Match-Up Export #1.5: Meta Knight Ratio Discussion

[Red Arremer]

Please continue the discussion about the matchup ratio Meta Knight vs. Fox in here.

 

[Steven Jackson Action Jackson]

60:40 :X

Fox is all over the place, he's pretty hard to catch. But his fast fall speed is lol. I usually just push for a dashgrab at the edge, pummel till he falls, spam D-tilt untill he jumps into it, having him fall down with his ridiculous fall and then D-air his recovery. That doesn't always work though <_<. So usually I just stick with spamming rising D-airs above his head. Too bad Fox can't do this

 

[Curaga]

Based on what we've discussed up to this point in the Fox match up discussion, my view on this match-up is 60-40 MK's favor..

We are at a disadvantage, but not countered by MK. We still have tools and options available to us to fight back and do well. Our personal advancements and ingenious recovers also go to assist us in survivability, while the advancements of the player and the hard work of this community have assisted us in our offense.

The match requires quick/focused thinking, and the ability to shield/dodge/(and tech) like a champion.

I think if the Fox community can continue perform well against MKs in future tournaments and overcome our obstacles, we could have this match up move closer to 55:45 in the future.

Is this the proper way of using this thread?

 

[Lord Chair]

60:40 :X

I just play MetaGay like with every character which causes to match-up to be an instant 60-40 MK's favor.

Fixed.

10mks

 

[Steven Jackson Action Jackson]

No, 60:40 is a logical number. Yes, i play MK because he is the best and I am a terrible person and I love just beating my opponent without mercy. He was made for me. It was an unnecassery personal attack really. Get out if your reply contains nothing but a 10char. Your post was unamusing.

 

[Curaga]

Play MK if you want to play MK.

You want to destroy people, you pick MK.
I want to to destroy people, I pick Fox.

You know, whatever.

Don't feed flames btw. Onishiba is going to go bonkers if this is derailed. XD

 

[Steven Jackson Action Jackson]

I don't take kindly to trolls and don't hesitate to report them
I'm wondering, does Fox's D-air break trough MK's SL or does it trade hits?

 

[Curaga]

I'm wondering, does Fox's D-air break trough MK's SL or does it trade hits?

That info can be found right next door at Match Up Export #1.0
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=244972

 

[Lord Chair]

The underlying message in the previous post was not a personal attack, rather an attack on your reasoning.

'I just do this and that which has a 100% chance of happening and than my opponent will most certainly do this and that which guarantees me a 0-death which causes the match-up to be in MK's favor.'

Fox can prevent getting owned by edge release -> dtilt or hell anything else. Yes it puts him in a bad position no it's not a guaranteed kill.

Refer from assuming certain situations of happening and instead ask yourself whether or not the projected situation is logical, reasonable or even possible.

All due respect dear sir, just pointing out your errors.

 

[Steel]

See this is what I don't get

You guys keep talking about "our personal advancements lately in the Fox board" and because of this you simply can't accept a similar ratio to the previous one.

What has changed? This isn't a very deep game, most characters' metagames were finished in the first few months bar a trick or two. Fox as a character is still limited in what he can do to MK. He has no reliable way inside his sword and can't apply pressure as easily as MK can. He has limited control game while MK can easily take and maintain it.

How is this any more than 65:35?

 

[etecoon]

How is this any more than 65:35?

he can run away. forever. he's also equivalent to falco outside of stunning lasers apparently, and falco is dead even with meta knight.</things that I've "learned" from this board recently>

 

[Palpi]

Metamind games apparently belong in MU-discussion / ratios steel. lol

 

[Steel]

Yeah, uh. This thread is going to end up looking exactly how the other thread did.

 

[Zhamy]

Maybe, but at least it's separated now.

You can feel free to argue with who you wish here, but for the most part, everyone's opinions are set.

 

[Exceladon City]

I think if you mind your spacing really well and pick your stage correctly it's about 60:40. Fox v MK at FD, CS, PKMN Stadium 1 and Pirate Ship (if it's not banned) it's 60:40. Everywhere else not named RC and Mansion it's 65:35 and at RC it's like 80:20 and Mansion it's like 70:30.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Yeah, I'm not sure about the idea of having two threads... since to form a matchup ratio, you need ideas posted in the other thread...

I guess this will separate the "lol no way this is anywhere close to even" posts from the actual discussion, but still...

I don't mind either way, but I'll primarily be posting in the other thread...

I personally say 55-45 for MK. I could understand 6-4, but that is what Marth has, and I personally feel that MK is an easier match..

 

[Melomaniacal]

So is this the thread where I'm aloud to say that there's no way in hell the MU is 55:45?

 

[Sosuke]

As long as you do so without flaming and stuff, yeah.

 

[Melomaniacal]

As long as you do so without flaming and stuff, yeah.

Okay then.

The match up is not 45:55.

...I just realized how much of a shallow discussion this is.

CRAP! I JUST REALIZED I RUINED MY 1337 POST COUNT.

 

[Exceladon City]

Fenrir, Marth doesn't have an UpB that kills you if you're at 43% and like 10 feet above him. Marth is hard as hell but MK is much more of a pain. 60:40 on a good day.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Fenrir, Marth doesn't have an UpB that kills you if you're at 43% and like 10 feet above him. Marth is hard as hell but MK is much more of a pain. 60:40 on a good day.

um... neither does MK???

marth has better kill moves against Fox (MK's dsmash is good, but the rest don't kill until crazy late, assuming no gimps), Dancing Blade, which eats through a lot of options, and is a punish-all, and a pretty good CG for the first part of the stock...

His shield is also much better than MK's, which is huge in the matchup... and he has grab followups, which MK lacks... so yeah, I find that he's harder, in general.

 

[Palpi]

MK doesn't have grab follow ups? Depending on your DI metaknight always has an option from 0-60% (atleast) to follow up d-throw. Also grab release on edge can often result in death. If fox jump and fairs he eats dtilts and gets gimped, if he doesn't he gets down air'd. Once again. If the fox player uses his firefox and gets back to the stage, the metaknight made a huge mistake.

Marth's main flaw is a lack of a reliable nonpunishable kill moves. F-smash kills but power-shielded or normal shielded it is easily punished. Tippered bair is one of marth's best kill moves, but once again the time and place to use it and actually get the tipper is a bit hard. Tippered nair is a great kill move...if it tippers. Metaknight dsmash is just as (LOL) or more reliable than these kills moves.

MK can kill fox just as well or better than Marth. I am sure Steel can 2nd me on that. (maybe not what i said above lol ) OMG GET IT STEEL?

Melo receives my seal of approval. 55-45 is indeed a false match-up ratio.

 

[Fenrir VII]

MK doesn't have grab follow ups? Depending on your DI metaknight always has an option from 0-60% (atleast) to follow up d-throw. Also grab release on edge can often result in death. If fox jump and fairs he eats dtilts and gets gimped, if he doesn't he gets down air'd. Once again. If the fox player uses his firefox and gets back to the stage, the metaknight made a huge mistake.

Jump away with rising fair is out of range of dtilts... >.> and high firefox is safe... low firefox, I agree with you.

DI away, and MK never has an unavoidable followup on Dthrow... so no...

Marth's main flaw is a lack of a reliable nonpunishable kill moves. F-smash kills but power-shielded or normal shielded it is easily punished. Tippered bair is one of marth's best kill moves, but once again the time and place to use it and actually get the tipper is a bit hard. Tippered nair is a great kill move...if it tippers. Metaknight dsmash is just as (LOL) or more reliable than these kills moves.

This difference is that Marth has several reliable kill moves. MK has one, basically, that kills as low as it does.
Marth's DSmash (out of shield or otherwise) is a great punishing tool, and kills quite early (esp against Fox). Dolphin Slash overrides some approaching tactics and combos... and kills pretty early. Bair is situational. Nair is situational. Fsmash is REALLY situational... but they are all options Marth has.
MK has Dsmash... to kill around 120%... Fsmash, I'm not entirely sure, but it's pretty easily avoidable. Shuttle loop OoS doesn't kill nearly as early as marth's UpB... not til around or above 150%. Nair is about the same %.

Marth simply has more attacks that are capable of killing at lower %s than most of MK's moves. MK's dsmash is good, but if it his only option, it is quite avoidable. Therefore, I count Marth as the better killer, at least against Fox.

 

[Exceladon City]

Go get reverse shuttle looped to death and then come see me. Also Marth typically needs a tipper to kill you early. MK on the other hand just has to get you to 100% and smack you with a Dsmash and if it doesn't kill you, there is always his failproof edgeguarding. Nair *****, Fair ***** just as hard and Dair is a lost stock and Illusioning to the ledge doesn't always work when Dsmash is super disjointed and if MK stands at the edge when your highest point of recovery is just an inch over his head you're dead.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Guys, this thread is going way off topic.

Talking about match ups... in a match up ratio discussion thread? Come on, guys.

 

[Sosuke]

It just comes down to opinion and whoever's you believe makes sense.

 

[IAPG87]

55-45 in final destination, dash cancel up smash rules

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

oops, wrong thread... why is this here. We should have one thread about this stuff so all the info is in one place and people don't accidentally post in the wrong one like I just did...

 

[AvaricePanda]

High FireFox isn't safe, it may be safer or more of a surprise as it isn't much used, but against MK that's perfect range to get shuttle looped. You may not get gimped per se, but you'll take damage.

MKs kill options are generally safer. D-smash and such doesn't kill as fast as a tipper, but they're safer and much easier to space. D-smash comes out quickly, F-smash is safe on shield at good range, OoS shuttle loop or aerial shuttle loops kill and are safer than Dancing Blade, etc.

I'm going to quote EL's post because I think it's the most well said out of the two threads in the entire debate.

What you need to remember people is that a match-up is all about how the tools of both character's interact.

Brawl is very much a poke based game that is all about committing as little as possible while trying be safe and still control your opponent.

Speed by itself really isn't enough. If it was CF would be winning tournies left and right as well as Sonic.

If you look at all the good character's in Brawl they all have great pokes and/or the ability to limit their opponents really well using their moves while not putting themselves at risk.

Before I go on let's clarify something.

Punish = You blocked a move and then hit someone during recovery frames.

That is what it means to punish.

You cannot punish a poke from Marth , namely fair and d-tilt and the same goes for MK.

Now let's continue.

Oh and also, reading the opponent = fighting the player and not the character. That's not how you get ratios. Ratios = character vs character. I hope I have cleared that up.

Now when we look at Fox as a character what do we see? We see what looks like some solid base attributes. He has great speed and some solid killing ability. His laser lets him do damage while staying mobile. He also has high comboability that lead into great damage. Shine is good for stalling and messing with an opponent's timing and side b can be used to get out of sticky situations.

But Fox is lacking in terms of his movelist. Although his moves are fast they are lacking in range and overall safety. And he can't really control his opponents that well because of this. So now he must either rely on hit and run tactics while building damage with laser and running away with side b or play a high risk high reward game and attempt to go for combos, although all of Fox's combo starters are unsafe.

Now let's look at MK. As a character there is no comparison. MK is far superior. With the fastest and safest pokes in the game he can easily control his opponents and limit their options. He attacks as fast as a character without a weapon but he has great range as well tanks to his sword. His tilts are as fast as foxes coming out at 3 frames and 4 frames. His aerials are far superior as well.

Movelist wise MK is on a whole nother level.

So let's look at the match itself. What are MK's options? The safest thing to do is just slowly advance while attempting to zone and control space with pokes and aerials. MK can do some random stuff too like Nados and dash grabs but zoning is more then enough.

How does Fox respond and what are his options to take control? Well, he really can't control MK in anyway or limit his options. He's fast sure but that's not enough and tourney results have proven it. Speed isn't enough without the moveset to back it up. Fox is lacking here. He can try to run, but he will run out of stage eventually and put him self in a bad situation. He can also die b past MK but this is risky and could lead to Fox taking damage or even losing a stock. It's not really worth it.

So the question becomes...what can Fox do as a character to beat MK as a character? Well...he really can't.

See that's what it means to have a bad match. When one player cannot fall back on his character's tools and must rely on reading and baiting to win a match.

Fox has some traits here and there that seem like they would be good vs MK. He can kill early since MK is light and U-smash is a good kill move. Dair can beat Nado when well timed and well spaced. Fox isn't super easy to gimp which will help him live longer.

But when you look at solid play overall. Just safe simple play Fox doesn't have the tools to deal with it. Does this mean Fox can't win? Hell no. Of course he can. But what it means is...that a Fox player can't walk into this match thinking his tools are all that viable.

They aren't and he/she needs to know that.

Bowyer had it right. You will have to read MK and try to punish his patterns. Meaning you need to OUTPLAY him completely.

Marth beats Fox for the same reason. I mention this because Boywr brought it up. He of course was incorrect in his assumption that Fox beats Marth. That's impossible. Fox lacks the tools.

Having a whole bunch of random ways to beat random things that MK's might do means little when you can't stop their actual gameplay. The stuff that makes MK strong or ANY character strong isn't their gimmicks. It's the stuff that makes or breaks any character in any game. Their fundamentals. Fox's fundamentals are too weak plain and simple.

I call this match as 65/35.

 

[Zhamy]

Why did you quote a post without adding to it?

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

Please stop posting in this thread and resume all talking where the main talking is being taken place...

 

[Red Arremer]

You don't understand this thread, apparently. It's for people who bicker about the ratio. The normal talk is in the actual thread.

 

[SnowballBob33]

65-35 seems a bit out there. That makes it seem like it's going to be an easy win, or just space 1 move and come out victorious. Fox is definetly not that helpless. Fox still can early, camp, punish mistimed/poorly spaced aerials with over 20%, utilt chain, avoid many gimps, not get wrecked by tornado or glide. 60-40

Oh and also, reading the opponent = fighting the player and not the character. That's not how you get ratios. Ratios = character vs character. I hope I have cleared that up.

What do you consider reading? Punishing a roll, spot dodging an attack, predicting an airdodge, powershielding a smash?

Edit: Yea, this discussion is to decide a number to call the matchup. The other one would be to talk about strategies like stages, bans, what to expect, how to punish moves, possible secondaries, etc

 

[AvaricePanda]

@Zhamy, because it was in a different thread (the one not for ratio discussion but for what you can do discussion) and I pretty much agreed on every point with it. It's something that I've been trying to say but he said with better wording and more conciseness.

@Onishiba/Spadefox: The two correlate so much together that it's hard to seperate it or know which discussion belongs where. For example, I just posted something about how D-air doesn't beat shuttle loop and B-air might not be perfectly safe on shield in the other thread as information about the match-up. I could have literally said the exact same thing here, but here it would be to further my point that the match-up isn't as close as people think, and there it would be to just provide information.

65-35 seems a bit out there. That makes it seem like it's going to be an easy win, or just space 1 move and come out victorious.

Match-up numbers are subjective regardless; what some people think is a 65-35 is what others think as a 60-40 or a 70-30.

Fox is definetly not that helpless. Fox still can early

I'm assuming you meant kill early, if so then yes.

, camp,

Having a projectile doesn't automatically mean he can camp. To camp, you'd be able to zone yourself from far away and keep yourself there. Fox can't do this, namely because his lasers don't stun and he doesn't have many viable retreating options or quick options that push the opponent back far. The opponent could approach and maybe get percent taken to them, but it doesn't mean you're camping. They can just pretend you aren't firing anything and approach normally.

Better wording would be, "pressure an approach," but even then, MK can ledgecamp or air-camp to some degree depending on the stage and approach slowly or not approach at all.

When you're the character in the match-up who can't keep the opponent away while camping, can't approach, and doesn't have many options if being approached, it isn't looking good.

punish mistimed/poorly spaced aerials with over 20%

Vague statement.

What aerials can you puinish, with what can you punish them, and how often are you in situations where you can easily punish them?

, utilt chain,

The fact that you can do two U-tilts in a row at low percents doesn't make this match-up notably better for you.

avoid many gimps,

Avoid most gimps. When recovering normally (as in you DId a kill move well) you most probably shouldn't get gimped. However, things like getting grab released at the edge is a very bad situation in which you likely will get gimped or at the very least, edgeguarded for some percent.

For the most part, I agree; it's possible to not get gimped, but it isn't unlikely that you will.

not get wrecked by tornado or glide.

Glide, true. Tornado, untrue. Again, MKs will space a tornado so that SDIing to your ideal point will take longer. If you DI, they can chase it with the horizontal and vertical DI they have to not let you get out. And if you do, they'll go to a horizontal direction before you can D-air. Very rarely will you get the chance to punish Tornado.

60-40

Fox can't stop MK from approaching, Fox can't reasonably deal with MKs approach, and Fox can't reasonably approach MK. I honestly don't see how this is 60-40. This is a pretty good disadvantage for Fox, winnable yes, but you have to really outplay your opponent. Character-wise, MK has more and better tools for each option.

What do you consider reading? Punishing a roll, spot dodging an attack, predicting an airdodge, powershielding a smash?

The middle two. Punishing a roll you can do on reaction, depending on the roll or if you react to it, same with power-shielding an attack. Things like thinking, "He has 3 approaches but he'll probably use this approach, so I'll counter it like this," shouldn't be considered in match-up analysis, as that's player vs. player and not what a character can specifically do.

There's a difference between having more viable, more reasonable, and just more options in a given situation than reading your opponent to choose the right option. The former should be considered, the latter mostly shouldn't.

Edit: Yea, this discussion is to decide a number to call the matchup. The other one would be to talk about strategies like stages, bans, what to expect, how to punish moves, possible secondaries, etc

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

omg, talk about this **** in the other thread.

 

[Sosuke]

Can't you guys just use the matchup thread for this? =/

 

[Red Arremer]

I repeat, this thread is merely for those people who are bickering about the ratio. The other thread is supposed to not only have ratio discussion going on y'know.

 

[Force Frontal by Chicken]

in order to talk about ratio discussion, you have to talk about the entire matchup, which is what the other thread is for.

 

[Sosuke]

Just use the other thread for both.

 

[Red Arremer]

Well, fine. I tried to keep the people clenching on discussing the ratio from the normal thread. I don't care if you close this one, I just wanted to give them room to discuss their stuff while the other thread would discuss the other stuff related.