Umby
Smash Master
I can't say I've played a wide variety of above average Jigglypuffs, but it looks like ftilt/utilt both do great at shutting down its aerial approach.
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Match-Up Discussion #30! Jiggs
- Thread starter Steel
- Start date
∫unk
Smash Master
imo lil has said the most accurate stuff so far. listen to him.
∫unk
Smash Master
actually gw spacing isn't necessarily worse and a good gw will ***** the b-air for this matchup (which has a superior disjointed hitbox).
it's the fact that marth can shield the first hits of the turtle then up b to punish which completely takes the option out of the matchup which makes it favorable to marth. if a marth doesn't know that gw has the advantage.
edit: double post kthx
Teh Future
Smash Master
Guys I almost beat Thinkaman's Jiggs with marth and I never use marth. And he's about twice as good as me.
This matchup is horribly in marth's favor.
And lol at people saying rollout. Marth's down B is actually very useful in this match for countering rollout and blocking edgegaurding.
This matchup is horribly in marth's favor.
And lol at people saying rollout. Marth's down B is actually very useful in this match for countering rollout and blocking edgegaurding.
k i'm actually going to respond to this.
Why do you think Jiggs can get in so easily? You think you can just bair or fair him without any retaliation. I'm unsure if you've even seen a good Marth who knows how to camp these lesser characters.
You can't just "juggle the Marth with bairs" either. Marth is weak from BELOW but he can just throw his sword out there to send Jiggs back out.
Justblaze647
Smash Lord
lol...I make a pretty good living whomping jiggs!
illinialex24
Smash Hero
You do get some retaliation. I've played good Marth's. And the entire battle is getting in on Marth. But you can do it... And if you space as well as the Marth, its not that hard even if it isn't easy.
I don't want to come across as hostile but what is your definition of a good Marth? You said the Marth in your videos was good, personally I thought he was terrible.
And the fact is Jiggs CAN'T space as well as Marth because she has no disjointed hitboxes and a complete lack of range. A good Marth makes it one hell of a problem getting inside his sword, especially a character like Jiggs, and once you are inside you won't be for too long.
∫unk
Smash Master
But Steel... you haven't played a good jiggs so can you really say anything either?
That's the problem with these matchup discussions it's just theorycrafting. Some of it is true but also some of it (usually the debated points) aren't accurate at all.
That's the problem with these matchup discussions it's just theorycrafting. Some of it is true but also some of it (usually the debated points) aren't accurate at all.
Erm
Yes i have.
And I'm discussing match ups with basic facts, but while some of it is theory how can you not discuss match ups like that?
Yes i have.
And I'm discussing match ups with basic facts, but while some of it is theory how can you not discuss match ups like that?
Doomblaze
Smash Journeyman
Good jigglypuffs are going to weave in and out of your shield using Fair and Bair along with pound to start combos, they are Very rarely going to use rest against marth because of the difficultly of hitting with it, and the moderately high chance of losing a stock
I personally like to jump into jiggs pound and counter it, because it has a slight starting lag and as such it is possible to predict and punish accordingly.
Try to stay on the ground because your ground game is significantly better, and your u-tilt has a nice range if they try to go above you for the Dair-->rest combo.
If you get off a shield breaker, two things happen, and either way, jigglypuff is pretty much screwed
1. you break the shield and she dies
2. You get the shield down to that little speck of color, at which point the jiggs is too scared to use their shield for the next 10 seconds
Go on the offensive Hard these 10 seconds, spam dancing blade since the jiggs is probably going to be dodging instead of shielding, and us marth know how to punish spot dodging =D
I havent played any good jigglypuffs either, so my whole post is just theorycraft as well...
I would give this a 7:3 at best, or at the worst a 6:4 because most marths are going to be unused to facing jigglypuff and as such are somewhat prone to being gimped by jigglypuff, although jiggs range is nothing compared to marth.
I personally like to jump into jiggs pound and counter it, because it has a slight starting lag and as such it is possible to predict and punish accordingly.
Try to stay on the ground because your ground game is significantly better, and your u-tilt has a nice range if they try to go above you for the Dair-->rest combo.
If you get off a shield breaker, two things happen, and either way, jigglypuff is pretty much screwed
1. you break the shield and she dies
2. You get the shield down to that little speck of color, at which point the jiggs is too scared to use their shield for the next 10 seconds
Go on the offensive Hard these 10 seconds, spam dancing blade since the jiggs is probably going to be dodging instead of shielding, and us marth know how to punish spot dodging =D
I havent played any good jigglypuffs either, so my whole post is just theorycraft as well...
I would give this a 7:3 at best, or at the worst a 6:4 because most marths are going to be unused to facing jigglypuff and as such are somewhat prone to being gimped by jigglypuff, although jiggs range is nothing compared to marth.
You can't give it a 6:4 because of match up experience >_> We are presuming that we have two top level players of equal skill and match up experience.
Tyser
Smash Champion
How often are you going to see a Jiggz sit there and shield long enough to get shield broken though? We're in the air for 99% of the fight. But yes, like I said earlier 99:1 Marth.
∫unk
Smash Master
Names plz on aim
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Aside from Pound, which can shield stab easily if Jiggs is patient and has good aim, especially with it's tricky hitbox, and DACUS, Jiggs has 0 answers to Marth. 70-30 Marth
Crazy Cloud
Smash Journeyman
I don't get the arguement of "breaking her shield". Yeah, Marth is great at doing it, but a good Jiggly is going to be in the air 80%+ of the time in a match. And because of Marth's ability to break shields, she's sure as hell not going to land near him when possbile (not counting the fact that her ground game is virtually worseless in most matches, let alone this one).
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
I would agree that the shield break property doesn't really hold any weight in this match-up. As it stands now, if we break ANYONE'S Shield, it would probably result in a stock. Basically, Sakurai was like "Well, Jiggs is so light, we know your fully charged smash will be a K.O. anyway, so we're going to just speed this game up."
However, due to Jigglypuff's mechanics, it's HARDER to land SB, so the Shield Breaking thing has virtually no relevance in this match-up discussion.
However, due to Jigglypuff's mechanics, it's HARDER to land SB, so the Shield Breaking thing has virtually no relevance in this match-up discussion.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
I think when people mentioned it they were more just throwing it out as a joke since it's fun(you can't deny) to see that animation. Most people realize you're not going to break a shield on jiggs in a good match -.-
The most effect it actually has is that jiggs will always have the concern of not shielding too much in the back of her head so it might minorly effect the match-up on a psychological level. But that's not what we're here to discuss anyways. This is about facts =b
DarkRunner00
Smash Journeyman
Nothing to say... i messed up shoulda read after page 2
Wizard Of Seraphym
Smash Cadet
something interesting i found out is if you space jigg's rollout correctly, you can spot dodge/roll the first hit and counter the second, often flinging her right off the stage. If you see it coming, this is pretty useful.
70:30 sounds reasonable, also since Marth's range lets him cut right through the wall of pain.
70:30 sounds reasonable, also since Marth's range lets him cut right through the wall of pain.
∫unk
Smash Master
just up b the roll out works every time
if you don't get gimped this is almost impossible to win for jiggz
if you eat a roll out or be dumb and DI into the **** then it's a little more even
if you don't get gimped this is almost impossible to win for jiggz
if you eat a roll out or be dumb and DI into the **** then it's a little more even
Wizard Of Seraphym
Smash Cadet
yeah but counter is more secksy than upB.
But yeah, not too hard as long as you stay out of range and don't play stupid (is being hypocrite)
But yeah, not too hard as long as you stay out of range and don't play stupid (is being hypocrite)
Jigglymaster
Smash Hero
You guys would be surprised how much priority Jiggs's pound has. Not to mention your sheild will break if hit by pound twice.
feardragon64
Smash Champion
I did not know that. o_o Thanks for the heads up.
But still...it comes out rather slowly....
TKD+ITA+Mar=
Smash Ace
I think Jiggly may be one of the few characters where you can use nair, which could also be a good finisher.
If she chooses to use a grounded approach dtilt can be pretty good.
In general, I prefer to be a campy Marth in this match-up.
Also, could dancing blade out speed her aerial mobility? I am not quite sure.
If she chooses to use a grounded approach dtilt can be pretty good.
In general, I prefer to be a campy Marth in this match-up.
Also, could dancing blade out speed her aerial mobility? I am not quite sure.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
How did this get bumped?
Seriously, the greatest pro for Jigglypuff in this matchup is either:
Pound
or the ability to rest Marth through dancing blade (not yet confirmed).
The latter for a game winner is PIMP as hell.
But I think this is 35-65, mainly because her bair is really good and so is pound, but the rest just ***** her. Its not impossible but its pretty **** hard to beat a good Marth.
Seriously, the greatest pro for Jigglypuff in this matchup is either:
Pound
or the ability to rest Marth through dancing blade (not yet confirmed).
The latter for a game winner is PIMP as hell.
But I think this is 35-65, mainly because her bair is really good and so is pound, but the rest just ***** her. Its not impossible but its pretty **** hard to beat a good Marth.
-Red-
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Nov 16, 2008
- Messages
- 46
Yeah pound is pretty cash but its all you have really... i mean if I find out you can rest through my dancing blade, guess what I won't do anymore?
If a top level Marth played a top level Jiggly 10 times, I'd be willing to bet Marth takes it 9/10 or more likely 10/10.
30/70 is generous as hell, why even argue that?
so i was looking at this match a little more in depth and i dont think straight aggro can work vs her
why?
all she has to do is air dodge to get into your zoning
id say play this match as if you were playing vs a wario, see me and takes posts in the wario thread to see what im talking about
its still 70 30 tho lolz
why?
all she has to do is air dodge to get into your zoning
id say play this match as if you were playing vs a wario, see me and takes posts in the wario thread to see what im talking about
its still 70 30 tho lolz
Hyper-Marth
Smash Cadet
xD.... how ironic, i had to fight a lot of good Wario and Jigglypuff players at the FBT6 tourny in Wisconson and had no clue what i was doing X_X... But there's always next time now that i know =D
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
you have a sword swing your swing you win Marth owns 70-30 jiggs has nothing on marth out space her and your good.
KRiMz0N
Smash Journeyman
60:40
jiggs has good edgeguarding game
and a sour counter will get you rested in the...core
but all you really have to do is utilt the **** out of jiggs, and there's not much they can do to get inside you
jiggs has good edgeguarding game
and a sour counter will get you rested in the...core
but all you really have to do is utilt the **** out of jiggs, and there's not much they can do to get inside you
BBoyindo
Smash Ace
I don't agree with anything of that.
Jiggs does have a good edgeguarding game, but if you recover low, he can't do anything or he'll get stagespiked. A bad counter WILL, get you rested, but don't counter wrong then. Also, a sour rest will result in a free shieldbreaker, so that is even.
And i don't really see how you can up-tilt him to death. He can airdodge right through it and grab you, he can even stay a little bit outside your zoning, and punish a whiffed up-tilt o any other attack. Like Steel said he is a lot like wario.
70:30 Marth
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Ok, 1st of all......
Depends on how far from the stage you are recovering. If you are going low right under the stage, she can only trade hits with dair to B-up, which is a very unfavorable exchange for her. She gets stage spiked a lot here. If Marth has the edge she is fairly good with spaced bairs at keeping him off, but you can't ever do it realistically for more than 2 hits with bairs, most of the time Marth will get off the ledge almost unscathed or unscathed. However, nair, bair, fair, F-smash, and boost smash are all fairly good at racking up damage.
And yeah if you use counter wrong at close range your gonna get rested if in kill percentage. If not, F-smashed. That has surprisingly good knockback.
And I don't miss any crucial rests because I don't use it unless it will hit. It works pretty well because the risk reward is much less there than melee.
The thing is bair and pound are good, but not amazing in this matchup. But the real kicker is grabs. Jigglypuff has great grabs and you should watch out. And you have to be careful as Jigglypuff not to get spiked. Although nair, if your slightly away from the stage, can really help Jigglypuff if it trades hits with B-up.
I'm not going to throw a number right now. It isn't even.
KRiMz0N
Smash Journeyman
jiggs is a slow faller, i'm sure even an ffing jigglypuff would not be able to pull off a grab. one air dodge will not last you through the range of the utilt to the ground, either. if he air dodges, the best he can do is nair bair or fair
what i'm saying is utilt is probably the best kill move for this matchup, and itll ko jiggs at like 20% less than anyone else
folk!
Smash Apprentice
i would hate catchin a rest during dancing blade
in this matchup il say what i normally say after i use jiggs "poor jiggs"
KRiMz0N
Smash Journeyman
also, with zero DI our uthrow will kill jiggs at ~150% on FD.
i don't know why DI is relevant, but whatever
i don't know why DI is relevant, but whatever
BBoyindo
Smash Ace
If you DI to the right or left, you won't die as fast since your trajectory is longer. Also there is momentum canceling.
KRiMz0N
Smash Journeyman
yes, but jiggs is screwed anyway at such a percent
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Depends. Marth has two good kill moves on Jigglypuff if he can land them: U-tilt, which *****, and tipper F-smash. Both kill her very early. If not, with stale moves, she can live up to 150% and although she might die very soon, she can live surprisingly long because of her floatiness and DI, both of which make it harder to get hit and allow her to live longer except on god forsaken star KO's.