Meta Mastery of the Arts - Greninja Matchup Thread Archive

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Dair to utilt is guaranteed I think
<:
Dair>utilt a couple of times>nair is a great damage rack against blue kermit

 

[Ludiloco]

So you needed some info? Here's what I know:

Kirby's Advantages: Kirby can easily up-tilt juggle fast-fallers, and Greninja is no exception. Logically, he could go for a lot of d-air setups, mainly for that up-tilt. Then Kirby can copy your Water Shurikens and boast a pretty solid projectile. Like Greninja, Kirby can probably get some follow-ups after fully charged Water Shurikens, as well. Kirby also holds a great arsenal of edgeguarding moves, b-air and d-air in particular. If he gets the hang of your recovering pattern or reads your Hydro Pump direction, the Greninja is gonna have a pretty hard time successfully returning onto the stage. Also, Kirby might hit you with Stone if Greninja is far enough below the ledge. Last, but not least, the little puff can crouch under your moves... sort of. He can duck under your f-smash and the side hitboxes of the up-smash, except if you're REALLY close to him to connect them. And he crouches under Greninja's grabs. Obviously, Kirby's light, so Greninja doesn't have that many true combos.

Greninja's Advantages: Well, Greninja can utilize his Water Shuriken to keep Kirby from approaching. Then he could apply pressure with n-airs and maybe f-airs as a mix-up. Catching Kirby in midair with up-smash is also essential, with a well enough read. Generally, I find Greninja to be useful at pressuring Kirby. And if you continuously rack up damage, you could score a well enough hit to possibly KO him. Greninja's jab and d-tilt work effectively, as well, since Kirby can't duck under that either.

Maybe a rough 60:40 in Kirby's favor, overall. Hope this was useful...

I don't really see how this analysis leads to a fairly large advantage for Kirby.

Edge guarding Greninja is much harder than you give it credit for. There are many safe ways Greninja can use Hydro pump to sweet spot the ledge (either diagonally or like aMSa does it, horizontal to vertical) that really leaves almost no opening. And believe me, even as Kirby the last thing you want to do is mess up that edge guard and put yourself in disadvantage against a Greninja. I'm not saying don't try, I'm saying be conservative and respect that you don't have a consistent option to punish hydro pump. Playing the ledge getup mind game is going to net you much better results than going offstage. Shadow Sneak and Counter offstage can be absolute nightmares to deal with, as well as the obvious B-air and Fair.

Crouching for Kirby is nice up close, but at a distance really doesn't get him anywhere. Even up close, down tilt and FF nair are two of Greninja's best string starters and will punish Kirby from trying to crouch too much. It's also kinda silly to say Greninja doesn't have many true combos on Kirby. Greninja has several guaranteed combos, just not necessarily out of throw. It's about using d-tilt, up tilt, and ff nair to pop your opponent up for followups. Up throw to up air is the big one everyone knows, but it's not guaranteed past mid % on most characters and becomes a mindgame. In Kirby's case, stone and dair can be used to punish greedy ninjas.

Again I do think Kirby has nice tools in this matchup, and if Greninja sits in his shield and lets Kirby control the pace of the match it's going to be a rough time. But with Ninja's mobility and kill power on Kirby, as well as fairly safe recovery options, I don't really see this as an advantageous matchup for Kirby. It's about 50:50 imo, maybe a slight advantage to Ninja.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

I forgot Final Cutter is dirt so Hydro Pump gives Greninja an easy gimp on certain stages

 

[Sparky15]

I don't really see how this analysis leads to a fairly large advantage for Kirby.

Edge guarding Greninja is much harder than you give it credit for. There are many safe ways Greninja can use Hydro pump to sweet spot the ledge (either diagonally or like aMSa does it, horizontal to vertical) that really leaves almost no opening. And believe me, even as Kirby the last thing you want to do is mess up that edge guard and put yourself in disadvantage against a Greninja. I'm not saying don't try, I'm saying be conservative and respect that you don't have a consistent option to punish hydro pump. Playing the ledge getup mind game is going to net you much better results than going offstage. Shadow Sneak and Counter offstage can be absolute nightmares to deal with, as well as the obvious B-air and Fair.

Crouching for Kirby is nice up close, but at a distance really doesn't get him anywhere. Even up close, down tilt and FF nair are two of Greninja's best string starters and will punish Kirby from trying to crouch too much. It's also kinda silly to say Greninja doesn't have many true combos on Kirby. Greninja has several guaranteed combos, just not necessarily out of throw. It's about using d-tilt, up tilt, and ff nair to pop your opponent up for followups. Up throw to up air is the big one everyone knows, but it's not guaranteed past mid % on most characters and becomes a mindgame. In Kirby's case, stone and dair can be used to punish greedy ninjas.

Again I do think Kirby has nice tools in this matchup, and if Greninja sits in his shield and lets Kirby control the pace of the match it's going to be a rough time. But with Ninja's mobility and kill power on Kirby, as well as fairly safe recovery options, I don't really see this as an advantageous matchup for Kirby. It's about 50:50 imo, maybe a slight advantage to Ninja.

I was aware of the many ways Hydro Pump can be used to safely recover back onstage. I just didn't mention or emphasise how effective it truly was. Honestly, it is difficult to land a b-air or d-air on Greninja, but doing so is also pretty effective.

Maybe I underestimated how many follow-ups Greninja had from d-tilts and n-airs. I was just comparing the number of them to generally heavier characters, especially fast-fallers and a heavyweights.

Lastly and quite frankly, the matchup ratio isn't that accurate on my part. Greninja does outmatch Kirby in the neutral game, at least. That should be enough to give Kirby a terrible time. Thinking twice, it probably is a bit more lenient on Greninja's side. I didn't know 60:40 was so imminent. Gee, I'm not that good at that, even though I'm rarely do it.

 

[kirbyfan66]

Kirby being below Greninja is actually far from a bad place for Kirby - Kirby has some pretty good anti-airs with his Up Tilt, Up Air, and even Up Smash. As stated before, Kirby can Up Tilt Greninja to about 32% or so, and can even follow the last Up Tilt up with a Back Air (or the second to last one with an Up Smash). Since Custom Moves are definitely a big thing, if the Kirby player picks Upper Cutter, then Greninja can basically do nothing. We of the Kirby boards think very highly of Upper Cutter. Wave Cutter has also been growing on us (thank you, Kirby boards) and it helps in this match - aside from a copied shuriken, Kirby can't do anything from a distance without Wave Cutter. It helps him deal with projectile shenanigans.

Greninja's Up Special water shenanigans usually don't work on good Kirby players, because his multiple jumps prevent him from getting gimped. If you see Kirby use Final/Wave/Upper Cutter then I would go for it, but otherwise I don't think gimping Kirby with Greninja is worth it. If anything, throw some shurikens or well placed Forward Airs to rack up some extra damage before Kirby gets back on stage. Just be weary that, on the off chance that a Kirby player decides "I want to use Final Cutter for some reason" that you don't get Final Cutter Spiked. It isn't very effective in this game, but it can definitely KO you if you're not careful.

Kirby is mostly a well balanced character, but he has one fatal flaw: His range. He has some other issues, but it's possible to make up for those. His range is what holds him back, and Greninja can take advantage of that. However, most Kirby players know about Kirby's bad range and will do anything they can to bait, punish, and get nasty combos on other people. Kirby actually has some neat combos - one that works on Greninja at mid %s is Up Tilt -> Up Air -> Upper Cutter. And if a Kirby is using Wave Cutter, then Kirby can effectively gimp you onstage. It's crazy.

I'm not a Greninja expert, but I know Greninja can outrange Kirby and play a solid poke/keep away, requiring Kirby to come in. He's also fairly easy to combo, which is really good for Greninja considering Kirby is light. I don't know much about Greninja Customs, but the shuriken that draws opponents in is probably the ideal standard special for this match. Even if Kirby inhales your shuriken with Jumping Inhale (the other two are awful in this matchup), we get the normal one while you get cool one. '^'

I think the best set for this matchup (as far as Kirby goes) that we have set up for the Customs Project is 3233 - Jumping Inhale (can't punish our Inhale with a Down Air, plus we get a projectile), Hammer Bash (a much quicker Hammer that can KO before 110% without Rage), Upper Cutter (see above), and Meteor Stone (all Greninja's I've seen recover low, so having Meteor Stone is scary for this match). 3231 is also super good because Normal Stone is equally effective. 3221 - basically take the last set and ditch Upper Cutter for Wave Cutter - is also one to look out for because... well, see above.

Really, just play patiently against Kirby, zone him, outrange him, and mentally destroy him. That is actually quite difficult. So is stage striking, as Kirby players can pick custom moves that help him on certain stages. I think this match is 60:40 in Kirby's favor.

 

[Ludiloco]

See I actually think Kirby wins in neutral and loses everywhere else

But ok

 

[ephOE]

Kirby's Utilt strings can be escaped with Shadow Sneak at low %, although this could be risky if the Kirby player can react fast enough. Well-timed Shadow Sneaks are also useful for punishing Kirby's aerial approaches.

Shuriken are indeed good for keeping Kirby at bay. In a customs environment, I definitely prefer WS 1 over Shifting Shuriken against Kirby. Customs Kirby is MUCH more dangerous, probably putting it at an even MU if not slightly in Kirby's favor. Without customs, I definitely see the MU in Greninja's favor.

The frame data on Kirby's smashes though. They're pretty dangerous.

 

[FullMoon]

There's no way Kirby wins the MU. If anything else it's even.

Greninja's aerials outrange Kirby's so in an air battle Greninja can really keep Kirby away, plus both F-Air and B-Air are completely safe on shield if spaced correctly, which makes Kirby struggle to get in. That's not even considering Water Shuriken harassing Kirby and forcing him to approach from the air, where Greninja wins. See?

However Kirby's D-Air combos and Up-Tilt are very annoying for Greninja to get around but from my experience thanks to Greninja's fall speed he can actually shield the follow ups from D-Air in time to get a punish on Kirby. All of Kirby's smashes leave him very open for a grab or a Smash of our own and he's light, meaning we can get a KO on him very quickly especially if we catch him with a sweetspot Up-Smash.

Off-stage, Greninja has a much easier time edgeguarding Kirby than the opposite. Kirby chasing Greninja off-stage is very vulnerable to being hit by a Shadow Sneak from behind if the Greninja times it well, plus Hydro Pump is very versatile. Meanwhile, Greninja can harass Kirby with shurikens or a B-Air to make him recover low, leaving Kirby in the perfect position to be stage spiked by a b-air since Final Cutter is a completely vertical recovery. Even without a stage spike Greninja can push Kirby away from the ledge with Hydro Pump. That's not to say that Kirby can't edgeguard Greninja, he can if he reads what he's going to do, but Greninja can get far more consistent results gimping Final Cutter.

Greninja in general outranges Kirby both in the ground and the air and forces him to approach because of the shurikens. Forcing Kirby to play Greninja's game and that alone already puts him in a bad position since the frog especializes in waiting for the opponent to come after him and punish their attempts of attack. Greninja also has one of the best dash grabs in the game making so that if Kirby messes up he's going to be grabbed and put on a disadvantageous state against a character with one of the best advantageous positions in the game.

In short, Greninja has more power behind his moves and Kirby is lighter, allowing him to kill very early, has better edgeguarding options, better range and forces Kirby to approach; but Kirby has very damaging combos, multiple jumps to mess with our Up-Smash and a D-Air with almost no end lag that can really harass us.

I can't see Kirby winning this MU at all. If customs are involved then yes, Kirby does get great tools, but Greninja also gets a tool that lets him true combo into Up-Smash and kill Kirby as early as 70% with little to no risk involved, so the MU would probably stay the same regardless.

 

[Luco]

Ohhhh, the Greninja MU is one I really would have loved more time with. One of the other Ness mains with more exp on it can discuss it, but I'm gonna argue that you're over-rating how easily we get gimped... because it's really not that easy when we conserve DJ / PKT in particular places offstage. :D

 

[Codaption]

Hmmm.....Greninja, eh?

As a puff main, it seems kinda obvious. Definitely in Bluey's favor in this MU, for a number of reasons:

1. Greninja's aerials have range that can challenge ours. This is a major, MAJOR issue, which could by itself turn the matchup in Gren's favor. We do poorly against Marthcina for this very reason.

2. Greninja actually benefits from fast-falling in this MU. Puff doesn't have a whole lot of vertical combo options, period. The only one off the top of my head is utilt...which only works at low percents and gets us like, two hits. Meanwhile, our best kill option is weakened (crippled, even) by Ninja Frog's fall speed. Fortunately, Gren's (apparently poor) frame data allows us to land it more easily as a punish, so there's that.

3. We can't reliably edgeguard Greninja's recovery. It's not only good, but pretty wonky too. If Amphibidude can get past our Nair, there's not we can do to it without ledge reads....and Jiggs would much rather go offstage for gimps than that.

4. Our retreating Fairs can be countered. Our normally safe-on-shield option can be easily distrupted by a well-timed counter. Not particularly important (and already said), but nevertheless its another tack against poor Jiggs.

And, of course....

5. Good god, this guy has some vertical kill options. Sweetspotted Usmash and Uair may be just two moves, but they can really run our day if they land. And they should have no trouble landing, because they are both fast moves. I know I wouldn't want to be caught by that drill kick of yours.... >.>;

I'd go as far as 65:35 in Gren's favor for this one, unless somebody can come and note something to Puff's benefit. It's even worse with customs, as we definitely got pooped on in that department.

 

[Ludiloco]

Ohhhh, the Greninja MU is one I really would have loved more time with. One of the other Ness mains with more exp on it can discuss it, but I'm gonna argue that you're over-rating how easily we get gimped... because it's really not that easy when we conserve DJ / PKT in particular places offstage. :D

I definitely don't think gimping Ness is easy unless you have a character that really has no risk going out to challenge PK Thunder 2 (Villager comes to mind, invincibility on pocket means they either grab it or likely avoid PKT2). Even Hydro Pump is not a foolproof tool for gimping Ness. If you mis-aim your stream you could end up getting bopped and most Ness players know to conserve their PKT until they absolutely need it anyway. And of course, Ness wins this MU in neutral so to get him off the stage is not as easy as it sounds.

There's a reason Ness is considered one of the best characters even with a very risky recovery game, it's because having to use PKT with such a high double jump and good aerial mobility isn't a huge issue very often.

 

[ephOE]

I definitely don't think gimping Ness is easy unless you have a character that really has no risk going out to challenge PK Thunder 2 (Villager comes to mind, invincibility on pocket means they either grab it or likely avoid PKT2). Even Hydro Pump is not a foolproof tool for gimping Ness. If you mis-aim your stream you could end up getting bopped and most Ness players know to conserve their PKT until they absolutely need it anyway. And of course, Ness wins this MU in neutral so to get him off the stage is not as easy as it sounds.

There's a reason Ness is considered one of the best characters even with a very risky recovery game, it's because having to use PKT with such a high double jump and good aerial mobility isn't a huge issue very often.

When trying to gimp Ness with Hydro Pump (or a lot of characters, really), you generally don't want to get close enough that PKT2 could be a problem. Hydro Pump doesn't have an immediate start up, so it is risky. Same thing with Substitute - you can really ruin Ness's day with a well timed Sub, especially against a PKT2 that isn't off stage, but it doesn't come out very quickly so it's not nearly as safe up close.

I feel big part of the MU is being able to judge distances and pick your moments. Will you be able to get in and punish in time? Can you safely throw out a Hydro Pump against Ness offstage, or jump over PK Fire and safely land an aerial before he can block? I feel like Greninja players should already be pretty good at this, since Greninja tends to be very opportunistic.

For the most part, it's very risky for Ness to not recover to the ledge. He's floaty, so if he goes over Greninja can get right underneath him. His next best option besides going to the ledge might be using Fair, which has a good disjoint and doesn't extend his hurtbox, to come up and over the edge. Not a great option if the Greninja sees it coming, though. Greninja doesn't have the greatest options against Ness immediately after he's grabbed the ledge. However, if you know that they're going for the ledge, you can be prepared.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja is one of the characters that can safely gimp Ness's PK Thunder with no risk by using Hydro Pump. Even if Ness manages to launch himself the windbox is still going to leave him in a bad position most of the time, allowing us to finish him off. Greninja certainly has a big advantage offstage, especially since a well-timed shuriken can eat Ness's double jump and force him to PK Thunder.

I don't think Ness necessarily wins Neutral, because PK Fire has a rather short range compared to shurikens even though they clash with each other. PK Fire leaves Ness very open though and this is a pretty bad thing to do against Greninja since you just leave yourself open for a combo, if we bait a PK Fire we can even punish it with a Shadow Sneak in time depending on the distance. On the ground, Ness's attacks are strong but F-Smash has a good amount of start-up and Up and Down Smash aren't that impressive overall. The main thing to worry about Ness when he's grounded is his dash attack and his grab, especially when we're in B-Throw kill %.

Ness's strength is in his aerials and I believe his F-Air outranges our, giving Ness an edge against us in a straight air fight. However if we can get him above us there's not much he can do other than N-Air or airdodging to get back on the ground, giving us a chance to really bring out the pain on him. If Ness gets us at disadvantage, we at least have Hydro Pump to get us away from Ness and back to the ground quickly, plus we fall fast to make reaching the ground faster.

So for the most part I think Greninja actually wants to stay grounded most of the time against Ness outside of occasionally throwing some short hop aerials to pressure Ness a bit. Our options aren't exactly better than Ness's on the ground, but our dash grab certainly helps to get him where we want to. Plus Ness loves to go throwing aerials and by being on the ground we can catch him with our Up-Smash which can make a big difference.

So overall, I think the Neutral is pretty between them, maybe slightly on Ness's favor because of F-Air's disjoint. Both Greninja and Ness have very good advantageous positions so it's hard to say one is better than the other here. Greninja has a superior disadvantage position though and he also has superior edgeguarding, though don't underestimate Ness's ability to harass you with PK Thunders either.

I would say that this MU could be slightly in Greninja's favor overall, but we also have to remember Ness has better kill options and overall he can kill us early with PK Thunder 2, F-Smash (those two are really easy to shield on reaction though) and B-Throw while usually if we kill him early is because we got an Up-Smash hit or gimped him.

So Ness's superior power in his moves make this MU a solid 50-50 for me.

 

[raizur]

From my experience, I'd say Kirby has the upper hand against a Greninja. I say that becasue Kirby can easily combo off of Greninja, due to Greninja's weight and size. Also, if Kirby inhales Greninja, it gives him a pretty good projectile to use for gimping, or for whatever you desire. On top of that, Kirby can crouch out of a lot of Greninja's attacks including f smash, few tilts, etc. With the crouch, Kirby has the option to dtilt, which could trip Greninja, allowing Kirby to either, get a kill with f smash, or turning it into a combo or a string. I'd give it about (kirby) 60:40 (Greninja) range.

 

[Ludiloco]

lol are you guys for real

 

[FullMoon]

The only move Kirby is dodging by crouching is F-Smash and Up-tilt. F-Tilt can be aimed downwards and if Greninja is using Up-Smash he probably wasn't trying to hit you with the side hitbox anyway. Two moves is not a lot, especially when one of those is more of an anti-air move. I suppose you can also duck under shurikens but it's not like Kirby can take advantage of that with a crawl to approach us.

And here I thought the Ness MU would be the one that would be all over the place.

 

[raizur]

The only move Kirby is dodging by crouching is F-Smash and Up-tilt. F-Tilt can be aimed downwards and if Greninja is using Up-Smash he probably wasn't trying to hit you with the side hitbox anyway. Two moves is not a lot, especially when one of those is more of an anti-air move. I suppose you can also duck under shurikens but it's not like Kirby can take advantage of that with a crawl to approach us.

And here I thought the Ness MU would be the one that would be all over the place.

You make very good points. Even so, if Kirby can only crouch under two attacks, it's better than none at all. This gives kirby more defensive options, and ultimately, take less damage. Kirby isn't all that great approaching, so waiting for the opponent to approach Kirby is sometimes the right way to go. Like in my last post, if Kirby does duck under an attack, and if he's close, he can use his down tilt, giving him an offensive option. Sure, it's a little offensive option, but it's an option.

 

[FullMoon]

You make very good points. Even so, if Kirby can only crouch under two attacks, it's better than none at all. This gives kirby more defensive options, and ultimately, take less damage. Kirby isn't all that great approaching, so waiting for the opponent to approach Kirby is sometimes the right way to go. Like in my last post, if Kirby does duck under an attack, and if he's close, he can use his down tilt, giving him an offensive option. Sure, it's a little offensive option, but it's an option.

Actually no, Kirby can't crouch under shurikens so he's going to be forced to approach Greninja no matter what, otherwise Greninja can just pelt him with shurikens forever.

So the only really relevant attack Kirby can crouch under is F-Smash and even then it's something you would have to bait out which can easily work against you because if Greninja throws a d-tilt instead while you're crouching then you just gave yourself to a combo from us. It's an option but hardly something game-changing.

Greninja still outranges Kirby with pretty much all of his attacks thanks to his disjoints that don't expand his hurtbox. He can kill Kirby faster than Kirby can kill him thanks to his weight (sweetspot Up-Smash kills him at 78% without any rage, and considering Kirby's main way of approaching is an aerial....), plus if Greninja forces him to use Final Cutter, he's extremely gimpable.

Kirby is going to have a very hard time getting in on Greninja but he does very well once he manages that, at the same time though, Greninja has a good number of combos, a great advantage and disadvantage state and is very hard to edgeguard while being able to edgeguard Kirby pretty well with shuriken harassment to force him to go low like you yourself stated. Our dash grab also allows you to punish nearly any mistake Kirby makes on the ground.

I can't see how Kirby wins here considering Greninja can just keep him at bay most of the match if he wants while Kirby can do almost nothing about it other than make reads or wait for Greninja to mess up.

I think it's even mainly because if Kirby copies the shurikens, then things become harder for Greninja as he doesn't force Kirby to approach anymore. Kirby will kinda struggle to inhale Greninja in the first place and of course we can take the copy from him. I think it's something that makes enough impact to make the MU even though. That and Kirby is really scary once he gets in.

 

[raizur]

Actually no, Kirby can't crouch under shurikens so he's going to be forced to approach Greninja no matter what, otherwise Greninja can just pelt him with shurikens forever.

So the only really relevant attack Kirby can crouch under is F-Smash and even then it's something you would have to bait out which can easily work against you because if Greninja throws a d-tilt instead while you're crouching then you just gave yourself to a combo from us. It's an option but hardly something game-changing.

Greninja still outranges Kirby with pretty much all of his attacks thanks to his disjoints that don't expand his hurtbox. He can kill Kirby faster than Kirby can kill him thanks to his weight (sweetspot Up-Smash kills him at 78% without any rage, and considering Kirby's main way of approaching is an aerial....), plus if Greninja forces him to use Final Cutter, he's extremely gimpable.

Kirby is going to have a very hard time getting in on Greninja but he does very well once he manages that, at the same time though, Greninja has a good number of combos, a great advantage and disadvantage state and is very hard to edgeguard while being able to edgeguard Kirby pretty well with shuriken harassment to force him to go low like you yourself stated. Our dash grab also allows you to punish nearly any mistake Kirby makes on the ground.

I can't see how Kirby wins here considering Greninja can just keep him at bay most of the match if he wants while Kirby can do almost nothing about it other than make reads or wait for Greninja to mess up.

I think it's even mainly because if Kirby copies the shurikens, then things become harder for Greninja as he doesn't force Kirby to approach anymore. Kirby will kinda struggle to inhale Greninja in the first place and of course we can take the copy from him. I think it's something that makes enough impact to make the MU even though. That and Kirby is really scary once he gets in.

The information that I've collected in my posts are from my own experiences against highly skilled Greninjas. From those matches, Kirby comes through and wins me the game a vast majority of the time. Though, after testing a few things around, I do see my mistakes from the older posts. Yes, Kirby cannot crouch under and shurikens, however, there's nothing stopping Kirby from simply jumping over them. Now, I'm not saying to simply jump over them to get to Greninja, but instead, a Kirby player can use a mind game. make the Greninja player think Kirby's going straight at him, and once the Greninja player reacts to Kirby getting closer, Kirby can counter accordingly, if that may be from an aerial attack, or whatever they please.

Honestly, i think the match up is even. I know I said other wise in a past post, but after giving it thought and testing, the match up is 50:50. Both characters have their strength and weakness, but in this match up, they seem to cancel out imo.

 

[FullMoon]

The information that I've collected in my posts are from my own experiences against highly skilled Greninjas. From those matches, Kirby comes through and wins me the game a vast majority of the time. Though, after testing a few things around, I do see my mistakes from the older posts. Yes, Kirby cannot crouch under and shurikens, however, there's nothing stopping Kirby from simply jumping over them. Now, I'm not saying to simply jump over them to get to Greninja, but instead, a Kirby player can use a mind game. make the Greninja player think Kirby's going straight at him, and once the Greninja player reacts to Kirby getting closer, Kirby can counter accordingly, if that may be from an aerial attack, or whatever they please.

Honestly, i think the match up is even. I know I said other wise in a past post, but after giving it thought and testing, the match up is 50:50. Both characters have their strength and weakness, but in this match up, they seem to cancel out imo.

In the situation you said, I imagine Greninja could just use a retreating F-Air if he was expecting Kirby to come in, which would be unpunishable and would pretty much leave things the way they were at the beginning. Besides, mindgames are more of a player thing than something about the character themselves. Whether or not Greninja is going to fall for that trick is the same as whether or not Greninja is going to be able to Substitute Kirby's Up-Smash and kill him at 76% with an upwards substitute without rage. That's more like a read that depends on someone else to mess up, while you can't deny that Greninja really controls the neutral game with how he keeps Kirby away while also forcing him to approach.

But at least I guess we agree on the ratio.

 

[Coffee™]

Um....wut?

Greninja beats Kirby for the same reasons he beats the Mario brothers. Kirby simply doesn't deal well with his mobility+range. Sure, he has combos when he gets in, but that's every character. He loses neutral, does okish in advantage but it's nothing to write home about, and has a poor disadvantage stage in the matchup. The only area where these two probably go evenish against each other is edgeguarding....

 

[ephOE]

Greninja could just use a retreating F-Air

Greninja beats Kirby for the same reasons he beats the Mario brothers. Kirby simply doesn't deal well with his mobility+range.

This and this. Kirby's horizontal speed while in air is very bad. Greninja just shouldn't be getting caught by Kirby's Dair unless he's baited in by a Kirby he thinks is about to land. Kirby can't "air camp" nearly as well as Jigglypuff or Dedede, though.

 

[Codaption]

The only area where these two probably go evenish against each other is edgeguarding....

Considering how easy it is to gimp FC with Pump and how hard it is to edgeguard Gren in general, I'd say he wins there too.

I can't see kirby having anything in this matchup.

 

[FullMoon]

Considering how easy it is to gimp FC with Pump and how hard it is to edgeguard Gren in general, I'd say he wins there too.

I can't see kirby having anything in this matchup.

You don't even need to use Hydro Pump, you can just stage spike Kirby with B-Air as well. I myself think of the MU as even mainly because most of the time I faced Kirby I actually struggled quite a bit, but I guess that may be just unfamiliarity.

Since I haven't talked about her yet, I'm gonna talk about Jiggs.

So... Super light character who spends 80% of the match on the air going against one of the most mobile characters in the game with a powerful anti-air move that can kill her as early as 65% without rage, a fairly low profile and aerials that outranges hers.

... Yeah I can't see Jigglypuff having a good time against Greninja. In a sense Jigglypuff is much like the Kirby MU, but easier because Jigglypuff is even lighter and more vulnerable to our Up-Smash, Up-Air and Up-Tilt. She doesn't even have a tool to help her escape juggles while I guess Kirby could use Stone for surprise kills.

On the plus side for Jiggs, she can still be a pain with her aerials and wall of pain is always annoying to deal with. Rest can kill us very early though it's going to be hard to land with Greninja playing keep-away with Jiggs. Plus Greninja can't really edgeguard Jigglypuff all too well, though the same applies to the opposite.

Overall... Poor Jigglypuff doesn't really have many options against Greninja at all. Her emphasis on air game leaves her as a prime target for our main kill moves, we outrange her, we can recover safely against her and we force her to approach. It's a pretty clear advantage for us.

So for these three new MUs I'd say:

Kirby: 50/50~60/40 (I need more experience with this one)
Jigglypuff: 60/40~ 70/30 (I don't really think it's that bad but Greninja doesn't have just a slight advantage either, I think)
Ness: 50/50

Funny how Greninja seems to have an advantage over most of the other Pokémon characters. The only one I can think as an exception is Lucario (I think it's even myself) and maybe Customs Zard.

 

[Codaption]

....Yeah that sounds about right.
I'd put it at 65:35 myself, it's a nice little balance between the two and actually measures it fairly well.

 

[FalKoopa]

The Luigis are discussing Greninja this week.

Click the Warp Pipe to teleport there.

 

[Gunla]

This day will end in a few hours with a larger update, but for now, continue discussion.

MUs Added as of this post:
Ness (50/50)
Jigglypuff (65:35 Greninja)
Luigi (60:40 Greninja, see the Luigi boards)
Bowser (55:45 Greninja)
Dedede (60:40 Greninja)
EDIT: Kirby's MU I haven't found a general guess on, so I removed it (it was 45:55 Kirby that was planned to be placed, but I'd prefer more discussion on it.)

 

[kirbyfan66]

If we're still going to talk about the Kirby MU then I'll post a little here.

Kirby can't crouch under shurikens, the best he can do is block them. If anything else, they're ludicrously easy to perfect shield unless Greninja is either right in front of Kirby (there isn't really a good reason to use them there from what I know, but I could be wrong) or the Greninja player gets really, really creative. Which is tricky against Kirby since the only way to really win with Kirby is by... well, being really, really creative.

I guess 60:40 is a bit of a stretch, but I don't see Greninja really winning the matchup, either. He has good KO options and is very fast, but comboing Kirby at all is really hard because of how light he is. About the only easy combo Greninja has is custom shuriken into Up Smash, and that does not KO Kirby at 70%. Maybe on stages with a lower ceiling, but on most stages it doesn't.

Why would Kirby be using Final Cutter in this match, though? Even Kirby players think that it's garbage. I can't see why any Kirby would recover low and not have a few jumps left. Heck, with customs legal, we get Upper Cutter, and Kirby recovers for free with it. You have to be ludicrously quick to get Kirby from below the stage vs Upper Cutter. And if we're using Wave Cutter instead, then we have an option from far away. (Upper Cutter is better for the MU - Wave Cutter isn't useless but Upper Cutter helps more.)

What options does Greninja get on ledge trump, by the way? Kirby can get a free Back Air off of one (Greninja might fall too fast to get it "for free", but I'll have to test). The Greninja I play against the most doesn't aim for ledge and usually aims for below platforms, although that can be blamed on me not punishing him properly in that scenario.

I guess 50:50 sounds about right? I still think Kirby wins it but Greninja does have tools scary enough to make Kirby worry.

 

[Gunla]

Tagging @Spirst as well; you should be aware of this.

I'm happy to announce that we have gone through with the very first "season" (being all 13 weeks, with 51 characters)!

I have revamped the second post of this thread to include a detailed MU chart, and a simplified matchup chart with just numerical values. At the moment, 12 matchups have been added.

This week will be an intermission. At this time, you may discuss about any current matchups on the board that may need adjustment, any matchups that can pretty easily be added that I may have missed, future rotation weeks for Season 2, and such. In addition, Mewtwo will be included in this Season, likely a week or two after it's release.

 

[FullMoon]

I think the following characters are the ones we still need to talk more about:



Those characters didn't exactly much int he way of discussion about them so we should probably try to figure out these MUs.

And hey @ Ffamran you can now give some input on Greninja vs Falco, see, I remembered Falco this time!

 

[Coffee™]

Especially Diddy....matchup is ********.

 

[Ffamran]

I think I've fought like 5 Greninja as Falco and they were from a long time ago. There are some videos here and in the Falco boards we could use and maybe others have fought this MU a lot. I guess Greninja will be after Pikachu since I needed a pair per week - it'll be the week after next, next week.

 

[FullMoon]

To be honest, I have quite a lot of Diddy experience thanks to Anther's Ladder and I must say, this isn't a bad MU for us.

Both characters are similar in that they get much mileage of their throws, Diddy more so but still. Greninja's amazing advantageous state makes so that if we get Diddy where we want him to, we can really wreck havoc on him. Diddy's best option for getting out of juggles in Monkey Flip, which is not a bad choice, but if you can predict a use of it you can really punish him.

Greninja's disjoints really help in this MU, but Diddy has some himself so it's pretty even in that regard. Bananas are annoying but at least our shuriken cancels them and IIRC we can't trip while grabbing someone. Greninja can also take advantage of Diddy's bananas if we manage to catch them, such as using it to set up a d-tilt combo or a Dash Attack -> F-Air. We have a great dash grab and it really helps make this MU a lot less irritating and allows us to punish Diddy better than most characters.

Offstage is where we shine. Diddy is in serious trouble if Greninja makes him recover low and if you see the Diddy trying to recover high with Monkey Flip we can really punish him by catching him with an Up-Smash if he's close enough to the ground or a F-Air.

Of course, Diddy is still painful especially because of his infamous Up-Air, but overall this MU is not bad at all. Shurikens help disrupt Diddy a lot at a long range, we have a great grab, we can edgeguard Diddy pretty well and our advantageous state is great. Once we get Diddy in a bad position, we need to keep him like that for as long as we can and we can do that pretty nicely especially if we can read the Monkey Flips.

So going from my experience playing with plenty of Diddy players in the ladder, the MU is 50:50. We have a lot going for ourselves in this MU, but Diddy is still Diddy so it's still not going to be easy.

 

[Coffee™]

To be honest, I have quite a lot of Diddy experience thanks to Anther's Ladder and I must say, this isn't a bad MU for us.

Both characters are similar in that they get much mileage of their throws, Diddy more so but still. Greninja's amazing advantageous state makes so that if we get Diddy where we want him to, we can really wreck havoc on him. Diddy's best option for getting out of juggles in Monkey Flip, which is not a bad choice, but if you can predict a use of it you can really punish him.

Greninja's disjoints really help in this MU, but Diddy has some himself so it's pretty even in that regard. Bananas are annoying but at least our shuriken cancels them and IIRC we can't trip while grabbing someone. Greninja can also take advantage of Diddy's bananas if we manage to catch them, such as using it to set up a d-tilt combo or a Dash Attack -> F-Air. We have a great dash grab and it really helps make this MU a lot less irritating and allows us to punish Diddy better than most characters.

You actually see a lot of what I'm talking about in that recent Lea match vs Rain.
Offstage is where we shine. Diddy is in serious trouble if Greninja makes him recover low and if you see the Diddy trying to recover high with Monkey Flip we can really punish him by catching him with an Up-Smash if he's close enough to the ground or a F-Air.

Of course, Diddy is still painful especially because of his infamous Up-Air, but overall this MU is not bad at all. Shurikens help disrupt Diddy a lot at a long range, we have a great grab, we can edgeguard Diddy pretty well and our advantageous state is great. Once we get Diddy in a bad position, we need to keep him like that for as long as we can and we can do that pretty nicely especially if we can read the Monkey Flips.

So going from my experience playing with plenty of Diddy players in the ladder, the MU is 50:50. We have a lot going for ourselves in this MU, but Diddy is still Diddy so it's still not going to be easy.

Greninja does have stuff on Diddy but neutral game is extremely annoying. Greninja cannot punish Diddy's autocanelled Fair unless you read it and if spaced well he can't punish a non-fast falled Fair on shield either. That alone makes the matchup a pain in the ass as Diddy can literally throw out those moves for free and create a wall which can be really hard to deal with once mixed up with Uair and good banana placement. He also mitigates a lot of Greninja's Uair combos by DI'ing away and fastfalling with Uair so now Greninja is in the receiving side of getting punished.

Also I'm almost certain on stages with low ceilings Diddy get's guaranteed Uthrow to Uair kills around 85-110ish. Not sure of the exact range, but there were quite a few times I experienced this on stages like Town and City and Battlefield.

Personally I've approached the matchup by crouching a lot more as it helps combat his ability to just toss out Fairs but at the end of the day I feel like this matchup is way more intricate than I initially thought.

You can actually see a lot of what I'm talking about in that recent match with Consome vs Rain

 

[ephOE]

Respect the Chomp. Greninja shouldn't be shielding as often as most characters, but besides shielding the bike (and occaisonally the Waft) Greninja shouldn't have to block much from Wario. Most of Greninja's attacks extend his hurtbox (jab, F smash, Neutral B, etc.), which is dangerous against Wario's Chomp - it being a command grab.

I've played a few Wario mains and in my experience the MU is in Greninja's favor, you just really really have to respect that command grab. I've noticed a few players that like to space with Fair. The only one to give me trouble would use a fair into falling Chomp to bait a block.

Greninja is mobile enough to avoid the Waft and can knock Wario off his bike or chase his jump off of the bike with practically any of his aerials. Play smart and Wario shouldn't really be a problem. Maybe 60:40, Greninja's favor.

Something I forgot to mention: Wario does have an odd combination of weight, size, and falling speed. Despite his horizontal movement in the air, he's still somewhat easy to juggle. He's on the heavy side (same weight as Ike), but not so much that it becomes a chore to KO him or that he immensely benefits from rage like DK or Bowser. I could be completely wrong, but these attributes seem like it might leave Wario vulnerable to Up Throw > Uair at a larger % window than other characters. It might just be from quirky personal experience but Uair KOs off the top seem like a viable option.

 

[Ludiloco]

Fair into falling chomp is almost wario's entire neutral game. There's a bit more to it than that but not really. Wario's kill setups are also kind of hard to land on us with our mobility and recovery options. He have the bike in hand ready to topple off and fart on it (and you)? Pump over him onto the stage. Waiting on the stage with the bike on the ground for you to grab the ledge? Grab it and wait, just see what he does. Worst that happens is he throws his bike up and you take some minor damage.

Wario's aerial mobility can make him a bit of a pain to combo, as his DI is a little more effective than most characters. Just take your hits and don't get greedy or you'll get chomped and wafted. In neutral, respect his fair as it's almost as safe as Jigglypuff's on shield and roll punish if he tries to come down with chomp. I think 60:40 Ninja does sound about right but you have to respect Wario's kill power and speed in the air. The bike is annoying and Wario doesn't die until very late off the sides, so your best bet is to kill him off the top. Water shurikens destroy his bike, so feel free to spam them at long range in the MU, he has no way of getting past them but to jump or sit there and eat them. This will charge the waft but he's going to get it eventually so it's really no big deal. In summary, our moves come out faster than his in neutral and jab beats chomp.

This matchup isn't torture, but if you get shield happy at all you will be losing. Diddy struggles to combo us in comparison to the rest of the cast due to our vast array of aerial options. Even so, above Diddy is no place to be. Your goal in the matchup is to take the game out of neutral ASAP, meaning keeping Diddy above you or recovering. On the other end, diddy is a nice weight for being comboed by us and has no real safe options for landing other than mixing up his direction with monkey flip and b reverses. Our jab is also very good in this MU, as it either beats or clanks with most of Diddy's approaches, making him think of new ways to get in. The only thing I wouldn't suggest jabbing is a thrown banana, as it will likely net Diddy a grab. Other than that, jab beats Diddy's dash grab and monkey flip (no kick), and clanks with his dash attack and bananas (I think it trades with monkey flip kick).

We win the offstage game easily, Diddy can't effectively gimp us and we have many tools to do it to him. Back air and hydro pump completely annihilate his up b, and I haven't tested it but I feel d-tilt could be effective on monkey flip to the ledge. Downward f-tilt should definitely work. Hydro pump also seems like it would put him in a spot where he could be back aired afterwards, but again just theory smashing.

Diddy destroys us in neutral, we win easily in advantage and in edge guard scenarios, and our disadvantage is a wash with a slight nod to Diddy. I think 55:45 or 60:40 monkey seems about right.


I have a very good friend who is a Wii Fit main. This MU is just plain ugly for the trainer, and honestly I don't think there's many matchups she really wins. Sakurai really flubbed this character imo. Wii Fit is super floaty and has huge difficulty landing against an advantage-based character like Greninja. Honestly the only thing that will mess you up against WFT is her strange hitboxes and movement, and even then Greninja can duck under so many of her moves and punish accordingly out of d-tilt. So the place you really want to be is right up in Wii Fit's face, as her grab range is atrocious and she doesn't really have much out of grab anyway.

And oh man, you think Sheik has trouble killing? Outside of spikes and stage spikes, WFT has almost no kill power without deep breathing active, and even then it's nothing super impressive. One thing I will say in the trainer's favor is that you need to respect her offstage much more than other characters. Her forward special spikes if you get too close, and her up special has an annoying hitbox that can stage spike you if you're not careful. Hydro pump can deal with the latter, but I find it better to just respect the soccer ball, power shield it and wait for her ledge option. Sun Salutation is also annoying but very predictable and not nearly as devastating as getting hit with a Samus or Mega Man charge shot.

Without deep breathing active we can run circles around her on the ground and she has a hell of a hard time trying to land when we pop her up. Overall, I believe we win in almost all aspects of the MU but WFT is harder to edge guard than many characters, giving her a small chance if she can get a groove going and keep us on our toes. I'd call this 70:30 Greninja, maybe one of our easier matchups.

 

[FullMoon]

Can't see Diddy having an advantage over Greninja, his wall of F-Airs is an issue, yes, but it's not impossible to get around. I still think it's 50:50.

Also I just fought a Wario but the lag was too bad for me to really play well so I can't really say much about the MU except

Water shurikens destroy his bike, so feel free to spam them at long range in the MU, he has no way of getting past them but to jump or sit there and eat them.

Water Shuriken doesn't come even close to breaking Wario's bike, at best the fully charged one can take Wario out of it but charging shuriken while Wario is coming at you with the bike is not a very smart idea.

 

[Ludiloco]

I guess I just assumed it would because most projectiles break the bike. I guess better to FF nair on top of him then when he's coming at you with it. Good Warios will not be spamming the bike in neutral anyway, it's a nice tool for setups and combos but not a safe option to just pull out and use.

 

[ephOE]

WS will knock Wario off the bike if they hit Wario himself (SH WS), if they hit him just as he's getting on the bike, or if they're fully charged. Nair is the easiest way to knock him off the bike, Dair works as well. If the Wario player doesn't like to stick on the bike long, you can also just shield, let him jump off, and usually get a free Bair or Fair.

EDIT: Shifting Shuriken will always knock Wario off the bike since it has transcendant priority and will simply travel through everything.

 

[FullMoon]

As it was suggested to me, @Katakiri and @ItoI6 might be able to give us some input about the MK MU?