Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[Big O]

Hydro Pump isn't going to gimp DK's recovery, but it can make him recover above the stage, at which point Greninja gets a free punish on him with pretty much whatever he wants while he's in free fall. I'd say that's a pretty big thing that can really screw DK over. It allows Greninja to dominate DK pretty well if he can keep getting him offstage and then pumping him up so he can repeat the process.

I'd say Greninja has an advantage over DK just because of hellish he can make DKs life when he's gets the advantage since it can be really hard to escape the frog, especially when Greninja can easily use DK's recovery against him.

DK's Up B is immune to Hydro Pump, so all it really does is stall him in the air if he didn't use Up B yet. The only time Hydro Pump does something useful is when you catch DK after he actually goes into free fall, which only happens if he uses it from too high.

While DK's disadvantaged state is very exploitable, he also has enough survivability to endure and the power to turn the tables at any time. DK's air game is better than Greninja's and his ability to edgeguard is also better, especially since Hydro Pump only protects you from the opposite direction of where you move.

 

[FullMoon]

DK's Up B is immune to Hydro Pump, so all it really does is stall him in the air if he didn't use Up B yet. The only time Hydro Pump does something useful is when you catch DK after he actually goes into free fall, which only happens if he uses it from too high.

While DK's disadvantaged state is very exploitable, he also has enough survivability to endure and the power to turn the tables at any time. DK's air game is better than Greninja's and his ability to edgeguard is also better, especially since Hydro Pump only protects you from the opposite direction of where you move.

Huh. I thought for sure Hydro Pump worked on DK's Up B and I swear I've seen it work before.

And why do people keep forgetting Shadow Sneak exists? Greninja is not easy to edgeguard, at all. He can very easily recover high with Hydro Pump and be far enough from DK so he cannot be punished, and Shadow Sneak is a teleport which we all know are great recoveries to have and it covers a great distance. The only way DK is going to edgeguard Greninja is if he recovers low but even then he can mix up his recovery to avoid a stage spike. Try to edgeguard Greninja at your own peril.

Greninja's recovery is among the best and safest in the game so no, DK does not edgeguard him better than Greninja does the inverse. Greninja can keep DK away with b-airs and force an airdodge that could end up placing DK too low to recover, or he could get hit by the b-air and be sent to the blast zone depending on damage. Shadow Sneak off-stage is not to be underestimated either.

Greninja can combo DK really easily, can get out of disadvantage pretty well with Hydro Pump, is very hard to edgeguard and is faster with a good projectile. DK has survibility and power, but Greninja's shuriken force him to approach and play the frog's game, plus Greninja can punish DK's mistakes pretty well with his great dash grab. DK can turn the tables pretty quickly, I won't deny that, but I don't think he's going to have an easy time getting out of disadvantage against Greninja at all thanks to how mobile he is and how much he can combo him.

Greninja is not necessarily going to struggle to get kills either, Substitute kills ridiculously early and DK has enough laggy attacks for him to take advantage of. Sweetspot Up-Smash also has great KO power and b-air can very much spell doom for DK offstage. He can end DK's stock very quickly if the DK player isn't careful so his survivability is not as pronounced as it is with other speedster characters like Sheik and Pikachu who have more trouble killing.

I still think the MU is in Greninja's favor because he tends to have the upper hand most of the battle. I can't really say if DK's airgame is really better than Greninja's though I'm having my doubts about it, but overall I think Greninja is just really good at keeping DK at bay while forcing him to approach and play his game, what advantages DK has I don't think compensate for just how much Greninja has going for him.

That's what I think anyway, I'm hardly an expert on the subject of MUs but I don't think DK is going to have an easy time dealing with Greninja.

 

[Big O]

Huh. I thought for sure Hydro Pump worked on DK's Up B and I swear I've seen it work before.

And why do people keep forgetting Shadow Sneak exists? Greninja is not easy to edgeguard, at all. He can very easily recover high with Hydro Pump and be far enough from DK so he cannot be punished, and Shadow Sneak is a teleport which we all know are great recoveries to have and it covers a great distance. The only way DK is going to edgeguard Greninja is if he recovers low but even then he can mix up his recovery to avoid a stage spike. Try to edgeguard Greninja at your own peril.

Greninja's recovery is among the best and safest in the game so no, DK does not edgeguard him better than Greninja does the inverse. Greninja can keep DK away with b-airs and force an airdodge that could end up placing DK too low to recover, or he could get hit by the b-air and be sent to the blast zone depending on damage. Shadow Sneak off-stage is not to be underestimated either.

Greninja can combo DK really easily, can get out of disadvantage pretty well with Hydro Pump, is very hard to edgeguard and is faster with a good projectile. DK has survibility and power, but Greninja's shuriken force him to approach and play the frog's game, plus Greninja can punish DK's mistakes pretty well with his great dash grab. DK can turn the tables pretty quickly, I won't deny that, but I don't think he's going to have an easy time getting out of disadvantage against Greninja at all thanks to how mobile he is and how much he can combo him.

Greninja is not necessarily going to struggle to get kills either, Substitute kills ridiculously early and DK has enough laggy attacks for him to take advantage of. Sweetspot Up-Smash also has great KO power and b-air can very much spell doom for DK offstage. He can end DK's stock very quickly if the DK player isn't careful so his survivability is not as pronounced as it is with other speedster characters like Sheik and Pikachu who have more trouble killing.

I still think the MU is in Greninja's favor because he tends to have the upper hand most of the battle. I can't really say if DK's airgame is really better than Greninja's though I'm having my doubts about it, but overall I think Greninja is just really good at keeping DK at bay while forcing him to approach and play his game, what advantages DK has I don't think compensate for just how much Greninja has going for him.

That's what I think anyway, I'm hardly an expert on the subject of MUs but I don't think DK is going to have an easy time dealing with Greninja.

While you have some legitimate points like Substitute and Shadow Sneak being underrated KO/mixup options, I feel that you are either overselling Greninja's strengths or the advantage Greninja has in the MU.

What stands out in particular to me is your take on Greninja's Bair. That move has never been an issue for me to deal with, so I can't really see why you give it such praise. It only does 9 damage at best (often only doing 4-6) and only really KO's offstage when you have rage or go really deep. In a trade scenario it will also come up short every time due to it's pitiful damage per hit, especially compared to DK's aerials.

Shadow Sneak, while underrated by most, is still a somewhat risky gambit offstage. It leaves you wide open to a counter attack should you miss. Even if they don't punish you immediately it will usually force you to recover low unless you double jump or go on the stage with it. Once you are on the lookout for it, it loses a lot of its value.

DK is combo fodder and Greninja definitely has control of the tempo of the match, but that is like DK vs everyone in a nutshell. Perhaps some of the less obvious things in DK's favor like rage, damage per hit, shield breaking potential, etc. have enough impact to make the MU more even than you'd think. Perhaps I need to play better Greninjas and get wrecked. The bottom line is that it doesn't feel like an uphill battle when I play against Greninja, so I would say it is pretty even.

 

[Gunla]

Time for Week 11! With Charizard, Samus, Ike and Yoshi!

 

[Jaguar360]

I'm fairly certain that Yoshi's a disadvantage for Greninja. Yoshi's projectile is overall better than Greninja's since it has less endlag, can be aimed and has a bit more hitstun than an uncharged Shuriken, allowing for followups at times. This, along with Yoshi's higher air speed, faster aerials, command grab and great dash attack make his approach better than Greninja's. Ninja's obviously not helpless when approaching though. Shuriken's still helpful in spite of its endlag and Yoshi's mobility making it a bit difficult to hit with. F-air outranges most of Yoshi's attacks, so well-spaced ones can be useful. Running U-smash is also good at hitting Yoshi in the air while approaching.

Yoshi also has a great defensive game going for him against Greninja. His double jump and high air speed make him one of the most difficult characters to combo, which is even more a pain considering that Yoshi has above-average weight and a good recovery. His OoS options are also better than Greninja's somewhat poor OoS options since he has a quick n-air, jump cancelled Egg Lay for an alternate grab and d-air for really unsafe moves. Greninja doesn't really have any extraordinary defensive options against Yoshi by comparison.

In terms of kill power, the two are about even. Greninja's sweetspotted U-smash can secure early kills and his other Smashes, Shadow Sneak, and f-air are also solid kill options against Yoshi. He also has the luxury of a kill throw in U-throw when things get rough. Yoshi is difficult to edgeguard, but Water Shuriken, b-air and footstools are still notable factors, especially since Greninja has the 5th highest air speed and 3rd highest fall speed for the latter two. Yoshi on the other hand, has a very fast and scary k.o. option in U-air alonside U-smash, F-smash, Yoshi Bomb, b-air, f-air and sweetspot n-air at high percents. Greninja's kind of difficult to edgeguard, but Egg Throw can be a nuisance to his recovery.

The matchup ratio is at least 40:60 in Yoshi's favor imo and possibly a bit higher. It's not unwinnable my any means, but a challenge for Greninja.

Charizard, on the other hand, is definitely disadvantaged imo (possibly 65:35?), but I'll elaborate on this later when I have time.

 

[ephOE]

Charizard's Nair, his armored moves, his range, his weight, and his good edge guarding are all really a pain.

 

[FullMoon]

I honestly can't see Yoshi being worse for us than even. I will give more thoughts on it once I can organize my thoughts better, but as a summary of what I think for these MUs:

Charizard: 60:40
Samus: 60:40
Ike: 50:50/55:45?
Yoshi: 50:50

 

[Ludiloco]

I think Yoshi is a slight disadvantage. Yoshi puts on a ton of pressure in the neutral and Greninja struggles to react to the sheer amount of hitboxes he is capable of throwing out. Yoshi's eggs make our Shurikens almost useless, as the small hop he gets when using them goes right over the shurikens and makes us unable to hit him. If you charge them you will be hit as well. Yoshi's eggs also allow for follow-ups from the air.

Kill power is about even as mentioned before, but Yoshi actually isn't threatened much by our up throw game due to the threat of his ground pound (does up air out prioritize? not sure). You could predict this and air dodge + dair or substitute, but it's still something to watch out for when you're directly underneath him. Actually, Substitute is kind of useful in this matchup against very aggressive Yoshis, because he has almost no game out of throw. Just don't get too predictable with it, obviously.

Gimping Yoshi with hydro pump is definitely a thing due to his very small third jump (egg throw), but if you're playing a good Yoshi you're going to have trouble knocking him off stage to begin with.

As far as speed and mobility Greninja can definitely keep up. You just need to watch out for nair as it makes Yoshi virtually impossible to combo, and punish whiffed dash attacks HARD. Yoshis will almost always go for one after landing the double jab, because it's a true combo if you miss your tech. Just be aware of that.

I wouldn't say it's a huge disadvantage, but Yoshi can definitely overwhelm Greninja if you're not patient (or too patient). 55:45 Yoshi's favor.

: Probably 50:50. Shurikens very useful, but Ike can absolutely mess us up at midrange. Keep him spaced and in the air.

: 60:40 us at LEAST. Type advantage pulls through here, Charizard is one of the characters we just have an absolute breeze combo-ing, and he has no answer for shuriken spacing and our speed. He can kill us early though, so just don't leave yourself open. His moves are very laggy and telegraphed though.

: Not really sure what to think here, I'd probably say slight advantage our way. Her projectiles are annoying and beat ours, but if you can get in there's very little she can do.

 

[Trunks159]

Ike Main

Hmm I use both characters, and find the matchup to be pretty even. Greninja can juggle Ike (everyone pretty much can), but Ike is sorta scary. His dtilt is something you must account for. It comes out fast , true combos into a shorthop fair, which can autocancel and can lead to a down grab to nair or fair. It also has low landing lag.

Ike doesn't have to go offstage to apply pressure while youre recovering. One of his best defenses is eruption (nuetral b). It is guaranteed to hit if timed correctly, and going above it is not an option since it hits both below the stage, and above his head.

Ike wins the neutral, and he can edgeguard you, but once Greninja just gets one hit, you can make it hell for Ike. He doesn't have Yoshi or Links or Ness's nair, his nair comes out very slow, and so do the rest of his aerials. Juggle him to no end, though be wary of his counter.

im not sure how well hyrdo pump works on his recoveries, but ike is gimpable.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Oh man, a water type matchup? Makes me wish I could bring my Charizardite X to this fight.

Unfortunately, I don't know the Greninja matchup very well, but what I can do for you guys is to give you a run down of Charizard's strengths and flaws, and I hope it provides a little insight on what you should expect when facing us.

Watch out for our...
- Jab, Nair, and Up Smash. These moves come out fast. Up Smash is also a very fast and reliable KO move.
- Flamethrower. Eats up most projectiles, has good range, and can result in free damage against recovering opponents. Between approaching, spacing and edge guarding, this move just has so much utility.
- Rock Smash. Tons of damage and tons of super armor. It can really punish people who try to juggle us. I've even eaten Bowser's F-Smash with this move before.
- Grab. We've got a long range, and while we can't combo out of our throws very well, they do good damage and can put us in an advantageous position.
- Recovery. Flare Blitz and Fly are both deadly and both armored. If you're gonna try and gimp us, do it while we're jumping. If you're super bold you can try to get us during Flare Blitz's start up, but that's really risky.

I'm not gonna give this matchup my own score, since again, I'm not really that familiar with you Greninjas, but I do hope I've provided some insight on this rarely used character.
I just hope none of you ninjas fall for the misconception that Charizard has no strengths outside of early KOs.

 

[FullMoon]

Something to keep in mind about Charizard is that upwards Substitute always hits if triggered by Flare Blitz. We can kill Charizard below 100% with it even without rage and considering the recoil from the move already sends Charizard up a bit, it probably kills a bit earlier as well. With that, one of Charizard's best moves becomes very, very risky since it's not too hard to use Substitute on reaction, especially if Charizard is far away. This also means that using Substitute to edgeguard Flare Blitz offstage is also possible to do with relative ease.

Flamethrower is annoying yes, but at least fully charged shurikens go through it.

I've had my fair share of experience with Rock Smash and I find that if you can bait Charizard into using it to escape juggling, you can very easily punish him for it with something like an Up-Smash or F-Air, so if you get too predictable with it, you really are going to get in trouble.

Charizard has good tools, but they can be very risky to use against Greninja since the frog has good damage and knockback behind his moves and also forces approaches with shurikens. Charizard's recovery makes it a bit harder to gimp him, but he can't edgeguard Greninja very well either. For the most part, Greninja juggles Charizard a lot and while Charizard does have a good option to get out of it (Rock Smash), if the Greninja sees it coming then you're going to get punished badly. It's a very uphill battle I'd say.

So, 60:40 in our favor against Charizard, in my opinion.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No real experience with the Ike vs Greninja MU

Somewhere around neutral. 50:50 or 55:45 when looking at it from Ike's perspective. Greninja can juggle Ike fairly well, projectile/retreating onstage with Up B is annoying as in the gimping with Up B. Ike fairly cleanly wins the midrange game, can juggle Greninja fairly well, autocanceling Fair/Bair is hard for Greninja to get past. Ike wins the closerange game, but not by the same margin he wins midrange.

What options does Greninja have against a retreating perfect pivot Ftilt? After the 1.0.4 patch it has fairly low recovery, PP lets us space it better, can be angled upwards if Greninja is trying to approach from the air, strong disjoined hitbox. Good shield push and shield damage.

Can Greninja mix up his recovery, or is it pretty much just "Up B, aim for ledge"?

 

[FullMoon]

Can Greninja mix up his recovery, or is it pretty much just "Up B, aim for ledge"?

Shadow Sneak can teleport him back to the stage or close to the edge and can hit an opponent waiting on the ledge if they're careless, or help him go through you if you're trying to chase him dow offstage. Also, since Ike is fairly slow, we can also recover above him, since Hydro Pump makes Greninja slide once he hits the ground which allows him to get enough distance from Ike to go through the end lag of the landing and be ready to shield any attacks. So he can mix-up his recovery a lot without putting himself at much risk.

I'm not too sure about the F-Tilt thing, I rarely see anyone use PP at all. I'm guessing Greninja could dash grab Ike if her perfect shields it at least.

 

[ZephyrZ]

With that, one of Charizard's best moves becomes very, very risky since it's not too hard to use Substitute on reaction, especially if Charizard is far away. This also means that using Substitute to edgeguard Flare Blitz offstage is also possible to do with relative ease.

Flare Blitz is very, very risky with or without substitute.
Honestly a good Charizard should only ever use it as a recovery move or a punish.

I'd be more worried about Substituting Flamethrower; you should be safe if you appear from behind Charizard's rear. I think there should be too much ending lag after Flamethrower for us to shield your counter, to.

Edit: Oh, I skimmed over the edgeguarding part. Well, that changes things a bit.
That might actually work, then.

I've had my fair share of experience with Rock Smash and I find that if you can bait Charizard into using it to escape juggling, you can very easily punish him for it with something like an Up-Smash or F-Air, so if you get too predictable with it, you really are going to get in trouble.

Yeah, I'll admit I've fallen for this trick against other characters a few times myself.
Now I try to mix it up a bit more with Flamethrower and sometimes Nair, but those have their own problems.

 

[Casval]

Regarding Ike, I feel like shuriken can help apply pressure since projectile spamming forces Ike to become airborne to approach. This opens the door for juggling, but any Ike advancing by air will most likely toss out an attack, usually nair, fair, or if you're like me, even quickdraw or a counter.

Shield against the incoming aerial and punish accordingly. Also never underestimate qd, I've hit so many people and sent them to dark places because they didn't avoid the attack.

Watch out for the jab combo, don't always assume you're safe if the first one doesn't connect. We'll most likely throw out the second hit before giving up on it.

Also, @ Ludiloco , Rockford???

 

[Spirst]

I don't see why Charizard would be using either Flare Bliz or Rock Smash vs Greninja when he has two superior options in Dragon Rush and Rock Hurl. Dragon Rush is a multi-hit that can't be substituted upwards and is much more safe to use overall since it's not easily telegraphed and doesn't bounce on contact. As for Rock Smash, Rock Hurl is definitely what Charizard should be running vs a fast character like Greninja. Unlike Rock Smash (which is SA f5 iirc), Rock Hurl has super armor on THE FIRST FRAME. This means that unless the chain is frame perfect, Charizard should always have a chance to escape.

Regarding fully charged Water Shuriken going through Flamethrower, that's true. However, I don't see why any Charizard would be using it at a point where Greninja can charge it anyway. Flamethrower works best as a retreating "get off of me" option since it's safe on shield and stuffs aerial approaches, as an edgeguard, and as an approach option to maintain space. Greninja should seldom have the time to fully charge a shuriken to beat it. As for edgeguarding Greninja, this one is a bit tricky but not too difficult. Flamethrower will screw with hydro pump if Greninja is trying to recover low since he won't be able to snap. If he does, flamethrower covers getup options as well. This means that Greninja loses his invincibility on the ledge and will continue getting flamethrowered. You can try waiting it out (which is dangerous because Charizard dsmash has a hitbox that hits below the ledge and is great for gimps/KOs) or try to go above him. If the Charizard sees this, he can follow your landing well considering he has the 8th fastest dash in the game and a good boost in dragon rush. This keeps Greninja in disadvantage and allows Charizard to continue. Shadow sneak seems useful but I wouldn't rely on it too much seeing as how everyone knows to watch out for it now.

Something to also note is that Charizard's OoS options trump Greninja's pretty solidly. Charizard can Fly OoS (though it's not always reliable but does KO and has SA), has an absurd grab range with good reward and a kill throw, and can usmash OoS (horizontal hitbox hitting on frame 7). Charizard's wings are in fact disjointed as is his tail so this makes spacing with him rather efficient. This also means Greninja should be careful about being above him. Due to being a fastfaller, Greninja is susceptible to utilt-usmash chains. 2 utilts and an usmash easily pin on 32% at low percents.

As for Greninja, yeah, Greninja can string Charizard fairly well though frame 1 SA and a third jump makes it harder. I will say that Charizard offstage is no joke as his fair can kill at mid percents and that third jump can keep him out a little longer as well as his decent recovery. One issue I see Greninja having is how to approach. Shurikens help in poking Charizard to approach, yeah, but Charizard has generally better approach options than Greninja does given his dragon rush/SH nair (which has more range than Greninja's)and SH flamethrower (which isn't easy to beat out). Greninja's main approach in SH nair is shield grab fodder for Charizard's insane grab. SH fair spacing is decent though, I suppose.

Both parties can mess each other up but when it comes to trades, Charizard will always win. The goal with Greninja should be to juggle Charizard and keep him in disadvantage while avoiding trades. Poking with shurikens is good and due to Charizard's large hurtbox, combos can be done well. Just keep the frame 1 SA in mind. Charizard in rage is legitimately terrifying and can KO at absurdly low percents. His fsmash has some invincibility frames on the active hitbox but overall slow startup. I find it best to punish landings by pivoting it/reading spotdodge happy people. Dsmash, Usmash, offstage fair, fsmash reads, and the KO dthrow are usually how I get my kills. I should also mention that Charizard has an amazing jab game that combos from nair and can be jab canceled into Fly or a grab.

Overall, I'd be hesitant to put this as anything above 55:45 in Greninja's favor and even then, I'm not sure. As a player of both characters on a competitive level, I definitely wouldn't put this as 60:40 for Greninja.

 

[Gunla]

Dragon Rush is a complete nightmare for me when I'm Greninja.

I find it to be a pretty close MU.

 

[FullMoon]

I wasn't taking customs into account for this. If we are, then instead of fully charged Water Shuriken against Charizard, then he just has to deal with transcedent Shifting Shuriken that will get him combo'd a lot.

I don't know much about Charizard's custom and I just assumed these MU discussion wouldn't be taking custom into account.

 

[Spirst]

Given that customs are becoming more accepted, I say it's fair game to take customs into account.

Shifting Shuriken helps overall, I agree. But given the use case of flamethrower and how unlike Bowser's fire breath, it has hitstun throughout the whole flame, Charizard should already have ended the animation by the time Greninja backs up and charges up the shifting shuriken. It's not as easy as just dealing with the shuriken and getting comboed a lot. I feel like you're seriously underselling Charizard.

 

[Ludiloco]

@ Casval yeah Rockford, who's this lol

 

[FullMoon]

I didn't mean to make it sound like Shifting Shuriken was the answer to everything, but I really don't have any experience dealing with a custom Charizard which is why I can't really say anything about the MU in a customs environment since I rarely ever use customs.

I do think Greninja has a 60:40 advantage in an environment without customs for the reasons I mentioned above. Though I do admit I'm probably underestimating him a bit, but from my experience beating Charizard never felt hard to do.

In a customs environment though...

 

[Casval]

@ Casval yeah Rockford, who's this lol

It's Jay

 

[Rango the Mercenary]

I have faced very few Greninjas. The only good one I played beat me by Bairing me repeatedly off-stage to death at 30%. Also, Hydro Pump works well to gimp his Aether.

If any really good Greninja players want to go at it, message me or leave a reply.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Greninja has to be really careful when their above Zard.

One bad down air and things go boom.

Especially since we can power though it.

 

[GhostUrsa]

I've fought plenty of Greninjas. A few general pointers I can give out is to never hard read with the Shadow Sneak anywhere beyond point blank, as it has a easy to read tell and the teleport is slow. Ike's Counter on reflex will actually beat it out. When point blank, it can be used as a mix-up since Greninja's physical tell is too fast. Shurikens can be a good way to bait out an impatient Ike, but keep in mind that almost everyone has the same idea against him when it comes to projectiles so most of the better Ike's won't lose their cool. Ike's aerials are slow, but cover large areas with very little landing lag which is why they are used so often. That and 2 of them can KO at decent %. When approaching an aerial Ike, approach from below to make them sweat a little. Ike's weakness in the air is his d-air, as it's hitbox doesn't linger anymore and its sweetspot is only at the tip. This makes spiking off stage hard. Unless you can outspace it, avoid approaching his back in the air. His b-air is one of his best kill moves, as it's FAST and is one of the hardest hitting moves outside of f-smash.

Never underestimating QD is great advise. If Ike is in the air and is just out of reach, he can use it to zoom in for pressure and still hit the ground with almost no lag. (If he hits the ground before going freefall state, he can move immediately after.) I've used my double jump to bait out aerial attacks and then zoomed in with QD to get my opponent offstage quite often.

Ike can be gimped, but the few Greninjas that have been able to against me were able to hit me with moves that don't cause damage or pushed me far and deep off stage. Ike's recoveries don't cover diagonals really well, any character can set up Ike to be in that area will have a gimp on him. Most Ike players will try to avoid being sent far and low as much as possible. Any attack that causes damage to Ike's hurt box will reset his specials, so repeated QD or Aethers is possible.

And something I've seen a lot from many players against Ike is that they don't respect Aether enough. It juggles, combos and in most cases can be thrown through floors and ceilings. If Ike is going for a low recovery near the stage and you can't gimp, GIVE HIM SPACE. In most stages, his sword will come through the floor and it will hit you.

When you are off stage and Ike is on, Eruption is his go to move as many have stated. But the longer he's there charging it the harder it will be to dodge around it. The explosion will get bigger, have lingering and disjointed hitboxes and will KO at low percentages. You're only bet is to either avoid it all together, force him to release early or force him to overcharge it. If overcharged, it will autofire and cause some damage to Ike which will be your opening for a return attack. If he isn't charging Eruption, he's expecting a high recovery which means a good Ike will try to intercept your Hydro pump with Aether or use an aerial before you can do so. Lastly, if you are recovering low and he goes for the walk off be careful of his b-air. If he baits an air dodge at the wrong time from you, he'll be able to use his b-air to slam you against the stage and have the stage itself spike you into oblivion. Only real defense here is to dodge at the right time (meaning a good read) or teching against the side of the stage. (Which can be tricky)

Hope this helps you guys with your Ike MU. Don't forget to pop over to our Prepare Yourself thread and put in your two cents about the MU from your perspective if you haven't yet. The more we share, the more likely we'll be able to better understand how the Meta will evolve.

 

[DungeonMaster]

For the Samus vs. ninja matchup;
I feel it's even, there are no striking problems that either player faces. It would be a long list of point-counterpoint.
I think Greninja and Samus may vie for most combos in the game.
Samus has a better projectile game, aerial pursuit on ninja can be rough, greninja is faster, samus has more range, is much heavier. Both dish out good damage on combo and strings. Ninja's smashes are safer, his jab better, his grab is actually I feel *worse* despite Samus having a tether. Samus' tilts are better. Recoveries are about the same in terms of total options. Samus trumps better. Samus has better out-of-shield options. As for ninja mindgames, well ninja has those, but unless the stage makes it hard to see they're not much of a factor.
It's pretty even, player skill primary determinant.

 

[Ludiloco]

Greninja's grab is weird. I honestly wish they just gave him a normal grab and sacrificed a little of its range. It makes matchups like Little Mac frustrating because he can throw out jabs after whiffing an attack and he'll beat our grab. There's only a few characters in the game with worse grabs than Greninja imo (villager for example). That's just his standing grab though, his dash grab is pretty good.

I'd disagree that Samus' tilts are better. Greninja's d-tilt ducks a ton of attacks and pops people up for easy follow-ups (d-tilt to up smash is a fantastic kill setup). Up tilt is a great anti-air with nice priority and range, and pops people up in hitstun for an easy up air. F-tilt is good but outclassed by jab and f-smash, so that's pretty much a wash. I think both characters have great tilts.

 

[Coffee™]

What stands out in particular to me is your take on Greninja's Bair. That move has never been an issue for me to deal
with, so I can't really see why you give it such praise. It only does 9 damage at best (often only doing 4-6) and only really KO's offstage when you have rage or go really deep. In a trade scenario it will also come up short every time due to it's pitiful damage per hit, especially compared to DK's aerials.

Bair has a ton of range and is better for gimping than KOing.

Overall, I'd be hesitant to put this as anything above 55:45 in Greninja's favor and even then, I'm not sure. As a player of both characters on a competitive level, I definitely wouldn't put this as 60:40 for Greninja.

I don't really agree. I play Zard as well and I think this matchup is pretty bad even with customs, although they help mitigate it a bit.

Greninja can stay back and poke with Shurikens until Zard approaches and does something punishable....which is practically everything except spaced FT or Jab and maybe a spaced Dtilt. Zard can get dash grabbed off anything else. Greninja's grabs also lead to a ton of percent against Zard and he doesn't have trouble landing the kill on his big frame either. Frame 1 SA on Rock Hurl is nice but the move is easily baited as well.

I feel like your write up addresses Zard's game as Greninja approaches him but Greninja can play reactively to Zards kit and at that point I don't really see this feeling that close to even.

Samus has better out-of-shield options. t

What does she have that's good outside of Up B OOs?

 

[DungeonMaster]

What does she have that's good outside of Up B OOs?

In general: 8 frame n-air that flattens you past 23% for immediate charge shot tech chase. 5 frame up-air that combos into itself (whole body is active hitbox). I'm not even sure if these hit greeninja's hurbox due to his crouching stance, bet my hat up-air does, though I will check later tonight.
And yes, the obvious trademark 6 frame invincible up-B.

 

[Shack]

Samus is a semi mid range character and can be difficult to approach due to a lot of solid defensive options. She tends to do really well keeping you just out side of your normal attacking range rather than just spamming projectiles.

All of her tilts her quite deceptive. Dtilt comes out very fast and covers a good space in front of her. FTilt might have more range than Greninja's and recovers faster. UTilt is sooo annoying, it is the perfect anti air. It stops all of Greninja's aerial approaches, has a long hit box, and out ranges all of your normal options. To add to that, the recovery is very fast, Samus can throw out a jab or DTilt deceptively fast after a whiffed/blocked UTilt. Never try to punish the UTilt, wait for the next normal she throws out and then punish. UTilt will pop you up into the air allowing for a follow up and works very well to cover any ledge shenanigans a Greninja player might be trying to use.

Bombs are annoying to get around and a good Samus will mix them up with short hops to protect her front and set up Smashes/Tilts so be careful.

Her FSmash is pretty quick and powerful. DSmash is a good option to cover rolls and behind the back attempts. USmash has limited use, but the hitboxes can be annoying to deal with.

Her aerials are strong, but Greninjas are better, the only thing I would say to watch out for are her FAir's hit box and to mix up your hydro pump angles to avoid getting spiked.

Her standard/shield grab is longer and faster than Greninja's, so have fun with that.

Her short hop ZAir has no real counter play. You can try throwing out a Substitue or full jump attacks to get around it.

You should be able to gimp her recovery every time by Substituting her UpB , bombs, hydro pump, or just using nicely placed BAirs.

My overall advice for this matchup is to not approach her on the ground, she is almost like a siege tank or defensive turret, waiting for you to get close so she can attack from a safe distance (tilt range, bombs, zair, etc.). I would really only approach when she is in the air or if you are punishing whiffed moves. Try to let her come to you and overwhelm her in the air. She is fairly easy to juggle and has no real option against Greninja's BAir. Do not try to play mind games during you recovery since she hits pretty hard and has a fast spike, just try to get back to the stage ASAP. When you're in the air, get down ASAP as well since she has a lot of options that cover directly above her and Greninja only has DAir. Samus wants you to come to her while she's on the ground, so avoid that and you should be fine. She isn't mobile enough to keep up with constant air pressure and will rely on zoning you from mid range. Oh yeah and dash > USmash is your friend, she pretty much has no answer to this when she is in the air.

 

[Coffee™]

In general: 8 frame n-air that flattens you past 23% for immediate charge shot tech chase. 5 frame up-air that combos into itself (whole body is active hitbox). I'm not even sure if these hit greeninja's hurbox due to his crouching stance, bet my hat up-air does, though I will check later tonight.
And yes, the obvious trademark 6 frame invincible up-B.

I'm curious how their neutral plays out. Imo Greninja has a slightly better advantage state and a considerably better disadvantage state as well. I'm leaning towards Samus winning the neutral though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Given that customs are becoming more accepted, I say it's fair game to take customs into account.

If we're talking customs included, I'd say Ike wins the MU then. CQC eats projectiles, pops Greninja up into a bad position above Ike, can be used as a KOing option in the air, and just overall makes Ike a much larger threat. Tempest is an absolute gimping machine that also boosts Ike's recovery and lets him go deep offstage for a gimp with a massive wind sphere. We also have the option of either Aether Drive (Diagonal, can combo for up to like 25% damage), or Aether Wave (Faster, more super armour, projectile) to help with recovery as well.

Ike just overall gets more from his customs than Greninja, and they started off around neutral. Shifting Shuriken being transcendent helps alleviate CQC's pressure a bit, but that's about it. From what I've seen/heard of Greninja's customs over in AA's Standard Customs topic, he doesn't gain much else from other customs.

 

[FullMoon]

Not too sure on customs Ike myself. I've heard of Tempest being a great gimping tool, but I think Greninja has enough diversity and range in his recovery to still be able to recover safely, especially if he saves his double jump.

I'm not entirely sure about it, but I think Exploding Attack could gimp Ike pretty badly if he's hit by it offstage and Aether has a predictable trajectory that makes him particularly easy to hit with it when you know which variant of it Ike's going for. Shifting Shuriken also helps make Close Combat less useful because Ike can't just ignore it.

So I think for the most part customs from both sides still keep the MU fairly even. Shifting Shuriken means if Ike messes up too much he can get himself killed pretty early with sweetspot Up-Smash and Greninja can still juggle him pretty well.

I think it's still even. Customs makes both of them more dangerous and they both have ways to deal with what the other can do. Custom Ike vs Custom Greninja actually sounds like a pretty fun MU.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Tempest's windbox is the largest windbox in the game when charged (edges out Kong Cycle). And we can charge it up while jumping off of the stage and still make it back. Its... pretty hard to get past and is I believe also the most powerful windbox. More or less need to be recovering high to start with, or use Up B ASAP the moment Ike looks like he's going to go off stage. Which in of itself leads to minds games for both sides, like Ike just doing an empty hop off stage and hitting the in coming Hydro Pump with Fair.

Exploding Attack I don't see working well against Aether Drive. Not the easiest version to estimate when it comes to where its going to be spinning, can still go through stages to allow Ike to just slide up the side safely and all of that. And if Exploding Attack sends Ike upwards it means he has a good chance of being able to try to recovery with CQC afterwards, which doesn't stop if it hits something.

Is SS always translucent, or only when charged? How quickly can it be spammed?

 

[FullMoon]

Can't Greninja just recover high if he sees Ike chasing offstage? I mean, Tempest takes a bit to charge so if Ike is going to attempt a gimp like that he probably needs to get off-stage early, so Greninja can just see what he's trying to do and recover high safely, right? I'm not too sure on Ike customs.

Exploding Attack has a mostly horizontal trajectory if I remember right so CQC wouldn't be the best idea for recovering after a hit from it. I'm not entirely sure of how Aether Drive works though. I do believe Exploding Attack has good on the explosion though.

SS is only transcedent when charged, but I think the start-up is the same as an uncharged regular Water Shuriken. It's slightly slower though so it's not as spammable as it.

 

[Coffee™]

Ike even with customs can't really edgeguard Greninja. Too many options for recovering. Also Sub is probably better against his Aethers and Quickdraws. Way easier to time as you just have to be in the way.

 

[FullMoon]

Ike even with customs can't really edgeguard Greninja. Too many options for recovering. Also Sub is probably better against his Aethers and Quickdraws. Way easier to time as you just have to be in the way.

Yeah I was thinking of that as well just now.

 

[FlAlex]

For the Samus vs. ninja matchup;
I feel it's even, there are no striking problems that either player faces. It would be a long list of point-counterpoint.
I think Greninja and Samus may vie for most combos in the game.
Samus has a better projectile game, aerial pursuit on ninja can be rough, greninja is faster, samus has more range, is much heavier. Both dish out good damage on combo and strings. Ninja's smashes are safer, his jab better, his grab is actually I feel *worse* despite Samus having a tether. Samus' tilts are better. Recoveries are about the same in terms of total options. Samus trumps better. Samus has better out-of-shield options. As for ninja mindgames, well ninja has those, but unless the stage makes it hard to see they're not much of a factor.
It's pretty even, player skill primary determinant.

I disagree. Greninja has a slight advantage simply because he has safer moves that string into kill moves. I remember facing a good greninja who would Dtilt to UpSmash and Dtilt to Fair for kills. I could not escape them because of Samus' floatiness (or I suck at DI which is probable). I don't see Samus killing Greninja as easily. He also out prioritizes our aerial moves too.

Still a close MU though.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Can't Greninja just recover high if he sees Ike chasing offstage? I mean, Tempest takes a bit to charge so if Ike is going to attempt a gimp like that he probably needs to get off-stage early, so Greninja can just see what he's trying to do and recover high safely, right? I'm not too sure on Ike customs.

Exploding Attack has a mostly horizontal trajectory if I remember right so CQC wouldn't be the best idea for recovering after a hit from it. I'm not entirely sure of how Aether Drive works though. I do believe Exploding Attack has good on the explosion though.

SS is only transcedent when charged, but I think the start-up is the same as an uncharged regular Water Shuriken. It's slightly slower though so it's not as spammable as it.

If he's recovering high then Ike has a pretty low risk Aether/Uair attempt for extra damage/kill if its Uair but probably isn't knocking Greninja back off stage. The stuff with Tempest is for if Greninja got knocked horizontal or low off stage. If he was recovering high and I was in position I still might try Tempest. That Up B momentum + windbox sending him significantly higher = flying off the other side of the stage.

If SS is only transcendent when charged, we can most likely CQC through any spam/uncharged poking attempts with it. CQC will either flat out beat it or clank, which lets us act again sooner.

Unless Sub/one of its variants is one of those Counters that freezes the opponent, its not going to stop a CQC recovery (Ike doesn't stop to swing), and it won't stop an Aether Drive that's done near the stage. The apex of the sword throw will be like 1/4 of the way into the stage, but Ike will just ride up the side of the stage and grab the ledge.

 

[FullMoon]

Uncharged Shifting Shuriken is pretty much never used since it barely moves forward, it has the same start-up as a charged one so Ike really isn't going to deal with anything other than charged shuriken.

I think we would need to see this MU in practice before really analyzing it. That's the problem with taking customs into consideration right now, it's hard to tell how the MU goes without seeing it in practice and customs still aren't too widely used for us to gauge something.

I would be up for some custom matches if I wasn't in college right now.