Match-Up Export #2: Snake | Creating Summary

[Conviction]

Match-Up Export
Fox vs. Snake​

________________________________

Things to keep in mind while discussing!

* Keep a proper wording, 
don't insult or yell at the other people discussing inside of this thread. 
Although that shouldn't even be mentioned, I've seen it happen.

* Match-Up ratios are fairly subjective. 
However, please don't overrate or underestimate a character. 
Stuff like "lol, X can't do anything, RAEP!" is not going to aid us in our discussion.

* Don't theorycraft too much. 
Keep in mind that while Fox or the character we're discussing in this thread
are able to do a certain move at a certain time, don't just throw this out, 
but rather think if this is actually practical and used by good players of these characters.

* If you are new to the discussion, please don't state trivial things.
Best would be to read the discussion properly, 
or at least the first and last few pages should the thread go on for a while already. 
Saying "Fox can reflect all of X's projectiles." might be true, 
but probably has already been mentioned.

* Discussions will be held for about 2 weeks - unless the need of expanding is felt.
The first week will bring a temporary ratio that then will corrected during the second.

With this in mind, we shall start the discussion!

________________________________

SOLID SNAKE

KEY POINTS

Advantages


Disadvantages


Summary


IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game:
Ground Game:
Approach:
Defense:
Camping Game:
Edge Game:
Surviving:
Killing:
Frame Data:

Stages
Stage Striking
* Possible Fox Strikes
* Possible Snake Strikes
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
[COLOR="Yellow"]Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly a starter, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Banning
* Possible Fox Bans
* Possible Snake Bans
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Counterpicks
* Possible Fox Counterpicks
* Possible Snake Counterpicks
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Possible Secondaries


Videos & Other Outside Resources

Videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C02cRQaseQg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIO9e_ukW-U

Verdict
55:45 ​

 

[Ken Neth]

I fight a fox regularly, and I fought a couple good foxes at Genesis. I believe this matchup is 50:50 or really close to it. I'll post more later once the discussion gets going.

 

[Virgman]

I agree with Ken Neth. The matchup is either 60:40 in Snakes favor or 50:50. I play the top Snakes in Fl and have found out that Fox can hold his own against Snake. If a snake tries to camp me, I camp him instead by shooting his grenades either right when he throws them (causing them to blow up and giving him damage) or somewhere in between us. That rids me of the grenade and still gives him damage from the laser. After that they usually force an approach. But being a tall character makes this easy to punish. Fox's forward air shield pokes majority of large characters around 90 percent of the time for me, even with a full shield. Here's the strategy: SH > fair. Once Snake is in the air, he doesn't have alot of options. Since Fox has multiple alternatives from below, I'm able to punish the garbage out of air dodgers or burst bairs. The damage usually racks up pretty quick. Some people think that this matchup is in snake's favor because he's so heavy and strong, while Fox is lightweight. On most stages, Fox and Snake generally die at the same percent (if you know how to DI properly). Snake can kill Fox with an utilt around 100 percent and Fox can kill snake with upsmash around 104 percent. The advantage that we have over snake is speed, laser cancels (which really mindgames alot of people), and the fact that we can combo WITH A MULTIHIT ATTACK (meaning it shield pokes) into our kill move. Snake can't combo into anything. He just has to guess and hope his disjointed hitboxes land. So don't worry about Fox's weight. My Fox generally lives up to 140 percent per stock, sometimes dies at a lower percent. But only sometimes. So my key tactic that works majority of the time, and has brought me a ton of victories over snakes, is FAIR.

When I ban stages, I usually ban Lylat. The stage is perfect for Snake to lay mines and c4 on top platforms, leaving only one platform to jump on or reside under. All the while he is pressuring you with grenades. The disadvantage is that he limits Fox's mobility while dealing damage at the same time, so it's hard to punish him for it. Plus the c4 is hard to see, especially against alot of the background. So I usually ban that stage.

My counterpick for Snake is either Halberd or Frigate Orpheon. Halberd because of the low ceiling. And if Snake tries to camp you, the stage is small enough for you to punish him with attacks instead of just the laser. Again, I don't worry about Fox's weight. Fox can combo into his kill move. Snake cannot.
As for Frigate, it is simply my counterpick for everyone except MK. The side with no edge has set people up for an upsmash so many times. I see it in Fox's favor.

I think that if snakes were to ban a stage it would be battlefield. That's another one of my CPs and I do really well on that. Sure it has platforms that snake can zone, but the level is alot smaller than Lylat and the top platform is a safe zone from all the explosions. As for a CP against Fox, I think snakes would pick Japes, Lylat, and Halberd. Lylat has already been explained and Halberd because of the low ceiling. Now Japes......I don't know why Snakes would pick that stage...they just do for some reason. The only reason I see is this: high ceiling is terrible for Fox. Takes alot longer to kill people.

Overall, Fox is a great character to fight Snakes with. Mainly because of the lasers, shield poking with fair, and of course, the infamous upsmash. He is one of the few characters who can kill Snake at a decently early percent. Snakes fear that junk. Makes me smile.

 

[SCOTU]

This is a very close matchup, IMO. The key here is to not be forced into anything, while simultaneously forcing the snake into everything you want. Snake tries to do this by making you explode when you come near, or by keeping you away with his massive *** ****... er... tilts. Fox can keep the snake nading down to a minimum by lasering. It not only adds a fair amount of pressure, does more damage than nades, but it also shoots nades down, making them almost never get to you, and more commonly blow up near the snake or his other ordinances.

Fox has a **** nice thing going for him if he can land a hit/grab on snake. pretty much all of fox's moves/grabs can lead to snake being above you, which is exactly where you want him. If snake's in the air, and you're not, you're winning. Uthrow makes a startling good choice in this matchup, as it put snake at an amazing place. dash attack, utilt, usmash, fair all also put snake in a tough spot. Snake really can't do anything once he's being juggled. The best he can do is try to drop a grenade (shine it, or grab him), drop a C4 (pick one side of it-- the side that snake is moving in the direction of-- and if he goes to the other side dash, short hop air dodge, and then get to where he's going to land. If he's going to land right on it, simply shield), or falling nair. The nair is the trickiest one if they know how to autocancel the nair just by doing it from being juggled, but your best bet is probably to shield the nair, or get behind him and grab (boost pivot grab anyone?). The goal once you get a hit is simple, keep hitting snake upwards.

Ok, so, here's the part that makes it hard. You've actually got to hit snake. Snake's filt, and jabs make him very difficult to approach from the sides alone. Your best bet is to try to dash powershield the ftilt, and then immediately jab>grab him. Naturally this means you also need a suitable mixup. Jumping a bit ahead of time drifting back and illusioning through him if he whiffs an ftilt, or landing and then dash grab if he shields. But this is the hard way. The easiest angle for fox to attack (from his short hop height) is also very inconveniently the same angle that gets covered by both snake's ftilt and utilt. Jumping directly above snake can be risky, cause you've got to land (make sure to make use of the fair/ double jump, illusion if you're forced into landing near snake and he hasn't whiffed an attack). Here's where the stupid hard attack angle comes in. Fox can sort of approach by full hoping, but then cutting it short at about 3/4 the height with a shine, and then either shining again, or dropping with an aerial. The same angle can be made if you're falling down from doing a bit of aerial maneuvering and you just shine at the right height, but this still works best from a dash. nair can go into either usmash, utilt, or grab depending on percent. If you ever find yourself clashing a snake ftilt your best options are to dash back a step and stutter step an fsmash back at him (circumventing another ftilt), or to run at him and dash attack far past where he's standing now (if you expect him to walk away after clashing). If you ever know you're going to get ftilted, try SDIing the first hit behind snake and then either shining or utilting.

Offstage is pretty standard in this matchup, Snake's not too good at gimping fox, nor is fox particularly good at gimping snake. The only real thing that's wierd is that you have to either bair/uair snake out of his up-b to break it.

Overall, I'd put the matchup at about 50:50, maybe 55:45 in favor of Fox.

Good Luck, and Good Hunting.

 

[RPK]

Its not really that weird. Its just that Snake has super armor during his up b, and only by performing a move that does I believe...9% or more will be able to break it. Pretty silly if you ask me. Also!! Liek! You can grb snek ot if his cypher n he lses hs up b aftrrrrwrds :B

Of course when striking out stages, youd want to stay clear of Battlefield. Unless you like small places where you can run, in addition to being even more limited by his grenades, land mines, and C4. And the occasional mortar...He'll probably end up striking FD, and you two will most likely play on Smashville since for some places thats the only place left. Like in my region. Yay only 3 neutral stages!

Speaking of which...Nair...Nair will eat through those mortars. Either that or a nicely placed Dair. That move will eat through a mortar that is shot up at you.

Also, getting grabbed by Snake is also bad. Depending on where the mine is, stay away from it. Unless you like the following...
Grab release->Mine->Uair Yay for like...30ish damage

He also has the ability to throw you into the land mines. By that I mean, if its sitting on a platform, he can grab you and throw you into it, and you'll get hit. So be aware of not getting grabbed. If a Snake expects you to come down, he can boost pivot grab to get out of the way of your aerials and get a free grab from it.

Snake also has a few tricks up his sleeve...For example, after saying "Now!" he doesnt have much lag after that. So he isnt as vaunerable as youd think he'd be after that. In addition, Snakes like usuing that lagless fair of theirs. If youve played enough, you should be able to determine if its a lagless one or not depending on when they start up the fair. If you jump in, to try and punish him for it, and it's lagless, Im pretty **** sure your going to be eating a f-tilt to the face, or an uptilt and end up getting yourself killed. Dont fall into their trap! If you do get hit with a Fair, mash up. You'll end up DIing out of the Fair and hopefully into a good position on snake.

 

[SuSa]

Has to do over 7%, not 9%.

We only lose our up-B if you air release us (unless you grabbed us at the edge).

 

[Fenrir VII]

For the most part, I'll let other people discuss this... if only because I don't feel like saying everything other people have already said...

Couple notes, though...

Hard Nair, Bair, and Uair all break Snake's upB.
If you can make Snake recover low (Dsmash yay!), you're usually going to get a few more hits in, or a tricky kill, before he can get back to the stage...just due to the nature of Snake's recovery

WATCH YOUR ROLLS!!!!! Seriously... so many Snakes just try to bait rolls... and it's so effective. I've seen so many Foxes fall into this.


Stages:

BF is a good Snake stage overall... On paper, BF is Snake's, and FD is Fox's...
I'm opposite of this, though, to be honest... I do pretty well on BF...actually better than I do on FD... pretty weird.
I also do well on Lylat... just keep track of the C4 and you're ok... the stage is actually set up in Fox's favor (watch those ledges, though)... but the large nature of the stage, and good platforms make it so easy to camp and platform trap...
Castle Siege is one of my best CPs here... just seems to mess with Snake, for unknown reasons...
Orpheon is almost always a solid choice.



Also, Dthrow always leads to something, with proper play... Watch their DI and jumps, and you can almost always snag another grab or Fair at lowish %s.

K I'm done for now

 

[Zephil]

People remember Snake´s dthrow... a good Snake can read you perfectly and you could get easily more than 30% because of this. never get up the same way, if you are too obvious in you this, Snake would cg you. Also Snake have set ups that could force you to get up in a certain way for example he dthrow you and you have in front of you a C4 so you instead decide to roll back, just what Snake expected and there you go... cg again... forcing you to reduce your options to get up is very common in good Snakes so you have to play smart when you are trying to get up.

Be careful of platforms also for dthrow, platforms are small so being cg is easier

 

[DarkAura]

ok this has probably been mentioned before but im just scanning through the posts...

lasers do NOT "shut down" snakes grenades they hardly hit them close enough to snake to actually damage him and half the time lasers won't hit the grenade mid air despite the amount of lasers you can fire, not many of them will hit the grenade.

Due to snakes body position when holding grenades lasers can't hit them directly so even though people are always like lasers shut down grenades, they arent THAT awesome against grenades.

i would still recommend SHDLs, SHLs, SHTLs (if you moon doggie or RPK ) or standing lasers for the ninjas cause you can get an easy 10-20% on snake

 

[SnowballBob33]

Basically what scotu said. Keep him above you and falling. Uthrow is a great way to get him up and at low percents you can tech chase him. He has very few options when he's falling. 1) Bair. This gets blocked and punished easily. 2)Airdodge. It doesn't work on fox because he is fast and has good moves to "catch" him. Dash attack pops him back up to where you want him. His boost grab has A LOT of range meaning you can run and grab a long distance. 3)Grenade/Bstick. Bstick is his best option and leaves snake in a good spot. 4)Nair is situational depending on height. If he does get it off don't try to hit him.

Grenades and lasers basically cancel each other out. He nades you shoot and blow them up. Depending on whos winning wins the camp battle because either he crouches or approaches.

Try to stay in the middle of the stage when fighting and at the ledge when camping. You don't want to be stuck by the ledge getting hit by tilts and not able to escape. At the ledge when camping so you are out of dacus range and have enough time to respond to nades.

When he does mortar, just shine it and it turns into yours.
I say 50-50.

 

[M@v]

I'll write more later.

This is is 55:45 fox IMO. You shut down his nades, you force him to approach, you have good combos on him, your one of few characters that can kill him below 150% reliably, and its easy to edgeguard him.

Snake's advantages on you: His uptilt completely ****s you. seriously. It tears through everything you have, kills you madd early, and its hitbox is ********.

Its slightly weaker than your upsmash, but its faster, much farther range, and higher priority, so its the better move.

on a side note: Imo snake's uptilt and fox's upsmash are 2 of the top5kill moves in the game.

 

[Zhamy]

I think SCOTU covered a lot of how Fox can play the matchup; details can obviously still be filled in. We need some more Snake mains in here, though.

Anyway, stages:

Battlefield

This stage works much more heavily in Snake's favor than in Fox's. The reason why? The platforms. Stage control is too easy to set up, and if Snake is camping a platform well, it can be difficult to force him into a bad position. They also hinder as much as help Fox in getting Snake in the air (which is where you want him). Watch out for C4s on platforms - they limit your mobility.

Final Destination

Rejoice if you get this stage. Most likely, it'll be banned, but if you do play on here, consider it a free pass to camp your way to a win. Nothing really hinders you, and this is more or less your best stage in this matchup.

Smashville

The moving platform is mostly a hindrance, since Snake gains the advantage of being able to plant projectiles on there, while Fox gains nothing. Ideally, Snake will move along with the platform, giving him a pseudo-safe approach and retreat (since Fox has a difficult time approaching when Snake's Utilt will cover a huge chunk of the platform).

Yoshi's Island (Brawl)

This stage and Smashville both have rather annoying platforms, so it really comes down to preference. I prefer Smashville because Snake can control the center of the stage on YI better, but gives him less room to move around since you can "safely" camp the edges of the stage.

Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1

ohgod my touhou download just finished okay i will do these later goodbye

 

[AvaricePanda]

DarkAura already said this, but:

Lasers DO NOT shut down Snake's grenades, but they do greatly hinder his camping. You'll rarely ever explode a grenade near Snake's face with a laser due to just the way he can hold and throw the grenades. However, he isn't going to want to camp, or he'll just get blasted with a ton of lasers. This is why FD is a really good stage for this match-up, and SV really isn't; on SV, Snake can still camp you to some extent.

 

[Toronto Joe]

played Ally yesterday, we both came to the conclusion its in Snakes favor, 55:45 being generous but leaning towards 60:40, not saying this cause he ***** me(even though he did LOL) tl;dr he said Snake has more range,power and options against Fox, i found it incredibly hard to kill him, his insane DI combined with perfect spacing made K.Oing much harder then i originally found the matchup to be....lol i just remembered i forgot to pay ally for winning the mm,im sorry =$

once i was offstage i found no matter what i did i was getting punished, if he was on the edge while i was recovering id get baird/uair or he would have a c4 set up to get me if i made it onto the stage, even at the edge he would just take away all my options and id be falling into his traps...

we saved the replays so hopefully you guys can see how i suck and how Ally is too good

 

[DarkAura]

if you "suck" and i get ***** by you i must be mega garbage compared to the high level tourney scene T_T

 

[Zephil]

Ally is just inhuman... thats all...

Fox vs Snake 50-50

Fox vs Ally 40-60

 

[Fenrir VII]

Snake does indeed have more range and power (save Usmash) than Fox, but at the same time, almost all of Snake's options are risky against Fox.... after any tilts, you can get at least a grab to get snake into the air and punish... after a snake dash, you can punish like mad...

And Fox can actually approach Snake, if he absolutely needs to for some reason...

The Nade's game...

While Fox cannot shut down all threats of grenades, with proper lasering avoiding or even picking up the grenades and throw back, or dash shield kamikaze, Fox can make any sort of grenade game VERY risky for Snake...

Generally, Snake can just sit back and lob grenades all day, and against Fox, he just can't...


Simple Facts about the match:

If Snake is above Fox, he is in trouble
Fox can put Snake above him very easily from an unpunishable PWG, among other things
Snake cannot safely use tilts or his camping game
Snake Has to recover high, going back to my first option... meaning, if you get Snake off stage, you should be able to put more damage on him.


Seriously, if Fox were just a BIT heavier, I'd give it to him easily, but as it is, since he dies so fast, the matchup is mostly even.

 

[Toronto Joe]

some stuff to look out for usually he would just throw the first hit out if he saw me shielding,wait for me to roll behind him(dont roll behind snake its really bad,if you roll forward he can dash attack or maybe dash grab) and pivot grab/turn around ftilt me me, he'd do the same thing with his AAA combo,throw the 1st hit out and if i shield it just regrab me, tbh Ally barely used any grenades on me while i was on the stage,if he was a good distance away he would throw some at me but he didnt really give me an oppurtunity to shut his nade game down,rarely did he use nades =[

but yeah, Ally is inhuman so i think 55;45 Snake is fair

 

[Fenrir VII]

some stuff to look out for usually he would just throw the first hit out if he saw me shielding,wait for me to roll behind him(dont roll behind snake its really bad,if you roll forward he can dash attack or maybe dash grab) and pivot grab/turn around ftilt me me, he'd do the same thing with his AAA combo,throw the 1st hit out and if i shield it just regrab me, tbh Ally barely used any grenades on me while i was on the stage,if he was a good distance away he would throw some at me but he didnt really give me an oppurtunity to shut his nade game down,rarely did he use nades =[

but yeah, Ally is inhuman so i think 55;45 Snake is fair

WATCH YOUR ROLLS!!!!! Seriously... so many Snakes just try to bait rolls... and it's so effective. I've seen so many Foxes fall into this.

When you camp, if you can shut down a grenade game without approaching, Snake will have to approach. In all my experience from Snakes (including Afro), Snake only has two real reliable approaches against Fox... Snake Dash and just walk up to zone a shield...

Against Snake dash, utilt, jab, shield, usmash, dsmash, dair, and quite a few other things just beat it... FH Dair outprioritizes the little missle, and still attacks snake, without you getting hit... it's perfect. Snake Dash, I think, is a crutch for Snake players... they shouldn't be using it so much.

against zoning, be careful. They WANT you to roll behind. jumping gets you out of this situation, or you can run and get a grab, sometimes... just don't roll behind. It is better if you avoid the situation before Snake gets too close to you.

Epic Quote wall to show truth. SNAKES BAIT ROLLS VERY WELL. DO NOT PLAY PREDICTABLY. I'm only saying this this much because it is so important.

Seriously, roll away (depending on where you are on the stage) or jump is your best option when snake starts zoning like this... or bait a grab and spot dodge it...

 

[AvaricePanda]

)

If Snake is above Fox, he is in trouble
Fox can put Snake above him very easily from an unpunishable PWG, among other things
Snake cannot safely use tilts or his camping game
Snake Has to recover high, going back to my first option... meaning, if you get Snake off stage, you should be able to put more damage on him.


Seriously, if Fox were just a BIT lighter heavier, I'd give it to him easily, but as it is, since he dies so fast, the matchup is mostly even.

Fixed lol.

I don't agree or understand the bolded part.

How/when would you be able to get in a boosted pivot grab and have it be unpunishable?
How come Snake can't safely use his tilts? His U-tilt and F-tilt both have incredibly disjointed range, U-tilt is a very safe kill move, and F-tilt at max or good range would be safe as long as he doesn't hit with the second as you're shielding (and even maybe safe if he hits with both).

Otherwise, yeah, I'm seeing this as somewhere around even to maybe 55-45 either way but I'm not really sure which.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Fixed lol.

I don't agree or understand the bolded part.

How/when would you be able to get in a boosted pivot grab and have it be unpunishable?
How come Snake can't safely use his tilts? His U-tilt and F-tilt both have incredibly disjointed range, U-tilt is a very safe kill move, and F-tilt at max or good range would be safe as long as he doesn't hit with the second as you're shielding (and even maybe safe if he hits with both).

Otherwise, yeah, I'm seeing this as somewhere around even to maybe 55-45 either way but I'm not really sure which.

Thanks for that... I was in a hurry... lol

Snake is all about the shield and dodges... He has several ways to beat an approach, and I'll list them

Jab/tilt is probably the best, but it's also risky... I'll explain later
hold shield
Spot dodge
pivot grab back, or standing grab (very risky)
jump
rolls ( I guess, but impractical...)

Ok... Fox can shield usmash Snake's tilts, unless they are perfectly spaced, which, when Fox is approaching with a possible dash shield, they won't be perfectly spaced, due to the sliding effect of the dash shield.
This implies that using the second hit of Ftilt, third hit of jab, and utilt are all risky, since Fox can get a grab or usmash, etc, out of a sliding shield.

Does this eliminate the use of his tilts? no, but it detracts from it by making them much riskier... Snake can still zone with single jabs and tilts, with good spacing (grab beats them), but finishing anything, or using utilt is risky. And given Fox's speed and good sliding dash shield, he has a decent time bypassing the tilts and jabs (overgeneralization... just making a point... of course this doesn't eliminate the use of tilts, but Fox can punish better than most chars)

If Fox, for some reason, has to approach, either dash shield or PWG is always going to be safe... one of them is, at least.. If PWG allows Fox to slide behind Snake (as in, Snake doesn't hit Fox before he is behind him...which given the shield camping nature of the character is understandable), then Fox cannot be punished. he slides too far away for any retribution.

This tactic even grabs spot dodges, sometimes...

That's mainly what I'm meaning... I always feel rushed when I post lately. blahh... sorry for any unclear comments.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Ah, alright then.

The boosted pivot grab seems like something that won't be able to happen often in a match (risk of becoming predictable and getting punished) but I see what you're saying. Thanks.

and lol, I know that it's you posting because I see a lot of...ellipsis...
._.

 

[Curaga]

Just to sum some stuff up, before I add my input later..

Biggest problem here is ..

GRAB and TECH CHASES after a grab.

I have.. major problems getting grabbed.. I shame the Fox boards..
..

Btw. Get Snake off stage. Let him Up-B, keep him off. If he need to Down-B to recover..

1.Jump off stage
2.Shine stall above him.
3. Foot-stool.
4. Laugh.

The last part is very important.

~~~
You want to ban Halberd. Its annoying to get rid of one of our best stages.. but necessary.

Where should we take a Snake? And how should we play to avoid being grabbed?

 

[Virgman]

Fair that cat. He can't do anything about it.

 

[DarkAura]

Fair that cat. He can't do anything about it.

ftilt has more priority and his lame hitboxes will hit you if he times it right

 

[Red Arremer]

Oh yes, good old Snake.
The only Top Tier character I haven't played a lot yet... Maybe I should change that.

I like playing against Snakes. Unfortunately, we have no people seriously playing him here.
In any case... those tilts are scary, don't underestimate them, kay?

Going from my own knowledge and especially TO Joe's experiences vs. Ally, Fox is able to effectively shut down Snake's camping game. Maybe not completely, but definitely better than most characters. Ally probably knew this thus his rare use of nades.

Snake's groundgame outclasses Fox's, especially the tilts. Furthermore, Snake does have far better killing options than Fox, and Fox has an insanely hard time killing Snake, especially if it's one able to use DI properly. Also, always beware of mortar slides.

Fox's airgame is clearly superior to Snake's, however, don't underestimate Snake's aerials. Although they are sluggish, they pack quite a punch. Luckily, though, Snake's offstage game is not that good, so the chances of you getting gimped are low. Though beware of grenades as edgeguard.

Now for the dangerous stuff. Snake is incredibly good at baiting and punishing with his DThrow and tilts. Always be on your toes, and, as has been said several times, do not roll. His grab is better than Fox's, especially the dashgrab.

Keeping Snake above you is a good idea, but keep in mind that he has no landing lag when he has a grenade in his hand and lands on a dropthrough platform. Use your overall great mobility to space safely. Never get too close above him - his UTilt is ridiculous.

Fox's killing ... I dunno. It's really hard to finish Snake off reliably with Fox, especially if Snake is good in DIing. USmash won't work until higher percent due to the insane weight of Snake and his good momentum cancelling. Going offstage is not all too reliable either, although if he uses Cypher, you can at least get an FAir or so in.

In this matchup, Fox definitely has to be unpredictable, otherwise he's prone to get screwed over. I think, considering these facts, I'm torn in between 55:45 and 60:40 in Snake's favour. I tend more towards the more even matchup, though.

 

[DarkAura]

ok remember last page when i said lasers don't shut down nades very well? well i was completely wrong, i had some friendlies with snake main just now and and between the constant assault of SHDLs and SHTLs when he was wating for his nades to time out next all of them Blew him up, After 2 matches he stopped using them showing it can affect how the snake plays.

It all depends on the position of the laser and the time it hits but if your consistent enough with a high-ish laser your good

 

[Virgman]

ok remember last page when i said lasers don't shut down nades very well? well i was completely wrong, i had some friendlies with snake main just now and and between the constant assault of SHDLs and SHTLs when he was wating for his nades to time out next all of them Blew him up, After 2 matches he stopped using them showing it can affect how the snake plays.

It all depends on the position of the laser and the time it hits but if your consistent enough with a high-ish laser your good

I'm glad you've experienced the goodness for yourself ^.^. Noms.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I didn't see this mentioned earlier, so why not.
I found this really useful and super awesome technique to use against Snake that pretty much shuts down his Nades and D-smash mine thing. What you do is, you stand near them or up to about 2 character lengths away and you Illusion through the nade or the mine. What happens is, you Illusion past them, and on your way through, you make them explode behind you without getting hit by the blast. So what you do is, if Snake is standing close to a mine or a nade, you Illusion through it and make it blow up in his face. I swear it works every time. You can't use it from too far away though, other wise you'll get hit by the blast. Try it out though and see what you think.

 

[DarkAura]

doesn't work unfortunately illusion isn't fast enough/have enough priority to avoid the affects of a mine, it blows him right out of illusion (personal experience) however this does work for nades

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Illusion does work on mines. I've done it myself tones of times. You were probably using Illusion from to far away. That's why I said you need to stand near them or up to two character lengths away. I also said you can't use it from too far away other wise you'll get hit by the blast. Trust me, it works, and it's awesome.

 

[DarkAura]

ah yes i stand corrected...

also i can only remember illusioning from a distance so i guess that's it.

 

[Virgman]

That's nice. I'm gonna have to try this out. Good job FOD.

 

[Curaga]

Biggest problem here is ..

GRAB and TECH CHASES after a grab.

I have.. major problems getting grabbed.. I shame the Fox boards..

..and how should we play to avoid being grabbed?

Can someone help me and discuss this as well? Its a big problem against a Snake who's familiar with the Fox match-up.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Curaga: Spaced Bairs, Fairs, and utilts, mixed with grabs to discourage shielding, really limit a grab game...
Also, upone being dthrown, you have to realize that roll forward and back are punishable on reaction... stand up has to be guessed, and get up attack punishes a bit for guessing something else...

Really, stand up and getup attack are the SAFEST options... but once again, if you're predictable, they're super punishable, too... standup is generally really good for the initial surprise...

Also, getting up the same way a coulpe of times really throws some snakes off... read the player, rather than the attack... try to out think them while getting up.




I have bad experiences illusioning and blowing up with the grenades, but if it is just a spacing issue, this is quite a nice little tricksy to add to the collection. : )

 

[Red Arremer]

After almost a week I think we can settle on a matchup ratio for now. I'll put down 55:45.

We can start the in-depth discussion now, with stages, strategies for Fox and what have you. It's all in the OP.

 

[Zhamy]

I'm assuming you mean 55:45 in Snake's favor?

 

[Red Arremer]

Yes, I do mean in Snake's favour.

 

[718_ROOKI3]

I put this on Xiivi's thread so i'll just put it here now

Stage striking-
1. Battlefield
2. Lylat

Stage banning-
1. Halberd
2. Lylat
3. Brinstar
4. Delfino
5. Frigate

Stage Cp'ing-
1. Castle siege
2. Final D
3. PS1
4. Smashville
5. Yoshi's (Brawl)

Aerial game -You destroy snake in the aerial field.

Rising fairs- Snake is big, so he is an easy target. Also he is weak from the front so rising fairs are safer than usual.

Rising uairs- Snake is weak from the bottom so get underneath him. Juggling him is possible if you read his airdodges.

Strong bairs- Hitting snake with that bair is really good in this match. It has great knockback and it keeps you safe fom most of snakes physical attacks.

Ground game- Snake is tough fist to fist,(but i personally fight him that way). Stay away from the tilts they build too much damage. As soon as you have the opportunity to grab him throw him away and get some lasers off.

Fox does have combos:
Dash attack>utilt x2 or x3
Dash attack>utilt x2>Usmash
Dash attack>utilt x2>dair>jab>grab
Dash attack>utilt x2>dair>AAA
Etc.....Snake is like a sandbag 0-5 percent. Try your best to combo him.

Counter Characters (against snake) - DDD, MK, Kirby, Wario

IMO Match Up Ratio 50-50

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

That's nice. I'm gonna have to try this out. Good job FOD.

I hate to go off topic, but FOD? That's a new one XD. Try Fox or FIOD or Foxy or something.

But anyway, to break Snake out of his cypher (In case anyone doesn't already know) use Bair Uair or the hard hit of Nair. (Bair is too **** good!)

I can sum this matchup with this...