Match-Up Discussion #10! Peach

[Emblem Lord]

Dark.Pch - Are you insane?

Dude...why was that Peach constantly rushing Marth and not using glide toss?

Why did the Marth attempt F-smashes AFTER PEACH AIRDODGED AND SHE WAS CLEARLY SHIELDING?

Do you remember when you played me?

Did I do dumb sh*t like that?

Hell no.

Also the way they are playing is outdated. Marth isn't abusing Dancing Blade or up b out of shield to punish and Peach isn't using Glide tossing.

That vid is too outdated and too bad to be taken seriously.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Man screw it I'll show the vids of me Vs Marths.

This is basiclly to answer Gheb's questions.

Vs Dail:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYXFjfGD3nU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnU1vF0JCW8

Vs Xzax:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvEy1hzSF94

Vs Rookie 718:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMevlAy28OQ

Vs ShadowKid:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Oggz6-iQAo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr5BP63gpf8

Vs MintyFlesh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3aV8JQ67G4

Vs D1:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpdQrlaQtTs

Vs ????????????

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXlclRH2pT4

 

[Emblem Lord]

I can tell even before watching that none of those is worth looking at except for D1.

And I will ask you this straight up Dark.Pch.

What Marth's have you faced that were stronger then me?

Keep in mind I consider myself an average player.

 

[Dark.Pch]

I can tell even before watching that none of those is worth looking at except for D1.

And I will ask you this straight up Dark.Pch.

What Marth's have you faced that were stronger then me?

Keep in mind I consider myself an average player.

That first sentence, I knew you was gonna say that. read the reason once again......why I showed the videos...........

I say the best Marth I played around here was D1

 

[Emblem Lord]

Those vids are too outdated.

The metagame for both Marth and Peach has evolved since those vids were recorded.

You aren't really proving anything by posting them.

Also D1 got screwed over by stage glitch. I don't even know why you would post that.

 

[Steel]

Drk those vids are old as hell sir.. The only notable player was D1 and even then he did some stupid ****.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Omg, dude......I know you are smart..Look at the reason i posted the vids.

And Do you want me to get D1 in here and talk about the many Peach vs Marth matches we had? Cause if you think I am bais cause I main Peach, I'll just get D1. D1 is a honorable dude and won't BS anything.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The main thing is that the vids are outdated.

D1's Marth has most likely improved since then of course which invalidates the vids you posted even more.

 

[darkspatan117]

drk pch you know what metagame evolve vey fast people constently find tech for there char so they always improve with those good discoveries

 

[Dark.Pch]

The main thing is that the vids are outdated.

D1's Marth has most likely improved since then of course which invalidates the vids you posted even more.

The main thing was to answer a simple question by Gheb. The main thing was to answer a simple question by Gheb. The main thing was to answer a simple question by Gheb. The main thing was to answer a simple question by Gheb. The main thing was to answer a simple question by Gheb. The main thing was to answer a simple question by Gheb. The main thing was to answer a simple question by Gheb.

Gheb says :" How can Peach get Marth into higher % in the first place? I think, that's were she (and many other chars) loose against him."

"How can Peach get Marth into higher % in the first place? I think, that's were she (and many other chars) loose against him."

Screw the vdieos about it being 2 months old and shizz. and 2 months is not even all that to get at honestly. I did not post the videos to show me beating marths and to show off. Not the point here. Please for the love of god, someone tell me they understand this now, my head is hurting.

 

[Zankoku]

darkspatan, shut up.

If you can offset the weakness of low killing power with ability to rack up damage, Sheik would be rated A for Amazing. As it is, she isn't.

The majority of Peach's KO attacks are really only applicable when used responsively rather than offensively.

EDIT:
Gheb says :" How can Peach get Marth into higher % in the first place? I think, that's were she (and many other chars) loose against him."

If you post outdated videos, then you are showing vids of how a Peach may deal damage to a Marth who is not properly using his options. It's akin to showing a video as proof that Marth can't KO because he never uses anything except Side+B - you're giving an isolated, obsolete, and thus irrelevant example.

 

[Emblem Lord]

But, those vids show how to get damage on Marth in an outdated metagame which is what makes them invalid.

Going by the current metagame Peach clearly has a harder time damaging Marth which is part of why it's Marth's advantage.

Understand?

 

[Dark.Pch]

But, those vids show how to get damage on Marth in an outdated metagame which is what makes them invalid.

Going by the current metagame Peach clearly has a harder time damaging Marth which is part of why it's Marth's advantage.

Understand?

I dont see how 2 months is such a big deal. I can't change the method that much on how to get damage on Marth with Peach.

But if you wan't here. Recent. And the best Peach on the WC.

http://www.getyourtournament.com/multimedia/2008/08/shuffle-and-cut-edreesespieces-vs-jamez.html

 

[Steel]

All that marth did was forward b in the air.. which is the worst approach EVER and he got punished for it almost every time.

 

[Dark.Pch]

There is just no please you boys And. You do not get the point......again. *takes some advil*

How about you play me on wifi, maybe that will get the point through. Oh ....I might get a wifi excuse with I win though since marth has the advantage. Well, then I am out of options here.

 

[Chaos F-15]

This is a definitely an easy match-up for Marth. 70-30 Marth's advantage.

 

[Zankoku]

Well, to be fair, that's not ALL he did, but I don't think any of Peach's attacks landed pre-emptively. Looks like all of them were approach reversal punishments, or at least a lot of them were.

 

[Dark.Pch]

This is a definitely an easy match-up for Marth. 70-30 Marth's advantage.

Say the Marth user. Where is your calms. Info, back up details. You gonna come in saying that and expect people to buy that. I can already assume and sure that you play srubby Peach players who roll, dsmash and turnip > Fair.

If you play a top Peach, you think twice before saying it is easy. If you wanna talk about the match up you gotta give points on it. Not some character main bias. I am here trying to share like on this and help out steel as he asked. It is better to know it also from the other side and what we can do to you then going "Peach sucks,, and we play Marth, this is like taking candy from a baby, I don't even see myself having a hard time beating Peach at all."

Hmm.......Emblem lord. You was right about the Marth area.......sadly .____.

 

[Zankoku]

A +1.5 for Marth doesn't seem too unreasonable to me. Marth seems only punishable when he makes a mistake in approach, and Peach seems only able to land a finishing blow as punishment for Marth making a mistake during approach. This leads to Marth lasting a LONG time against Peach by playing excessively defensively once he's at a higher % (or so the video vs Edrees seemed to indicate... he was at over 100%, but he got Edrees to 85% before eating something strong).

 

[Steel]

There is just no please you boys And. You do not get the point......again. *takes some advil*

How about you play me on wifi, maybe that will get the point through. Oh ....I might get a wifi excuse with I win though since marth has the advantage. Well, then I am out of options here.

Ill play you, though ill probably lose being you're a much more experienced player. i've only faced one peach, so id like the match up experience.

 

[Dark.Pch]

The thing is, Peach is a defensive character. And Marth is not the character you wanna rush. Also as your friend Mikey lenetia said, which I agree with so much. While Peach is the defensive type, she is also a mindgame character. If you don't have good mindgames with Peach. You will struggle like hell. Peach needs that the most. being fancy with the Dair combos and tilts just wont get you very far. Pretty much that average Peach game.

With a defensive character like Peach, you also have to learn how to bait you enimes moves, spacing, and punishing Marths mistakes to do well here.

Like Olimar vs Peach. We Peaches got that 60-40. But that don't mean they can't win. It its a smart olimar, they will give us trouble and the fight wont be easy. even if we have the advantage. The olimar understands the match up. and despite we have the advantage, he can make it harder than it should be to win or even beat Peach

Lots don't get it at all. They think just playing a good character means you never have to worry about most characters below them. and it would always be easy. If people keep thinking like that, they will never improve.

 

[Chaos F-15]

Say the Marth user. Where is your calms. Info, back up details. You gonna come in saying that and expect people to buy that. I can already assume and sure that you play srubby Peach players who roll, dsmash and turnip > Fair.

If you play a top Peach, you think twice before saying it is easy. If you wanna talk about the match up you gotta give points on it. Not some character main bias. I am here trying to share like on this and help out steel as he asked. It is better to know it also from the other side and what we can do to you then going "Peach sucks,, and we play Marth, this is like taking candy from a baby, I don't even see myself having a hard time beating Peach at all."

Hmm.......Emblem lord. You was right about the Marth area.......sadly .____.

Your not thinking right. I said 70-30, not 80-20. Meaning that Peach could beat Marth IF she plays her cards right. But that's the same for Marth.
In Brawl, it's easy to catch flying items (ex.turnips) by pressing the A button. Marth's spike gives a near 95% of killing Peach due that Peach has a poor vertical recovery despite of having a great horizontal recovery (one of the best). Also, Peach's finishers are kinda slow, giving Marth a small but good opening to avoid or Counter it. Marth can also kill Peach off the top with Up-air (when tipped, which is easy than most of his attack) at kinda low percentages. Peach's down-smash is not as good as in Melee.

That's Marth's advantages. I can add more but I'm half asleep, I'll add more tomorrow.

 

[darkspatan117]

I agree with drk pch peach require lot of mindgames to be succesful and is a good char with good tournaments results according to ankoku character ranking thread

 

[Dr Peepee]

The thing is, Peach is a defensive character. And Marth is not the character you wanna rush. Also as your friend Mikey lenetia said, which I agree with so much. While Peach is the defensive type, she is also a mindgame character. If you don't have good mindgames with Peach. You will struggle like hell. Peach needs that the most. being fancy with the Dair combos and tilts just wont get you very far. Pretty much that average Peach game.

With a defensive character like Peach, you also have to learn how to bait you enimes moves, spacing, and punishing Marths mistakes to do well here.

Like Olimar vs Peach. We Peaches got that 60-40. But that don't mean they can't win. It its a smart olimar, they will give us trouble and the fight wont be easy. even if we have the advantage. The olimar understands the match up. and despite we have the advantage, he can make it harder than it should be to win or even beat Peach

Lots don't get it at all. They think just playing a good character means you never have to worry about most characters below them. and it would always be easy. If people keep thinking like that, they will never improve.

Alright, I guess I'll take a stab at this.

The fact that you said that Peach is a very defensive character doesn't really hold water here, as Marth is better than Peach on both offense and defense. What mindgames are you talking about that EL hasn't already covered? Stuff like turnip pillaring or just plain and simple things like varying the timing on aerials and empty SHs to grabs? Either way, at the highest level of play Marth should be able to adapt to these tricks with little difficulty, so the "mindgames" you speak of won't get Peach much closer to victory. It's all about the character statistics and frame data that has to be manipulated by both players to the very best of their abilities. This would be the case at high level play, but now I'm going in circles so I'll move on lol.

If Marth adapts to these "mindgames" that Peach is throwing out, then we go right back to the data once again. Baiting and spacing are things that Marth can still take advantage of Peach for since he outranges her plus her Fair(farthest-reaching move) has plenty of start-up time, so using that to space isn't viable.

65/35 or 60/40, both of these matchups are winnable for the "35" or "40" charcter, but it will just be more difficult for that character. No one's saying that it would be impossible for that to happen though.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Alright, I guess I'll take a stab at this.

The fact that you said that Peach is a very defensive character doesn't really hold water here, as Marth is better than Peach on both offense and defense. What mindgames are you talking about that EL hasn't already covered? Stuff like turnip pillaring or just plain and simple things like varying the timing on aerials and empty SHs to grabs? Either way, at the highest level of play Marth should be able to adapt to these tricks with little difficulty, so the "mindgames" you speak of won't get Peach much closer to victory. It's all about the character statistics and frame data that has to be manipulated by both players to the very best of their abilities. This would be the case at high level play, but now I'm going in circles so I'll move on lol.

If Marth adapts to these "mindgames" that Peach is throwing out, then we go right back to the data once again. Baiting and spacing are things that Marth can still take advantage of Peach for since he outranges her plus her Fair(farthest-reaching move) has plenty of start-up time, so using that to space isn't viable.

65/35 or 60/40, both of these matchups are winnable for the "35" or "40" charcter, but it will just be more difficult for that character. No one's saying that it would be impossible for that to happen though.

You are another one that needs to read more. I am explaining what Peach needs to do or in general to play well. And I have said many times before that this match is 60-40 Marth

 

[darkspatan117]

Why should it be 60/40

 

[Dark.Pch]

Why should it be 60/40

me and Emblem lord already explained why Emblem lord thinks its 65-35 Marth. While I say 60-40 Marth. But me and him are on the same page. I already went through me whole detailed advice on this. Read the thread. Thats what this thread is for, if you are not gonna read to learn then don't bother asking questions when the answers are in front of you.

 

[3xSwords]

So are we going to have to argue for that extra 5%, or have we come to a common agreement Drk. Peach? 65-35 Marth?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You are another one that needs to read more. I am explaining what Peach needs to do or in general to play well. And I have said many times before that this match is 60-40 Marth

Lol why am I arguing basic strategy anyways? I'm not too bright in the early morning apparently...my bad Dark Peach.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

*steps over the dead bodies and bloody mess*

I agree that the match up is 60-40 in Marths favour. Peach has to play defensivly and make clever use of Turnips/Toad. I always approach Marth facing the other way because Peach's Bair outprioritizes Marths Fair.

...I'm not entirely sure what else say that hasn't already been said. So yea :embarrass

 

[3xSwords]

.....Peach's bair outprioritize Marth's fair??????

Nah. I don't think so.

Also I'm saying matchup is 65-35 Marth like EL said and explained. And it seems that Dark Peach has come to that understanding. And if I misunderstood your previous post then sorry, and continue the debate.

And seriously Dark Peach as a leader on the Peach boards you really should teach them a thing or two about proper posting and reading the entire thread. (Although I can't say that entirely without looking at the Marth boards either.....)

 

[Dark.Pch]

Ha ha ha @ me being the leader of the Peach boards.

Bair is the best Move Peach cas to compete with his Fair. It does not outprioritize his fair. But Done right you can at least trade hits of get Marth after his does one bair and not let a second one come out. I use that move alot on Marth and its one of the best ways to get inside Marth with Peach.

And I say It is 60-40 Marth. EL gives it 5 +/- To Marth and Peach but thats not really that big of a deal. we are on the same terms on this match up reguardless and agree with each other here..

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Really? I could have sworn that I'd read somewhere that Bair outprioritzes Marths Fair...Ah ha! Here we are

Glide tossing turnips into Marth's face gives you free slaps or grabs depending on spacing, and Dair combos well but don't try hard to land it. Bair outprioritizes his fairs and if you see them coming Fair outreaches it too. You have to play differently- RAR and Bair a lot for example.

I've found Peach's Bair beating Marth's Fair but whether or not that's because I used Bair first is a different matter.

 

[Dark.Pch]

It's all about timing. To beat his Fair, you be more successful with Peach's Bair since it is fast

Remember you have to hit Marth to get the damage, not his sword. Unlike with Marth that Bair is your body. His sword is not.

 

[3xSwords]

....

And how do I know its valid?

I could quote a ******* and apparently it will be truth.

Here according to this guy this is how you get a kill

Do a FPA and a TFU after that you move the C-stick diagonly north east and then do a GBJHASD then you WILL get a kill"

Yeah lol no. Even Dark Peach said it won't outprioritize so yeah, and Dark Peach you were the only one that posted anything intelligent out of all the Peach players here so.......

 

[Deleted member]

i agree with darkpch for the most part. marth vs peach is not the hideous **** match that we remember from melee. this match can definitely go either way, dependent mostly on the peach player.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Here is how it works

Peach's Bair Vs Marth's Fair

If done at the same time:

You would mostly likely trade hits or have the attacks clash so nothing happens and you both just drop from your attacks. This all depends on the angles from the attacks as well for the results to lead to a trade or a clash. Also the angle of where Peach and Marth are can even decide who gets away with an attack unharmed.

Peach Bair first:

That move has range and not one, but 2 hit boxes. To the the second hitbox out. Prach has to float to a bair. Once the attack hits, she has to give up her float and drop, thus the will make the second hitbox come out. So I can hit my enemy 2 times with it. Same goes with Peach's Nair. Ever wonted why her bair air is so good and even breaks through most attacks or stabs shields even? That's why. But if you don't float, the second hit one come out. But it still has good priority and range. And also quick. thats why its a good move to compete with Marths Fair.

Marths Fair First:

If I am correct does his Fair Not start upward then comes down? If so the attack starts from above going down. While Peach's bair stars from the center. So If he Fairs then a Bair comes to him. The hits can trade or clash. But if spaced, Marth would beat Peachs Bair air. His frames already started while Peach's frames just begun. And his Fair does not aim directly straight.

I need Marths frame data to make this more accurate. But that the basic idea on this.

 

[3xSwords]

So basically Peaches bair never outprioritizes Marth's fair, and it's just a matter of where the hitboxes start from? So basically the two players trade hits because Peach's hitbox for her bair leans in and hits Marth's hands as he brings down his sword for the fair. So if a Marth takes into account Peach's *** when doing his fair, he will go unharmed and the Peach player won't, correct?

So again its all about spacing. And about the two hitboxes on Peach's bair, is the second hitbox a landing hitbox? Like the one Kirby or Boswer have on their dair?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Yea thats Pretty much it. I have beating Marths Fair with my bair for reasons I posted above. It is indeed all about spacing. And the angle/ positions that the players are also counts as well. The angle/ position is what I use to go even with his Fair or even beat it. But Marts Fair is safer on his point cause he has a weapon, and I dont. I cant attack his sword for damage, thats why agngles and positions when deal the attacks matter.

And yes it is a landing hit box. But I have to be floating. If I am not floating, the second hitbox wont come out at all. It does like this.

FC (Float cancel) >Bair. (thats the first hit box)

Soon as the first one hits

Drop> second hit box activates.

This is the same with her N-air

 

[White-Peach]

It is not a landing hitbox simply because she doesnt need to land to get that extra hit. Both her NAir and BAir have strong hits during the initial frames of the attack, and the later frames have soft hits. The 2nd hit is somewhat of a glitch that requires the use of a float.

She needs to be high enough off the ground that she doesnt autocancel after the first hit:
Float>BAir/NAir initial hit>Drop Float>BAir/NAir second hit

For some reason the float allows the latter frames of the BAir/NAir to be registered as a different attack.