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Match-Up Discussion: Wario

Moozle

Smash Champion
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I wish I was good at writing matchup analyzes, because this is the matchup that I have the most experience with. I play Hunger and Quik a lot. The biggest peace of advice that I have (that Hunger gave me) is to "spam pivot grab when I approach from the air." It works stupidly well, and makes killing actually easy if you get good at it. Other than that, space with bair and tilts and it's all good :)

I've mentioned this before, but Wario is a hard character to stage CP. I always try to stay away from smashville since a good Wario can pretty much always avoid an Usmash out of grab thanks to the platform, but Utilt will still work most of the time if not all of the time. I also try to stay away from RC and Brinstar, and Halberd in this matchup. Wario kills really early if you're not careful.
 

¿Qué?

Smash Champion
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Mar 30, 2010
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Grab release into Sweet spotted Usmash. Literally a dream match-up for Peach.

Wario is still quite powerful and his air dodge is the gayest in the game.

If you're gonna shield pressure, try to keep it above Wario's head. His Fsmash is sooo quick and spammable.
Go for grabs ONLY if you know you'll get it in for sure. Don't bother too much at high percents. That Fsmash will punish harshly.
 

Brawlin

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First of all, Peach has a better ground game than Wario. Wario is laggy on the ground and all of his ground move are pretty easy to punish. The two things u should watch out for in his ground arsenal is fsmash and his DACUS. Fsmash gets super armor so obviously you are better off just punishing it instead of trying to attack before it hits. Glide tossing can help against his DACUS. Peach's jab is pretty good against him on the ground as a panic move because of its speed. In the air though, Wario is an absolute beast. He has speed, range(bair and fair), power(uair), and priority. Peach's bair is fantastic against him in the air. Her dair has more range than his uair, but be careful because of the power on Wario's uair. You have to kinda treat Wario like Jiggs in the air, in respect that you should use fair sparingly. Contrary to popular belief, Peach does not have too much trouble killing Wario. If Peach grabs him at 85 percent, pummels him twice, usmashes him out of the grab release, he is screwed. On a side note, watch out for his waft.
 

Brawlin

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Is it 55:45 peach advantage or 60:40 tho? I think more 60:40. The argument to why some people think 55:45 is because Peach can't kill him. She can tho if she get the grab at as low as 85 percent. He is really heavy but he is actually one of the easier characters for Peach to KO just because of the infinite.
 

Nicole

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i am SOOOOOOO tired of people saying "use bair matchup is done"

because THAT really helps.

this is one of my worst matchups...actually, it probably is my worst. and i would love to listen to advice on how to play the matchup. is there a way to do it that isn't gay?
 

Xyless

Smash Master
Joined
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Chicago/Ann Arbor
My picture is a joke, of course. Bair works, but only to shut down Wario's standard aerial game. Good Warios adapt to it.
 

Nicole

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i know it's a joke <3

but you have to admit, that is the mentality that alot of people take when they talk about this MU. use bair. grab realase usmash. why are you still losing? OMG.

it's irritating...
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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RicardoAvocado
I know this match up extremely well so I hopefully can add something helpful to this discussion
Here's my take

Choosing the stage
Accept that FD is going to be banned - there is absolutely no way a Wario in his right mind would take anyone, not just Peach, here. That leaves you with BF, SV, YI, PS1, Lylat Cruise, Castle Siege, Delfino and Halberd, depending on how many starters you have

IMO, get rid of Lylat Cruise. Awful terrain and too many platforms make it hard to get grabs on Wario. It hurts your camping more than it hurts his.

Castle Siege is a potential choice depending on whether you like the stage or not.
Yoshi's Island is another stage with potential due to the tilting platform. Understand that Wario's baiting options are limited, paticularly moreso when the platform is tilting on the side of the stage he's on because he can't commit to an aerial above the platform if he wants to punish you on the ground because he'll land on the platform rather than hit you with the aerial (of course he can pass through the platform and then hit you with an aerial but by that time you might be able to shield or roll away). The inability to ledge hop Fair on this stage does limit your ledge options though.
Pokemon Stadium 1 is a decent stage to choose as well, the transformations can however drag matches out longer than they need to which is not good vs Wario
Smashville is like a smaller FD which makes it a good stage. It gives you plenty of space to camp. The extremely intrusive platform messing up grab releases is an issue though so you may want to avoid this stage. Delfino has long periods of time which are flat and big which make it an ok stage, you can sort of shark under the main platform aswell. Transformations may mess up grab releases and some transformations make chasing difficult. Halberd is pretty decent, you can shark here as well, low ceiling makes Wario's Uair dangerous but the same goes for Peach's Up Smash. Stage hazards can interfere with grab releases but the landed part is nice and long and flat
Battlefield is by far the safest and most 'neutral' stage you can pick vs Wario. If in doubt, try and get this stage for the first game. Platforms stay where they are so you either get a grab release Up Smash or a Nair/Up Tilt if you grabbed him under a platform. The platform aren't too spread out either so if he tries to air camp you, he has less stage to work with

Fighting Wario
Whatever stage you get, you are going to have to camp as much as you can
The best way to do this is by using Bair and Fair intelligently. In a neutral situation i.e. no one is recovering/has just been hit, you want to use Bair to beat Wario in the air and Fair to tackle any ground approaches he might use as a mix up
Bair works well in the air but can work vs Wario on the ground if you space it well against his head. Bair camping as people call it works by you Floating at around SH height or slightly above and using Bair to hit Wario. Bair will beat out all of his aerials BUT (and this is really, really important) if you whiff the Bair, you leave yourself open for punishment via his Fair or Bair. So in order for Bair camping to actually do any damage, you can:

- Bait one of his aerials by hovering around his range and then punish it with your Bair (safest and most likely to succeed)

- Let go of your Float and Bair into him if he's nearby (not too safe unless he's definitly in hitting range)

- 2nd jump and Bair at the same time into him (works reasonably well due to Peach shifting her arse so much during Bair)

This is the most essential tactic to use vs Wario. If you want to be safe and avoid damage then Bair him when he uses an aerial

........
What if he doesn't use an aerial? What if he's waiting for you to Bair so that he can punish you instead?
This why the match up is so tedious - it all depends on who throws the first aerial if both sides are spacing really well. Peach's Bair camping and Wario's aerial mobility create a sort of stalemate. If you throw out an aerial though, the other side will get a hit in
I use method 1 of Bair camping as my primary form of defense and then mix it up between letting go of my Float and using 2nd jump Bairs

You can use Fairs to keep Wario at bay in the air or if he tries to grab you, just make sure you overspace them. Fair is too slow to work as an attack move because Wario can simply move in and hit you with an aerial before Fair even comes out. Best to use it as a punishing move to catch Wario out if he moves towards you. Overspace it - if it doesn't hit, nothing is lost. If Wario messes up and attempts to hit you and is caught by Fairs range you get damage and possibly a kill on him. You can also use Floating Fairs slightly below platforms to cover yourself from all angles if Wario is approaching

If whilst you're Bair camping, Wario tries to jump above you and Dair in Bairs blind spot, you can easily Uair him or if you're close to the ground, land and Up Tilt him

Nair is very much a situational aerial/combo breaker. You can mix up your Nairs and Bairs, you can Nair out of Warios Nairs if you DI up

Dash attacks works well vs spaced Fairs and Bairs, Jabs work up close, F Tilt works as a mix up for anti air, F Smash should be stutter stepped cause Wario can punish them fairly easily. Up Tilt works for when Wario's above you as does Uair...all these moves you should use when the situation is right. Turnip help with camping and gimping but don't rely on them too much

Killing Wario
A good Wario will not get grabbed often, if ever. Ironically, his grab range is much bigger than ours and he can easily grab you out of shielded Jabs unless they're spaced to perfection and that goes for all of Peach's moves
Anyway, Wario is going to avoid getting grabbed as much as he can and he's very good at it so don't go fishing for it. Wario can simply jump away if he sees a shield grab coming and can easily Dair you if you use pivot grabs. Pivot grabs are only good if Wario enjoys using lots of Fairs
Wario is going to live for a very long time. He's very good at surviving and has excellent DI. Bait airdodges and Uair/Nair him as he lands. If Wario uses his bike, learn the angle he jumps off at and be prepared to Nair (or if you're really good Fair) him during his lag. If he goes for the ledge, grab it and punish accordingly with a ledge hop Fair if he lands on the stage or a slow get up if he goes for the ledge. If Wario has a fart charged, he'll use that if things get desperate
If Wario does mess up and you get a grab, go for an Up Smash only when he's above 90%, 100% if you want to be absolutely certain you'll kill him. Anything lower and he'll be able to DI and live. If he's below a platform, don't bother with an Up Smash, go for Up Tilt instead

Surviving
F Smash, F Tilt and Uair are Wario's main kill moves. Never land next to Wario, especially if he's walking away from you because chances are he's looking to F Tilt you or F Smash if you really screw up your spacing. If his F Smash misses, get a Floating Dair in or if you're close enough a Dash Grab. If you're in the air, be on your guard for a Uair. You can mostly poke through with a Dair if Wario is directly below you. Airdodge only if its your last ditch attempt to avoid Uair. Just be very careful and you should live for a very long time. Take your time when recovering to avoid getting F Smashed off the ledge or Uaired as you recover. Be cautious and smart

Timing Wario out
TIMING OUT IS A LEGITIMATE STRATEGY ESPECIALLY VS WARIO
Do it if you have to. Due to the stalemate of how camping works here and Peach's poor kill power, it's sometime inevitable. If you lose the lead, don't lose your cool aswell - just keep camping but approach very very slowly so you can get that damage in, get strings in where you can
If you have the lead, camp camp camp. Don't approach. You don't have to if you have the lead

Counterpicking
If you can, choose FD. This stage gives you a definite advantage over Wario due to lack of platforms and flat terrain. IMO, avoid Brinstar because its a good stage for Wario. I don't know much about stages TBH so go where you're comfortable if FD isn't your cup of tea


tl;dr Camp as much as you can, time him out if needs be, play safe and keep focused. This is one hell of an endurance match but Peach can do it. I would say she has a slight advantage over Wario depending on the stage

Sorry for the wall of text :p

is there a way to do it that isn't gay?
If you want to win vs a good Wario, then no :p Sorry xD
 

Xyless

Smash Master
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i am SOOOOOOO tired of people saying "use bair matchup is done"

because THAT really helps.

this is one of my worst matchups...actually, it probably is my worst. and i would love to listen to advice on how to play the matchup. is there a way to do it that isn't gay?
Nicole, I had to deal with that with Olimar back in 2008/2009. EVERYONE was trying to tell me that I wasn't dairing enough against the Olimar, even though I was telling them "HEY IT ISN'T AS EASY AS YOU THINK". That includes people who don't play Peach; they just assumed that no one could, you know, adapt to things that wreck them. I think I was the first besides Edrees to be vocal that the Peach/Oli MU was not as one-sided as people claimed.

Also this is for you Nicole.

(click picture for full size)
 

Nicole

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lol thank you xyless haha

rick you made a really nice writeup, thanks very much.
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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Oh yea, every now and then, Wario may run underneath as a way to counter Bairs and Fairs if he predicts them
By running in, he gets underneath you, forcing you to misspace your aerial and leaving you open for a shield grab
If he does this and you're Floating above him, its a free chance to pressure his shield with a Floating Dair. Use the Dair and cross over his shield as you do it and land behind him. Or you can readjust your spacing and hit his shield then. Don't make the mistake of carelessly slamming into him because you WILL get shield grabbed and then he'll rack up damage and send you flying with a throw which risks you being hit by a Uair or makes it even harder to regain the lead if time is running out
 

Xyless

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I honestly have no input on the matchup other than it's the most straining for me physically of them all. After the match, I really feel like I need a break to relax.
 

Moozle

Smash Champion
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I think the biggest factor in losing this matchup even when it may seem like an easy one is how early Wario can kill you. Maybe it's just a problem with my playstyle, but I have a horrible time predicting/dodging wafts, especially against good Wario players. Does anyone have any tips on dodging waft?

Also, tires are really good. If you get one, don't waste it; play smart!
 

Rickerdy-doo-da-day

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Oh crud I KNEW I'd forgotten something important!

You should survive above 130-150% if you're careful and avoid kill moves, maybe even higher with good DI/momentum cancelling
Wafts however can kill you as low as 60% depending on where you are when you get hit
Here's the thing - Wario Waft takes time to charge up. After 1 min 30 secs, thats when the knockback is REALLY strong. If you've noticed around 1 and a half minutes have passed, start to play very cautiously because if Wario lands a Waft, it can give him a stock advantage which gives him a massive advantage because he can then air camp/camp you as much as he likes and you have to approach and kill him AND THEN rack up the damage you took trying to catch him to regain the lead, all of which puts you at risk to losing and takes even more time and puts strain on the clock
This extremely dangerous Waft gets even more knockback up until 1 min 50 secs have passed. After around that time, the Waft will hit the 2 minute marker and Wario will start to flash a light brown. This Waft will do a LOT more damage, around 40% but the knockback is extremely low in comparison to the 1 and a half minute Waft
Avoid letting him hit you with the 1 and a half minute Waft at all costs because it will kill you at stupidly low percents. Camp him and avoid getting near him because the Waft comes out extremely quickly. If he's chasing you and trying to simply get near you, RUN AWAY OR SHIELD OR ROLL because if he's touching you, his Waft will connect and you'll get sent flying. This is where you might want to swap to spacing Fairs rather than Bairs due to Fairs disjoint

Thats another stupid thing about this match up - matches take so long that Wario gets to charge up his Wafts

Once Wario starts to flash, still be aware he may try and land the Waft but you don't have to be so worried about it because of the lower knockback, It can kill you but the knockback is pretty low. The most dangerous part is the high damage because that can take the lead off you and means you have to approach
 

Rizul

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Aug 2, 2008
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64
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the Netherlands
About the waft, straight from this thread > http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210128

Down-B:
First Attack Frame:
Charge Level Zero (about 0:00 – 0:17): Trips on Frame 16 (no damage)
Charge Level One (about 0:17 – 0:57): Frame 10
Charge Level Two (about 0:57 – 1:50): Frame 5
Charge Level Three (Full Charge): Frame 9 (Super Armor Frames 5-10)
Knockback:
Charge Time…..Mario KO% (at the center of FD with no DI)
0:56…..………..187 (Useless)
0:58…..………..98
1:00…..………..95
1:05…..………..92
1:10…..………..85
1:15…..………..81
1:20…..………..76
1:25…..………..72
1:30…..………..67
1:35…..………..62
1:40…..………..60
1:45…..………..55
1:50…..………..52
Full…..………...96
Full Charge: from startup of any Waft to Full Charge = 6697 frames (1:51.729 seconds)

Nice writing Rick. I gues I said I start using at around 1.30 min and now you see why :).
 

Moozle

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Mar 1, 2009
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Ooh thanks a lot for the chart. Good warios will vary when they use their wafts so that they aren't predictable, but it's very nice to know when they are most likely to use their farts.
 

Lord Chair

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Homo MU. Homo Peach. Homo timeouts.

Be homo when you have a lead, Wario sucks at approaching you.

Don't airdodge, just loldair and hope he doesn't get the uair timing down. If he even tries to string, just homo nair 'çause you mess up any followup he attempts to do.

EXAMPLE: If he tries to nair > grab you at low percents, just lol@him and nair.

Whenever he does something on you shield and tries to play funny, just nair. Just nair.

Be homo and turnip camp.

@the random guy who said Wario has a lot of range in the air: that's false. Just uair and SORTA bair, and bair is crap in this MU. Don't ever say fair has a lot of range because it doesn't.

Just spam safe stuff in this MU until it hits, while Wario frantically tries to do the same thing, only with a much worse risk-reward ratio. Not giving a ratio 'cause I'm biased, MU is just mad homo to the extent of me not even caring about my usually oh-so-formal English anymore. Get@me.
 

Eddie G

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Homo MU. Homo Peach. Homo timeouts.

Be homo when you have a lead, Wario sucks at approaching you.

Don't airdodge, just loldair and hope he doesn't get the uair timing down. If he even tries to string, just homo nair 'çause you mess up any followup he attempts to do.

EXAMPLE: If he tries to nair > grab you at low percents, just lol@him and nair.

Whenever he does something on you shield and tries to play funny, just nair. Just nair.

Be homo and turnip camp.

@the random guy who said Wario has a lot of range in the air: that's false. Just uair and SORTA bair, and bair is crap in this MU. Don't ever say fair has a lot of range because it doesn't.

Just spam safe stuff in this MU until it hits, while Wario frantically tries to do the same thing, only with a much worse risk-reward ratio. Not giving a ratio 'cause I'm biased, MU is just mad homo to the extent of me not even caring about my usually oh-so-formal English anymore. Get@me.
The most accurate summary on this matchup. That's pretty much all there is to it.
 

Queen B. Kyon

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Dec 5, 2007
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55:45 peach

Simple Peach does very well in this mu however wario punishes her mess ups hardcore. His grab game and range are stupid good. As good as bair is in this mu it doesn't win the match. If predicted how you move wario can get in and rack fast damage . He has quite a few kill moves that are good and fast and he just like mk can kill us when we up b with the waft thing. We also have the grab release upsmash that kills usually around 105. Pivot grab it's very useful in this mu. We even have a split second to charge it. To not waste your upsmash kill power you can uptilt and it Aldo works under many platforms that upsmash can't reach in time. Must buffer. One stage I try to stay away from is smashville due to the platform moving. The wario can at least make it so that they wait for it to come to avoid getting hit. Turnips are a good idea in this mu usually up throw or the glide toss one. Try to not just spam them every where. He can catch one and try to use it with an uair combo. When Wario uses the bike and throws it up stay way from the bike cause you will take alot of in needed damage and it bounces . At high percent I leave the bike alone cause it limit his recovery choices. Usually they will break it to use the wheel for a free uair hit. Beware of this. You can also use the wheel down throw glide toss thing if it hits the wario while he is around you, you can buffer into an fsmash. The bike is also Peach bomb able.if wario spot dodges and you know he may again short hop dair is good and do not try to punish his nair or challenge it.
 

Shift

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Homo MU. Homo Peach. Homo timeouts.

Be homo when you have a lead, Wario sucks at approaching you.

Don't airdodge, just loldair and hope he doesn't get the uair timing down. If he even tries to string, just homo nair 'çause you mess up any followup he attempts to do.

EXAMPLE: If he tries to nair > grab you at low percents, just lol@him and nair.

Whenever he does something on you shield and tries to play funny, just nair. Just nair.

Be homo and turnip camp.

@the random guy who said Wario has a lot of range in the air: that's false. Just uair and SORTA bair, and bair is crap in this MU. Don't ever say fair has a lot of range because it doesn't.

Just spam safe stuff in this MU until it hits, while Wario frantically tries to do the same thing, only with a much worse risk-reward ratio. Not giving a ratio 'cause I'm biased, MU is just mad homo to the extent of me not even caring about my usually oh-so-formal English anymore. Get@me.
:( LC, why did you help them?
 
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