those posts...

Anyways... lets see weegee... is a pain in the ***.. jjc is not so useful here because is too risky, his nair is one of those moves that defies physics in this game like G&W´s d-smash (seriously how can a hammer hitting the ground can send you inmediatly to the air!!) and is really strong so is really dangerous...I agree in all Fenrir stated: spam our lovely U-smash and refresh it with lasers thanks to floaty luigi... those two moves are the key for this matchup... the strategy hit and run is really useful here also because the fireballs are slow and their distance is pretty low... sorry if didn´t posted nothing useful are new but this is one of those matchups that I only know a couple of things

 

[718_ROOKI3]

xiivi: "go Back To The Topic Guys, Leave This For The Social Topic"

Man I Would Miss Those Posts...

werd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!