Match up Export #16: Samus| Complete.....almost

[Conviction]

Match-Up Export
Fox vs. Samus​

________________________________

Things to keep in mind while discussing!

* Keep a proper wording, 
don't insult or yell at the other people discussing inside of this thread. 
Although that shouldn't even be mentioned, I've seen it happen.

* Match-Up ratios are fairly subjective. 
However, please don't overrate or underestimate a character. 
Stuff like "lol, X can't do anything, RAEP!" is not going to aid us in our discussion.

* How Do We Judge Ratios?

To assign ratios, one must know what each ratio mean.

50:50 - Neutral/Even. Both characters have an equal amount of advantages and disadvantages against each other. The degrees of punishment and tactical efficiency are accurately similar on both sides.

60:40 - Advantage/Disadvantage. One character has something over the other character that puts him/her in a bad position, be it long range, fast speed, high juggle ability, etc. While the lesser character can get around it, it'll often be a nuisance to get around.

70:30 - Heavy Advantage/Disadvantage. The winning character capitalizes on the losing character quite hard. Usually in these cases, it's the winning character has a strength, that directly goes against the character's weakness. For instance X Character is fast and has long range, while Y character is slow and has short range.

80:20 - Extreme Advantage/Disadvantage. Winning Character has something so huge over the losing character that it over-centralizes the match-up(DDD vs DK comes to mind). This starts to enter the realm of unwinnable, though not quite there.

I won't go any higher/lower than that. I also didn't do anything in-between because it's far too specific to go into, though that doesn't mean the ratios can't be used. It mainly pertains to varying degrees when looking at advantages/disadvantages.

When that understood, the rest is easy(not really). Compare and Contrast all advantages and disadvantages of each character, and see which character has the better advantage.


* Don't theorycraft too much. 
Keep in mind that while Fox or the character we're discussing in this thread
are able to do a certain move at a certain time, don't just throw this out, 
but rather think if this is actually practical and used by good players of these characters.

* If you are new to the discussion, please don't state trivial things.
Best would be to read the discussion properly, 
or at least the first and last few pages should the thread go on for a while already. 
Saying "Fox can reflect all of X's projectiles." might be true, 
but probably has already been mentioned.

* Discussions will be held for about 2 weeks - unless the need of expanding is felt.
The first week will bring a temporary ratio that then will corrected during the second.

With this in mind, we shall start the discussion!

________________________________

Samus ​

KEY POINTS

Advantages


Disadvantages


Summary


IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION
Strategy & Match-Up Mentality

Aerial Game:
Ground Game:
Approach:
Defense:
Camping Game:
Edge Game:
Surviving:
Killing:
Frame Data:

Stages
Stage Striking
* Possible Fox Strikes
* Possible Samus Strikes
* To Be Classified:

Final Destination,Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
[COLOR="Yellow"]Castle Siege, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly a starter, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Banning
* Possible Fox Bans
* Possible Samus Bans
* To Be Classified:

Final Destination,Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Stage Counterpicks
* Possible Fox Counterpicks
* Possible Samus Counterpicks
* To Be Classified:

Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), 
Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd, Lylat Cruise, Pokémon Stadium 1, Brinstar, 
Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Pictochat, Pirate Ship, Pokémon Stadium 2, 
Rainbow Cruise, [COLOR="Yellow"]Yoshi's Island (Pipes), Green Greens, Port Town Aero Dive, 
Distant Planet, Luigi's Mansion, Norfair[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Yellow"]Yellow indicates a stage that is not commonly legal, but possible. 
Neither player should depend on these[/COLOR]

Possible Secondaries


Videos & Other Outside Resources

VERDICT ??:??


MATCH-UP DISCUSSION GO!​

 

[KillerJawz]

When a Samus goes up against Fox, she will definatly bait you into using your reflector, plenty of zair spam will follow, along with a flury of missles and Charge Shot. Just attempt to get through the spam, don't sit there and reflect, because 4-7% a Zair will quickly add up on a lightweight such as yourself.

You really need to get into Samus's close area, her melee combat is quite laughable, and you should quickly wrack up the damage on us, just be very wary of UpB OoS, it's difficult to SDI out of, and will hit ALL of your attacks on shield (excluding lazers obv). Samus will attempt to get away by retreating with zair, using spaced ftilts/jab cancels and applying pressure to shield.

Samus is a queen at shield pressure, equipped with FF'ed uairs, UpB, zair, missles and charge shot, your shield will be screaming. Attempt to powershield zair and approach, keep the pressure on CONSTANTLY.

Samus gimps Fox far easier then you gimp us. Your recovery, whilst better then Falco's, still follows the same rules, and is still bait for our bombs/dair/nair/uair/fair/missle/zair/insert any other method here, gimps. Once we get you off stage, it's OUR playing field, we can avoid all of your attempts to gimp us with bomb spacing. You can still do the job though, but it's risky, I honestly reccomened you just stay on stage, or attempt to get back as quickly as possibly.

Samus will attempt to kill Fox with Dtilt and Fsmash. Charge shot is far to risky, if you see it coming, REFLECT IT. It eats spotdodges and rolls, so don't attempt to dodge it, just reflect it or power shield it. Dtilt and Fsmash are punishable on shield, be sure to punish us for it.

Overall, this matchup is even IMO. Nobodies advantage, nobodies disadvantage, I'll add some more if you need it.

 

[Conviction]

What even?

Hold I'll be back with a response in a second.

EDIT: Ok first off we don't even need to reflect your missles because they are easy to powershield. Fox outcamps Samus. We can laser and instantly PS or Shine any of your projectiles forcing your approach. We shut down your projectile game which really is a strong point of Samus.

Samus is light and can be killed around 100% (maybe earlier but this has to assume with good DI and such) with a well placed Usmash, Bair, or Dsmash. We might be a lightweight but Samus still has troubles killing and Fox can live to at least 140% which is bad news for Samus. You don't have any garunteed kill set-ups. We have Nair>Usmash, Dair>Usmash/Dsmash, JJC>Shine>Usmash,etc.

We would never be approaching this MU allowing us to take adv. of your ground game, we can get in and give at least 30% to you. I agreee to be aware of your OoS Up B but it does not punish Bairs, and AC Fairs, or Pivot Wave Grabs. We can pressure your shield easy. Your shield option might be good but we have Shine>Nair which works especially well on Samus do to her limited shield options and how she slide when hit in shield.

First off Fox's recovery does not follow Falco's we have the best recovery out of the three spacies and we will don't fall under the same easy gimped like Falco or Wolf (not saying we can't get gimped by certain characters.) Samus does not have any moves that send offstage in downwards angles besides Dair, but we won't get sent offstage with that move. So when recovering high Samus does not have any options to gimp us. At stage level (or below but won't be the case) it is possible to get gimped. I have to disagree and say gimping is even here. Nair smacks Samus out of her Up B and drillshine kills most vertical recoveries.

Samus will not be pressure our shield because will not be turtling it because Samus is approaching the only real problem with Samus is her Zair. Its presence keeps Samus from having an umwinnable MU.

65-35 or 70-30 Fox's favor Samus does not have much going for her.

 

[KillerJawz]

What even?

Hold I'll be back with a response in a second.

EDIT: Ok first off we don't even need to reflect your missles because they are easy to powershield. Fox outcamps Samus. We can laser and instantly PS or Shine any of your projectiles forcing your approach. We shut down your projectile game which really is a strong point of Samus.

Double Missles want some words with you. No you can not powershield them easily, thats one of the most difficult tasks ever. Name the Samus you played, that is an absolutly outrageous statement to make.

Samus is light

I stopped reading there. Shes the 7th heaviest in the game, im no longer interested in this thread. Goodbye.

 

[Conviction]

7th heaviest.....where's that link at?

Even if those are hard to PS we still have a reflector....


Aww your leaving and we were just getting this started...T.T

 

[KillerJawz]

7th heaviest.....where's that link at?

Somewhere in the tactical boards. Look for it.

Even if those are hard to PS we still have a reflector....

Zair, and since you just said "if those are hard to PS" that means.... Have you even played a Samus before?

Aww your leaving and we were just getting this started...T.T

Because you clearly have no idea about this matchup and have clearly never played a decent Samus in your life.

 

[Conviction]

Nah I've never played a samus that's done that.

You could at least argue the other points it's not like I'm closed minded or something >.>

 

[KillerJawz]

You are very close minded. After digging up some resources, it turns out you've had similar disagreements concerning other match ups, this comes as no surprise to me.

Retract your claims on the MU, play the MU, then rewrite it. Then I'll consider argueing against your other points, with albeit, were extremely poor.

 

[Conviction]

>.> I'm not close minded.

I would like to hear from other people besides us of course. I would like to hear what you have to say and have a healthy discussion if my points get shut down oh well.

I'll retract when I see what you say.

EDIT: I see we have observers XD

 

[KillerJawz]

You are.... VERY close minded, how on earth can you theorycraft a matchup and.... THINK ITS IN YOUR FAVOR. Oh and I know for a fact no other fox has played a decent Samus, because I know every Samus's track record. I am the only Samus who can actually contribute to this matchup.

Im not saying anything until you retract the claims, we could have multiple posts like this.

Observors are always fun :3

 

[Conviction]

Augh >.< ok I'll retract because i wanna hear what you have to say..

EDIT: Omg this is the most active I've seen the Fox boards. 9 members at once.

I don't remember being like that since '08 when Dair>Utilt was broken.

 

[Noobicidal]

Samus is heavy as ****, so the thought of her dying at 100% is laughable.

You don't have any garunteed kill set-ups. We have Nair>Usmash, Dair>Usmash/Dsmash, JJC>Shine>Usmash,etc.

FF uair to dtilt, FF uair to up tilted fsmash, FF uair to jab canceled down smash, dash attack to jab canceled ff dair spike (assuming you're near the ledge, of course).

I'd go on, but I have no interest in doing so.

First off Fox's recovery does not follow Falco's we have the best recovery out of the three spacies and we will don't fall under the same easy gimped like Falco or Wolf

No matter how much you polish a turd, it still stinks. Dair kills at 40%, and Guthix forbid if the Samus knows anything about tether regrabs.

 

[Conviction]

Rising Fair, Shinestalling. Two things the other turds can't do....

 

[KillerJawz]

We didn't say anything about fair or shine stalling.

 

[Noobicidal]

Rising Fair, Shinestalling. Two things the other turds can't do....

That's great and all, but I never denied the fact that Fox had the best recovery out of the fur bunch.

 

[Conviction]

Falco has feathers XD

Then what's the turd comment for? Confusing.

 

[KillerJawz]

Falco has feathers XD

Then what's the turd comment for? Confusing.

It's for the recovery thing lol. Your recovery is still predictable, Noobicidal meant you can't make it seem good, even if you polish it up. It's better then Falco's and Wolf's, but it's still diabolical.

 

[Conviction]

Oh ok, it's predictable but it's not like Ness predictable.
If you force us to use Firefox you better gimp us. Lol start-up lag.

 

[KillerJawz]

Oh ok, it's predictable but it's not like Ness predictable.
If you force us to use Firefox you better gimp us. Lol start-up lag.

Yeah that I do understand, but we can also gimp your side B. Nair. Granted, not as easily, but it's still possible.

You know what, I will give you my FULL write up for this matchup, but please, don't try and say stuff like this being in your favour :/, that just irritates me.

Hugs?

 

[Noobicidal]

Fox's, dare I say "mediocre", recovery still can't compete against one of the more effective examples of a character with a rather impressive anti-ledge and anti-air game. If you have to resort to Firefox (while a great browser nonetheless), we have our preference of simply going for dair, or zair stall it.

 

[Conviction]

Yes hugs I don't like hostile feelings (even if it the internet) unless it's something serious.

Wait before you do the big thing mind explaining how Samus would gimp a Fox recovering high?

 

[KillerJawz]

At no point should you be able to recover high. Samus kills horizontally with Fsmash, and when a smart Samus hits you with dtilt, you will be killed from it. If for some reason, you managed to recover high, it's a matter of prediction, but your still pretty much guaranteed to take SOME damage, your not very likely to be gimped, granted, but it's not easy to get back when your off stage.

 

[Noobicidal]

Wait before you do the big thing mind explaining how Samus would gimp a Fox recovering high?

Ledge-jump double jump dair/bair or zair'ing when you're approaching the stage (which leads to whatever gimps from there) are two examples of such.

 

[Conviction]

Noobical I meant like snake recovering high.

Jawz answered my question though.

 

[C.R.Z]

this match up could possibly be 50 -50, how ever i think fox's lazers push it to 55-45

i played killerjaws, his samus is awsome, so im asuming the majority of what hes saying is correct
soz iblis lol

 

[Conviction]

>.< I'm in a corner by myself I see.....I defiantly retract then....

 

[Conviction]

So which one is it 55-45 or 50-50?

I'll put the verdict up and put the adv. and disadv. from Jawz write-up when he does it.

I have nothing to say (unless they are questions) until we hit the stage discussion part.

EDIT: Opps double post

 

[C.R.Z]

>.< I'm in a corner by myself I see.....I defiantly retract then....

no lol its just i have hands on exp of what this match up is like and its not as easy as you would first think.she can kill fox, shes not that easy to kill and zair is a pain in the ***.its one of the best spacing /aggressive tools in the game.

 

[Conviction]

Ahh ok. I understand.

LIGHT LET IT BE KNOWN THAT JAWZ IS MY NEW HUSBAND. NO ONE NEEDS YOU ANYMORE!

 

[Noobicidal]

LIGHT LET IT BE KNOWN THAT JAWZ IS MY NEW HUSBAND. NO ONE NEEDS YOU ANYMORE!

Back off before anything unpleasant happens.

 

[KillerJawz]

50-50, please let me finish my writeup

Also Cloud <3333333.

DESU <3333333

Spoiler

IBLIS <33333

EDIT: Aerial Game: Samus will beat you guys here, our quickest aerial comes out on frame 5 (Uair) which is one of our best aerials, having some insane priority (it beats MK's nado). We can quickly wrack up damage in the air, but once you get below us, we're in trouble, dair comes out on frame 9, and you can easily punish us there with some uair juggling, since Samus is so floatly we get juggled pretty badly. It's a close call in the air, ours is just slightly more practical. Your nair comes out on frame 4, it interupts some of our aerial combos, but we are below below you, so uair can still juggle very wellWinner = Samus

Ground Game: You absolutly demolish us. Your whole ground game is better then ours. Your jab is quicker then ours and has more hitstun, if you hit us whilst we are out of our shield, you can really lay on the damage. Your utilt comes out faster then any aerial we have, so its superb for juggling us, keep putting the pressure on with your tilts, just don't let up otherwise, Samus's massively ranged tilts (frame 7 ftilt aswell as yours) will take some major chunks of your % out. Winner = Fox

Approach: This is our favour. We can approach with zair, and have no fear of getting hurt since our hurtbox doesnt change when this move is used. It's safe on your shield and to be honest, we don't have to approach if we don't want to. Winner = Samus

Defense: We win again. Our UpB OoS demolishes your approach options and outranges alot of your moves. We can retreat to the ledge if we are in trouble and still wrack up damage with ledge hopped fairs, zairs and missles. Winner = Samus

Camping Game: This is very interesting. Samus and Fox go really close to even in this one. Zair gives us the edge, and you'll be stuck in your shield longer then us. Lazers are a pain, but our damage builds quicker on you guys, however, your lazers come out MUCH faster. Tie

Edge Game: Samus is the queen of the ledge. She can retether, gimp, stall and kill off AND on the ledge, this is what stops the matchup falling in your favour, we just have to much going for us here. Your shine is annoying when we bomb stall however, it can gimp us effectivly, so we have to be very careful. We can nair your side b approachs and dair your firefox, then retether if you survive the dair. Winner = Samus

Surviving: This is tough, but I say you guys win here. You guys are really quick and agile. You can poke in and out on us so it gets harder and harder to kill you. Dtilt is a good killer in this MU, but it's harder to land it on you tbh, and you guys can reflect Charge Shot. You can apply plenty of pressure to us and force a Usmash kill. Winner = Fox

Killing: Samus can't kill. Granted, we kill pretty early (for us) in this MU, but not as early as you guys, whilst we have more kill options, you have a better one overall, and it's actually difficult to predict, ours are easily predicted. Winner = Fox

Frame Data:

Samus' frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=185822

Fox's frame data: I'll let you guys fill this in.

I know however that in this area, fox is ALOT faster then Samus and has more answers to different situations then we do. Winner = Fox

5-5 = 50:50

Key:

Yellow = 2 Points
Green = 1 Point
Red = 1 Point for Samus
Orange = 2 Points for Samus


Always strike the following stages against a Samus:

Rainbow Cruise
Final Destination
Jungle Japes

Always go to the following stages against a Samus:



Samus will go to:

Jungle Japes
Rainbow Cruise
Final Destination
Battlefield

Samus will ban:

Yoshi's Island

 

[Xyro77]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

Here is the weight/falling speed list.

Samus is 7th heaviest and fox is 33rd heaviest. Even with equal DI, samus will out live you by a LONG shot. Fox being THAT light almost negates the fact that Samus cant kill well. Without arguing and going into hardcore detail i can assure you that fox wins vs samus 60-40. Ive played enough of SamBoner to accept this fact.



As for stages, do not let samus take you to BF or SV or RC or YI. In other words, close quater stages where you cant spam and use your speed to the maximum. TAKE samus to japes/fd/pkmn/pictochat. Any stage that allows u room to spam and run.

 

[KillerJawz]

So we have a 50-50 with me, and a 40-60 with Xyro, 55-45 with Cloud. I'd reckon you go with 55-45 your favour tbh.

 

[NO-IDea]

I don't have enough time to contribute much, so in short:

60-40 Fox's favor.

Samus's weight has little relevance. She has ****ty momentum canceling when hit vertically due to her floaty nature, so she still dies at a relatively early percent compared to other heavies.

Fox has to approach. You can't outcamp Samus in this MU. Unfortunately, speed and a great way to approach Samus (d-air) mitigate this. Mix up the d-air follow-ups and you won't get punished by Samus's up+b that often. Use your fast-fall and shine-stall to manuever out of our aerial combos and you should be fine.

Long as you don't do anything ridiculously risky, Samus can't land a kill move. F-smash is probably our best move aside from gimping, which is easily shield punishable from your moveset. Watch out for Samus gimmicks (falling u-air, d-air combos, charge shot baits; this requires experience in the MU) and this MU gets much easier.

My experience comes from NKB (MD) and Yes! (NJ). They didn't take Fox to his full potential, but that's probably because they didn't have enough experience in the MU.

 

[Conviction]

What do people think 60-40 or 50-50?

2 for 60-40

2 for 55-45

1 for 50-50

 

[Zhamy]

Just curious, can Samus shieldgrab Fox on a shielded Dair? If not, what other options does she have to punish?

 

[Toronto Joe]

55-45 foxy

 

[KillerJawz]

Just curious, can Samus shieldgrab Fox on a shielded Dair? If not, what other options does she have to punish?

Upb OoS.

Yeah 55-45 seems right tbh.

 

[Rizk18]

55-45, i average what iblis said. 2 60-40, 2 55-45, 1 50-50, it came out to 60-40 fox favor, 55-45 seems a teeny bit more accurate

 

[KillerJawz]

Please don't necro threads like this, the discussion is complete, Iblis just hasn't updated the title.